The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

8slim · Oct 23, 2023

Bob Sochi -- noted hot takez bomb thrower -- commented on T&R just now that Mac benefited greatly from (1) dramatically better OL play, (2) the Bills D being banged up and (3) BoB calling mostly short passes for much of the game. He also complimented Mac on completing more down the field throws late in the game.

ragnarok725 · Oct 23, 2023

BaseballJones said:
We do this with Mac because he's the QB on our favorite team, and we watch (and re-watch) every play, every week. We don't do this with any other QB. But I guarantee you that if we did this exercise with every other QB in the league, every week, play-by-play breakdown, we'd be able to point out all kinds of mistakes THEY make too that we don't pay any attention to in real life because we don't watch all their games, nor do we scrutinize their every play.

Here's how I think of it: The great QBs make FEWER mistakes on average than guys like Mac do. But also...because they're great (and often have great teams around them), they're able to overcome those mistakes, so we forget about them. I posted some boneheaded interceptions that Brady threw in the Super Bowl (one vs. Carolina and one vs. Seattle) that would have had this place howling if Mac had thrown them in a regular season game. They happen to every QB in the league. But because they're great, and because they play on good teams, they overcome them, and those plays are largely ignored or forgotten. But when you're a middling QB like Mac is, those plays cannot be overcome, and frankly, he makes more of them.

But to point to a game where he was as good as he has ever played in his career (in an amazing win against Buffalo in the last minute) and point out the couple of mistakes he made (and there were just a couple) seems overly critical of him. Not saying you're doing this specifically because you are also praising Mac for his performance, but this kind of mutes it, right? It's like, yeah he was pretty good but he still makes mistakes.

But I mean, EVERY quarterback makes mistakes. Like, every single one of them. Mahomes yesterday threw for 424 yards and 4 TD (even ran for 29 yards) and the team put up 31 points in a 14-point win over a division rival. Great game, right? Yes absolutely, 100%. But you know what? Mahomes ALSO made some mistakes. We just don't take the time to dive into them and nitpick them. Partly because he's amazing, and partly because they won anyway.

So understand what I AM saying and what I am NOT saying. I am NOT saying it's unfair to point out Mac's mistakes. It's part of analyzing the game and it's fair game for us to do this. But what I AM saying is that every QB makes mistakes, every single game, every single week. And that we can only really point to a couple of errors by Mac shows that he truly played exceedingly well yesterday.

If you want to make the point that people are overly critical of Mac after losses (as you do, repeatedly in this thread), then you should probably be the first one tempering expectations after a win.

We're in agreement about those mistakes. Most of them should be forgotten. The majority of interceptable balls aren't intercepted, and the offense recovers the majority of fumbles. I think Mac was getting unlucky the last few weeks and it wasn't fully reflective of who he is/can be.

Yesterday's game and the flat stats you've paraded out are similarly not reflective. He made some of the same mistakes. We should acknowledge that in the constant re-evaluation and expectation setting for our QB that is this thread.

heavyde050 · Oct 23, 2023

ragnarok725 said:
I will say off the top that I think this was Mac's best game as a Patriot. He's right that the OL gave him more time. The offensive gameplan also worked really well, scheming players open with motion. Everything about the offense worked better, and Mac was the biggest part of that.

But for the Mac truthers in here, I think it's worth not burying some of the bad plays he made in this game. There's the tipped ball that's been discussed, but I think the worst play was the fumble, because that was all on him.

On 3rd and 3 with 11:45 or so left in the game, Pats are up 16-10 at the Bills 32. They're in long field goal range if he doesn't take a sack. Mac is in the gun again (already not a good sign). He motions Zeke into the backfield and takes the snap. He has good time to throw - about 4 seconds before a Bills player is on him. He pats the ball twice... then tries to run... directly into the Trent Brown's butt. A defender catches him from behind and he fumbles. Onwenu falls on the ball to recover it. The whole play is wiped from the playbooks and our memory by an unnecessary illegal contact downfield on Pop, who was never a part of Mac's reads from what I can tell. It looked to me like he was staring down Bourne who the Bills put a player underneath at the sticks and he never came open.

Anyone with YTTV or DVR or whatever can go back and watch it. It's exactly the kind of disaster play that blew the team up against NO and LV. We're in field goal range in the fourth quarter with the chance to take the lead and Mac holds the ball too long, displays bad pocket awareness, panics, and takes a sack... and makes it even worse by trying to do too much and fumbling. Except our guy fell on the ball, and further it was wiped out by a bail out penalty. All the same behaviors we've been calling out in this thread, but deleted from the stat sheet and our brains.

