They must conduct an in-person interview. Frazier's first interview was a zoom call and did not fulfill requirements under the Rooney rule.
Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin
- Thread starter bsj
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What the fuck are you talking about? Have you read this thread, like, at all? There are a bunch of good posts talking about how structural racism works, it doesn't require someone to be making a decision consciously with race involved. And a bunch of white coaches were eliminated too? You should sit this one out.
Yeah. It feels like the sentiment of the board for the most part is to believe the NFL has a systemic racism problem and that Flores is to be commended for trying to do something about.
I hope that doesn’t change if Flores expresses a view that Bill is not above some of these systemic problems. Bill might be part of the problem. We all hope not in any pernicious way. Maybe just in the way that any guy of his age who came up through a certain system that he has never thought too much about might be. I am willing to be open minded about that.
What Flores is highlighting is quite obviously a problem, but we can reread BB's texts in a more charitable light towards the Giants and it makes sense.
He says "he hears that you are their guy". BB could have heard from sources that the NYG wanted Daboll, he was their "leader in the clubhouse" before interviews really got going. There's nothing wrong with that. Happens all over. Bill's guy tells him "Yeah, they like Daboll, gotta nail the interview though, and of course there are some other folks interviewing too."
His other text says he "thinks" they are naming Daboll. Again, reading it more charitably, BB simply got his wires crossed combined with strong old man text vibes...
He says "he hears that you are their guy". BB could have heard from sources that the NYG wanted Daboll, he was their "leader in the clubhouse" before interviews really got going. There's nothing wrong with that. Happens all over. Bill's guy tells him "Yeah, they like Daboll, gotta nail the interview though, and of course there are some other folks interviewing too."
His other text says he "thinks" they are naming Daboll. Again, reading it more charitably, BB simply got his wires crossed combined with strong old man text vibes...
Yes I’m referring to this specific Flores case. Obviously racism exists and does exist in the NFL executive circles. I am no way denying that. We had heard down hear earlier in the season of Flores issues with his GM about his QB choice on draft say who many (not here) are running their mouth accusing him of racism while assuming he is white and not recognizing he is the GM who hired Flores to begin with. These are workplace disagreements that seem to have nothing to do with race from my view. I don’t seen the evidence of his firing and his “sham” interview which may never even had taken place without the Rooney Rule mandating an interview being race related. Flores has just undermined his GM and was terminated as a large part of it……it shouldn’t come as a surprise that he isn’t a guy people are running toward to hire with these red flags now attached to him.
I have zero doubt that the Giants would bounce something off of BB. He is their de facto GM and has a history with the Giants. While they are his ‘opponents’ there is a lot of nuance into maintaining healthy relationships between competitors. Acting as a sounding board is one of those things. I have a pretty good network of ‘competition’ that I’ll grab lunch with every now and again. It’s better to be friends with the good players than enemies for no reason. There are enough coaches around, Daboll was not going to end up in New England under any circumstance so why not ask Bill what he thought? Bill has only upside in giving them his thoughts on it. And from the Giants point of view why not reach out to the most respected football mind in football when you are making an organizational decision as large as hiring your next head coach. Particularly since the guy running the show there now probably wanted a few outside opinions to illustrate that the hire went beyond familiarity or nepotism.
100% agree on first paraphraph. Flores is displaying a ton of courage in trying to make significant change. I just think his situation could be a poor example of it taking place.
That's the way I view it. I think Bill is open minded in the sense that he'll give anyone a chance who he thinks will help him win football games, and he's given plenty of minority coaches a shot on his staff over the years, and I'm sure he was very happy for Flores when he got the Dolphins job, and would have been happy for him if he had landed with the Giants. But Bill has been in and around the NFL his entire life, it is all he knows. I'm sure his network among NFL executives is without parallel, and his opinions carry a lot of weight, and he's played that network/back channeling game his whole life. Most people don't see an issue with it, I doubt Bill does and he probably doesn't give it a second thought.
100%. Bill has certainly helped the cause of black coaches, by having guys like Crennel and Flores as his DC. At the same time, hiring and promoting Steve has seemingly blocked Mayo from that same path.
Football nepotism sucks. If Steve is a great football mind he should go make his bones under someone else’s watch.
