No, and I just re-read "Feeding the Monster;" it was not reported that way in Seth's book.mabrowndog said:
And thanks for the great reporting. Much appreciated.
2014 Red Sox HOF class: Pedro, Nomar, Clemens, Castliglione
- Thread starter mabrowndog
- Start date
And thanks for the great reporting. Much appreciated.
https://twitter.com/45PedroMartinez/status/499975246167158784
Pedro Martinez @45PedroMartinez 31m
I thank God for this blessed day and I would like to dedicate this day to my father Paulino Jaime and my fans!
Pedro Martinez @45PedroMartinez 31m
I thank God for this blessed day and I would like to dedicate this day to my father Paulino Jaime and my fans!
mabrowndog, first of all, thank you for posting all of those quotes. Some of them gave me chills. To answer your question...this past Tuesday night I watched Epix HD's profile of Ortiz, which I think originally aired a month ago. He talked about it at length. The special was pretty good and included some early video footage of Ortiz as well as tracing pretty much his whole career, his life in the DR then and now, the first and third WS, his role in Boston Strong, and more. My only quibble was that it was around 20 minutes too long. (It was produced by his agent Fernando Cuza, btw.)mabrowndog said:
This was great to read - thank you so much mabrowndog for the reporting. I too had never heard that Pedro/Ortiz story. As if I didn't love Pedro enough already...
Pedro vs. Clemens. One game to win it all. Who do you take?
Clemens' 1996 20k game against Detroit. 9 ip, 5 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 20 k, 97 game score (espn)
Clemens' 1998 18k game against KC. 9 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 18 k, 99 game score (espn)
Pedro's 1999 17k game against NY. 9 ip, 1 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 17 k, 98 game score (espn)
Pedro's 2000 15k game against Bal. 9 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 15 k, 98 game score (espn)
Best playoff games:
Clemens' 2000 ALCS game 4 vs Sea: 9.0 ip, 1 h, 0 r, 0 er, 2 bb, 15 k
Clemens' 2000 WS game 2 vs. NYM: 8.0 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 9 k
Pedro's 1999 ALDS game 5 vs Cle (injured back and all): 6.0 ip, 0 h, 0 r, 0 er, 3 bb, 8 k
Pedro's 2004 WS game against StL: 7.0 ip, 3 h, 0 r, 0 er, 2 bb, 6 k
Pedro is my favorite all-time player. Which guy would you want not for a career or not for a single season, but for one game, for all the marbles? Picture each man at his absolute very best.
Clemens' 1996 20k game against Detroit. 9 ip, 5 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 20 k, 97 game score (espn)
Clemens' 1998 18k game against KC. 9 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 18 k, 99 game score (espn)
Pedro's 1999 17k game against NY. 9 ip, 1 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 17 k, 98 game score (espn)
Pedro's 2000 15k game against Bal. 9 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 15 k, 98 game score (espn)
Best playoff games:
Clemens' 2000 ALCS game 4 vs Sea: 9.0 ip, 1 h, 0 r, 0 er, 2 bb, 15 k
Clemens' 2000 WS game 2 vs. NYM: 8.0 ip, 2 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 9 k
Pedro's 1999 ALDS game 5 vs Cle (injured back and all): 6.0 ip, 0 h, 0 r, 0 er, 3 bb, 8 k
Pedro's 2004 WS game against StL: 7.0 ip, 3 h, 0 r, 0 er, 2 bb, 6 k
Pedro is my favorite all-time player. Which guy would you want not for a career or not for a single season, but for one game, for all the marbles? Picture each man at his absolute very best.
Nice find. This is almost definitely what I read and referenced in my post earlier.mt8thsw9th said:
Why Don Zimmer is a member of the Red Sox Hall of Fame I don't understand. And that Jim Woods is not makes it worse.
This is not even close. Pedro by a mile. Why? At his peak he was incredible, even under pressure and in the playoffs. Clemens never won the big, come from behind game for us ever in the playoffs. '86...'88 and '90, Dave Stewart beating him...in the late 90s he never really pitched his team out of a bind. Pedro was smart enough and centered enough even when he didn't have it all, he kept things close. The biggest tragedy is the rest of the teams behind him peaked 5 years after he did. I'm so very glad he got a ring with the sox. He deserved it 10 times over.ivanvamp said:
I had the great pleasure of being in Cleveland in grad school in the late '90s and watching him carve up those great offensive Indians teams like a turkey. Even a sellout house screaming at him never rattled him.