Mac was getting those types of mistakes punished to the absolute maximum in the recent few games. Bad throws weren't just being batted down or falling incomplete... they were being intercepted, and returned for touchdowns. Not every one of those mistakes is supposed to bite you - most should get forgotten. Today, his few (I counted 2) interceptable balls were dropped by defenders, and his fumble was recovered and then wiped out. If that fumble is recovered by the Bills, and the Pats don't continue that drive for a TD, we're sitting here making Mark Sanchez jokes. That wouldn't have been fair, given the rest of the game he played. But that's how narrowly perception turns for QBs sometimes. He was getting too much blame after the recent losses, and he'll get too much credit after today's win.

All that being said, he did a lot of things better today, and had fewer of those potential mistakes to be converted than in recent weeks. He ran the offense well. If the guy that played today showed up every week, I'll have a lot more fun watching this team.

When was the second interceptable pass? I only remember the one right before the Bourne fumble.

joe dokes · Oct 23, 2023

tims4wins said:
Exactly, I just watched the play again.

Here's the play, link should go to the right time stamp. 12:10

Edit: yikes Trent

I give Brown a pass. If Love hadn't gotten hurt, Brown probably would've stayed out. (Of course, an injured hobbling Brown was still better than Love).

DJnVa · Oct 23, 2023

astrozombie · Oct 23, 2023

Reading these comments after the Bills game really just confirms what I already thought about Mac: he is as good as the team around him. This is the first game in forever where he did not look terrified every time the ball was snapped and he made some better throws. Did he make some bad ones? Sure! Could he have been better? Absolutely! But he looked like an actual, real NFL QB for a game against a Bills team that is legit. Mac Jones is not going to win games like Allen/Mahomes, but he can be serviceable. That what has been so frustrating about the Mac Jones experience for me - the inconsistent play is due to the fact that the offense around is and has been largely crap, due to a combination of low-end talent and coaching. When he was drafted, I thought BB could provide an average offense around Mac, a typically solid defense and then they could contend with that. The offense has not been there, Mac hasn't been good enough to pull it up and here we are: with the Bills game representing what could have been if more things broke right.

BaseballJones · Oct 23, 2023

ragnarok725 said:
If you want to make the point that people are overly critical of Mac after losses (as you do, repeatedly in this thread), then you should probably be the first one tempering expectations after a win.

We're in agreement about those mistakes. Most of them should be forgotten. The majority of interceptable balls aren't intercepted, and the offense recovers the majority of fumbles. I think Mac was getting unlucky the last few weeks and it wasn't fully reflective of who he is/can be.

Yesterday's game and the flat stats you've paraded out are similarly not reflective. He made some of the same mistakes. We should acknowledge that in the constant re-evaluation and expectation setting for our QB that is this thread.

My analysis of Mac and my thoughts about him for the future (i.e., my "expectations") haven't changed because of this game. I was happy they drafted him out of college and thought he'd be a good NFL QB. There's been some highs and a lot of lows and I came to the point where I said they need to draft another QB in this coming draft. That's still my perspective. It will take a lot more than one good game to change that.

But I can look at his game yesterday and simply say that I thought he was great. No need to nitpick a couple of mistakes - when similar things happen to virtually every QB virtually every single week in the NFL.

I don't mind talking about the mistakes, but it FEELS (now my feelings on this may be off, I grant you) like some here just don't want to give Mac credit and just HAVE to bring up these couple of mistakes. But again, maybe I'm misreading it.

EDIT: And I say that some people are overly critical of Mac after SOME losses, but there have been times where I've been as much on board with the criticism as anyone else here, just for the record.

ragnarok725 · Oct 23, 2023

heavyde050 said:
When was the second interceptable pass? I only remember the one right before the Bourne fumble.

I should retract that. I was thinking about the ball he tried to pull back mid-throw to Douglas on the drive at the end of the half, but going back and looking at it again, it was nothing.

8slim · Oct 23, 2023

astrozombie said:
Reading these comments after the Bills game really just confirms what I already thought about Mac: he is as good as the team around him. This is the first game in forever where he did not look terrified every time the ball was snapped and he made some better throws. Did he make some bad ones? Sure! Could he have been better? Absolutely! But he looked like an actual, real NFL QB for a game against a Bills team that is legit. Mac Jones is not going to win games like Allen/Mahomes, but he can be serviceable. That what has been so frustrating about the Mac Jones experience for me - the inconsistent play is due to the fact that the offense around is and has been largely crap, due to a combination of low-end talent and coaching. When he was drafted, I thought BB could provide an average offense around Mac, a typically solid defense and then they could contend with that. The offense has not been there, Mac hasn't been good enough to pull it up and here we are: with the Bills game representing what could have been if more things broke right.

Like I said in another thread, wouldn't it be great to have another 2 or 3 guys who have the speed and explosiveness of Douglas? You know, like many, many NFL teams have?

ragnarok725 · Oct 23, 2023

BaseballJones said:
My analysis of Mac and my thoughts about him for the future (i.e., my "expectations") haven't changed because of this game. I was happy they drafted him out of college and thought he'd be a good NFL QB. There's been some highs and a lot of lows and I came to the point where I said they need to draft another QB in this coming draft. That's still my perspective. It will take a lot more than one good game to change that.