You say he's blocked Mayo, but he hired Mayo from a TV analyst role into a pretty prominent coaching position. Mayo didn't have to pay his dues for years and years before elevating. He was hired directly as ILB coach, not some coaching assistant. That was in 2019. He has now been the co DC in 2020 and 2021, so essentially one year into his coaching career he was a borderline DC. Whereas Steve Belichick was hired in 2012, so he worked for like 8 years on the staff before elevating to the same role. And now Mayo is getting HC interviews. They may or may not be sham interviews. But it seems like his career is on the upward trajectory, and that is a credit to BB IMO.
What could BB possibly have done wrong here? He’s not a decision maker in the Giants organization. He may (or may not) have made a recommendation upon request by the Giants, and he may (or may not) have recommended Daboll over Flores. But that’s neither illegal nor immoral nor racist - unless such recommendation was on the basis of race. That wouldn’t mean there aren’t systemic issues with the NFL hiring process but it’s really hard to find BB having done anything wrong here - by wrong I mean some violation of ethics or law or NFL rules or whatever.
You would like to think that desire to win and the heavy pressure of competition would level the playing field. That nepotism and cronyism would be naturally eliminated because they are not market efficient in a highly competitive market.
That’s a premise of the Rooney rule. Just get people access and the market will take over and fix the rest.
But the owners also have built in so much parity protection that it defeats the entire premise, even if it was sound in the first place.
That’s a premise of the Rooney rule. Just get people access and the market will take over and fix the rest.
But the owners also have built in so much parity protection that it defeats the entire premise, even if it was sound in the first place.
Yeah the only thing I could see BB being "guilty" of is trying to get Daboll out of the division. And even that seems unlikely on his part. He's just going to stand up for his guys and give good recommendations. Hell he recommended John Harbaugh to the Ravens even though Harbaugh was just a ST coach at the time. We also saw it with his letter to Trump or whatever. He's a pretty loyal guy who supports his friends.
Flores isn't saying BB did anything illegal, immoral or racist, or even wrong. Read (or listen) to what he said again. He said using recommendations like his for Daboll (assuming that is what happened) is "part of the problem". It is a view that is for sure outside of the mainstream view when it comes to making hiring decisions, it is getting pushback in this thread. But, I happen to agree with him. It doesn't help his legal case here because in his particular case Flores has probably just as much of a chance of getting a recommendation from BB as Daboll does. But the point he is making has nothing to do with his legal arguments.
Relying on recommendations for hiring decision is in general going to benefit people with more well developed networks, those people are going to tend to be white and male. There is really no denying this. The point he is making doesn't really have anything to do with his legal case, it is about the change he is looking to drive in the way the NFL operates.
Edit: He feels like he was not given a fair chance at the Giants job, and he's attacking all of the elements of what he perceives to be unfair. The sham interview process being one, the decision to hire Daboll as a package deal with the GM before finishing the interview process another, and BB's recommendation of Daboll another. I'm not saying he's factually accurate here, I have no way of knowing. But he's not saying BB did anything illegal, immoral, wrong, against NFL rules, etc.
In general, I agree with you. But when it comes to NFL hiring, how is that the case? You're not going to hire someone for your HC or OC or DC that has no coaching experience. So, you're going to call their former/current employers, which may be college or NFL teams. Daboll has more of a network than Flores because he's worked in more places, but that is specific to their individual situations.
If BB informally gives people advice, I’d expect him to be discreet. Seems more likely to me that someone talked out of school and he saw no harm in repeating it.
I think part of the problem is it also start to look a bit hypocritical of Flores when he starts bemoaning Bill giving an endorsement or feedback to the Giants on Daboll when he very likely benefitted from the exact same endorsement and treatment when he landed the Dolphins job.
You can’t start to cry foul when it goes against you when you were a-okay with Bill’s seal of approval a few years ago.
The initial note is pretty strong, BB congratulating Flores(/who he thinks is Daboll) on getting the job. BB is surprised that Flores(/Daboll) doesn't know he is talking about the Giants. Then after Flores(/Daboll) responds that he hasn't interviewed yet, he says "I hear you are their guy," and then after he realizes he's been text the wrong Brian, Belichick walks it back to "I think they are naming Daboll."
Obviously we don't see the conversations Belichick had with Buffalo / NYG people. But you don't send someone congratulations on landing a job unless you are pretty damn sure they have landed the job. He walks back the language only later in the conversation.
Sorry to reply to your posts multiple times, but your edit came after I first replied. I feel that this point is kind of weak. Flores knows how important the GM-HC relationship is.
