Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

Shaky Walton

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This is where those claiming racism often lose their audience.

We are a pretty progressive place. The sense of the thread is that people are sympathetic to Flores. That people in the thread believe that systematic racism is a thing. That people in the thread believe it is a problem in the NFL.

But a suggestion that our guy is maybe part of the problem? Well, then the conversation starts to turn a bit.

This is what happens. This is how it keeps happening. This is why it doesn't get better. Nobody wants to take a microscope to those they respect (or to themselves). Is Bill an overt racist? Doubtful. None of us (I don't think) knows him personally but there seems to be plenty of evidence not.

But is Bill part of the patriarchy that is the problem here? I know what we want the answer to be. But we have to be open minded and acknowledge that even though he's our guy, that he may very well be part of the problem. In fact, if Flores thinks so, Flores would know. For the same reason that when Flores says John Elway or Ross is part of the problem we believe it -- because Elway and Ross aren't our guys -- we have to be willing to not detach from the conversation when it's our guy that may be part of the problem. Wanting Bill not to be part of the regressive old boys network does not mean that he isn't. I'm willing to hear Flores out on that.

And we need to do that with ourselves too. We're mostly white male football fans here. Are we part of the problem? Can't be, right? Look how progressive we are in supporting Brian Flores here. (Narrator: yes, we're part of the problem)
This is not a want to be thing for me. Your post is incredibly simplistic in that regard.

Sorry but it is.

Bill gets a call on Daboll. What is he supposed to say? "Great coach, for a white guy"?

Fact is that Bill probably got called on many of the HCs who were once part of his staff. He got calls on Daboll, O'Brien, McDaniel and yes, BRIAN FLORES.

He probably gave glowing reviews on all of them.

Why does that make him part of the problem?

In our zeal to be cognizant of the very real problems of racism in the NFL, we need not check our brains at the door.

Giving a positive report on Daboll isn't part of the problem. It's normal. It's what Bill SHOULD do if he thinks Daboll is a good HC candidate.
 

cornwalls@6

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So what is Flores trying to say then? Bill gave him his first opportunity and promoted him over and over and and he ended up getting a head coaching job, one of 32 in the league, and if Bill's word is so valued pretty sure he must've said some good things to the fins about Flores before they hired him. What happened to him with the Dolphins sucks, the Giants making a mockery of the Rooney rule (if that's what they did) sucks, but insinuating somehow the guy who's given him all his breaks is somehow working against him now just really bugs me.
I think one of the reasons you're getting some blowback, is the tone of your criticisms of Flores have a kind of a " he should be grateful, and keep his mouth shut" feel to them. Which is in the neighborhood of some even worse dog whistles. I don't think you intend it that way, but that might be how it's playing. I will say, I don't think he and his lawyers have been particularly great on strategy so far. If a significant part of this suit is to heighten public awareness, and win some hearts and minds to the cause(which it has to be. Because it's 50/50 at best he would win a jury trial, and a settlement, which would almost certainly come with a non-disclosure clause, does the overall issue no good), then going after BB, and bringing up an absolutely unprovable accusation of John Elway being hungover at his interview 3 years ago, doesn't seem to be the best way to go about rallying public support for your case.
 
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Shaky Walton

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Asking former bosses for feedback is a back channel? Yeah, I am not sure I understand that one.
Back Channel is not a defined term. I think in this context it means exactly that. But if I am wrong, and there is some sort of other meaning that is relevant here, then so be it and mea culpa.
 

Awesome Fossum

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Flores is saying that ownership relying on the recommendations/evaluations of the current head coaches means that future coaches will continue to look a lot like the current coaches. That's hard to argue with.

I also think ownership seeking recommendations/evaluations from current head coaches, especially people like Belichick who know a thing or two about running a team, is completely reasonable and maybe even foundational to a well run coaching search. It seems almost irresponsible to me to not do something like that.

This is the knot we've tied ourselves into as a society. My company has a DEI committee and is ostensibly committed to diversifying our leadership and workforce. We also pay a significant bonus for employee referrals.

Breaking out of this cycle is going to require accepting that reasonable, non-racist individual decisions are resulting in inequitable outcomes and someone in power being willing to make a sacrifice to change it. For the NFL, I think I'd encourage the other 31 owners buying the Broncos at market rate, selling the team to a minority led ownership group, and eating the losses.
 

MegaBiffHead

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Flores is saying that ownership relying on the recommendations/evaluations of the current head coaches means that future coaches will continue to look a lot like the current coaches. That's hard to argue with.

I also think ownership seeking recommendations/evaluations from current head coaches, especially people like Belichick who know a thing or two about running a team, is completely reasonable and maybe even foundational to a well run coaching search. It seems almost irresponsible to me to not do something like that.

This is the knot we've tied ourselves into as a society. My company has a DEI committee and is ostensibly committed to diversifying our leadership and workforce. We also pay a significant bonus for employee referrals.

Breaking out of this cycle is going to require accepting that reasonable, non-racist individual decisions are resulting in inequitable outcomes and someone in power being willing to make a sacrifice to change it. For the NFL, I think I'd encourage the other 31 owners buying the Broncos at market rate, selling the team to a minority led ownership group, and eating the losses.
Immediately made me think of this: View: https://youtu.be/xpOY4u8hL_E
 

jcd0805

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I think one of the reasons you're getting some blowback, is the tone of your criticisms of Flores have a kind of a " he should be grateful, and keep his mouth shut" feel to them.
absolutely was not what I meant. I said if the Fins did him wrong, if the Giants did with a sham interview, then by all means go after them. I do not see how saying Bill giving teams input, when more than likely Bill gave input to the Dolphins before they hired him, is part of some nefarious plot to keep minority coaches down. Especially in light of the fact that BB has clearly shown Flores if you work hard and are good at your job you'll be rewarded, period.
 

cornwalls@6

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absolutely was not what I meant. I said if the Fins did him wrong, if the Giants did with a sham interview, then by all means go after them. I do not see how saying Bill giving teams input, when more than likely Bill gave input to the Dolphins before they hired him, is part of some nefarious plot to keep minority coaches down. Especially in light of the fact that BB has clearly shown Flores if you work hard and are good at your job you'll be rewarded, period.
Got it, thanks. And as I said in my post, didn't think your intent was otherwise. It's complicated invoking BB in the manner he did, IMO. On the one hand, the intent of his suit is to take on the entire system, and how it fails to produce more good outcomes for minority candidates. Certainly, the network of recommendations and campaigning by respected coaches like BB is part of that system. But, I tend to think invoking him on talk shows, given the role he has played in Flores career path to date, and making assumptions about what went on between BB and the NYG, is not the best approach to take.
 
