https://twitter.com/Jared_Carrabis/status/493834007420096513
Holy crap, that's an unprecedented quartet of stalwarts.
Holy crap, that's an unprecedented quartet of stalwarts.
2014 Red Sox HOF class: Pedro, Nomar, Clemens, Castliglione
- Thread starter mabrowndog
- Start date
Pedro and Castiglione will get in. Clemens is still loathed too much, and I'm not close to being sold on Nomar deserving that honor. Hall of Really Good? Sure. 1700 hits in 14 seasons ain't gonna cut it.
Yaz4Ever said:
I think you're confused. All four are going into the Red Sox' OWN Hall of Fame. With plaques at Fenway and stuff.
This is the Red Sox HOF, not the Baseball HOF. You do realize that, right? They are all Red Sox Hall of Famers.Yaz4Ever said:
The qualifications for the Red Sox Hall of Fame are somewhat fewer less than those for Cooperstown. If Jerry Remy's in as a second baseman, Nomar's in as a shortstop.
I guess the date is news, but the class was announced in February.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/81705-red-sox-hof-class-of-14-clemens-pedro-nomar-and-joe-castiglione/
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/81705-red-sox-hof-class-of-14-clemens-pedro-nomar-and-joe-castiglione/
Topic for debate. Is this Red Sox HOF pitching duo better than any MLB HOF pitching duo inducted together?
I'm going to go ahead and submit that it is. Although arguments could be heard for the Walter Johnson & Christy Matthewson duo in the inaugural MLB HOF class. I'm not seeing any other pairs that I think are particularly close though.
I'm going to go ahead and submit that it is. Although arguments could be heard for the Walter Johnson & Christy Matthewson duo in the inaugural MLB HOF class. I'm not seeing any other pairs that I think are particularly close though.
jscola85 said:
Right on with my thinking. Clemens, Pedro, and Maddux all have a seat at the "Best there ever was" discussion table. Glavine, while a phenomenal pitcher by any metric, is a distant 4th in that grouping and knocks that duo down below Clemens-Pedro.
Hendu for Kutch said:
Pedro and Maddux dominated during the steroid era, Clemens has his own PED question marks so as good as he was I would put Clemens well behind Maddux and Pedro who were ridiculous during their peaks. Clemens is still well ahead of Glavine though.
You can certainly ding Clemens for the PEDs, but based solely on results I can't really see an argument for Maddux over Clemens.
Clemens has the better ERA, FIP, xFIP, SIERA, ERA+, bWAR, fWAR, BAA, K%, K-BB %, IP/GS, CG, SHO, W%, Cy Youngs, top 10 CYA finishes, MVPs, All-Star selections, rings, JAWS leaderboad ranking...Clemens even has better hitting numbers in all 3 triple slash categories, believe it or not.
Maddux has a better BB% and one more career W (in 33 more starts). That's about it. I'd love to hear an argument, but I just can't see it. Again, only results considered - not PED effects on them.
Clemens has the better ERA, FIP, xFIP, SIERA, ERA+, bWAR, fWAR, BAA, K%, K-BB %, IP/GS, CG, SHO, W%, Cy Youngs, top 10 CYA finishes, MVPs, All-Star selections, rings, JAWS leaderboad ranking...Clemens even has better hitting numbers in all 3 triple slash categories, believe it or not.
Maddux has a better BB% and one more career W (in 33 more starts). That's about it. I'd love to hear an argument, but I just can't see it. Again, only results considered - not PED effects on them.
The ceremony is underway on NESN. Dick Flavin read a tribute poem, and now Orsillo is introducing various dignitaries.
John Harrington, Bill Monbouquette, Tommy Harper, Rico Petrocelli, Jim Lonborg, El Tiante, Dewey, JimEd, et al.
John Harrington, Bill Monbouquette, Tommy Harper, Rico Petrocelli, Jim Lonborg, El Tiante, Dewey, JimEd, et al.
Seabass177 said:
Weird that they're not streaming it. And a massive failure, frankly.
Joe Castiglione's the first inductee.
Dave O'Brien joining Orsillo & Castig on stage in giant leather easy chairs. Joe truly gracious towards the other three inductees. Calls Nomar the best 5-tool player he ever saw wearing a Sox uniform, calls Clemens a "great friend" and says "I'll be there when you get inducted into Cooperstown, as you should be", and calls Pedro "the most charismatic ball player" he ever covered while thanking him for his generosity to his family (helping Joe's daughter with Spanish, and assisting his son during a trip to the DR).
O'Brien with a great line. Says Joe's an even better human being than he is a broadcaster. Then he turns to Orsillo and says "Can't say that about you, Don" as the place explodes in laughter.
Joe now being asked about growing up a die-hard Yankee fan. "We all learn from the error of our ways."
Discussing other former partners now: Ken Coleman, Bob Starr, Trupe...
