2016 NFL Coaching Carousel
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
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Are you speaking from experience here, because this is not my understanding at all. I would think that most teams would have separation between the folks in the front office who run the promotional/sales side of things (tickets, advertising, public relations, etc.) and the people who run the actual on-the-field stuff. I'd be very, very surprised if BB spent any of his time worrying about anything to do with season ticket packages or the Optum Club, but maybe I am wrong.
Anyway, in terms of the discussion at hand, from an ownership perspective I think the optimal way to have things work would be a strong front office guy first who picks a coach they can work in tandem with. The issue with letting most coaches have too much control is that very few of them will take the long view towards building a consistent winner, for very good reason since we see that coaches only really have a couple of years to establish themselves or they'll be canned. It's essentially the rift that Kraft had with Parcells way back when. Thankfully for Kraft he stumbled upon BB who shared Kraft's desire to build a consistent winner over the long term, but I think BB is more the exception than the rule and in most cases an NFL owner would be crazy to turn the keys to his franchise over to a coach, particularly an unproven one.
[QUOTE="H78, post: 2075234, member: 63214"]...People wonder what makes BB so successful? He makes ALL of the roster decisions. The team is his plan, his vision, from top to bottom. He doesn't have to navigate through someone else's opinion of who "should" make the team a winner.[/QUOTE]
With respect - what makes BB so successful is that he's the NFL coaching GOAT, and (though it's hard for me to quantify this) he's incredibly adept at being a GM as well. It's not just the span of control, it's the ability to make use of it that makes BB great. Not to rehash a debate that's already in P&G, but many folks have access to ink and paper, but that doesn't mean that they'll end up in the same conversation with Shakespeare.
With respect - what makes BB so successful is that he's the NFL coaching GOAT, and (though it's hard for me to quantify this) he's incredibly adept at being a GM as well. It's not just the span of control, it's the ability to make use of it that makes BB great. Not to rehash a debate that's already in P&G, but many folks have access to ink and paper, but that doesn't mean that they'll end up in the same conversation with Shakespeare.
Sure, but there are organizations where the GM effectively reports to the head coach (New England and Kansas City come to mind). Nick Caserio is probably doing 90+% of what a GM would do anywhere else, but Belichick has the authority to overrule him at the end of the day. Some other orgs, the GM has final authority and the head coach reports to him.
The most dysfunction comes when you have more than one head of the "football side" and put a non-football person in a position to adjudicate their disagreements and power and so you have coach and GM undermining each other and a clueless person trying to sort it out. I'm thinking of the end of the Chip Kelly era in Philly or the York / Baalke / Harbaugh triangle in SF. Snead / Fisher is similar, and of course most of what the Browns are doing. It is amazing how often this structure appears in the worst organizations.
Well said. Parcells left the Jets not much better than he found them, partly because he traded the right to draft a Hall of Fame left tackle (Orlando Pace) for a bunch of depth pieces in hopes of a quick turnaround; meanwhile, the Rams went to two Super Bowls with Pace protecting Kurt Warner's blind side. Jimmy Johnson didn't set the world on fire in Miami either.
As SN stated well, the key question is who has final say-so on personnel and draft decisions. Different organizations have used different models, and there's no reason to believe one model is structurally superior to the other (i.e., without regard to the individuals in each role). The one thing that's clear is that lack of clarity as to who's in charge is a hallmark of a poorly run organization.
Based on McDaniels' horror show in Denver, I would absolutely, positively refuse to give Josh complete control of an entire operation. He has not earned it, or shown that he can do it. If that's his ask, this process could prove interesting.
He drafted Tim Tebow in the first round. End of story.
With McDaniels likely to take a head coaching gig, who are likely candidates to replace him? I just saw Ben Volin hypothesizing that Chip Kelly could be a possibility. That seems like a hilariously bad fit.
I know Kelly is The Godfather of up tempo, but he seems completely unwilling to change his scheme to match his personnel.