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Ralphwiggum

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absolutely was not what I meant. I said if the Fins did him wrong, if the Giants did with a sham interview, then by all means go after them. I do not see how saying Bill giving teams input, when more than likely Bill gave input to the Dolphins before they hired him, is part of some nefarious plot to keep minority coaches down. Especially in light of the fact that BB has clearly shown Flores if you work hard and are good at your job you'll be rewarded, period.
It isn’t part of some nefarious plot. Nobody said that. I explained why Flores might think BB (or any coach) giving input like that is “part of the problem”. It does not require BB to to be a racist or for it to be part of some coordinated plot to keep black coaches from getting jobs. It might help to actually argue against what Flores actually said.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Got it, thanks. And as I said in my post, didn't think your intent was otherwise. It's complicated invoking BB in the manner he did, IMO. On the one hand, the intent of his suit is to take on the entire system, and how it fails to produce more good outcomes for minority candidates. Certainly, the network of recommendations and campaigning by respected coaches like BB is part of that system. But, I tend to think invoking him on talk shows, given the role he has played in Flores career path to date, and making assumptions about what went on between BB and the NYG, is not the best approach to take.
For the record I agree with this. I get Flores’ point and largely agree with him, but as evidenced by this thread in one of the few enclaves on the internet where you can even have this conversation, the point is too nuanced, people don’t want to hear that the way we’ve gone about hiring people for years might be flawed, and it ends up in “how can he call BB a racist!!!!” He should focus on the Ross stuff and the sham interview.
 

Jinhocho

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For the record I agree with this. I get Flores’ point and largely agree with him, but as evidenced by this thread in one of the few enclaves on the internet where you can even have this conversation, the point is too nuanced, people don’t want to hear that the way we’ve gone about hiring people for years might be flawed, and it ends up in “how can he call BB a racist!!!!” He should focus on the Ross stuff and the sham interview.
It might be that the NFL hiring practices have sucked for decades (we knew this long before this case) and that Flores might have done a terrible job advancing HIS argument in all this over the last week or so in that his larger points about NFL hiring were solid but the arguments he advances in his individual case seem a bit inconsistent and maybe not as strong as initially thought.

Flores followed the model in his career we would want all coaches to follow (working his way up, learning the craft, getting his first gig etc). As others have said he did either good in his first head coaching gig OR had some issues (not the obvious ones but failing to develop Tua or the offense much, the long losing streak early in the year, etc). I think the obvious sense among football fans was WTF when Flores was fired from the Dolphins, but to me it struck me as the kind of thing a shitty franchise does. He has been interviewed for most of the jobs out there and I think would have gotten one of the 9 or so that were open this year. If he didnt, he would be back at it next year as a favorite. This happens to many fired coaches - I think his reputation would have lead him to getting one this year or next. I also think given that most head coaches in the NFL are lucky to get two chances he could have enjoyed Miami cutting him a check, done media or coordinating for a year, and then begin looking for the right job.

I always assumed the Giants would hire Daboll because of Daniel Jones. Having more head coaching experience (Flores) might not have looked as good to the Giants when they desperately needed someone to turn chicken shit into chicken salad w Jones. When the lawsuit dropped, I was immediately pro Flores. I liked him in NE and I liked him in Miami. I think (or maybe thought) he had a very bright future in the league as a head coach. But....it is striking me that he is doing a good impression of what Bob Ryan once described (I think) Daryl Walker as "the arsonist" since he burned every bridge behind him during his career. I am not a lawyer, but the filing seemed to have little in it that was proof - it makes no sense to me that BB would direct or heavily influence the hiring of anyone on another team to the point where it could sync another candidate. I honestly cant think of anything we have seen that BB did that was actionable in any way. I work in an industry where hiring has been revamped over the last ten years - but I think everyone calls references. How could BB not be a reference for both Flo and Daboll?

I hope he comes back here as a DC or Assistant Head Coach this year. I also hope he avoids the Houston job with that snake Easterby.
 

BroodsSexton

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He has been interviewed for most of the jobs out there and I think would have gotten one of the 9 or so that were open this year. If he didnt, he would be back at it next year as a favorite. This happens to many fired coaches - I think his reputation would have lead him to getting one this year or next. I also think given that most head coaches in the NFL are lucky to get two chances he could have enjoyed Miami cutting him a check, done media or coordinating for a year, and then begin looking for the right job.
We know nothing more about the merits of this lawsuit today than we did when it was filed. It’s all speculation. But if the data holds, then the path referred to above would be the exception—not the rule. What makes Flores a leader is not being willing to settle for hopes and dreams, and sticking his neck out for what he thinks is right. Let’s be honest, if he thought he had any other plausible path, he probably would have preferred to take it, no?
 

jcd0805

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I hope he comes back here as a DC or Assistant Head Coach this year.
Did he not basically accuse BB of being part of the problem for minority coaches? After working for him since he was 23? Seriously doubt he’d want to come back to the Pats.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I honestly cant think of anything we have seen that BB did that was actionable in any way.
Neither can Brian Flores. This just illustrates how much of a PR blunder it was for him to mention BB. The comment really had nothing to do with his legal claims against the NFL. Yet it has caused everyone to go on tilt because (a) BB can’t be a racist, and (b) whats so wrong about giving a recommendation?

