Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
22,551
Newton
Well, maybe because he’s shown principle? I mean, giving up millions of dollars and a chance for a head-coaching job kind of seems principled to me.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
I'm not finding particular fault with Flores, I'm making your same point - he's no different than other coaches. Dealing with players like that wouldn't be a pre-requisite if coaches had ethical principals, but they often don't because they're single-minded narcissists. So if Brian Flores is like other coaches... why do we assume he's this amazing, principled guy?
Because his odds of winning his lawsuit are low (it isn’t a great case), and suing the league and a few of its teams won’t be good for his career prospects. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with him, but I think it’s hard to argue he isn’t acting on principle.
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
8,727
Needham, MA
How does the character of a person have nothing to do with their lawsuit? Or their credibility? Like not even to a slight degree?
Your argument essentially boils down to no NFL coach could credibly challenge the NFL in this way because they all lack character and credibility.

Flores sued the league and risked never getting another coaching gig, and left money on the table to do so. That’s not nothing. Is he an amazing principled guy? I have no clue. But you seem dead set on the fact that he is not for some very strange reason.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
652
Your argument essentially boils down to no NFL coach could credibly challenge the NFL in this way because they all lack character and credibility.
No it's not. My argument is that us sitting on the sidelines can have differing opinions about the information emanating from this lawsuit, and sometimes those differing opinions will relate to the degree of something's importance.

Flores sued the league and risked never getting another coaching gig, and left money on the table to do so. That’s not nothing. Is he an amazing principled guy? I have no clue. But you seem dead set on the fact that he is not for some very strange reason.
What is strange about saying, "I agree with the purpose of his lawsuit, I hope change comes out of it, but I find some aspects previously reported about BF disturbing and we don't need to ignore the latter to do the former." Like, in what other context are we just skipping over the Watson stuff? In what other thread would you be annoyed by someone pointing out, "hey, yeah, this one bit of the story where he doesn't care about sexual assault, that's a little problematic to me and it makes me question a couple things about his personality"? That's what's strange to me. At least be consistent.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
13,924
New York City
Now it seems like you're saying "change your opinion because it's not mine." Like, what is a neutral fact finder? Is that you? The fact that Flores was a longtime Patriots coach doesn't weigh into your opinion at all? If Rex Ryan was suing the Jets for unlawful termination and mixed up Woody Johnson with his lawyer in just the same way, that discrepancy wouldn't have the slightest significance to you?
A neutral fact finder would be the judge or jury who gets to decide at trial (or arbitrator if appropriate). I’m making an assessment of what that person would find which is different from what I personally believe (for example in deflategate I think a neutral fact finder might find that Brady was involved in illegally deflating balls even though i personally am convinced he didn’t). I’d like to think that I personally can differentiate between my preferences and what I think is analytically right-that’s my job so I certainly hope I can. And I guess at some level isn’t “you should change your opinion-which I was open to, listened to, and rejected-to mine” the whole point of message boarding
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
8,727
Needham, MA
What is strange about saying, "I agree with the purpose of his lawsuit, I hope change comes out of it, but I find some aspects previously reported about BF disturbing and we don't need to ignore the latter to do the former." Like, in what other context are we just skipping over the Watson stuff? In what other thread would you be annoyed by someone pointing out, "hey, yeah, this one bit of the story where he doesn't care about sexual assault, that's a little problematic to me and it makes me question a couple things about his personality"? That's what's strange to me. At least be consistent.
Because I don't think Flores' interest in Watson makes it more or less likely that he's telling the truth about, for example, Ross offering him a bonus to tank games.

If Flores was truly pushing for Watson after the allegations were out there (and maybe you can provide a link but you are assuming this is true and I don't know that it is), it makes Flores like most NFL coaches, so it sure seems like you are saying that they are all lacking in character and none would be able to credibly bring a lawsuit like this. Personally I find it distasteful and wouldn't really want to root for a team with that guy at QB, but I also recognize he's going to be playing for some team sometime soon, maybe next year, and I could see how a first time coach like Flores, knowing he may never get another shot at a head job if he doesn't win, would be willing to try to rehabilitate Watson and ride with him at QB rather than Tua. I don't think his willingness to do that, if true, has any bearing on whether he's being truthful about the allegations against Ross, the Dolphins and the NFL.