But I can look at his game yesterday and simply say that I thought he was great. No need to nitpick a couple of mistakes - when similar things happen to virtually every QB virtually every single week in the NFL.

I don't mind talking about the mistakes, but it FEELS (now my feelings on this may be off, I grant you) like some here just don't want to give Mac credit and just HAVE to bring up these couple of mistakes. But again, maybe I'm misreading it.

EDIT: And I say that some people are overly critical of Mac after SOME losses, but there have been times where I've been as much on board with the criticism as anyone else here, just for the record.

Then you're a more level headed sports fan than me.

I watched yesterday's game and I want to get excited that maybe Mac's turned a corner. Maybe he's going to drop some of his bad habits and grow into the above average mistake minimizer I was hoping he'd be. It's worthwhile to me to examine whether he made any of the same mistakes (regardless of outcome) in yesterday's game to investigate how much hope it should give me.

sezwho · Oct 23, 2023

joe dokes said:
Good point. That was the guy who swiped at his arm, then dragged him down after the throw, IIRC.

There is still something lefty-junkballer about his throws….like he’s trying to drop it in a bucket rather than fire it through the tire.

joe dokes said:
Just deciding to actually throw that pass to Brown* over the defender's head was an indication of either confidence that had been lacking or having been taken to the woodshed.

*If Mr. Brown has a fan club, it must be Pharaoh's Army.

Nice, and I’m not arguing the theme song either. The sample size is minuscule but he looks like he can block a bit too.

heavyde050 · Oct 23, 2023

ragnarok725 said:
I should retract that. I was thinking about the ball he tried to pull back mid-throw to Douglas on the drive at the end of the half, but going back and looking at it again, it was nothing.

Thanks. Mac is just so polarizing. I hope this is the beginning of him turning the corner, but I am definitely not going to hold my breath.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Oct 23, 2023

Jinhocho said:
This team wont be in the running for a top 5 pick. That has been true all year long.

They were averaging 12 points a game 1/3 of the way through the season. They're missing their best pass rusher and (potentially) their best corner for the season. Their schedule, despite getting a little softer in a few weeks, is brutal.

With the Dolphins game coming up, had they lost to the Bill's they most likely would be sitting at 1-7 halfway through the season. They absolutely were in the running for a top 5 pick, and winning this game most likely only makes them a 6 win team.

Over the last handful of seasons, 6 win teams draft somewhere between 6-9th. 5 win teams float around 4-7th. I'd also think that even BB would be willing to sacrifice wins the last 6 weeks of a dead season to (A) give playing time to scout players who may help in the future (B) protect older players from injuries and extend their use (C) get a better draft pick.

Despite my posts, I was rooting for them to beat the Bill's. I just can't root for losses. But I do believe the best thing for this team would have been to lose. Their are 12 teams with more wins than the Patriots, and one of the team with 2 wins will definitely finish higher than us (Chargers).

THIS roster will have to finish their final 10 games going 8-2 just to HOPE they can sneak into the playoffs. It's not happening. I think this defense is really decent, and a healthy defense next season with a revamped offense and top QB prospect are a better outcome than anything that a few more wins this season is worth.

rodderick · Oct 23, 2023

Having now watched the game, I don't think protection was all that much better than what Mac had in the Raiders game. He was simply much more consistent with his mechanics, threw from a solid base more often, trusted the pocket more and I also thought play calling was vastly improved, more varied and put more stress on the Bills defense. More play action, more motion, more RPOs. This game to me is the perfect encapsulation of why the "they can't play any better with this personnel" narrative was kinda flawed. Mac Jones was playing poorly, play calling was stale, the OL was trash, they were leaving their most dynamic receiver on the bench. There was vast margin for improvement and I think the people whose takeaway from this game is "seeee, this is what Mac can do when he has time" is super flawed. He was meaningfully better in terms of process and mechanical consistency. He played well yesterday. The environment around him helped, but if everything else had improved and Mac was the jittery unsure mechanical mess he was in Weeks 4-6, they would've been under 20 again.

joe dokes · Oct 23, 2023

DJnVa said:

Fewer, Mike.

NomarsFool · Oct 23, 2023

heavyde050 said:
Thanks. Mac is just so polarizing. I hope this is the beginning of him turning the corner, but I am definitely not going to hold my breath.

Is he really? I don't think there are that many fans out there who really love him. I think the two camps are basically "Bottom 3 QB in the league" and "He could be a #18-25 QB in the league so that you can win if you have right pieces around him". One could squint after his rookie season and believe he could be the answer at QB for years to come. Not sure there is anyone without the last name of Jones who believes that now.

rodderick · Oct 23, 2023

NomarsFool said:
Is he really? I don't think there are that many fans out there who really love him. I think the two camps are basically "Bottom 3 QB in the league" and "He could be a #18-25 QB in the league so that you can win if you have right pieces around him". One could squint after his rookie season and believe he could be the answer at QB for years to come. Not sure there is anyone without the last name of Jones who believes that now.

