I think that most people acknowledge this. The bigger issue you have is the man making the decisions regarding offensive personnel and staff.Shit, I'll stand by that.
I've asked for examples repeatedly.
What QB in the past decade, playing with an offensive line this bad, and receivers this mediocre or worse have put up top 5, or even top 10 numbers passing the ball. If folks can provide me one example without including Brady or Mahomes (and even in their cases, I'm not sure you'll find a season with less weapons and a worse line than what Mac has had the last 2 years), let me know, because everyone here has acknowledged that Mac Jones is neither of those guys.
So putting them aside, who? And if the standard that we're holding Mac to is Brady/Mahomes or bust, then I've got news for folks. You're going to be waiting a while.
I'll hang up and listen.
You say this like it's a bad thing. The two TE system is the best offensive formation in football.I think that most people acknowledge this. The bigger issue you have is the man making the decisions regarding offensive personnel and staff.
If the playmakers aren’t good enough, that falls on Bill, who for about the sixth time has tried to recreate the two TE magic he had a decade ago.
If you can pass out of it. You need the right mix of TEs. I am not sure who they thought would be the in-line guy vs the move TE but there was no synergy with that mix.You say this like it's a bad thing. The two TE system is the best offensive formation in football.
Early career Andrew Luck.Shit, I'll stand by that.
I've asked for examples repeatedly.
What QB in the past decade, playing with an offensive line this bad, and receivers this mediocre or worse have put up top 5, or even top 10 numbers passing the ball. If folks can provide me one example without including Brady or Mahomes (and even in their cases, I'm not sure you'll find a season with less weapons and a worse line than what Mac has had the last 2 years), let me know, because everyone here has acknowledged that Mac Jones is neither of those guys.
So putting them aside, who? And if the standard that we're holding Mac to is Brady/Mahomes or bust, then I've got news for folks. You're going to be waiting a while.
I'll hang up and listen.
I’m not sure I’d call any of their receiving corps “dog shit” except maybe Lamar who is a unique case given his running ability. Looking at the guys they had to throw to, I’d swap the Pats skill guys for any of those groups, no question.Early career Andrew Luck.
Early career Russell Wilson.
Alex Smith in Kansas City.
Kirk Cousins in Washington.
Lamar Jackson.
All had top 10 seasons when their lines and WR's were dog shit, but - other than Cousins - probably goes to emphasize your point. Is it doable to put up a top 10 type of season with below average offensive pieces? Sure, but its rare.
It also drove Luck into early retirement, snapped Smith's leg in half, and required ridiculous athleticism from Wilson/Jackson to run for their lives every other play. It certainly isn't a sustainable method for creating good offenses, yet the Pats line and wide receivers have sucked for the last 3 seasons.
It's hard to find an exact apples to apples. Some of their WR corps may have been slightly better, but their lines were worse. Yes, Smith had Charles, but the Pats RBs were very good last season as well.I’m not sure I’d call any of their receiving corps “dog shit” except maybe Lamar who is a unique case given his running ability. Looking at the guys they had to throw to, I’d swap the Pats skill guys for any of those groups, no question.
Andrew Luck had late career Reggie Wayne who put up almost 1400 yards Luck’s rookie year and young TY Hilton… either one would be the clear #1 option on the Pats right now.
Smith had a pu pu platter of mediocre receivers over the years, but his best years he had either peak Jamaal Charles or young Kelce and Jeremy Maclin. Even before Kelce was Kelce, him plus Maclin is a dramatic improvement over Hunter Henry and Devante Parker or Kendrick Bourne.
I look at the names Cousins played with and am shocked to see Pierre Garçon somehow put up a 1300 yard season. Late-20s Desean Jackson is an upgrade on any Pats WR…
Yeah, 2021 O-line was near universally considered one of the best in the league.I would push back on the 2021 OL being bad. IMO it was a top 5 line that year if not better.
If youll admit that "always been terrible" is hyperbolic because his rookie year (when he had a good line) he put up perfectly average numbers, and pretty good numbers for a rookie...Ill admit to wanting him to have no future with Patriots. Can we meet halfway?He's always been terrible
I've admitted several times that he had a good first half to two -thirds of a season his rookie year.If youll admit that "always been terrible" is hyperbolic because his rookie year (when he had a good line) he put up perfectly average numbers, and pretty good numbers for a rookie...Ill admit to wanting him to have no future with Patriots. Can we meet halfway?
ps - WRT to a recent gamethread post, I dont think I was one of those people you were referring to, but if by chance I was shoot me a PM to hash it out
So you agree...he hasnt always been terrible! Ha! Kidding aside it's a fair response, and as soon as I read it I remembered you writing stuff along those lines in the past.I've admitted several times that he had a good first half to two -thirds of a season his rookie year.
However as soon as defenses figured him out, he's been terrible ever since.