Has his team spun some stuff in the media in a light most favorable to his claims? For sure. But he's going to war with the NFL who we know are all too willing to go far beyond spin into "alternative fact" territory when it suits them. So I'll evaluate Flores' allegations on the merits as they come, but Ross, the rest of NFL ownership and the league are far more worthy of cynicism and distrust than Flores, regardless of what he thinks about Watson.

Back to the original statement that Ross presented him with the NDA, if it came from a Dolphins attorney or someone in HR how is that a factually incorrect statement? Ross may not have handed the document to him himself, but he's the boss directing these people on how to interact with the coach he's firing. I've said several times that the Dolphins absolutely should have insisted on the release before making the buyout payment if the contract entitled them to do so. But denying that Ross asked Flores to sign the NDA because someone else who worked for Ross did is a massive unforced error.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,553
CT
Back to the original statement that Ross presented him with the NDA, if it came from a Dolphins attorney or someone in HR how is that a factually incorrect statement? Ross may not have handed the document to him himself, but he's the boss directing these people on how to interact with the coach he's firing. I've said several times that the Dolphins absolutely should have insisted on the release before making the buyout payment if the contract entitled them to do so. But denying that Ross asked Flores to sign the NDA because someone else who worked for Ross did is a massive unforced error.
This is where our paths diverge. I might have been a little ham-fisted when I brought up Ross and the NDA, but Brian Flores was not. He’s a smart dude and he knows exactly what he’s doing here.

He’s painting a clear and vivid picture of “this old, rich white guy, that tried to bribe me to lose games, wanted me to keep my mouth shut to get my money.” That’s an easy image for a lot of people to grasp.

On Miami’s side, they’re going to say this is standard operating procedure and I would bet they’ll be submitting a very similar NDA with Adam Gase’s signature on it, and maybe even a Joe Philbin copy as well.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
I think the point being missed here is Flores stated publicly that Stephen Ross tried getting him to sign an NDA for his remaining salary.

This is sensationalist because Ross himself likely did not ask him to do this (Flores’ screenshots don’t prove anything in that regard) and this is also likely standard operating procedure in the termination of head coaches or high ranking executives.

In my mind, this is again undermining Flores’ credibility. This seems like him bending the truth a bit to make it seem like the owner didn’t want him speaking out about the things he’s publicly commented on.
You have previously limited your criticisms of Flores to contending that he somehow doesn’t understand the implications and consequences of his actions. Now you are arguing that he has undermined his credibility.

You say that facts matter. Here are a couple that are widely accepted to be true:

Ross offered Flores $100k for each game he lost during his first year as coach. An owner who does that wants the first pick in the draft, which typically entails losing 14, 15, or 16 games in a season. So Flores was offered something like $1.5 million to lose games. He refused.

When Flores was fired, he had to option to sign an NDA that would have paid him a severance package, but that would have prevented him from talking about what happened in Miami. He turned down the money.

Flores has demonstrated that he is a person who will not intentionally lose for money, and will not take money in exchange for his silence. This is someone who has enhanced his credibility, not undermined it.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
I might have been a little ham-fisted when I brought up Ross and the NDA, but Brian Flores was not. He’s a smart dude and he knows exactly what he’s doing here.
So Brian Flores is a manipulative PR mastermind…except for when he’s an easily manipulated naïf who doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions.
I understand that his cause is bigger than him, but whoever advised Flores to come out with this before seeing the Saints and Texans interviews through probably cost him dearly.

This statement doesn’t seem to be doing him any favors either.
I don’t necessarily think that Flores is handling it in a “douchey way” but I do think that he’s undermining his own case when he released that statement on Lovie Smith.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
40,728
Hartford, CT
Soden, you’re getting sloppy on us. Until the past week or so you were sure to take a moment to note in just about every post how very much you are rooting for him and wish his career weren’t over (oh woops!) before questioning some combination of his legal strategy, ability to work well with others, or credibility.
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
8,727
Needham, MA
This is where our paths diverge. I might have been a little ham-fisted when I brought up Ross and the NDA, but Brian Flores was not. He’s a smart dude and he knows exactly what he’s doing here.

He’s painting a clear and vivid picture of “this old, rich white guy, that tried to bribe me to lose games, wanted me to keep my mouth shut to get my money.” That’s an easy image for a lot of people to grasp.