There's a huge faction of Mac fans on Twitter, but that's the only place I've seen it.

azsoxpatsfan · Oct 23, 2023

This is me kind of spitballing, but it seems to me that a quarterbacks ability to not turn the ball over is similar to a baseball players ability to hit for average. During some stretches a much higher or lower percentage of turnover worthy plays will result in a turnover, like how a hitter can have a BABIP of .450 over two weeks then .150 the next. Over time it will normalize. We don’t have things like EV and xBA for quarterbacks, and I don’t have the ability analyze turnover-worthy plays like PFF does (and I’m not sure I trust how they do it), so for myself I just look at results unless there’s something glaringly obvious that was extremely (un)lucky. For that reason, I think Mac played pretty great yesterday.

That said, I’m still convinced Mahomes would’ve had like 25 picks two years ago if DBs caught any of the gimmes he tossed their way, and I’ll absolutely hold that against him. But I’m a hater

azsoxpatsfan · Oct 23, 2023

NomarsFool said:
Is he really? I don't think there are that many fans out there who really love him. I think the two camps are basically "Bottom 3 QB in the league" and "He could be a #18-25 QB in the league so that you can win if you have right pieces around him". One could squint after his rookie season and believe he could be the answer at QB for years to come. Not sure there is anyone without the last name of Jones who believes that now.

On the macro level he might not be, but in terms of individual plays/games he absolutely is. People here will watch the exact same play (like the pass to Gesecki) and some will say it was a bad throw he almost missed, some will say it was a good throw. Or the throw to Bourne a few weeks back, some will say Bourne dropped a dot, others will say he almost made a great catch on a throw Mac shouldn’t have even tried to make. A ton of that is in game threads though so it’s not super fair to hold it against anyone in particular, but he’s absolutely polarizing in that regard

richgedman'sghost · Oct 23, 2023

8slim said:
He had a good game.

You refuse to give Mac any credit. He gets a pass tipped at the line and you act like Mac was the second coming of JaMarcus Russell out there yesterday. Ok I admit Mac wasn't perfect yesterday but you seem to go too far in the other direction.

heavyde050 · Oct 23, 2023

azsoxpatsfan said:
On the macro level he might not be, but in terms of individual plays/games he absolutely is. People here will watch the exact same play (like the pass to Gesecki) and some will say it was a bad throw he almost missed, some will say it was a good throw. Or the throw to Bourne a few weeks back, some will say Bourne dropped a dot, others will say he almost made a great catch on a throw Mac shouldn’t have even tried to make. A ton of that is in game threads though so it’s not super fair to hold it against anyone in particular, but he’s absolutely polarizing in that regard

This is more what I meant. I also probably used the wrong word with polarizing. I meant more that he seems to really elicit a super strong reaction.

astrozombie · Oct 23, 2023

8slim said:
Like I said in another thread, wouldn't it be great to have another 2 or 3 guys who have the speed and explosiveness of Douglas? You know, like many, many NFL teams have?

It has been frustrating to watch elite teams go for elite WRs (Hill/Waddle, Brown/Smith, Jefferson, Chase, Diggs, etc.) and BB the GM continues to think he can largely pull guys off the scrap heap, cast-offs, or late rounds and that is good enough.

richgedman'sghost · Oct 23, 2023

Arroyoyo said:
Why say this?

“The offensive line gave me the time I needed today," Jones said in his postgame press conference. "When I have time I can go and read the offense how we’re supposed to, and I really appreciate those guys."

He’s blaming his struggles in past games on the OL not giving him time to “read the offense how [he’s] supposed to.” He didn’t need to say that - but he did. He literally could say “everyone did their jobs today.” Or he could say nothing at all about the OL. But he singled them out knowing damn well there’s a contingent of “Patriots Nation” that blames his awful play on the OL and not on Mac himself.

Your hatred for Mac is shining through. You should be on the IL for the strained hamstring you got trying to find the negativity from Mac in that quote. Mac if anything has been very very accountable for his genuine mistakes. He doesn't need you piling on.

Al Zarilla · Oct 23, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
This is wild self delusion my man.... tons of terrible QBs, far worse than Mac Jones have had great games in much bigger and tougher situations. Nick Foles is garbage, he rode a hot streak to a SB MVP. Even the worst NFL QBs can have good games or even stretches, just as even all-time greats can have just disasters.

You're not going to clear my bit of euphoria by hitting the reset button. Not wired to receive any clear signal today. Mac and the Patriots showed definite improvement yesterday. Ride with it. Until Miami.

heavyde050 · Oct 23, 2023

NomarsFool said:
Is he really? I don't think there are that many fans out there who really love him. I think the two camps are basically "Bottom 3 QB in the league" and "He could be a #18-25 QB in the league so that you can win if you have right pieces around him". One could squint after his rookie season and believe he could be the answer at QB for years to come. Not sure there is anyone without the last name of Jones who believes that now.