Atlanta- Ridder is way worse than Mac, Heineke stinks tooWhat team has a worse QB situation top to bottom than the Pats right now.
The Jets. Yes Mac is better than Zach. Who else? Mac sucks and Zappe isn't any better. It is horrendous.
LMAOTom Brady would do the same with these weapons guys, still need the weapons.
No he wouldn’t and you should feel ridiculous to for saying it.Tom Brady would do the same with these weapons guys, still need the weapons.
Joe Burrow is also playing through a well documented injury and has three years of tape suggesting he’s an elite QB playing injured.You guys complain about Mac, but Joe Burrow - who everyone agrees is a top QB and has Chase and Higgins - only threw for 165 yards today, a figure Mac will surely pass. Makes you think.
Baker is really fun to root forAtlanta- Ridder is way worse than Mac, Heineke stinks too
Tampa?- Depends how you feel about Baker but he's probably worse on the whole than Mac
Pittsburght- I think Pickett is terrible, Trubisky is a real backup though tI guess.
I gave all the rookies a pass, as we always should.
The same? I don’t think the weapons are great or even good but Brady had terrible weapons at times and he still won a lot of games and even playoff games. 2006 comes to mind. Mac is not good and nothing around him is good but I cannot say Brady would do the same in this situationTom Brady would do the same with these weapons guys, still need the weapons.
darn. I fell for itI'm kinda sad you guys actually thought I was serious. Although arguments not dissimilar to that one were made ad nauseum in this thread, so I get it.
FWIW, I knew you were delivering the ironic straight line.I'm kinda sad you guys actually thought I was serious. Although arguments not dissimilar to that one were made ad nauseum in this thread, so I get it.
I feel shame.I'm kinda sad you guys actually thought I was serious. Although arguments not dissimilar to that one were made ad nauseum in this thread, so I get it.
This.Its fair to say that we have seen enough to know Mac Jones cannot win in the NFL without a lot of help. Unfortunately, if you want to compete for championships, the bar is a lot higher than that. QB1s, ideally, are difference makers (they can win despite subpar OL play and few weapons) and Jones is not that, at least not now.
In Mac's 35 starts, the Pats have averaged just under 21 offensive points per game (with a median of 18.5). This includes 54, 45 and 50 point showings in Mac's rookie year versus the Jets, Browns and Jaguars.Its fair to say that we have seen enough to know Mac Jones cannot win in the NFL without a lot of help. Unfortunately, if you want to compete for championships, the bar is a lot higher than that. QB1s, ideally, are difference makers (they can win despite subpar OL play and few weapons) and Jones is not that, at least not now.
Or his month…View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1708631863013654841
Mac Jones: Disappointed in myself. Wasn’t my day.
burrow is clearly hurtYou guys complain about Mac, but Joe Burrow - who everyone agrees is a top QB and has Chase and Higgins - only threw for 165 yards today, a figure Mac will surely pass. Makes you think.
The best thing that can happen is a total flameout and Belichick gets another shot next year with good picks and lots of cap space. At best (and I mean everything breaks right, which is pretty clearly not the case) this team is a fringe playoff contender, which really kind of sucks and is a road to nowhere. It's time to reset.In Mac's 35 starts, the Pats have averaged just under 21 offensive points per game (with a median of 18.5). This includes 54, 45 and 50 point showings in Mac's rookie year versus the Jets, Browns and Jaguars.
Since the offseason after Mac's rookie year (his last 18 starts), the Pats have averaged less than 17 offensive points in his starts..
It's impossible to sustain success in today's NFL with such meager offensive output.
We can blame the offensive coordinators, the plodding receivers and a porous O-line all we want, but it's pretty clear that Mac is also heavily responsible -- even when he has clean pockets and open targets downfield -- given his subpar mechanics, post-snap reads, ball velocity and decision-making. His attitude also leaves something to be desired.
Disagree about Baker 100%. He’s playing pretty well in Tampa and he’s better than Mac.Atlanta- Ridder is way worse than Mac, Heineke stinks too
Tampa?- Depends how you feel about Baker but he's probably worse on the whole than Mac
Pittsburght- I think Pickett is terrible, Trubisky is a real backup though tI guess.
I gave all the rookies a pass, as we always should.
It also sounded like he said "yeah" when asked if Mac would start next week, but I'm not 100% sure.BB says 'there was no point leaving him out there so I took him out.' Doesn't used the word 'benched.'
Burrow has been to a Super Bowl and AFC championship game. Marc Jones will be lucky to play in the Toliet Bowl. Thats a take off on an old joke Glenn Foley the BC and Jets Qb said about Rutgers football in the 90s. Anyway hopefully you were joking or being sarcastic. I didn't see LOL though.You guys complain about Mac, but Joe Burrow - who everyone agrees is a top QB and has Chase and Higgins - only threw for 165 yards today, a figure Mac will surely pass. Makes you think.