Joe takes a moment to cite longtime Sox PR director and club historian Dick Bresciani, who's currently hospitalized. "Bresh" also narrated the career highlight clip they just showed.
Joe now being asked about growing up a die-hard Yankee fan. "We all learn from the error of our ways."
Discussing other former partners now: Ken Coleman, Bob Starr, Trupe...
Joe takes a moment to cite longtime Sox PR director and club historian Dick Bresciani, who's currently hospitalized. "Bresh" also narrated the career highlight clip they just showed.
Clemens up next.
Orsillo asks him "Who was your Roger Clemens growing up? Who did you look up to?"
Clemens cites his mother & grandmother, Nolan Ryan, meeting Don Drysdale, watching Bob Gibson. Had some great pitching coaches.
Getting choked up now as he recalls scout Danny Doyle following him and eventually drafting & signing him. Recalls being brought to Fenway as a 21-yr-old to see Eck vs Jim Palmer. "I walked into Fenway, and the Green Monster hit me right in the face."
Reminiscing over being invited to the White House and meeting Reagan plus Donald Regan, GHW Bush & Tip O'Neill. Aides were trying to pull Reagan away for other pressing business, but the prez said "Hold on, I want to talk baseball with these guys."
"Johnny Pesky made me a lot better, and a lot more comfortable on the mound. Freddy Fungo would hit me comebackers and grounders out there. Miss him."
Recalling meeting Yaz & Williams along with Rice & Evans. Ted asked him, "If you had to face me, kid, what would you throw me?" Roger was too nervous to answer, so Ted said, "It better be your slider, kid, cuz I could definitely hit your fastball."
Now discussing a brawl vs the Rangers that took place the day before Father's Day....
and now NESN's feed craps out. Just awesome.
Orsillo asks him "Who was your Roger Clemens growing up? Who did you look up to?"
Clemens cites his mother & grandmother, Nolan Ryan, meeting Don Drysdale, watching Bob Gibson. Had some great pitching coaches.
Getting choked up now as he recalls scout Danny Doyle following him and eventually drafting & signing him. Recalls being brought to Fenway as a 21-yr-old to see Eck vs Jim Palmer. "I walked into Fenway, and the Green Monster hit me right in the face."
Reminiscing over being invited to the White House and meeting Reagan plus Donald Regan, GHW Bush & Tip O'Neill. Aides were trying to pull Reagan away for other pressing business, but the prez said "Hold on, I want to talk baseball with these guys."
"Johnny Pesky made me a lot better, and a lot more comfortable on the mound. Freddy Fungo would hit me comebackers and grounders out there. Miss him."
Recalling meeting Yaz & Williams along with Rice & Evans. Ted asked him, "If you had to face me, kid, what would you throw me?" Roger was too nervous to answer, so Ted said, "It better be your slider, kid, cuz I could definitely hit your fastball."
Now discussing a brawl vs the Rangers that took place the day before Father's Day....
and now NESN's feed craps out. Just awesome.
Roger: "I'll say this about Nomar, during the short time we played together, he always came to the ball park ready to play."
"With Pedro, during the 100-year event here at Fenway, we had the big dinner and when he sat down it got real quiet. Tek & Gedman were there, and we had a chance to talk about our pitching. Loved that."
Roger was one of the first pitchers to warm up by playing long toss pre-game due to the smallness of the Fenway bullpens. "Now you see everybody doing it."
Clemens says he "stole Dewey's bat from the [first] 20-strikeout game because he hit a big HR for me. Got it mounted on the wall now."
"With Pedro, during the 100-year event here at Fenway, we had the big dinner and when he sat down it got real quiet. Tek & Gedman were there, and we had a chance to talk about our pitching. Loved that."
Roger was one of the first pitchers to warm up by playing long toss pre-game due to the smallness of the Fenway bullpens. "Now you see everybody doing it."
Clemens says he "stole Dewey's bat from the [first] 20-strikeout game because he hit a big HR for me. Got it mounted on the wall now."
Here comes Nomar. Lou Merloni joining him & Orsillo in the easy chairs.
"Not many of the inductees at Cooperstown get to say that they were inducted into a nation, and I am so blessed to be inducted into *this* nation."
Side note: Nomar's dad looks like the Dos Equis "Most Interesting Man In The World" in his unbuttoned pastel peach dress shirt & white sport coat.
Merloni "taking credit" for Nomar's range to his right, saying that when he played 3B in the minors he couldn't get to any of them. "Because of me, he had a lot of time to practice on those balls."
Nomar remembering his first career hit -- a HR in Oakland.
Nomar on Ted (paraphrasing): "Ted called me and asked me a whole bunch of questions about hitting. Afterward Dan Duquette told me Ted had said I was the only one who'd ever answered every one of the questions right. So then I had to call my Dad and tell him 'Dad, you answered every one of Ted Williams hitting questions correctly!' since I'd learned everything about the game from him."