Did you mean bottom 3 starting QB or bottom 3 QB? I mean he is almost certainly not a bottom 3 QB in the entire league.

Jinhocho · Oct 23, 2023

Was (Not Wasdin) said:
I was at the game and havent rewatched it yet, but it looked to me that after he missed Douglas in the end zone, they came back and ran the same play with Gesicki, who had a significant size advantage over the guy covering him, making it an easier throw for Mac. Maybe they check out of that play if Buffalo isnt in the same coverage, but they were, and the Pats took advantage. That's good coaching/game planning. Maybe some other things like on the coaching front have gone missed because of the overall suck these last few weeks, but I haven't seen too many plays like that. That is putting a guy (a couple of guys actually) in position to make a play that they are fully capable of making, and not asking them to do something that isnt realistic.

I thought the playcalling was good. I liked those runs up the middle to open up the game. They seemed to really focus on getting first downs and keeping drives going (that QB sneak near the end of the first half in particular, to just get the 1st and kill the half). I thought BoB was a real plus yesterday.

As long as we can refer to him individually as "Bad, Bad, Pharoah Brown, Baddest Man in the Whole Damn Town."

They pointed out that he had the guy open on the earlier play and throwing it earlier in the route was an easy td. It looked like they came backt to it to me too.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

heavyde050 said:
When was the second interceptable pass? I only remember the one right before the Bourne fumble.

And that was tipped at the LOS.

I know some folks have the ability to see the future and have determined the ball would have been picked if it wasn't tipped, but I'm not one of those people with ESP.

What I do know is that Mac Jones, for all his warts, doesn't get the ball batted down at or behind the LOS very often, or not significantly more often than most. It's happened 6 times this year, which for him, is a lot. But in his career, the total is 23. Justin Herbert over the last 2+ seasons is at 44. Josh Allen has 33, Hurts has 27, Mahomes only has 16, Lamar has 18, Cousins is 19, Burrow has 40.

The difference as I see it, comes back to the point @ragnarok725 is making. Mac is getting punished for these types of things far more than most quarterbacks do, as it seems like a tipped ball that he throws never ends up just going down into the turf.

Jinhocho · Oct 23, 2023

joe dokes said:
Same here. But at least this week, for reasons that are above my analytical ability, receivers were actually open.
I think, as Henry did on his late catch, they get hit harder on Mac's not-fast balls. But this week they had time & space to make catches that didn't seem to be there previously. I hope some of our more savvy observers here dig into that a bit. (Better plays?; better receivers -- Douglas > JuJu?)

They are often open, but his slowness (fear of rush?) getting the ball out at times and the softness of his throws (footwork?) often means no bueno. I was encouraged by the slants yesterday.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 23, 2023

Jinhocho said:
They are often open, but his slowness (fear of rush?) getting the ball out at times and the softness of his throws (footwork?) often means no bueno. I was encouraged by the slants yesterday.

I find myself often wishing he could throw it harder. He was really good yesterday but sometimes the ball does take a long time to get there.

I doubt that's something he can change much at this point. I do think he got into NFL shape over the last few offseasons, but some guys just don't have cannons for arms.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

ragnarok725 said:
Then you're a more level headed sports fan than me.

I watched yesterday's game and I want to get excited that maybe Mac's turned a corner. Maybe he's going to drop some of his bad habits and grow into the above average mistake minimizer I was hoping he'd be. It's worthwhile to me to examine whether he made any of the same mistakes (regardless of outcome) in yesterday's game to investigate how much hope it should give me.

I kind of having a different take.

What I see from yesterday is that Mac Jones needs to play nearly perfect football for this team to win a game with almost no time on the clock.

It's because of the team around him that we need him to be virtually flawless to pull games out. Guys like Tua and Hurts can make mistakes, because at any time, they've got players around them that can bust shit open and make plays. They've got offensive lines that can move piles. If Hurts throws a pick, which he's done more than Mac this season, it's not the end of the world for Philly, because they're explosive enough to just come back and score in 4 plays on the next drive.

Mac has to be near perfect for the Pats to have a chance in these games, and frankly, it has and will continue to be too much to expect from him. I've been saying for weeks that I think Mac is broken, so yesterday was a nice shot in the arm that maybe he's not there yet, but I'm still holding my breath. Frankly, I still believe he'll be the QB for the Pats in 2024, and I'm hoping they use some of that massive cap space to go get him playmakers, either through FA, the draft or trade, and some help on the offensive line. If he sucks, so be it, but my window for a QB in the draft has always been the 2026 draft (Arch Manning, come one down, but the rest of that class looks like it could be pretty special at QB too).