Whatever holes and weaknesses Flores' specific case may have, man there are daily reminders of how just his overall cause is. It's looking more and more like the league is going to go 0-9 on minority head coaching hires this off season. Even with highly qualified candidates like Leftwich, Bieniemy and Flores himself still available. Just shameful.
One thing I'll note... if Daboll was the Giants guy, they can easily tell his agent he's at the top of the list and not worry about losing him while they do the Rooney interviews, then interview him last in person. All the agents and coaches know the system, and they all know that you have to interview two candidates in person. They also likely know that teams like to have the guy they already know they want go last so they can say.... "oh yeah we considered a bunch of people, but he just blew us away in the in-person interview".
Daboll and his agent are very familiar with both the guy who was doing the hiring, and how the process works, the Giants have no reason to be concerned that he's going to get snatched up if they wait a day or two.
Daboll and his agent are very familiar with both the guy who was doing the hiring, and how the process works, the Giants have no reason to be concerned that he's going to get snatched up if they wait a day or two.
Why though? What information would you be looking to get from their former/current employers? I think in the NFL it is even less needed than outside of the NFL, particularly for an offensive or defensive coordinator. Their work product is there to be evaluated, on tape. What information would you get from talking to BB about Daboll that you couldn't get from an interview plus an evaluation of Daboll performance as OC of the Bills by looking at the results on the field?
Like what could BB possibly say about Josh that would have put him over the top for the Raiders job that is not easily ascertainable by looking at Josh's offenses the last 10 years, or just by inferring that BB likes him because he's been offensive coordinator forever here.
I'd challenge anyone on the actual value of recommendations like that, as opposed to it being a lazy way to confirm what you've already decided.
I think Josh... well yeah he could tell you some things about their relationship if he was willing and how he interacts with superiors and his reports. Daboll though... he hasn't worked for Bill in 6 years, and wasn't even at the OC level, so how much is Bill telling you about him as a potential HC? Same to a lesser extent with Flores who is 4 years removed.
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/patriots/flores-giants-hired-daboll-with-bill-belichick-influence?utm_source=WEEI-FM&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WEEI-FM NEWSLETTER&utm_content=WEEI Daily Mashup 2-4-22&mi_u=1558937&mi_ecmp=WEEI Daily Mashup 2-4-22
“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”
Now Flores is losing me. I mean sure, there are influences.
But I assume Bill has said great things about Flores, Daboll, McDaniels and many other of his former staff members when they were up for jobs.
Flores has a legitimate beef in general but training his eyes on Bill to this extent seems misplaced and even stupid to me.
“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”
Now Flores is losing me. I mean sure, there are influences.
But I assume Bill has said great things about Flores, Daboll, McDaniels and many other of his former staff members when they were up for jobs.
Flores has a legitimate beef in general but training his eyes on Bill to this extent seems misplaced and even stupid to me.
Really? Being a head coach in the NFL from what I can tell is 98% of what happens off the field and 2% gameday stuff. I would never hire Josh just because his offenses look good - you'd want to know what Josh learned from his Broncos days, how he interacts with staff and players, runs meetings, interaction with owners, etc...a million things that have zero do to with the ability to scheme up a good offense and can only come from talking with people who worked with that person. Just like hiring any other high level person - you want to get the full picture, not just the publicly displayed information.
Asking former bosses for feedback is a back channel? Yeah, I am not sure I understand that one.
The point here is that in the NFL, as elsewhere, references from/affiliation with the right people/organizations/universities are not being used as a single datapoint in the decision-making process. They are not being used to tie-break among similarly qualified candidates. They are literally trumping other, potentially more objective, measures of accomplishment.
For instance, Daboll has never been a head coach. Flores just spent three years as a head coach, with two winning seasons for an organization that had been a laughing stock for a long time. That seems at least as important as what others who worked with both of them a few years ago may think of their abilities today.
The most frustrating thing about all of this is that the same teams keep making the same awful coaching decisions over and over, using the same obviously flawed methods, and keep getting the same shit results. Yet many on this board seem happy to defend those methods (not saying YOU are!), even as, in the next sentence, they agree that the NFL has a problem with not hiring qualified coaches of color. Could it be that this defense of a self-obviously flawed system for assessing talent stems from the fact that it simply seems “normal” to us? Many of us have acknowledged that we see it in our own work places. Many of us have acknowledged that we hire this way ourselves. And I’ll acknowledge that I have most likely benefited from this system in my life and career.