On the other hand given how much NFL fans outside of NE hate BB, maybe it is a masterstroke.
 

Jinhocho

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Did he not basically accuse BB of being part of the problem for minority coaches? After working for him since he was 23? Seriously doubt he’d want to come back to the Pats.
Well it would be a hell of a move by BB and Flores to put that behind them, but I agree its unlikely.
 

djbayko

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This is not a want to be thing for me. Your post is incredibly simplistic in that regard.

Sorry but it is.

Bill gets a call on Daboll. What is he supposed to say? "Great coach, for a white guy"?

Fact is that Bill probably got called on many of the HCs who were once part of his staff. He got calls on Daboll, O'Brien, McDaniel and yes, BRIAN FLORES.

He probably gave glowing reviews on all of them.

Why does that make him part of the problem?

In our zeal to be cognizant of the very real problems of racism in the NFL, we need not check our brains at the door.

Giving a positive report on Daboll isn't part of the problem. It's normal. It's what Bill SHOULD do if he thinks Daboll is a good HC candidate.
I'm also not quite sure what some people want out of this. It sounds like some are saying that this back channel communication shouldn't happen at all. I used to do a lot of hiring. Reaching out to contacts of mine who were former superiors was one of the best ways in which I got insight into potential candidates. If someone told me that I could only go by what was on their carefully curated resume and list of references, that wouldn't make much sense to me. Is this approach going to be biased towards people who are better networked? Sure. But what kind of network are we talking about here? Work, not social. Belichick didn't get this call from the Giants because he and Daboll shared stories over scotch and cigars at the country club. He got the call because of their experience working together. If you're applying for the job of Head Coach in the NFL, you'd best have sufficient experience to have grown a network of this kind.
 

Justthetippett

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I'm also not quite sure what some people want out of this. It sounds like some are saying that this back channel communication shouldn't happen at all. I used to do a lot of hiring. Reaching out to contacts of mine who were former superiors was one of the best ways in which I got insight into potential candidates. If someone told me that I could only go by what was on their carefully curated resume and list of references, that wouldn't make much sense to me. Is this approach going to be biased towards people who are better networked? Sure. But what kind of network are we talking about here? Work, not social. Belichick didn't get this call from the Giants because he and Daboll shared stories over scotch and cigars at the country club. He got the call because of their experience working together. If you're applying for the job of Head Coach in the NFL, you'd best have sufficient experience to have grown a network of this kind.
References are fine, but would you tell the reference the hiring decision before you told the candidates? The fact that BB knew before Flores is what makes the whole thing smell a bit.
 

djbayko

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References are fine, but would you tell the reference the hiring decision before you told the candidates? The fact that BB knew before Flores is what makes the whole thing smell a bit.
I’m not saying that. I’m addressing the handful of posts over the past few pages which imply - directly and indirectly - that this sort of communication shouldn’t happen.
 

Cotillion

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I’m not saying that. I’m addressing the handful of posts over the past few pages which imply - directly and indirectly - that this sort of communication shouldn’t happen.
And you really should be wary of that communication. How do you know what did and didn’t go on with that person and person you are reaching out to? No matter how well you think you know someone, you have no way of knowing what might have happened in the rough and tumble office politics world. What they may be shading one way or another.

but your second part you go into of course brings us right back to the crux of the problem “you’ve better have developed that network” when the complaint in this (and in broader business world more than people want to admit) is that network building is still vastly closed off and self reinforcing.
 

djbayko

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but your second part you go into of course brings us right back to the crux of the problem “you’ve better have developed that network” when the complaint in this (and in broader business world more than people want to admit) is that network building is still vastly closed off and self reinforcing.
Right. I was going to suggest that perhaps the problem really resides lower in the coaching development / feeder system if minority candidates aren't achieving this, but I left that out.
And you really should be wary of that communication. How do you know what did and didn’t go on with that person and person you are reaching out to? No matter how well you think you know someone, you have no way of knowing what might have happened in the rough and tumble office politics world. What they may be shading one way or another.
As to this paragraph, how do we know anything? If I only listen to the candidate and hear their version of events, how am I supposed to know that fits reality? All we can do is listen to people, ask questions, and apply critical thought. My expectation is that any reference is going to provide concrete examples of how someone did or did not perform their duties and not just vague statements like "He's a solid dude." And if that's all they have to say, then it's not very valuable. Does everyone do that? Perhaps not, but that's not a reasons to disallow seeking constructive feedback on individuals.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Yeah, I don't think it's illegal under current law. You can interview an unlimited number of white candidates. You can interview an unlimited number of any candidates.

However, I could imagine our current Supreme Court issuing opinions that would draw the Rooney rule into doubt under Title VII. I read a statistic once that the only time Clarence Thomas has ever sided with the plaintiff in an equal protection case, the plaintiff was white or George Bush. I don't know if that's actually true. But I think it does sort of encapsulate where this Court might be on these kinds of issues. I guess the ruling would be somehow that it violates Title VII to mandate that candidates of a certain race get interviews but not to mandate that candidates of other races get interviews.

Of course to challenge it you need a plaintiff. The number of while male NFL head coach eligible guys who have been screwed by the Rooney rule is not a particularly big group.
I think it would be hard to show standing and damages.
 