This is a good lesson for folks concerned about an outfield logjam in 2015. The Sox already had traded for Giambi and claimed Millar off waivers (though that wasn't finalized until later), but that didn't stop them from adding a third 1B/DH bat in Ortiz. It took them a little while to figure out Giambi was cooked (at 28!) and Ortiz should be playing every day, but eventually it worked out pretty well.BornToRun said:
Super Nomario said:
Don't forget that they signed Mueller while still having Hillenbrand on the roster too. It really took the Hillenbrand trade AND the Giambi injury to open the door for Ortiz to get regular playing time. Millar and Giambi got time in the OF to make things work...and we thought having to shoehorn Carp into the lineup once or twice a week was awkward.
It was really the epitome of throwing it all against the wall and seeing what stuck.
glasspusher said:
This is kind of a weird qualifier, but I'll bite.
I will say, if it's looking at their prime, who I'd rather have, I'd very likely say Pedro because he was just insanely good, but using your parameters:
"[SIZE=12.222222328186035px]Clemens never won the big, come from behind game for us ever in the playoffs."[/SIZE]
If Pedro is the bar to clear, then we have to actually look at these types of games he started for the Red Sox:
Pedro:
ALDS game 5, 2003: 7IP, 7H, 3ER, 1BB, 6K, 100 pitches / decision: W
ALCS game 7, 2003: 7.1IP, 10H, 5 ER, 1BB, 8K, 123 pitches / no decision / team loss
ALCS game 5, 2004: 6IP, 7H, 4ER, 5BB, 6K, 111 pitches / no decision / team win
Clemens:
ALCS game 7, 1986: 7IP, 4H, 1ER, 1BB, 3K, 92 pitches / decision: W
WS game 6, 1986: 7IP, 4H, 1ER, 2BB, 8K, 134 pitches / no decision / team loss
Clemens had a total of two of these games, and Pedro three. Pedro put up a 5.31 ERA, was Grady'ed in one game, and was bailed by Ortiz/Roberts/bullpen in one. Clemens had a 1.29 ERA, and was McNamara'ed (or Stanley'ed, or Schiraldi'ed in one--unless people think he should have gone back out at 134 pitches). Pedro was likely pitching with a compromised shoulder; Clemens pitched game 7 of the ALCS coming off a 143 pitch start, and according to old friend Murray Chass in an article prior to the World Series, pitched his third straight start on 3 days rest, battling a virus.
Pedro is a minor legend due to his Game 5 ALDS performance against the Indians, coming back from his shortened start in game 1 of the series. Clemens never really had a similar chance with the Red Sox. I suppose the closest for him was in 2005 when Clemens got knocked out of game 2, and got the win in relief in game 4 on 2 days rest pitching 3 innings of scoreless relief. Point Pedro. Pedro also won his head-to-head matchup against Clemens when Roger was in the shower.
Overall Pedro's teams were 6-8 in his postseason starts (3.52 ERA vs 2.91 career total), and Clemens' teams 17-17 (3.81 ERA vs 3.11 career total- I can't get ERA+ for this, sorry).
Pedro's best supporting casts were certainly past his prime, but overall he had much better supporting casts. His teams won 56% of their games, while Clemens' teams won 52% of their games (and Pedro never had to pitcher for teams as bad as the 1992-1994 clubs, when Clemens posted a 144 ERA+). It sucked that they didn't have 1999-2000 Pedro in 2003 and 2004, but he unfortunately started to fall off once the H/L/W regime surrounded him with some depth.
Basically, it comes down to the fact that wanting peak Pedro over peak Clemens in one game is a perfectly cromulent choice, and is pretty likely the right choice, but using the playoff/big game argument hurts the argument a bit because for Clemens' postseason deficiencies, Pedro wasn't close to his peak, dominant self in his playoff career.
In a one game playoff in the middle of the season? Pedro every single day. It's murkier when you bring actual postseason performance into it, and likely Pedro, but not "nowhere close" by any stretch.
glasspusher said:
As I said, Pedro is my all-time favorite player so naturally I'm sympathetic to your argument. But it's factually incorrect. Clemens won a LOT of big games. Look at my earlier post and look at their best postseason performances. Clemens' best postseason games were unbelievable. He also had some bad ones, as did Pedro.
