You’re acting like this is somehow unprecedented when nearly every offseason we see guys with player options opt in on the condition that they’re traded someoplace that they’d like to go. From Washington’s perspective he clearly wasn’t returning.
Kristaps Porzingis to Celtics!!!!!
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East comes down to if Jaylen can improve his ballhandling and the whole team not going cold from 3’s and figuring out a mid range game.
yeah this is a really simple read:
Last night the Clippers had some concerns, they delayed, maybe haggled, BOS moved on.
Today the Clippers leaked to Windhorst that "oh yeah really bad medical concerns nobody would have done that deal, we didn't screw up"
Celtics (or Brogdon's agent) calls Himmelsbach and says "might need surgery I guess but he'll be ready for the season either way, no real worry, Clips gonna Clip"
It's usually pretty easy to tell who is leaking and why
Yes.
They passed on the deal and messaged why. Then after its all done they soften the message. Teams do stuff like this all the time.
This is just my conjecture and maybe Brogdon is totally fine and the Clippers just got cold feet for a player who fits nicely in their rotation.
Yeah, because there’s no in between here, right? Like they needed more time that just wasn’t available to be certain? I mean unless this is the Story injury, what injury could he have to his forearm that is jeopardizing his next season? Even with that, he’s likely back the second half.
They needed to change the culture and this will be a big step. I felt most of the post season the C’s played better and smarter with White than Smart on the court.
I love Smart but he’s Trot Nixon to me, dirt dog hustler but a complement not a leading piece. KP if healthy is more than that.
I love Smart but he’s Trot Nixon to me, dirt dog hustler but a complement not a leading piece. KP if healthy is more than that.
Who knows what scared LAC off but is it really crazy that they would get a call from a reporter on the follow asking for clarification or saying that Boston told them that the deal fell apart due to a deadline and agreeing with that?
I think that's likely what happened. The Clippers want to keep their options open so they have an incentive to play nice here too.
As for Malcolm's health, who knows but it feels like he shouldn't be signing any long-term leases in Boston.
I agree. He was our only guard who was totally playable against any matchup in these playoffs. I'm for the trade but I'll say it again...I'll bet that come deadline time we are looking to add a versatile defender to our backcourt.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the Clips weren't willing to offer anything more than Marcus Morris and a filler salary for Brogdon and tried to use the deadline to force Boston to acquiesce. And Boston just pivoted to trading Marcus to Memphis for Ty Jones to facilitate the KP deal. So the Clippers (predictably) moved into damage control mode. Apparently the news that Brogdon has a chronic foot issue was news to Windhorst.
Maybe Boston takes a run at Bruce Brown over the summer? It looks like Denver, now that they have their title, are looking to shave payroll around the margins to account for the Jokic/Murray/Porter core.
with what? He'll have real offers, we have no way to make one, and can't receive him in a S&T
This reminds me a lot of the Brown convo from last year...
...& then he somehow only got $6.5m from the not-Celtics, thus swinging the balance of power in the entire NBA. Thx Brad.
Last summer was the time to go after Brown; Celts had landing on chasing Gallo (not an unreasonable choice). Brown will be too expensive now, sadly.
The way I am looking at it right now is that I'm ignoring the fact that Marcus is a bit of a unicorn in his ability to hold up physically against MUCH bigger guys, which is pretty unusual for a guard. If we can get a guy who is credible against wings and won't get roasted by quick guards that would be fine. Or maybe that guy is just a pure wing who can guard everyone a bit.
Denver, unlike Boston last year, could let him play a role that suited his game. So I think he might be amenable to taking Marcus's role this year.
Sure they can. It would take work, but they can. Jalen''s moving back to the SG spot with KP inbound and (possibly) another F coming in the draft as the 4th part of the 4/5 rotation (Prosper). So if they find a taker for Brogdon (say a deal with Houston, in desperate need of adults in the locker room), it opens up the 3rd G spot in their rotation and puts Boston back down at the luxury tax line opening up room for the sign & trade.
This is dumb. 'Zards are going full-on tank; while mid- or late-first round picks are nice, they aren't going to move the needle. What's going to move the needle is losing as many games as possible and getting (likely) multiple top of the draft picks.