Eddie Jurak

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So, this lawsuit was covered in detail on the Opening Arguments podcast, and after listening, it seems like a much stronger (and more strategic) case than I had thought. For thise interested, it is worth listen - a great breaking down of the lawsuit in layman's terms:

https://openargs.com/oa566-explosive-lawsuit-against-the-nfl-details-racial-bias/

Some of the history in this complaine is utterly damning of the league.
In the 20 years since the Rooney Rule was passed, only 15 Head Coaching positions have been filled by Black Candidates. During that time, there have been approximately 129 Head Coaching vacancies. Thus only 11% of Head Coach positions have been filled by Black candidates—in a league where 70% of players are Black. With few exceptions, the Black candidates who have obtained Head Coach positions have been on a “short leash” and lasted for extremely short periods, while white candidates have much lengthier opportunities to prove their worth. In addition, upon information and belief, in general Black coaches at all levels are paid less than similarly qualified white coaches.
Despite the Rooney Rule, 89% of vacancies have gone to white coaches. The salary disparity claim is an easily discoverable fact.
Indeed, not a single one of the 10 Black Head Coaches hired since 2012 still holds his Head Coach job today. In contrast, approximately 25% of white Head Coaches hired during the same time frame remain employed as a Head Coach. Moreover, since 2012, Black Head Coaches have been fired in an average of 2.5 years, whereas (accounting for Head Coaches that are expected to return next year) white Head Coaches have averaged nearly 3.5 years on the job. Put another way, white Head Coaches are afforded an entire additional year to establish themselves relative to Black Head Coaches.
You get an extra year to prove yourself if you are white.
Moreover, since 1978, only 16 winning teams have fired their head coach (3%). Even though Black men only held a small fraction of the Head Coach positions during that time, an astounding 25% (four of the 16) of the Head Coaches fired after a winning season were Black. This statistic is even more remarkable given that there have only ever been 17 Black Head Coaches who have coached a full season, and four of them (23.5%) were fired after a winning season. In contrast, only 6.9% of white coaches were fired after a winning season (12 out of 174). Thus, Black Head Coaches are 3.5 times more likely to be fired even when successful.
You are much more likely to be fired after a winning season (as Flores was) if you are Black. Completely damning. I mean, one could always argue - and surely the NFL will try to argue - that "well, the team was above .500 but it wasn't building towards a chamionship winner in the way we wanted, so we had to make a change." But the numbers refute that. Teams don't make a practice of firing their white coaches after winning seasons as they do with their black coaches.
Moreover, unsuccessful white Head Coaches routinely get second and third chances in critical positions, including as a Head Coach or Offensive or Defensive Coordinator. Indeed, according to a 2021 NFL Diversity and Inclusion report, since 1963, 116 white individuals have been hired as a Head Coach or Coordinator after an initial Head Coach opportunity, whereas only 21 individuals of color have received the same second chances. The same report noted that only one person of color has received three Head Coaching opportunities, whereas 15 white men have received three Head Coaching opportunities (two of the 15 received four opportunities).
And you get extra chances if you are white. Our own coach is a second chance guy. The Black Bill Belichick (BBB) may never have been hired again.
The following year, in 2020, despite this discriminatory treatment, the Dolphins improbably won 10 games, narrowly missing the playoffs, and Mr. Flores was mentioned as a potential coach of the year candidate. In 2021, Miami again finished with a winning record, and fans, pundits and experts all agree the team played extraordinarily hard for Mr. Flores. Nonetheless, Mr. Flores was terminated just three years into his five-year contract with the Dolphins. He was told that he was being terminated for “poor collaboration,” which itself has discriminatory undertones.
Flores himself was fired after 2 straight winning seasons.
 

BaseballJones

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I said in an earlier post that it could be easier to point out the unfair disparities in a system by looking at broader trends, and your post above shows why. That is pretty compelling stuff.

But it makes the case that there is a systemic problem. It doesn’t show that in any SPECIFIC instance race is the - or even A - reason why a particular candidate got fired or didn’t get hired. And Flores is claiming that HE is the victim here. So wouldn’t he need to show that HE didn’t get the NYG job because he is black? That seems like a much much harder thing to demonstrate.

Edit: Flores is an interesting individual case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Flores

Got his first pro job at age 23 with NE. Moved up the organizational ladder. Moved up to linebackers coach and then, when Patricia left for Detroit, became the defensive play caller, but not the defensive coordinator.

Right after the Pats’ 13-3 win in the SB, he gets hired by the Dolphins as Head Coach.

So he got a HC gig on his very first try, without even being a coordinator first. He basically skipped that step in the process and probably leapfrogged several other qualified candidates who at least had experience as a coordinator. In fact, he got the job over Dowell Loggains, who is white. Loggains served as offensive coordinator for the Bears for a couple of seasons before interviewing for the HC job with Miami.

Now I think, personally, that Flores was a good bite by Miami and I think he did a good job there. Especially if the story is true that he was pressured to lose. But the point is, he got a HC job over a white candidate that had experience as a coordinator - something Flores didn’t have on his resumé. Not that having that experience is always necessary of course but if we are just looking at the “most qualified” candidates, I’m not positive that Flores fit that. I’m not sure he didn’t fit it but I’m not sure he did.

The point being that I don’t see a pattern in Flores’ career where he’s been held back by virtue of being black. And he’s claiming to be an aggrieved party on the basis of race here. Seems hard to *prove*.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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I said in an earlier post that it could be easier to point out the unfair disparities in a system by looking at broader trends, and your post above shows why. That is pretty compelling stuff.

But it makes the case that there is a systemic problem. It doesn’t show that in any SPECIFIC instance race is the - or even A - reason why a particular candidate got fired or didn’t get hired. And Flores is claiming that HE is the victim here. So wouldn’t he need to show that HE didn’t get the NYG job because he is black? That seems like a much much harder thing to demonstrate.

Edit: Flores is an interesting individual case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Flores

Got his first pro job at age 23 with NE. Moved up the organizational ladder. Moved up to linebackers coach and then, when Patricia left for Detroit, became the defensive play caller, but not the defensive coordinator.

Right after the Pats’ 13-3 win in the SB, he gets hired by the Dolphins as Head Coach.