I'm talking about the pitcher at his peak, not at his nadir.
FWIW, here are their respective career stats in the World Series:
Clemens: 8 g, 3-0, 2.37 era, 0.99 whip, 8.9 k/9
Pedro: 3 g, 1-2, 3.71 era, 1.06 whip, 10.1 k/9
Hard to say that, on the biggest stage there is, that Pedro outperformed Clemens.
Both are inner circle all-time greats. I'm having a hard time separating the two when you're talking about picking one over the other *on that pitcher's very best day*.
Driving home I"m pretty sure 98.5 had this in their news flash and left Castig off. I was only half paying attention, but 99% sure they mentioned Pedro/Nomar/Clemens and that was it. Anyone else notice this today?
jose melendez said:
No, this is where you remind everyone that two of Pedro's three WS games listed above was with the Philadelphia Phillies, after they signed him mid-season.
I was at Safeco Field when Clemens 1-hit the M's in the 2000 ALCS, striking out 15.
I still want peak Pedro pitching my must-win game.
I still want peak Pedro pitching my must-win game.
mt8thsw9th said:
I'd say a fairer comparison would be Peak Pedro to Peak Clemens (non PED)- like 1995-2000 Pedro to 1986-1990 Clemens for the playoffs.
Pedro was indeed 1-2 in the WS, but those two losses were to the Yanks in 2009, when he was on fumes at best. He never had an "assisted" second career.
Funny in 2004, if Pedro had started either games 1 or 3 in the ALCS he would have had more run support.
Agreed, having a manager who didn't ride him hard all season would have him in better shape in the post season.
I was at the game in 1999 in the Jake, the start after his 17 strikeout performance in The Toilet. He had 2 on and 2 out in the bottom of the 7th, a wild pitch to Robbie Alomar, went to a 3-0 count on him with men on 2nd and 3rd and proceeded to strike him out swinging with a sellout crowd screaming at him. If I had to pick Clemens' best postseason performance under pressure I'd go with 2001 WS game 7 against Schilling.
When the Sox brought the latest WS Trophy to Nova Scotia this past June, Dr. Charles told many great inside stories including the part Pedro played in getting the Sox to sign David Ortiz. When Pedro's request was made Theo said; " We already have a first baseman and a DH." LL replied that " when the best pitcher of your generation makes a recommendation, we had better listen."
No one pitcher owned Pedro like Dave Stewart owned Roger.
Plus, Pedro way outpitched Roger in Game 7 in 2003...and would have bested him in their biggest head to head meeting if Gump hadn't shown his true colors at the worst possible time.
Pedro all the way.
When I first heard that Roger was going in the same day as Pedro, I thought it was wrong and that Pedro should have the spot light all to himself. I could not have been more wrong. What a day. The Dentist takes a lot of crap, most of it undeserved in my book. Yesterday was a good example of just the right touch in every way.
Plus, Pedro way outpitched Roger in Game 7 in 2003...and would have bested him in their biggest head to head meeting if Gump hadn't shown his true colors at the worst possible time.
Pedro all the way.
When I first heard that Roger was going in the same day as Pedro, I thought it was wrong and that Pedro should have the spot light all to himself. I could not have been more wrong. What a day. The Dentist takes a lot of crap, most of it undeserved in my book. Yesterday was a good example of just the right touch in every way.
glasspusher said:
For what it's worth, I never said comparing postseason lines was a good idea, I was just replying to your post critically. The crux of your argument was a small sample, but even in that small sample Clemens had pitched better, so I was giving you an opportunity to move the goalposts to where you see fit. I also never brought up Pedro's WS performance in 2009.
"[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Funny in 2004, if Pedro had started either games 1 or 3 in the ALCS he would have had more run support."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]All pitchers would have better run support if they pitched in games in which their team scored more runs.[/SIZE]
"[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Agreed, having a manager who didn't ride him hard all season would have him in better shape in the post season."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Who is this in reference to? [/SIZE]
TheoShmeo said:
How does a pitcher own a pitcher? Pitchers pitch to the lineups. That the Athletics tended to have his number, and they usually matched up Stewart against Clemens, what likely has a stronger correlation? Trot Nixon owned Clemens, and it had nothing to do with who was pitching for the Red Sox in all likelihood. The whole concept of pitchers "outdueling" each other seems like old-timey sportswriter nonsense.