But what if (again, this is not directed at YOU) you not only didn’t benefit from this system, but you also were being actively penalized by it because you don’t look like the people who are in the right network? How would you feel about the system? It’s funny to read the concern trolling in this thread about how Flores doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions. That he’s lit his career on fire without realizing it. You know the kind of person who is willing to take a stand like this knowing FULL WELL the effect it will have on him? The kind of guy who is offered, say, $1.2 to $1.6 million to intentionally lose games and instead tells the owner of the team to go fuck himself.
Yeah, I just don't think you are going to really get an honest take on any of that stuff from a reference, and those questions are better answered by Josh (or whoever) himself in the interview process. Do we think BB is going to shit on Daboll or Flores or Josh or anyone else who has been on his staff and deny them a rare chance at a HC gig?
I'll walk my previous statement back a little, I could see some value in conversations like that. But I also see Flores' point as to why they are "part of the problem". On the whole I'd say the negative outweighs the positive if you are concerned about inequities in how the NFL operates.
As always on SOSH someone else says it way better than I have been able to. Great post.
How would you know if the boldest is true? (The “because” part of it, I mean.)
I think the assumption is being made that Belichick's recommendation had a lot to do with the Giants hiring Daboll over Flores. If the Giants asked BB about Daboll, I would expect that Belichick would give him a solid reference. Probably would have done the same with Flores, had he been asked. What's unknown is whether the Giants even asked Bill about Flores.
Flores loses me as well with his statements about Belichick. But I also think it may have been some clumsy phrasing on his part more than any animus towards Belichick's giving Daboll a solid reference.
Flores loses me as well with his statements about Belichick. But I also think it may have been some clumsy phrasing on his part more than any animus towards Belichick's giving Daboll a solid reference.
@Gash Prex says it pretty well - I think there is a decent amount of info to be gleaned from these conversations. It's similar reasoning as to speaking with college coaches and teammates of potential draft picks. All the info the teams need to draft players is on the film, right? No, because there's a ton of off-field things that matter, too.
I dunno, I think you can get honest takes from doing due diligence. A guy on my team interviewed for a different team within my company last spring. I was pretty honest about his strengths and weaknesses. He ended up getting the job. I don't see how it benefits BB to give a glowing recommendation and then for the guy to fall flat on his face. The Giants previous HC was Joe Judge, who came directly from the Pats with no OC or DC experience. Obviously they asked BB for his opinion on Judge. And yet, despite the Judge hire falling flat on his face, they still went back to BB to discuss Daboll. I'm guessing it is because he WAS honest and they can trust what he was saying. Otherwise why would they ask again?
No, wait, looks like the Saints might take one for the league:
View: https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL/status/1489408715497353216
"Saints have requested Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy for an interview, according to a league source. His candidacy is expected to receive strong support in league circles, including the NFL office "
In other words, Saints are about to blow it all up for a year or two, bring in the Black coach.
It's not just me that's saying this, Bomani Jones and Dominique Foxworth talk about this in Jones' podcast today.
How do you know the recommendations are pulling the weight? Seems to be that for instance Daboll's resume at Alabama, Buffalo, and his other stops are the key influencer. The Giants wanted an offensive-minded coach to help with Daniel Jones, Flores is a defensive guy, and Daboll had great success with Buffalo. Of course, they could have also looked at Bienemy and Leftwich. To me that is more of an indication of some sort of racism than hiring Daboll over Flores.
Similar story in Jacksonville, with Pederson being chosen over those same two guys. But Pederson does have a ring under his belt as a HC.
And then fire him when he goes like 4-22 over his first 1.5 seasons, due to no fault of his own since that team is in cap hell. Sacrificial lamb (perhaps like what Flores was supposed to be).
If that's the case, it honestly helps Flores.... they interview and hire a white offensive coach, and their Rooney Rule compliance is interviewing 2 more qualified on paper, but defensive coaches who are Black. If the argument becomes... well the white guy has a skillset we want so he was hired over those with HC experience... and you intentionally didn't interview any of the many qualified (and in some cases with HC experience) Black potential candidates with that skillset, it indicates that you interviewed the Black candidates as a sham, with no intention of giving them a real chance at the job.
What other ideas do you have for why, of the more than 500 head coaches hired in the history of the NFL, just 24 have been black? Seems like it’s either that the network that influences coaching hires overwhelmingly penalizes people who look like Flores, or that it’s an incredible coincidence.