There are rumors that Billy O'Brien could be on his way out of Houston at season's end, I imagine that is a possibility. However, the more likely choices would be Chad O'Shea (WR Coach) or Brian Daboll (TE Coach).
Not all rumors are of equal quality -- McCarthy and O'Brien aren't going anywhere.
I assume there are industry norms about how job searches are handled in these circumstances, but I'm a bit surprised that McD is taking three job interviews (at least) during the bye week. Assuming he's traveling for those, that's a lot of time not spent on his current job.
I assume there are industry norms about how job searches are handled in these circumstances, but I'm a bit surprised that McD is taking three job interviews (at least) during the bye week. Assuming he's traveling for those, that's a lot of time not spent on his current job.
McDaniels would have to either be a moron or have some preexisting relationship with Kroenke to take the Rams or Niners jobs. York has proven himself a complete fool in the last three seasons. And players are apparently forbidden from speaking to Kroenke during practice. These guys represent everything Kraft (or the Bowlens for that matter) does not. – meddling, short-termers who dare more about the club than the sport.
Shah is the one guy I would spend time listening to but in that case I'd be very cautious if he's attached to Bortles. Josh is going to want access to a real QB.
Shah is the one guy I would spend time listening to but in that case I'd be very cautious if he's attached to Bortles. Josh is going to want access to a real QB.
That's the only way I can see McDaniels doing it. Take Casario, trade for Jimmy and try to start Patriots West. Didn't work out great for the Chiefs or Texans though.
I don't think it's likely, but it's not impossible to imagine O'Brien leaving Houston. Remember, he tried to cut Ryan Mallett last year only to have GM Rick Smith veto that decision. The writers in Houston have continually talked about the icy relationship between the two ever since that disagreement. Secondly, the rumor has gained steam because Jay Glazer is the one pushing it. We're not talking about some Twitter egg or Incarcerated Bob.
Hard to say. Those organizations are train wrecks, but precisely because of that, they're more likely to give McD control (such as the ability to choose his GM).
To me, the Rams look a lot like the Chiefs did after the Pioli tire fire -- enough recent suckery that they will need to make a sweet offer to land a high-profile coach, but enough talent on hand to allow for a quick turnaround.
The Niners are in much worse shape, but they will absolutely have to give control and back up the Brinks truck to secure any coaching candidate who has other offers (or even the reasonable prospect of an offer a year from now). McD would likely prefer another spot, but if he doesn't have another offer, it would be hard to pass up a five-year deal from the Niners with the right to choose his GM.
I mean, if he were only worth $2 billion, would he not be able to afford Payton's ransom?
In all seriousness, maybe not. The franchise itself might be worth $1 - $1.5 billion of that $2 billion, and many more of an owner's assets might be difficult to liquidate. There is a significant difference in on-hand cash between owners that were rich when they bought the teams and owners who inherited the teams who may not be wealthy apart from owning the team.
As a (much smaller-scale) analogy, I've got a decent chunk of change in my 401K but that doesn't mean I can go out and buy a gold watch.
So, Josh is meeting with SF (York or whoever) this coming weekend, Jan. 6,7 or 8? I guess with the bye, that's OK, esp. with Josh not traveling, but I wish this stuff was put off until after the SB. Distracting. York is such a namby pamby A-hole, I can't imagine anybody wanting to work anywhere near him though.
Right, which is why I said front offices work in tandem -- on budgets, pl;ayer acquisition and everything else
There's 32 head coaching jobs. Guys (especially younger/first time guys) that want a shot aren't going to bail based on ownership.
I too wish they would institute an interviewing/hiring freeze until after the Super Bowl.
Would put everybody (teams and candidates alike) on equal footing. Push back some off-season dates if need be to make it more palatable. Hypothetically, much work is McD really putting in anyway for San Francisco before February 6th if the Pats reach the Super Bowl?
Would put everybody (teams and candidates alike) on equal footing. Push back some off-season dates if need be to make it more palatable. Hypothetically, much work is McD really putting in anyway for San Francisco before February 6th if the Pats reach the Super Bowl?