So he got a HC gig on his very first try, without even being a coordinator first. He basically skipped that step in the process and probably leapfrogged several other qualified candidates who at least had experience as a coordinator. In fact, he got the job over Dowell Loggains, who is white. Loggains served as offensive coordinator for the Bears for a couple of seasons before interviewing for the HC job with Miami.

Now I think, personally, that Flores was a good bite by Miami and I think he did a good job there. Especially if the story is true that he was pressured to lose. But the point is, he got a HC job over a white candidate that had experience as a coordinator - something Flores didn’t have on his resumé. Not that having that experience is always necessary of course but if we are just looking at the “most qualified” candidates, I’m not positive that Flores fit that. I’m not sure he didn’t fit it but I’m not sure he did.

The point being that I don’t see a pattern in Flores’ career where he’s been held back by virtue of being black. And he’s claiming to be an aggrieved party on the basis of race here. Seems hard to *prove*.
The way he has pleaded his case, I don't think it turns on one particular event. Like, his claim is not "I wasn't hired by the Giants due to racial discrimination."
243. As described above, Defendants have discriminated against Plaintiff and the Proposed Class on the basis of race and/or color in violation of Section 1981 by (i) discriminatorily denying Proposed Class members positions as Head Coaches, Offensive and Defensive Coordinators and Quarterbacks Coaches, as well as General Managers, (ii) discriminatorily subjecting them to sham and illegitimate interviews, (iii) subjecting Proposed Class members to discriminatory retention practices and/or termination decisions, (iv) subjecting Proposed Class members to disparate terms and conditions of employment, including but not limited to, lack of opportunity and harm to professional reputation and (v) subjecting Proposed Class members to unequal compensation relative to their white peers.
244. Defendants have fostered, condoned, accepted, ratified and/or otherwise failed to prevent or remedy discriminatory conduct due to race and/or color. Each Defendant has actually participated in and aided and abetted the discriminatory conduct of the other Defendants.
245. As a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ unlawful discriminatory conduct in violation of Section 1981, Plaintiff and the Proposed Class have suffered, and continue to suffer, economic damages, loss of opportunity, loss of reputation and mental anguish for which they are entitled to an award of damages.
246. Defendants’ unlawful discriminatory actions constitute reckless, malicious, willful and wanton violations of Section 1981 for which Plaintiff and the Proposed Class are entitled to an award of punitive damages.
As has already been pointed out here, the Class Action is not likely to happen because there is no systematized way to award damages. But he's alleging more than "did not get one job" or"was fired from one job."

And his standard of proof is "more likely than not."

I think the Miami fact pattern alone seems pretty damning: 1. Hired coach, 2. Pressured him to throw games, which he declined to do, and to tamper, which he also declined to do. 3. Fired him after 2 straight winning seasons (something that just doesn't happen with white coaches). 4. Claimed he was fired because he was an insubordinate asshole. The concept of a coach deliberately throwing games is very much anathema to much of the sports media, the fan base, and to propsective jurors. Maybe less so in the era of "The Process," but I doubt they are going to find a jury who will think - this guy got fired for insubordinately refusing to throw games and break league rules." Give the demonstrated lack of opportunities for Black coaches, asking one to throw games is basically asking him to light his career on fire during his first season and with a shitty team. Is it really unthinkable that after hearing the whole case, a jury would not think "more likely than not they wouldn't have done that to a white guy?"

The "didn't have the coordinator title" in NE could be spun as another act of discrimination (gave him a de facto promotion to a more senior position without the title, salary, and recognition that comes with the actual job). On many other teams I think those facts along would be a slam dunk. Probably not with the Patriots, though, because my sense is that they have a well-established pattern and practice of giving young coaches the coordinator responsibility before the title.

Assuming that is correct, I think it is an illustrative example of the NFL's problem here. Let's say Flores made that claim against the Pats (not giving him DC title was discriminatory). They can say, "Well, in 2005, we did give a young up and comer (Mangini) the DC title, but we didn't do it with the OC title (McDaniels was QB coach) until the next year. Then , in 2009, when McDaniels left, we again didn't give OC to your young up and comer (O'Brien). Even in 2010 we didn't give O'Brien OC title, not did we give our up and coming defensive coach (Patricia) the DC title. O'Brien and Patricia both had the respnsibilities for 2 years before they got the title. Then in 2018 we did this with Brian Flores, just as we had done it with McDaniels, O'Brien, and Patricia. This wasn't racial discrimination, it is just what we do. Had Flores not gone to Miami, he would have gotten the title in 2019 or 2020. As things stand, we still haven't had an official DC since Patricia left." Probably convincing to a jury.

But I think Miami, and the league as a whole, would find it difficult to make that kind of case to defend itself against Flores' allegations. "Asking young coaches to throw games and break league rules, and the firing them after 2 winning seasons, is just what we do on this team/in this league" isn't going to fly. Especially if Flores' lawyers unearth pay disparities.

Of course, the NFL is going to want to settle this before it comes to discovery. How badly does Flores himself want to settle vs get discovery?

Edit: The Miami tanking thing seems really damning. Black coaches get less time (a whole season less) than white ones to prove themselves and fewer second chances. In Flores' first year, he's pressured to lose games intentionally - which means he's being pressured to take on what could be a fatal black mark on his career - either because his losing record puts teams off of hiring him or because word gets out that he tanked. In his second and third years he actually does put together a winning record and the team responds by firing him. I think a jury could be persuaded that this was racial discrimination.

Edit: One of Flores' bigger obstacles may be this (unanimous) SCOTUS opinion from March 2020 which found that to win on this kind of pleading, Flores must establish race as a "but for" cause of his injury. IOW, what happened to him would not have happened to a similarly situated white guy.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-1171_4425.pdf
 
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cornwalls@6

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Hue Jackson now completely back tracking on the idea that he was paid incentives to lose games. But still alluding to some plan Haslam had in place to tank, that he tried to talk him out of, and he has documentation of said plan. He’s really been all over the map on this. And I wonder if Flores and his team are starting to cringe every time he makes any public statements.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/05/hue-jackson-i-was-never-offered-money-to-lose/
 

Harry Hooper

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The fog machine is running full blast, notes Florio:

One of the most fascinating developments in a week full of them occurred when NFL Network, the media operation partially owned by Dolphins owner Stephen Ross, reported that an unnamed witness heard Ross offer former Dolphins coach Brian Flores $100,000 for each game he lost in 2019. The report, delivered on the air by Cameron Wolfe, became an article posted at NFL.com.