Wiz fans should be excited by this. They really haven't been relevant for decades and for some reason, their owners have either decided or convinced that fielding mediocre teams is better than trying to get high draft picks. That seems to have ended - so good for them.
One thing I keep reading from fans hating this trade is that Porzingis will get annihilated on D by Giannis and Embiid in the playoffs. Is there any credence to this, Port Cellar veterans?
He is sort of a tweener that might struggle with GF's athleticism and Embiid's size/athleticism package. But then everyone does.
I understand the points of:
- Better to move Smart a year early rather than a year late
- We got a great player and huge value for Smart, might never be better
- We had time pressure on our side because Memphis needs someone on the court in October, which probably helped the value we got
- Gotta give up value to get value, there aren't a lot of Derek Lowe / Jason Varitek total highway-robbery trades out there.
...so I'm willing to be convinced we had to do this deal, that the team is better today than yesterday. But there's also a whole lot of Marcus Smart slander here, about how he was in "deep decline" or wasn't valuable on the court, and as a Smart stan, I won't hear it.
If you think he's a DPM ~2 player for the next few seasons, that's about the #35 player in the league, Jaylen Brown territory. If you think he's a 1.5 DPM player for the next few seasons, that's #50-60, Brandon Ingram / Derrick White / KCP territory. In no respect is he in "steep decline", and as someone who did a deep dive on those numbers and couldn't really find much beyond FT% that he's had problems with last season, I'd say the burden's on all these Smart slanderers to back up what they're saying. Because Marcus Smart deserves better than that, from anyone calling themselves a Celtics fan.
- Better to move Smart a year early rather than a year late
- We got a great player and huge value for Smart, might never be better
- We had time pressure on our side because Memphis needs someone on the court in October, which probably helped the value we got
- Gotta give up value to get value, there aren't a lot of Derek Lowe / Jason Varitek total highway-robbery trades out there.
...so I'm willing to be convinced we had to do this deal, that the team is better today than yesterday. But there's also a whole lot of Marcus Smart slander here, about how he was in "deep decline" or wasn't valuable on the court, and as a Smart stan, I won't hear it.
We're talking about a guy whose DARKO career curve looks like this:
If you think he's a DPM ~2 player for the next few seasons, that's about the #35 player in the league, Jaylen Brown territory. If you think he's a 1.5 DPM player for the next few seasons, that's #50-60, Brandon Ingram / Derrick White / KCP territory. In no respect is he in "steep decline", and as someone who did a deep dive on those numbers and couldn't really find much beyond FT% that he's had problems with last season, I'd say the burden's on all these Smart slanderers to back up what they're saying. Because Marcus Smart deserves better than that, from anyone calling themselves a Celtics fan.
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I don’t know much about Darko, but it was pretty clear watching the games he was nowhere near the defensive presence last year he was the prior few seasons. And any measure that has him the 35th best player in the league is broken. He was not even a better player than Derek White last season.
Most of this board was calling for White having minutes over Smart last season, and the Celtics seemed to play their best when Smart was injured and White was getting the minutes. I’m trusting my eye test, sorry. I’ll take 2022-23 White over Smart every day of the week.
People are making the leap from a guy who seemed to struggle a bit in returning from injury to 'in decline,' which smells like a bit of copium to me. If he's in decline the trade is a bigger win for the C's. If he bounces back and returns to form- something I'd have no problem betting on- then it's a tougher trade to swallow.
Copium? I am thrilled he was traded. I said a long while ago I wanted no ambiguity as to whose team this was and whose mold I want it in, and that man is Jayson Tatum. I think management has had a blind spot and even given too much deference to Smart for a while now. I think his value as a leader and “identity of the team” has been vastly overblown by media and fans, and I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if some people closer to the situation actually wanted it out of the locker room. Change is needed, we’ll see what happens.
Plus, I love the return.
By DARKO, there were some all-stars who were not better players than Derrick White (we can at least spell his name right, can't we?). That's not the measure. It's, where do you project Marcus Smart to rate out the next few years? There are plenty of Jrue Holiday / Tony Allen intense defender types who age perfectly fine into their early to mid 30s.