There have been 20 head coaching vacancies/hires since the start of 2014. Do you think ownership is done with firing coaches?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_head_coaches
There is zero reason for Josh to accept a situation where he cannot succeed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_head_coaches
There is zero reason for Josh to accept a situation where he cannot succeed.
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The Rams definitely have more talent, especially on defense, but the Goff situation clouds everything since a new head coach is going to sink or swim with him. Goff had very, very little talent around him this year and clearly wasn't helped much by the coaches either. But boy was he awful. You can definitely find examples of QBs who were equally bad statistically in their rookie year who went on to have good-to-great careers - Eli, McNabb, Aikman to name a few. But I wouldn't go near that Rams job unless you had a really good feeling about Goff coming out of school and you believed strongly that this year was just a perfect storm of a rookie QB being placed in a bad situation.
I will say that Kroenke is likely a good owner to work for as an NFL coach. He is a guy primarily concerned with the value of his investment who has no inclination to get involved in football decisions. A lot of Arsenal fans (his English soccer club) think he is cheap because he won't spend huge sums like other rich soccer club owners but in the NFL context he is going to spend to the cap, pay his coaches top dollar, etc.
Essentially, if you feel like you can make Goff into an above average NFL starter, you're probably not going to find a better situation than the Rams job. But that is a big if.
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Peter KIng on the 49ers situation:
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/01/02/nfl-coach-firings-playoff-wild-card-schedule-peter-king
“@CourtneyFallon_: Reporter asks if in retrospect, it was a mistake to fire Jim Harbaugh.
York: I can’t look backwards. I’m just not going to play that game.”
“@greggrosenthal: Jed York asked why he should be viewed as competent to lead a HC search”
The SF press is brutal
York: I can’t look backwards. I’m just not going to play that game.”
“@greggrosenthal: Jed York asked why he should be viewed as competent to lead a HC search”
The SF press is brutal
Even assuming Goff isn't the QB of the future, I like the LA situation better than Buffalo or (especially) San Francisco, and maybe as much as Jacksonville.
Denver and (to a lesser extent) San Diego offer the best opportunities for quick success, but I would expect the new coaches in both places to be on a short leash.
One of the Niners beat writers, Matt Maiocco, is pushing hard that the best-case scenario for the Niners is bringing in Caserio and McDaniels and trading for JimmyG.
Watching Jed York right now and one thing he said, making excuses, was all 32 teams ownerships, management are flawed. I mean, nobody's perfect but this is like the F student telling his parents, "well, the all A student got a B this time." Local 49er reporter Matt Maiocco then went through a scenario: hire Josh, he brings Caserio, they trade for Jimmy, and, boom, problems solved, nirvana. Ain't right.
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I don't know if I'd say this is "pushing hard," just that it's the first among many he discusses here
http://www.csnbayarea.com/video/maiocco-hints-possible-new-england-patriots-west-scenario-49ers
It's the most palatable option that I've seen floated so far as a niners fan, but I'm not sure why Josh would leave for the opening. With a ton of cap room and the number two pick, the opening might be slightly more attractive than it seems, but after failing in Denver he really needs to pick right when it comes to his next attempt.
That scares me. I know Patricia gets a lot of heat around here, buy he's a stable, young, and respected coach who (imo) hasn't reached his full potential yet.
How about they interview Dean Pees instead. He was a NE DC before. Same thing.
How about they interview Dean Pees instead. He was a NE DC before. Same thing.
I'd hate for the Patriots to lose Patricia, perhaps even more than McDaniels. It feels like MP is just hitting his stride, and - for both his and the Patriots' sake - more time working with BB would be beneficial.
edit: yeah, also what KFP says.
edit: yeah, also what KFP says.
The silver lining is that San Diego is the only place where I think he fits this time around -- DEN, BUF, JAX and LA are likely to hire offensive-minded guys, and if the Niners are going to give someone FU money (which is the only way Patricia would take the job), I think it will be to someone like McD who has already been a head coach.