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 23, 2023

If a QB has to be near perfect for the team to have success, is he really the right guy for the job? No snark intended, that's an honest question.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

Jinhocho said:
They pointed out that he had the guy open on the earlier play and throwing it earlier in the route was an easy td. It looked like they came backt to it to me too.

The earlier play was the overthrow to Douglas. There was a LB roaming underneath in the lane, and of course, a pick there ends the game. Mac had to go high with it, and overthrew it a bit, but that's a "if he catches it, fantastic, but if not, make sure you live for another play" throws. I had no issue with it.

They came right back with it on the next play, but the difference was instead of having a 5'8 Douglas in the route, they used 6'6 Gesicki. All of a sudden, that high throw over the linebacker can be caught. It was a great job by everyone from BoB to Mac, IMO.

rodderick · Oct 23, 2023

Strike4 said:
The thing about today relative to whatever comps...that was not a game a bad QB is capable of having. Given the opponent and the stakes, a bad QB simply can't do that. A bad QB can have a random 3 TD game and win in an upset with the other team turning the ball over and playing poorly. This was way different - a tough, tough game winning drive when nobody thought it could happen and with marginal players around him.

Not sure what that means going forward, but it's really interesting. The Pats need to do every they can to focus on making that happen again.

That's absolutely a game a bad QB is capable of having, just like the Cowboys game is one a great QB is capable of having.

ragnarok725 · Oct 23, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
I kind of having a different take.

What I see from yesterday is that Mac Jones needs to play nearly perfect football for this team to win a game with almost no time on the clock.

It's because of the team around him that we need him to be virtually flawless to pull games out. Guys like Tua and Hurts can make mistakes, because at any time, they've got players around them that can bust shit open and make plays. They've got offensive lines that can move piles. If Hurts throws a pick, which he's done more than Mac this season, it's not the end of the world for Philly, because they're explosive enough to just come back and score in 4 plays on the next drive.

Mac has to be near perfect for the Pats to have a chance in these games, and frankly, it has and will continue to be too much to expect from him. I've been saying for weeks that I think Mac is broken, so yesterday was a nice shot in the arm that maybe he's not there yet, but I'm still holding my breath. Frankly, I still believe he'll be the QB for the Pats in 2024, and I'm hoping they use some of that massive cap space to go get him playmakers, either through FA, the draft or trade, and some help on the offensive line. If he sucks, so be it, but my window for a QB in the draft has always been the 2026 draft (Arch Manning, come one down, but the rest of that class looks like it could be pretty special at QB too).

I think this is all right, with one addition. Mac doesn't make the explosive plays either.

Hurts and Tua get bailed out by their teammates making big plays and recovering from their mistakes. But they as players also bail themselves out by occasionally turning nothing into something. Mahomes does this better than anyone, escaping a collapsing pocket and finding a big play down the field. Mac doesn't give you that any more than Devante Parker gives you big hits down the field.

Mac has to be near perfect for the Pats to win - but it's his perfect, which is basically a dead average QB.

E5 Yaz · Oct 23, 2023

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
If a QB has to be near perfect for the team to have success, is he really the right guy for the job? No snark intended, that's an honest question.

Honestly, it depends on the rest of the team. If the QB has to be near perfect, it's as much because the line is leaking and the targets are substandard. A great line and great receivers can help make up for a QB having an average game

tims4wins · Oct 23, 2023

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I find myself often wishing he could throw it harder. He was really good yesterday but sometimes the ball does take a long time to get there.

I doubt that's something he can change much at this point. I do think he got into NFL shape over the last few offseasons, but some guys just don't have cannons for arms.

Same feeling here. Everything is just a little too slow. Which is what the coaching report was on Brady in 2000. Mac still hasn’t figured out how to play faster, and I remain doubtful he will ever get there.

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
If a QB has to be near perfect for the team to have success, is he really the right guy for the job? No snark intended, that's an honest question.

DOTB is saying the surrounding talent is so poor that it creates an unfair situation for Mac. I’m no Mac apologist but I agree. Where would this team be with prime Brady? 4-3 maybe?

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
If a QB has to be near perfect for the team to have success, is he really the right guy for the job? No snark intended, that's an honest question.

Nobody is the right man for this job, with the way the offensive line has played this season, and the skill position players sucking donkey balls.

Short of Mahomes, I don't think any QB in the NFL would have this team better than 3-4 right now. Maybe a couple crazy breaks, and they're 4-3. I mean, there's only 3 NFL teams with 1 loss, and their rosters are either loaded (Philly, SF) or they have Mahomes.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 23, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
Nobody is the right man for this job, with the way the offensive line has played this season, and the skill position players sucking donkey balls.

Short of Mahomes, I don't think any QB in the NFL would have this team better than 3-4 right now. Maybe a couple crazy breaks, and they're 4-3. I mean, there's only 3 NFL teams with 1 loss, and they're rosters are either loaded (Philly, SF) or they have Mahomes.

The real question is: can a guy like Mac win a Super Bowl?