If you're going to subscribe to the theory Stewart "owned" Clemens, shouldn't you give credit to a starting pitcher whenever the other gets shelled by his lineup? Hell, we're at the point where FIP and xFIP are relied upon because the limitations pitchers have on controlling balls in play, so I hope one day we can realize a pitcher doesn't have control over his own hitters or the opposing starter. I know Clemens stirs up emotions in some people, but that's not really an excuse to say goofy shit like 'he lost to a pitcher'.
That's fair, but I am 100% convinced that Roger was well aware of his record against Stewart and it impacted him psychologically. I think most of us who are old enough to have watched Roger closely will attest to the fact that there were times when Roger could not harness his emotions in big moments - you could see it in his face, his body language and, often, in his results. Or sometimes in a screaming match with Terry Cooney. Maybe it would have been different if McNamara hadn't shamefully passed the buck after the Game 6 debacle and he hadn't had that hanging over him after 1986, but Roger Clemens often shrank in the big moments. To the point where most people preferred Bruce Hurst in a big game and virtually anyone who knew Roger's track record knew exactly what was going to happen in Game 3 of the 1999 ALCS.
Pedro Martinez, by comparison, was an assassin. Plain and simple. I know that Roger Clemens had some great postseason moments. So did Karl Malone. To me, the idea that given a choice someone would place the ball in "peak Roger Clemens" hands instead of "peak Pedro Martinez's" in a big moment is laughable.
Has it been mentioned Clemens was a really good post season pitcher after he started juicing it?
Just to make the point about how much bullpen management has changed the game since 1986, I'll mention how Jim Palmer commented on the broadcast of ALCS Game 7 that the Red Sox had babied Clemens that season, since he pitched only 10 complete games of his 33 starts.
He was pitching on fumes in that postseason, and I don't think he'd found his fountain of youth at that point.
He was pitching on fumes in that postseason, and I don't think he'd found his fountain of youth at that point.
reggiecleveland said:
No, but it also hasn't been mentioned that his ERA and WHIP were largely indistinguishable in his 1986-1995 and 1999-2007 stretches in the postseason, either. Or that his ERA was a half run better than his entire team during that stretch with the Red Sox, or that his lineups were held to a 2.70 ERA in those series, or that they gave him 3.6 runs per game in run support (53% of which were in Game 7 of the 1986 ALCS and Game 2 of the 1986 WS--which meant he got 2.1 runs a game in the other 7 games).
Roger was and likely still is a jackass, but the vilification of his efforts while with the Red Sox remains pretty ridiculous. It could be questioned his conditioning at times toward the end of his run, but his effort and performance from 1991-1996 was a lot stronger than that of his employer who made Danny Darwin and Jack Clark the two highest paid players on the club in 1991, made Frank Viola the highest paid pitcher in baseball in 1992 (coming off a 92 ERA+ season--thankfully he outpitched his FIPs in Boston so it wasn't a complete disaster), gave a bigger contract to Andre Dawson the following season, and had 63% of the payroll in 1994 tied up in Dawson, Viola, Jeff Russell, Danny Darwin, Joe Hesketh, Greg Harris, Scott Bankhead, and Dave Valle, who combined for a WAR of -0.1.
reggiecleveland said:
I believe the 17 K plaque is because that's the most ever rung up against the Yankees in their house, so it's as much a tweak to the Yankees as anything else.
Do gotta wonder what Clemens thought about that though... of course, his doesn't need a Red Sox HoF plaque for enshrinement.
reggiecleveland said:
Reverend said:
Clemens' 20k game in '86 was the first "Memorable Red Sox Moment" to be commemorated in the team's HOF when its inaugural class was inducted in 1995. His second 20k game hasn't been recognized as yet.
Other honored "Moments":
1997: Fisk's HR ('75 WS)
2000: Hendu's HR ('86 ALCS)
2002: Earl Wilson's no-hitter (6/26/1962)
2004: Carbo's PH-HR ('75 WS, Game 6)
2006: The Steal ('04 ALCS)
2008: Williams' HR in final career AB (9/28/1960)
2010: Brunansky's 9th-inning catch (10/3/1990)
2012: Sox clinch AL pennant on 10/1/1967 (beat MIN, then won it outright when DET lost later that night)