If McDaniels or Patricia takes that 49ers job, they are playing with career fire. Knowing full well that there are only 32 HC jobs in the NFL, its still a bad decision to work for an ownership group that has proven to be incompetent, meddling and unsupportive of its employees.
Its a recipe for failure and unless these guys care about only the money, its a bad spot for anyone with long term coaching career aspirations.
Its a recipe for failure and unless these guys care about only the money, its a bad spot for anyone with long term coaching career aspirations.
Any job is risky. You could get pushed out after just one or two years in a place like Denver or San Diego if things don't go your way, and there's no way those teams will give you the sort of control that I think the Niners will have to give their next coach.
If the Niners let you pick the GM, and you get a 5-year deal (or longer), it's worth the risk if you like some of their pieces.
Of course, I doubt the Niners will make those sorts of concessions to land Patricia, and I think McD will have a better offer, so I agree that those two guys won't land in the Bay Area -- but I think you'll be surprised by the quality of coach they do get.
I really doubt any Patriot employee is going to leave to work for Niners ownership, at least if they consult Belichick about going to work for a crappy, meddlesome owner.
I guess the Caserio/McD/Jimmy G combo package IF you assume Caserio gets some kind of reliable guarantee York will STFU might be worthwhile. But probably not---bad owners very rarely make it workable for the management.
I guess the Caserio/McD/Jimmy G combo package IF you assume Caserio gets some kind of reliable guarantee York will STFU might be worthwhile. But probably not---bad owners very rarely make it workable for the management.
Tim Kawakami points out Jed York say today the one lesson he's learned is the GM and coach need to get along--yet the 49ers won three NFC titles in a row while Baalke and Harbaugh were hating each other.
In fact, iirc, Uncle Eddie and Bill Walsh pretty much hated each other, but Eddie, to his credit, never carried out his constant threats to fire Walsh.
In fact, iirc, Uncle Eddie and Bill Walsh pretty much hated each other, but Eddie, to his credit, never carried out his constant threats to fire Walsh.
I will be very surprised. The word is out on Jed. Way out. The guy helping with the hiring, Paraag Marathe is a nice guy, but his name has been dragged through the mud in the whole loss of Harbaugh thing and shocking crash of the team. He never played a down in his life, if that matters. You mention good pieces, but who are they? The team is decimated by early retirement, including some shockers of not that old stars like Willis, Borland and Anthony Smith. Why is this an attractive job? The great 49er heritage? The new stadium? I don't get it.
Now watch Josh, Nick and Jimmy end up there. I suppose I could get into having a second team again.
I think the AFC West is going to be a really tough division for a while based on the young talent in the division and the fact that Oakland, KC and Denver all have very good GMs. I don't see San Diego as a place for quick success at all, and Denver and Oakland both showed this year that you can have a pretty good year and wind up a wild card or out of the playoffs in the AFC West.
Jason Cole @JasonColeBR 10m10 minutes ago
Informal poll of 7 NFL execs ranking current open jobs:
1. Broncos (unanimous)
2. Jaguars
3. Chargers
4. Rams
5. 49ers
6. Bills
Top three are clear to me, although I might put SD above JAX. Bottom three are also clear to me, with BUF being the worst job opening at the moment.
Informal poll of 7 NFL execs ranking current open jobs:
1. Broncos (unanimous)
2. Jaguars
3. Chargers
4. Rams
5. 49ers
6. Bills
Top three are clear to me, although I might put SD above JAX. Bottom three are also clear to me, with BUF being the worst job opening at the moment.
I can't see it. They are leaving one of the best run organizations in the NFL for one of, if not the absolute worst. Aside from horrible, dishonest ownership, the team's stadium has some well documented issues that haven't yet been addressed and a their roster is, as others have pointed out, barren of talent.
This spot is almost certainly set up for failure and anyone taking the job is doing so for the money. McDaniels, in particular, has something to prove and if he bombs out in San Francisco, even with their known issues, he will likely set his career back significantly.
It says volumes that the 49ers -- about to have their fourth head coach in four seasons -- are still believed among those in the league to be a better landing spot than Buffalo