On playing at Fenway: "If you run hard to first base, they'll love you."
On hitting: "I was aggressive. A walk wasn't going to do me any good. A lot of people would tell me I'd never get anywhere swinging at the first pitch, but it worked out pretty well for me."
"All those dents on the wall at Fenway were made by the greats who came before me. I can't believe I'm here with them now."
"Not many of the inductees at Cooperstown get to say that they were inducted into a nation, and I am so blessed to be inducted into *this* nation."
Side note: Nomar's dad looks like the Dos Equis "Most Interesting Man In The World" in his unbuttoned pastel peach dress shirt & white sport coat.
Merloni "taking credit" for Nomar's range to his right, saying that when he played 3B in the minors he couldn't get to any of them. "Because of me, he had a lot of time to practice on those balls."
Nomar remembering his first career hit -- a HR in Oakland.
Nomar on Ted (paraphrasing): "Ted called me and asked me a whole bunch of questions about hitting. Afterward Dan Duquette told me Ted had said I was the only one who'd ever answered every one of the questions right. So then I had to call my Dad and tell him 'Dad, you answered every one of Ted Williams hitting questions correctly!' since I'd learned everything about the game from him."
On playing at Fenway: "If you run hard to first base, they'll love you."
On hitting: "I was aggressive. A walk wasn't going to do me any good. A lot of people would tell me I'd never get anywhere swinging at the first pitch, but it worked out pretty well for me."
"All those dents on the wall at Fenway were made by the greats who came before me. I can't believe I'm here with them now."
All hail Pedro.
Orsillo reading, "The New York Times said he humbled the Yankees like no one ever before."
Nomar will join him for the on-stage chat.
"Welcome everybody to Pedro's Continuation of the Parade!" God, I fucking love this guy.
Orsillo asks Pedro about the 17-K outing at Yankee Stadium: "The first thing I remember was Joe Kerrigan getting mad at me for not attending the pitchers' meeting. I was cranky that day, and we'd just had the long flight back from Seattle. So I just went out there really angry about that."
Nomar: "For anyone to get a standing ovation there in a Red Sox uniform, you know he was lights-out special."
Pedro: "I wasn't expecting to strike out 17, but I always wanted to beat them. I just went at it with pure intimidation. When Chili Davis put me in the 10th row of the bleachers in the 1st inning, I just picked up from there and didn't let go."
Pedro's getting two bronze plaques today, one of them in honor of that 17-K game, an all-time venue record for any Yankee opponent.
Orsillo reading, "The New York Times said he humbled the Yankees like no one ever before."
Nomar will join him for the on-stage chat.
"Welcome everybody to Pedro's Continuation of the Parade!" God, I fucking love this guy.
Orsillo asks Pedro about the 17-K outing at Yankee Stadium: "The first thing I remember was Joe Kerrigan getting mad at me for not attending the pitchers' meeting. I was cranky that day, and we'd just had the long flight back from Seattle. So I just went out there really angry about that."
Nomar: "For anyone to get a standing ovation there in a Red Sox uniform, you know he was lights-out special."
Pedro: "I wasn't expecting to strike out 17, but I always wanted to beat them. I just went at it with pure intimidation. When Chili Davis put me in the 10th row of the bleachers in the 1st inning, I just picked up from there and didn't let go."
Pedro's getting two bronze plaques today, one of them in honor of that 17-K game, an all-time venue record for any Yankee opponent.
Now Big Papi joins the stage. This ought to be superb.
"My compadre, you look great!" says David.
"My compadre, you look great!" says David.
Pedro on his Sox HOF induction: "It isn't as important as bringing the trophy to Boston and handing it to the fans right off the bus, but it's humbling. It's exciting. It's crazy. But it wouldn't have happened if not for all the people that were around me. My father who's passed away. My family. My wife. My teammates. All the fans. The motivational spirit you have because you were dragging a whole country with you, people flying in from all over the country to see us play, even the negativity of Shaughnessy about that curse."
"This is my most important award since my Dad passed away, so I dedicate this to him."
Pedro now running down a list of behind the scenes people who helped him out. Billy Broadbent in the video room. "Roger, that's where I found most of the information about you."
Pedro to Roger: "I was a huge fan of you as a teenager when you were the flamethrower at the U of Texas. I wanted to imitate you, I wanted to be like you. I stole some of your mechanics, which were the best in the game for a right-handed power pitcher."
Pedro to Nomar: "Thank you for keeping me relaxed, helping to see the games from another point of view, and helping me understand Boston. But I'm not going to forgive you for grabbing me out of the clubhouse to be the rally monkey, then after we got 7 or 8 runs in that game you tied me to the post."