Now, the article is gone. The link is dead. The stack of news stories at NFL.com no longer includes it.

It’s unclear when it disappeared. I checked to see if it was still alive after Ross issued an aggressive statement late Wednesday, describing the allegations as “false, malicious, and defamatory.”
 
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pk1627

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I am so sick of blanket denials. They are hardly ever true and all it really means is “I am white, have money, have lawyers and the system is rigged in my favor.”

Every so often we need someone to stand up and say, “no more.” Flores has great worth and he’s been subject to times where he got an unspoken communication that he was worthless. No more.

Maybe this will be one of the handful of times that brings change.
 

terrynever

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49ers hired Anthony Lynn as Assistant Head Coach on Kyle Shanahan’s staff. Kyle was a ball boy on two Broncos Super Bowl champs that Lynn played on. His dad was head coach. Nepotism lives all over the NFL. Kyle got his job with SF right after helping to blow a 25-point lead in the Super Bowl as OC of the Falcons.
 
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cornwalls@6

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49ers hired Anthony Lynn as Assistant Head Coach on Kyle Shanahan’s staff. Kyle was a ball boy on two Broncos Super Bowl champs that Lynn played on. His dad was head coach. Nepotism lives all over the NFL.
I'm not sure I get your point. Anthony Lynn is black, got a job, maybe, because of a past association with Mike and Kyle Shanahan. Does that mean nepotism isn't a significant factor in blocking minorities from getting the top coaching jobs in the NFL?
 

Ralphwiggum

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I'm also not quite sure what some people want out of this. It sounds like some are saying that this back channel communication shouldn't happen at all. I used to do a lot of hiring. Reaching out to contacts of mine who were former superiors was one of the best ways in which I got insight into potential candidates. If someone told me that I could only go by what was on their carefully curated resume and list of references, that wouldn't make much sense to me. Is this approach going to be biased towards people who are better networked? Sure. But what kind of network are we talking about here? Work, not social. Belichick didn't get this call from the Giants because he and Daboll shared stories over scotch and cigars at the country club. He got the call because of their experience working together. If you're applying for the job of Head Coach in the NFL, you'd best have sufficient experience to have grown a network of this kind.
I'll give this one more shot then I'll stop as (a) it really has very little to do with Flores' case, and (b) I'm obviously pretty much alone on an island on this one. Checking references that a candidate provides for you is different than using your network to either find candidates for a position, or reaching out to someone in your network who you know has experience with a particular candidate without the candidate's knowledge. The latter is really where the problem lies, as those networks tend to be closed off, and overwhelmingly white and male. My assertion is your hiring process will yield a better candidate if you post the position in the right places, proactively look to get a diverse slate of candidates into the process, assemble the right interview team who knows how to conduct behavioral interviews, and judge the candidate based on those interviews and their qualifications. If that is done correctly and comprehensively, you shouldn't need to call your buddy who you worked with five years ago to get additional intel.

I get Flores' point but he screwed it up by seemingly placing the blame on BB. I don't think anyone is really saying BB did anything wrong here. Anyone who fields a phone call like that is going to give an answer. The issue is that the practice is pernicious to begin with, but it has become so ingrained in the way we do things, nobody sees it.

Lastly I will say that if you feel like reaching out to your network is a necessary part of the hiring experience then you should be proactively looking to diversify your network.
 

terrynever

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I'm not sure I get your point. Anthony Lynn is black, got a job, maybe, because of a past association with Mike and Kyle Shanahan. Does that mean nepotism isn't a significant factor in blocking minorities from getting the top coaching jobs in the NFL?
He got a job working for a guy who was a ball boy on his team 30 years ago. That was my point. Not a huge one. It helps to have a father who coached in the NFL.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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49ers hired Anthony Lynn as Assistant Head Coach on Kyle Shanahan’s staff. Kyle was a ball boy on two Broncos Super Bowl champs that Lynn played on. His dad was head coach. Nepotism lives all over the NFL. Kyle got his job with SF right after helping to blow a 25-point lead in the Super Bowl as OC of the Falcons.
And Troy Aikman said he’d choose Shanahan as his head coach if he could pick one guy!! Maybe I was dreaming but I swear I heard that before the latest blown game from Kyle.
 

BroodsSexton

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They’re trying to dull the statistics, and the many prior admissions that the process doesn’t work for black head coaches, by shifting the message slightly to “there’s work to do.”
 

terrynever

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You're making a point about nepotism in the NFL using the Shanahans, but I can't for the life of me understand how/why Lynn's hiring is part of your point in the context of this thread.
I was attempting to use a former head coach, Lynn, taking a secondary job to a head coach who was once a ball boy during two Super Bowl seasons where Lynn played a contributing role as a running back. Kyle was sure a quick learner! Does a Black coach get jobs handed to him by his dad’s friends in the fraternity the way Kyle did?
 

YTF

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I was attempting to use a former head coach, Lynn, taking a secondary job to a head coach who was once a ball boy during two Super Bowl seasons where Lynn played a contributing role as a running back. Kyle was sure a quick learner! Does a Black coach get jobs handed to him by his dad’s friends in the fraternity the way Kyle did?
Point taken, but IMO you've been more than a bit generous with the bolded.
 

terrynever

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Point taken, but IMO you've been more than a bit generous with the bolded.
True. It’s nice to see friends rise faster than you but it must hurt a bit, especially when the system is rigged in favor of the old boys’ club.
 

jose melendez

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Florio's claims, in and of themselves, probably wouldn't be enough to win in court, I imagine. But in an actual trial process with discovery, and the disclosure of documents and the interviews it entails, I'd be willing to bet there would be a ton of additional evidence. What's Troy Vincent going to say under oath? The NFL can't let this go that far--the league is too sleazy to handle it. They will either find a way to get it thrown out or they will settle for an ungodly amount of money, if that's what Flores holds out for.