No one expects him to be Mahomes or Hurts or Burrow. But can he even be Jimmy G in SF? I just don't know. We could give him Tyreek Hill (hopefully without the domestic violence) and somehow I can't see Mac turning into a star even then.

Maybe I'm wrong. But the reports on him always were that his ceiling was fairly low but his floor was high. Is that enough?

ShaneTrot · Oct 23, 2023

Well, I will give him credit for not forcing the ball to Parker. That dude played 35 snaps, one target, one catch.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 23, 2023

ShaneTrot said:
Well, I will give him credit for not forcing the ball to Parker. That dude played 35 snaps, one target, one catch.

He was never open. It was almost impressive.

E5 Yaz · Oct 23, 2023

ShaneTrot said:
Well, I will give him credit for not forcing the ball to Parker. That dude played 35 snaps, one target, one catch.

The same targets as Reagor

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The real question is: can a guy like Mac win a Super Bowl?

No one expects him to be Mahomes or Hurts or Burrow. But can he even be Jimmy G in SF? I just don't know. We could give him Tyreek Hill (hopefully without the domestic violence) and somehow I can't see Mac turning into a star even then.

Maybe I'm wrong. But the reports on him always were that his ceiling was fairly low but his floor was high. Is that enough?

In recent memory, we've had Stafford, Nick Foles, a noodle armed Manning, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Eli twice winning Super Bowls, so I'd say stranger things have happened.

That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs, it's one game, and as we see every single Sunday, anything can happen, just got to get to the dance.

If Mac Jones had the SF roster around him, I could absolutely see them making a SB run. If the Pats get healthy next year, and have the #1 defense in the league (which IMO, they absolutely could), and they put an above average roster around him on offense, then yes, I believe they could make a run.

I also don't judge everything by championships or bust. If I did, I probably would have stopped watching Boston sports in the 90's. If being a top 4-6 team in the league with a chance isn't enough to be happy, then we're almost, literally almost, never going to be happy.

Auger34 · Oct 23, 2023

richgedman'sghost said:
You refuse to give Mac any credit. He gets a pass tipped at the line and you act like Mac was the second coming of JaMarcus Russell out there yesterday. Ok I admit Mac wasn't perfect yesterday but you seem to go too far in the other direction.

Have you read any of the other @8slim posts in this thread? I mean, he's been completely rational and you're labeling him as some sort of anti-Mac zealot. If that's your read of what he's posting, I think you might need to check your own opinions on Mac first

Auger34 · Oct 23, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
In recent memory, we've had Stafford, Nick Foles, a noodle armed Manning, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Eli twice winning Super Bowls, so I'd say stranger things have happened.

That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs, it's one game, and as we see every single Sunday, anything can happen, just got to get to the dance.

If Mac Jones had the SF roster around him, I could absolutely see them making a SB run. If the Pats get healthy next year, and have the #1 defense in the league (which IMO, they absolutely could), and they put an above average roster around him on offense, then yes, I believe they could make a run.

I also don't judge everything by championships or bust. If I did, I probably would have stopped watching Boston sports in the 90's. If being a top 4-6 team in the league with a chance isn't enough to be happy, then we're almost, literally almost, never going to be happy.

Matt Stafford is a much better QB than Mac. He doesn't deserve to be on that list or as a comparison for Mac (that's unfair to Mac)

If Mac played in SF, I think they could make a run. I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that any Patriots iteration in the next 2-3 years could make a run with Mac as the QB. There's not enough talent around him on offense and I don't think that that can be brought to the level it needs to in that time

FL4WL3SS · Oct 23, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
In recent memory, we've had Stafford, Nick Foles, a noodle armed Manning, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Eli twice winning Super Bowls, so I'd say stranger things have happened.

That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs, it's one game, and as we see every single Sunday, anything can happen, just got to get to the dance.

If Mac Jones had the SF roster around him, I could absolutely see them making a SB run. If the Pats get healthy next year, and have the #1 defense in the league (which IMO, they absolutely could), and they put an above average roster around him on offense, then yes, I believe they could make a run.

I also don't judge everything by championships or bust. If I did, I probably would have stopped watching Boston sports in the 90's. If being a top 4-6 team in the league with a chance isn't enough to be happy, then we're almost, literally almost, never going to be happy.

You think Mac Jones is leading a team to the SB? You completely ignore his limitations when making these statements. You can put all the talent in the world around him and the offense will be limited because of his deficiencies. He would hold back the SF offense as much as the SF offense would help him.

He had one good game this year, the rest were filled with him throwing to the wrong team. No amount of talent around him will overcome that.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

tbb345 said:
Matt Stafford is a much better QB than Mac. He doesn't deserve to be on that list or as a comparison for Mac (that's unfair to Mac)

If Mac played in SF, I think they could make a run. I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that any Patriots iteration in the next 2-3 years could make a run with Mac as the QB. There's not enough talent around him on offense and I don't think that that can be brought to the level it needs to in that time

I don't disagree with that.