Absolutely agree - I don't understand why they wouldn't have interviewed Bienemy and Leftwich if they wanted an offensive guy, so it is definitely at least some level of evidence that the minority interviews weren't particularly serious candidates.
So what you are suggesting is that the discriminate against him because of the color of his skin because of the cap situation?
Bienemy is one of the top tier assistants in the league. He’s done a really good job in KC. They need someone to turn the shit Hill contract into…not shit. He’s in charge of an offense currently that Hill could fit into (if he didn’t suck that is). He’d easily be my first choice if I were the Saints.
I have no idea if you are interested in an honest discussion about this issue, but if you are then I think it would be helpful to acknowledge that NO ONE is claiming that a process that eventually settled on Daboll over Flores is inherently racist. I challenge you to find a single person who has said that. The question at hand is whether the Giants decided on Daboll before even interviewing Flores. That is what Flores is alleging. And that is what others here are discussing.
I'm not suggesting that they SHOULD do that by any means! I'm suggesting that I can see it happening - "taking one for the league", hiring the minority candidate, and then firing him under the guise of performance.
They say that they want someone to work with Daniel Jones publicly, because they have to. Daniel Jones is a pile of crap and I’m reasonably certain that they know this. They could sacrifice Tom Brady on midfield and feed his blood to Daniel Jones and Daniel Jones would still suck. Daniel Jones sucks.
Of course I'm discussing this honestly. Clearly the fact that the Giants didn't interview Bienemy or Leftwich is a tell, moreso than hiring Daboll over Flores.
Very true. But if the one of the Giants' arguments is that they wanted an offensive guy, the next logical question is why they didn't interview Leftwich or Bienemy. I think this is a very strong point in favor of Flores if the Giants are making that argument.
As a note on the recommendation from Bill thing.......
If you're a well run organization why in the world would a primary point in your decision making be the recommendation from Bill?
1. The guy in question hasn't worked for him in 6 years, and when he did it was as a position coach.
2. You have a GM who literally just spent 3-4 years working with that coach and has a much better current view of how he works in a higher level position.
3. You took Bill's advice on your last coach who was an unmitigated disaster.
4. Basically all the coaches Bill has co-signed haven't worked out at all, indicating perhaps he is not a great judge of what makes a guy ready to be a HC (amusingly probably the most successful is the guy you passed over).
All this is beside the point though, people are getting too bogged down in trying to dispute small details based on assumptions rather than knowledge, and missing that there is a widespread pattern in the NFL coaching decision making on hiring (and firing) that certainly seems to indicate that Black coaches are disadvantaged in comparison to their (often less qualified and/or successful) White colleagues.
If you're a well run organization why in the world would a primary point in your decision making be the recommendation from Bill?
1. The guy in question hasn't worked for him in 6 years, and when he did it was as a position coach.
2. You have a GM who literally just spent 3-4 years working with that coach and has a much better current view of how he works in a higher level position.
3. You took Bill's advice on your last coach who was an unmitigated disaster.
4. Basically all the coaches Bill has co-signed haven't worked out at all, indicating perhaps he is not a great judge of what makes a guy ready to be a HC (amusingly probably the most successful is the guy you passed over).
All this is beside the point though, people are getting too bogged down in trying to dispute small details based on assumptions rather than knowledge, and missing that there is a widespread pattern in the NFL coaching decision making on hiring (and firing) that certainly seems to indicate that Black coaches are disadvantaged in comparison to their (often less qualified and/or successful) White colleagues.
I'm aghast at the reaction to Flores' comments.
"How about we let the resumes and interview process determine the outcome rather than the old boy network" isn't a controversial take. At least it shouldn't be.
Sure we ask around about candidates. Flores is saying that the interviews don't really matter if you're making decisions based primarily on the feedback from literal old boys.
"How about we let the resumes and interview process determine the outcome rather than the old boy network" isn't a controversial take. At least it shouldn't be.
Sure we ask around about candidates. Flores is saying that the interviews don't really matter if you're making decisions based primarily on the feedback from literal old boys.
But why would they do that? They generate tens of millions of dollars in revenue for an asset that is worth billions. They are going to hire the best head coach that they can find. Granted, they also signed Hill to a large contract so they may fuck this up too.
The Saints kinda suck but if Lightning strikes they may get out of this cap hell somehow. It’s not a team completely bereft of talent.