Pedro to Tommy Harper: "You were the first one I met when I came into the airport. It was freezing cold, it was NOT Dominican weather, and he's wearing a short sleeved shirt."
"This is my most important award since my Dad passed away, so I dedicate this to him."
Pedro now running down a list of behind the scenes people who helped him out. Billy Broadbent in the video room. "Roger, that's where I found most of the information about you."
Pedro to Roger: "I was a huge fan of you as a teenager when you were the flamethrower at the U of Texas. I wanted to imitate you, I wanted to be like you. I stole some of your mechanics, which were the best in the game for a right-handed power pitcher."
Pedro to Nomar: "Thank you for keeping me relaxed, helping to see the games from another point of view, and helping me understand Boston. But I'm not going to forgive you for grabbing me out of the clubhouse to be the rally monkey, then after we got 7 or 8 runs in that game you tied me to the post."
Pedro to Tommy Harper: "You were the first one I met when I came into the airport. It was freezing cold, it was NOT Dominican weather, and he's wearing a short sleeved shirt."
Ortiz on Pedro: "I bumped into my compadre in a restaurant in the DR after I got released by the Twins. He said 'Let me make some calls.' Then a day or two later, I was on the Red Sox."
I never knew that.
I never knew that.
If NESN were smart, they'd have a show "conversations w/Pedro" where Pedro has a guests and just keeps talking.
Pedro on the Dominican Republic: "You don't require a lot to play baseball there. A stick, your sister's doll head like I used to use, a pair of socks rolled up. I think today you'll see a lot of cars dragging pieces of refrigerators there because I got this award today. That's what they do down there, even after we won the World Series, they celebrate with any loud pieces of metal they can find. So this honor goes to the people of the Dominican as well."
Ortiz, same question: "The only difference between playing a game here and playing a game there is the weather. The fans are really fanatic about the game, just like back home. In Minnesota in the Metrodome it was like playing in a cage. But you come to Fenway and see the green grass and the fans right on top of you, even the ones who yell 'You suck!', you fall in love with it. The fans always appreciate when you go out there and try your best. It's like playing at home. If you don't get the job done they'll let you know -- even your momma."
Orsillo asking Pedro about the '99 All-Star Game: "I still get goose bumps. When I was getting ready for that game, knowing I needed to perform at home, everything was so bright. All the flashing [camera] lights. But I wasn't aware of how big it was, how important it was. Nomar and I were the two members that had that pressure of doing it for the Boston fans. But then they announce the 100 All-Century players, the best ones ever, and they all go to hug Ted Williams, the electricity would not go away. I also remember the three planes, probably the lowest they ever flew over Fenway Park. At the end, when I got the MVP in the game, it was nothing. I mean, Ted Williams autographed a program for me. *That* was my trophy, my highlight. My pitching? That was normal." [smiling & winking on that last comment]
Ortiz, same question: "The only difference between playing a game here and playing a game there is the weather. The fans are really fanatic about the game, just like back home. In Minnesota in the Metrodome it was like playing in a cage. But you come to Fenway and see the green grass and the fans right on top of you, even the ones who yell 'You suck!', you fall in love with it. The fans always appreciate when you go out there and try your best. It's like playing at home. If you don't get the job done they'll let you know -- even your momma."
Orsillo asking Pedro about the '99 All-Star Game: "I still get goose bumps. When I was getting ready for that game, knowing I needed to perform at home, everything was so bright. All the flashing [camera] lights. But I wasn't aware of how big it was, how important it was. Nomar and I were the two members that had that pressure of doing it for the Boston fans. But then they announce the 100 All-Century players, the best ones ever, and they all go to hug Ted Williams, the electricity would not go away. I also remember the three planes, probably the lowest they ever flew over Fenway Park. At the end, when I got the MVP in the game, it was nothing. I mean, Ted Williams autographed a program for me. *That* was my trophy, my highlight. My pitching? That was normal." [smiling & winking on that last comment]
All current Sox HOFers in attendance now on stage as Orsillo has the new inductees join them for pics. And that concludes the ceremony.
mabrowndog said:
Just wanted to come back to this. Has anyone else here ever heard this anecdote? That it was Pedro who was the impetus for the club signing Ortiz, not the research & due diligence by Epstein and his staff for ferreting out this diamond in the rough?
Thank you so much for recapping it. My annoying non baseball fan husband who works nights, just woke up and changed the channel in the middle of Pedro and Papi.
I definitely recall this anecdote, I'm at work and can't hunt down where I originally read it, but I recall it being a long time ago--maybe something that got churned up by all the '04 avalanche of coverage, but it was out there.mabrowndog said:
edit--that said, I think the story is a bit of column a/ column b--they were looking at him anyway after being released, but Pedro's vouching for him/ calling the FO caused them to jump a bit quicker. I also recall an anecdote that SiaS was interested on some level and that the Pedro element excited Ortiz and made him want to be in BOS.