But let's remember, in 2020, the Eagles were 4-11-1. They had Carson Wentz starting over Hurts, and then when Hurts got the job, he didn't look much better. They spent an offseason changing the coaching staff, and improving the roster all around, and went 9-8 in 2021. Then they went and got AJ Brown, kept improving the roster, and went 14-3 in 2022 and went to the SB.

The Pats are sitting on close to $100mil in cap money, a bunch of draft picks (including what will likely be a pretty good first rounder this year) and guys that could be moved to free up more space and bring back some starting level players. The options are there, but like you, I highly doubt they do it, because it's not what Bill does.

Jimbodandy · Oct 23, 2023

FL4WL3SS said:
You think Mac Jones is leading a team to the SB? You completely ignore his limitations when making these statements. You can put all the talent in the world around him and the offense will be limited because of his deficiencies. He would hold back the SF offense as much as the SF offense would help him.

He had one good game this year, the rest were filled with him throwing to the wrong team. No amount of talent around him will overcome that.

Have you seen this guy play?

https://thedraftnetwork.com/sr-prospect/brock-purdy-ab6168d1-22db-40d7-a236-05c3d23b5c19/

Deathofthebambino · Oct 23, 2023

FL4WL3SS said:
You think Mac Jones is leading a team to the SB? You completely ignore his limitations when making these statements. You can put all the talent in the world around him and the offense will be limited because of his deficiencies. He would hold back the SF offense as much as the SF offense would help him.

He had one good game this year, the rest were filled with him throwing to the wrong team. No amount of talent around him will overcome that.

It's all good, we aren't watching the same sport if you believe Mac played poorly against the Eagles and Dolphins.

TFisNEXT · Oct 23, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
In recent memory, we've had Stafford, Nick Foles, a noodle armed Manning, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Eli twice winning Super Bowls, so I'd say stranger things have happened.

That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs, it's one game, and as we see every single Sunday, anything can happen, just got to get to the dance.

If Mac Jones had the SF roster around him, I could absolutely see them making a SB run. If the Pats get healthy next year, and have the #1 defense in the league (which IMO, they absolutely could), and they put an above average roster around him on offense, then yes, I believe they could make a run.

I also don't judge everything by championships or bust. If I did, I probably would have stopped watching Boston sports in the 90's. If being a top 4-6 team in the league with a chance isn't enough to be happy, then we're almost, literally almost, never going to be happy.

QB is such a tough position to break down....especially when you start adding in all the external variables out of their control.

I think almost everyone can agree on the below points:

1. Mac isn't physically gifted using an NFL QB standard as the baseline. But this was known when they drafted him.
2. Mac is a fairly accurate QB (his arm may not be strong, but its usually fairly accurate...which was his scouting report coming out of college)

What I think is tough to disentangle are the external variables:

1. Mac has played behind one of the worst (if not THE worst) offensive lines for pass protection the past couple of years
2. His skill position supporting cast leaves a lot to be desired
3. Coaching/offensive system (this one was left a little opaque intentionally)....are these the right coaches and the right system for Mac?
4. Confidence? (hard to measure confidence, but anyone who has played competitive sports can tell you how much it can fuck with your performance)

I think an optimist can make a fairly reasonable case that he could lead a super bowl run if he had the right external variables in his favor. But I think a pessimist could also make a reasonable case that he cannot....even if only using #4 on the list above. Did his confidence get broken enough that he missed his shot? Who knows. I did watch about half of the game yesterday including the final drive and I'll say as someone who doesn't root for the Patriots as my primary team that he looked totally competent out there in that game. It was unlike several other games where he looked almost unplayable. So maybe that is a game where he can flip the script on #4 and regain some much needed confidence.

BaseballJones · Oct 23, 2023

No question yesterday was the best game of his season so far, by leaps and bounds, and one of the best games of his NFL career. Here are the others at the top:

11/14/21 - NE 45, Cle 7 - Mac: 19-23 (82.6%), 198 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 142.1 rating
1/2/22 - NE 50, Jax 10 - Mac: 22-30 (73.3%), 227 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 128.1 rating
10/22/23 - NE 29, Buf 25 - Mac: 25-30 (83.3%), 272 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 126.7 rating
11/28/21 - NE 36, Ten 13 - Mac: 23-32 (71.9%), 310 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 123.2 rating

Now these represent his best statistical games. But the reason I'd put yesterday at the very top was because of the circumstances. Team in free-fall. His career hanging in the balance. Playing a top team in the division/conference, who had been owning the Pats in recent years. He plays nearly flawlessly, especially in the second half. Leads a huge comeback in the last minute and throws the game winning TD with seconds left on the clock.

But here's the thing: this was a great game by Mac, but it says something that he's never had a BETTER game in three seasons. You'd think he'd have at least one 350 yard, 4 TD game, but nope.

The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

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