The fact that Kapernick settled rather than take it all the way was so profoundly dissapointing, because it allows the bullshit to persist. But everybody has a price for the million dollar man.
 

Commander Shears

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I was attempting to use a former head coach, Lynn, taking a secondary job to a head coach who was once a ball boy during two Super Bowl seasons where Lynn played a contributing role as a running back. Kyle was sure a quick learner! Does a Black coach get jobs handed to him by his dad’s friends in the fraternity the way Kyle did?
Wasn’t Lynn just handed a job by a long term friend? This seems like a weird example.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Wasn’t Lynn just handed a job by a long term friend? This seems like a weird example.
Not to mention than he’s going off on Shanahan about being a “quick learner” when he’s been to multiple Super Bowls as either a coordinator or head coach.

And for “blowing the Super Bowls”.

I guess we’ll also say Montana is the GOAT as he never lost a super bowl while Brady did.

I said it in the other thread but the niners have a bi-racial OC, a black DC and now a black assistant head coach. This is a year after they developed the first Lebanese Muslim head coach (Saleh).

Shanahan is using his nepotism privilege for good.
 

sidewalkoaf

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They’re trying to dull the statistics, and the many prior admissions that the process doesn’t work for black head coaches, by shifting the message slightly to “there’s work to do.”
Shifting the focus a lot, I think. After seeing / hearing the same sort of statement from many ostensibly enlightened and well-meaning institutional leaders over many years, I’ve come to understand “we have much work to do” on diversity / inclusion as the “enlightened” leadership death knell for actual progress. The work never actually gets done, but the sentiment buys leadership more time with those who aren’t, themselves, being excluded …
 

singaporesoxfan

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I'll give this one more shot then I'll stop as (a) it really has very little to do with Flores' case, and (b) I'm obviously pretty much alone on an island on this one. Checking references that a candidate provides for you is different than using your network to either find candidates for a position, or reaching out to someone in your network who you know has experience with a particular candidate without the candidate's knowledge. The latter is really where the problem lies, as those networks tend to be closed off, and overwhelmingly white and male. My assertion is your hiring process will yield a better candidate if you post the position in the right places, proactively look to get a diverse slate of candidates into the process, assemble the right interview team who knows how to conduct behavioral interviews, and judge the candidate based on those interviews and their qualifications. If that is done correctly and comprehensively, you shouldn't need to call your buddy who you worked with five years ago to get additional intel.

I get Flores' point but he screwed it up by seemingly placing the blame on BB. I don't think anyone is really saying BB did anything wrong here. Anyone who fields a phone call like that is going to give an answer. The issue is that the practice is pernicious to begin with, but it has become so ingrained in the way we do things, nobody sees it.

Lastly I will say that if you feel like reaching out to your network is a necessary part of the hiring experience then you should be proactively looking to diversify your network.
What you’ve said is well-said, and I don’t really have much to add except to say you aren’t alone on an island here.
 

Cotillion

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I'll give this one more shot then I'll stop as (a) it really has very little to do with Flores' case, and (b) I'm obviously pretty much alone on an island on this one. Checking references that a candidate provides for you is different than using your network to either find candidates for a position, or reaching out to someone in your network who you know has experience with a particular candidate without the candidate's knowledge. The latter is really where the problem lies, as those networks tend to be closed off, and overwhelmingly white and male. My assertion is your hiring process will yield a better candidate if you post the position in the right places, proactively look to get a diverse slate of candidates into the process, assemble the right interview team who knows how to conduct behavioral interviews, and judge the candidate based on those interviews and their qualifications. If that is done correctly and comprehensively, you shouldn't need to call your buddy who you worked with five years ago to get additional intel.

I get Flores' point but he screwed it up by seemingly placing the blame on BB. I don't think anyone is really saying BB did anything wrong here. Anyone who fields a phone call like that is going to give an answer. The issue is that the practice is pernicious to begin with, but it has become so ingrained in the way we do things, nobody sees it.

Lastly I will say that if you feel like reaching out to your network is a necessary part of the hiring experience then you should be proactively looking to diversify your network.
Yes you aren't on an island on this at all.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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I'll give this one more shot then I'll stop as (a) it really has very little to do with Flores' case, and (b) I'm obviously pretty much alone on an island on this one. Checking references that a candidate provides for you is different than using your network to either find candidates for a position, or reaching out to someone in your network who you know has experience with a particular candidate without the candidate's knowledge. The latter is really where the problem lies, as those networks tend to be closed off, and overwhelmingly white and male. My assertion is your hiring process will yield a better candidate if you post the position in the right places, proactively look to get a diverse slate of candidates into the process, assemble the right interview team who knows how to conduct behavioral interviews, and judge the candidate based on those interviews and their qualifications. If that is done correctly and comprehensively, you shouldn't need to call your buddy who you worked with five years ago to get additional intel.

I get Flores' point but he screwed it up by seemingly placing the blame on BB. I don't think anyone is really saying BB did anything wrong here. Anyone who fields a phone call like that is going to give an answer. The issue is that the practice is pernicious to begin with, but it has become so ingrained in the way we do things, nobody sees it.