And if you don't care for DARKO, then RAPTOR had Smart as the #50 player in the league, at +1.4 (21-22: #19!, +2.8; 20-21: #105, +0.9 WAR). He had been projected to return to about a +2.3 rating, about halfway between this year and the previous DPOY year. They certainly didn't see him as falling off a cliff, even if 21-22 was a career year. Or if you prefer LEBRON, then they had him at +2.0 last year, +0.9 this year, #83 in the league (down from #41 last year, but up from ~#140 / +0.3 the year prior). None of that is "steep decline", unless you were expecting Smart to remain at a near-all-star level.
Look, I'm not arguing we shouldn't have done this deal. I'm saying the people arguing for the deal by saying that Smart either sucked or was clearly about to suck are contradicting the best statistics available, and saying so in defiance of those statistics. And if you're going to argue that, you need better than "it was pretty clear watching the games". We all watched the games too, y'know? Clearly that wasn't some sort of consensus opinion. And given what he has given this organization, he deserves better than that, to be kicked in the ass on his way out the door just because you didn't care for his vibes or something.
I love Smart but he had a pretty terrible playoffs. Harden had two ridiculous games and obviously Butler did whatever he wanted against Smart or White or Brown or Brogdon. I think White can hold his own against more players than Smart can.
I put much less faith in the defensive side of the advanced plus minus stats and that is as someone who generally likes these approaches a lot. He is a bigger guard who has lost some quickness and has a lot of nagging injuries. I definitely don't think 21-22 was a career year defensively, it was a lifetime achievement award that he got DPOY. Best case is he maintains his performance for a few more years, and I don't see that happening given the way his body has been going.
The recency bias thing is an out of control forest fire at this point.
Atlanta: 49%FG, 38%3PT 16/4/5 2Stl 2TO
Philly: 44% 34% 15/4/5 1Stl 3TO
Miami: 43% 36% 13/4/5 1 2
Clearly, he fell off during the Philly series after what was rumored to be an injury. But I'm not sure why the Atlanta series doesn't count. The rush to drive guys to the airport after a bad series like Tatum's finals last year or Brown/Smart's later playoffs this year is bizarre to me. And I like the trade.
Interesting tidbit from Aldridge's article on the Wizards re Porzingis extending:
https://theathletic.com/4632027/2023/06/23/wizards-rebuild-long-game/
Whenever I see Walton and Sichting's name, I think of Scott Wedman (former all-star and 3rd rotation guy. He was acquired earlier, but it was an interesting series of events involving Greg Kite -- who, if I read this correctly, seemed to have been traded for both Wedman and DJ?
From Kite's nba-ref page:
January 14, 1983: Traded by the Boston Celtics (as a future 1983 1st round draft pick) with Darren Tillis to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Scott Wedman.
February 7, 1983: Traded by the Cleveland Cavaliers (as a future 1983 1st round draft pick) with James Edwards to the Phoenix Suns for Jeff Cook, a 1983 1st round draft pick (Roy Hinson was later selected) and a 1983 3rd round draft pick (Derrick Hord was later selected).
June 27, 1983: Traded by the Phoenix Suns (as a future 1983 1st round draft pick) with Dennis Johnson and a 1983 3rd round draft pick (Winfred King was later selected) to the Boston Celtics for Rick Robey, a 1983 2nd round draft pick (Rod Foster was later selected) and a 1983 2nd round draft pick (Paul Williams was later selected).
Tyus Jones/Gallo/Muscala/#35 was a lot better than the Clippers crap (MaMo/Coffey/#30)
I'm surprised the Clippers blew up that deal (or maybe that was PR spin?) since Washington clearly got a lot more a few hours later. Also thought the 2nd option was better for Boston.
That deal probably wasn't on the table for Washington until the Clips reneged. I bet the original plan was to get Tyus and 1sts for Smart.
Yep. Brad probably had the Grizz/Marcus deal in his back pocket. Memphis clearly had demand/need for Smart once they announced Dylan Brooks wasn't returning & Morant going Jessie James
For what it's worth, I'm on Team InstaFace here as it pertains to Marcus Smart. I think Marcus is somewhere between the 50th and 35th best player in the league, and a borderline All-Star when he's at his best. I think his leadership was an absolute plus and nowhere near part of the problem with this team. I think he's one of the most underrated offensive players in the league, because people don't appreciate what a good passer he is and what a perfectly fine shooter he made himself into. His defense wasn't as good last year, by his own admission. Whether that's the start of his decline or due to injuries, we can debate, but it probably doesn't matter that much, as I think he profiles as a player that can't really afford to lose what athleticism he has. If Marcus can't get into the paint off the dribble and can't get up to close out shots the way he has in the past, he's a much lesser player. If the decline isn't here yet, it's damned close.
All that said, the deal is a steal on paper and they had to do it. Porzingis seems to have been written off; I wrote him off myself for a while. But he's just had the best year of his career, and while there's this idea floating around that big men are totally fungible, the truth is that a center who can space the floor AND protect the rim is the queen on the chess board. They're like a tight end who is a great blocker and a great, athletic receiver: they allow you to do so many different things offensively and defensively with the same group. Prime Al Horford was that guy, but he can't be asked to do that for 35 minutes a night anymore.
My head knows this was a great deal, but I do have an irrational fear about this trade. It feels like if the Red Sox had traded Dustin Pedroia. I can't help remembering what Brad said years ago about Marcus: if you trade him, you'll spend the next few years looking for a guy just like him. It does help that Derrick White is similar in a lot of ways, but he's not nearly the same defensive presence as Peak Marcus. If that guy is gone forever, and he might be, the trade is even more of a no-brainer. I just hope we don't look at it like the Perkins trade: a no-brainer of a deal on paper, that, however irrationally, fundamentally altered the fabric of the team in way they couldn't recover from.
All that said, the deal is a steal on paper and they had to do it. Porzingis seems to have been written off; I wrote him off myself for a while. But he's just had the best year of his career, and while there's this idea floating around that big men are totally fungible, the truth is that a center who can space the floor AND protect the rim is the queen on the chess board. They're like a tight end who is a great blocker and a great, athletic receiver: they allow you to do so many different things offensively and defensively with the same group. Prime Al Horford was that guy, but he can't be asked to do that for 35 minutes a night anymore.
My head knows this was a great deal, but I do have an irrational fear about this trade. It feels like if the Red Sox had traded Dustin Pedroia. I can't help remembering what Brad said years ago about Marcus: if you trade him, you'll spend the next few years looking for a guy just like him. It does help that Derrick White is similar in a lot of ways, but he's not nearly the same defensive presence as Peak Marcus. If that guy is gone forever, and he might be, the trade is even more of a no-brainer. I just hope we don't look at it like the Perkins trade: a no-brainer of a deal on paper, that, however irrationally, fundamentally altered the fabric of the team in way they couldn't recover from.
My head is with you. My heart is still broken, and I'm not sure I felt this way about any Boston athlete being traded away/released/walking before--not Manny, not Nomar, not even Pedro. Maybe Brady, but even there it was after a first-ballot HOF career, six rings, and 20 years in Foxboro. I want my teams' execs making decisions with their heads rather than their hearts, but fucking hell this still stings.
Creighton had me up until the part about the Kendrick Perkins trade looking right on paper. That didn't feel right even on paper for one second.
Marcus Smart gave everything he had to the Boston Celtics. The trade feels like a betrayal to me and I can only hope that it doesn't rip the heart of the team. I fear it will.
Marcus Smart gave everything he had to the Boston Celtics. The trade feels like a betrayal to me and I can only hope that it doesn't rip the heart of the team. I fear it will.
I would guess Morris or (perennial SoSH target) Delon Wright. Both guys are in the right range for a Grant S&T (he counts for 50% of whatever he signs for in matching) with or without a Champagnie, and I would guess the ask would be MOAR 2nds, which Brad just re-stocked. Also opens up Pritchard to be traded for a future pick or a young guy at wing or big.
Edit- couple reasons I would guess Tyus isn't coming here:
1. He makes the most money this year
2. He got moved by MEM because he wants to start.
3. His next deal is going to be over $20M likely, Morris and Wright will likely just tick right along in that range around the MLE.
Depending on what you think of him, Jalen Suggs is extremely available now also.
Are they also open to moving Cole Anthony, or just Suggs? Suggs is pretty interesting as a guy you could play as an understudy.