Lastly I will say that if you feel like reaching out to your network is a necessary part of the hiring experience then you should be proactively looking to diversify your network.
We often look at things/issues far differently but this post is so true. Most managers/directors are lazy in this respect. They don’t want to do the due diligence needed. Plus they don’t really want a diversity of race/gender OR ideas different than what they are (race/gender) but in my view mostly they don’t want ideas different than their own. In the case of the NFL we have a number of teams/owners that have the same people hiring that have been making bad decisions repeatedly for YEARS. A short list: Lions, Dolphins, Jets, WFT, Jaguars, Raiders, Vikings, Bears, Cowboys, Browns. Now add teams like the Broncos & Falcons that also appear clueless. Sometimes I truly think they don’t even want to succeed or like Jerry Jones & Daniel Snyder they really think they know best when clearly they don’t.

reminds me of stagnant “old school” companies in my industry I mentioned earlier. They don’t want a hint of a new way of thinking and certainly not from a 30 something year old black man. In my industry we get ZERO new faces and ideas. We get more of the same helping the old guys limp into retirement.

In the NFL if they do hire him, they fire him quicker and I’m sure he’s less empowered than good ol’ boy they know from previous time together.
 

Bread of Yaz

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I'll give this one more shot then I'll stop as (a) it really has very little to do with Flores' case, and (b) I'm obviously pretty much alone on an island on this one. Checking references that a candidate provides for you is different than using your network to either find candidates for a position, or reaching out to someone in your network who you know has experience with a particular candidate without the candidate's knowledge. The latter is really where the problem lies, as those networks tend to be closed off, and overwhelmingly white and male. My assertion is your hiring process will yield a better candidate if you post the position in the right places, proactively look to get a diverse slate of candidates into the process, assemble the right interview team who knows how to conduct behavioral interviews, and judge the candidate based on those interviews and their qualifications. If that is done correctly and comprehensively, you shouldn't need to call your buddy who you worked with five years ago to get additional intel.

I get Flores' point but he screwed it up by seemingly placing the blame on BB. I don't think anyone is really saying BB did anything wrong here. Anyone who fields a phone call like that is going to give an answer. The issue is that the practice is pernicious to begin with, but it has become so ingrained in the way we do things, nobody sees it.

Lastly I will say that if you feel like reaching out to your network is a necessary part of the hiring experience then you should be proactively looking to diversify your network.
Endorsed as well. And the take away is that changes such as this must start at the top of an organization or change will not come. At my law firm, our executive committee made D&I one of our firm's core values, always has several diverse members sitting on it, and established a D&I committee; the firm holds weekly and monthly events, extends scholarships to diverse candidates, and makes extra efforts to hire minority and women candidates. We had a woman managing partner for 10 years.

Now look at the diversity of the owners of the 32 teams. Real and lasting change wont come, unfortunately, until the make up there changes (SF being a noteworthy exception).
 

Ralphwiggum

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I appreciate the support here and am glad others see it. If any team in the NFL should re-think the way they select coaches the Giants are up there.

I’ll add that earlier in my career I was as guilty of this as anyone. Any time I had a position to fill I went to my network, and when I was interviewing I was looking for “fit” more than anything, which led me to build a team of guys I liked having a beer with after work. Not that I ever hired anyone who didn’t deserve it, but I wasn’t really giving different candidates an equal chance.
 

BroodsSexton

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In order for it to work on an institutional level, those in control have to prioritize diversity for its own sake. The thing is, a lot of people don’t actually believe that there is intrinsic value to diversity, which transcends an individual’s abilities. They believe the “most qualified candidate” line of thinking, which is some serious American Exceptionalism type nonsense.
 

BaseballJones

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In order for it to work on an institutional level, those in control have to prioritize diversity for its own sake. The thing is, a lot of people don’t actually believe that there is intrinsic value to diversity, which transcends an individual’s abilities. They believe the “most qualified candidate” line of thinking, which is some serious American Exceptionalism type nonsense.
Well that’s true but it doesn’t have to be that...nefarious? One could value diversity but value something else more.

Just to give a bit of an extreme example, if every NFL coach’s contract ended today and they were all free to sign anywhere, we wouldn’t blame any team in the NFL for choosing Bill Belichick over a minority candidate, even one as accomplished as Mike Tomlin.

And why? Because we recognize that a team’s first priority might not be diversity (even if they value it). They might have winning as a bigger priority. And I don’t know that we’d really blame any team for valuing getting the best coach they think they can get *for the good of the organization* over a broader commitment to diversity and advancement of minorities in the NFL or society at large.

This isn’t to say that there aren’t excellent minority coaches. As an obvious example, Tomlin certainly is. But we’d all agree that Belichick is better. Much better. And so not many of us would criticize a team for hiring BB over Tomlin, even though that’s hiring a white guy over a black guy.

And so even if it’s not Belichick, we don’t normally fault teams for making similar calculations and having similar thought processes.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Well that’s true but it doesn’t have to be that...nefarious? One could value diversity but value something else more.

Just to give a bit of an extreme example, if every NFL coach’s contract ended today and they were all free to sign anywhere, we wouldn’t blame any team in the NFL for choosing Bill Belichick over a minority candidate, even one as accomplished as Mike Tomlin.

And why? Because we recognize that a team’s first priority might not be diversity (even if they value it). They might have winning as a bigger priority. And I don’t know that we’d really blame any team for valuing getting the best coach they think they can get *for the good of the organization* over a broader commitment to diversity and advancement of minorities in the NFL or society at large.

This isn’t to say that there aren’t excellent minority coaches. As an obvious example, Tomlin certainly is. But we’d all agree that Belichick is better. Much better. And so not many of us would criticize a team for hiring BB over Tomlin, even though that’s hiring a white guy over a black guy.

And so even if it’s not Belichick, we don’t normally fault teams for making similar calculations and having similar thought processes.
There is a pattern and practice around how coaches get hired, how long they tend to be retained, how many get second, third, and even fourth chances, what level of success coaches have, and what racial disparities exist. That can extend further to high and lower level coaching and front office staff.

It's not too hard to look at an organization and assess whether they value diveristy based on how their hiring practices compare to those of the rest of the league.