On Miami’s side, they’re going to say this is standard operating procedure and I would bet they’ll be submitting a very similar NDA with Adam Gase’s signature on it, and maybe even a Joe Philbin copy as well.
This is all true, but so what? Yes, Flores is spinning a little here but it doesn't really matter and nobody cares. The fact that matters is he left money on the table to bring the lawsuit.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
24,904
When Flores was fired, he had to option to sign an NDA that would have paid him a severance package, but that would have prevented him from talking about what happened in Miami. He turned down the money.

Flores has demonstrated that he is a person who will not intentionally lose for money, and will not take money in exchange for his silence. This is someone who has enhanced his credibility, not undermined it.
Suing a league to extract more money than what you would have received in severance enhances one’s credibility? Considering his actions of undermining his GM which was the catalyst in him losing his job I question a lot of Flores decisions and ability to function in that role. I have no idea how anyone would gauge his level of credibility after he was fired…..it wasn’t like he walked away from a lucrative paycheck in exchange for standing up to his beliefs. He is literally trying to extract more.
 

Fishercat

Svelte and sexy!
SoSH Member
May 18, 2007
7,139
Manchester, N.H.
Suing a league to extract more money than what you would have received in severance enhances one’s credibility? Considering his actions of undermining his GM which was the catalyst in him losing his job I question a lot of Flores decisions and ability to function in that role. I have no idea how anyone would gauge his level of credibility after he was fired…..it wasn’t like he walked away from a lucrative paycheck in exchange for standing up to his beliefs. He is literally trying to extract more.
I don't think it's that clean cut of a calculation in either direction for the bolded (ignoring the rest of the post which I think is disputable). I feel like only the most optimistic and naïve person would expect to win this lawsuit outright - a nebulous claim with hard to prove financial damages against organizations that have no qualms at using an excess of legal resources for small potatoes - at most a settlement seem to be his financial "upside" on this and it's a high cost gamble between legal and time costs (he'd have the NDA money right away, it could take years to extract anything from the NFL or Giants). There's also the real lost cost of jobs. It seemed very likely that with no lawsuit or noise, Brian Flores likely gets another shot at HC this year or next year - the Miami firing was controversial before he spoke out. Him taking the NDA (I don't think we know how much that severance is?) and then getting a new HC job for 2022 or 2023 is a lot of real money left on the table.

If you're right and that his goal in this lawsuit is primarily to make money, he's taking a really big gamble to say the least for what I imagine isn't a great return.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
Suing a league to extract more money than what you would have received in severance enhances one’s credibility? Considering his actions of undermining his GM which was the catalyst in him losing his job I question a lot of Flores decisions and ability to function in that role. I have no idea how anyone would gauge his level of credibility after he was fired…..it wasn’t like he walked away from a lucrative paycheck in exchange for standing up to his beliefs. He is literally trying to extract more.
This is a ridiculous post. It’s been documented that Flores’ estrangement from the owner and GM had its roots in his declining, soon after taking the job, to throw games in exchange for $100k per loss. You completely ignored that part of my previous post, but boiled down, your take appears to be, “Well sure, they wanted him to throw games, but all their other ideas were awesome! But he kept rejecting them. Underminer!”

It’s been reported that the team offered him a settlement package upon his firing in exchange for his signing of an NDA that would have prevented him from revealing the details of his time in Miami. It was well within the rights of the team to make such an offer. Flores declined to take the settlement, just as he refused to collect an extra $1.5 million or so for losing games. That was his right. As was filing suit against the league not long after he learned that someone else had already been selected for a head coaching job for which he was scheduled to interview.

You have taken someone who has been treated wrongly—and who is part of a group that has been treated wrongly by the league since its founding—and created for yourself an image of a scheming manipulator. You present Flores as an undermining mediocrity who is angling to line his pockets with as much cash as he can. By this logic, he turned down the $1.5 mil to throw games not because he found it objectionable but because he had already forged a plan to decline a settlement offer three years down the road in exchange for suing the league so he could extract still more. Genius!
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
24,904
This is a ridiculous post. It’s been documented that Flores’ estrangement from the owner and GM had its roots in his declining, soon after taking the job, to throw games in exchange for $100k per loss. You completely ignored that part of my previous post, but boiled down, your take appears to be, “Well sure, they wanted him to throw games, but all their other ideas were awesome! But he kept rejecting them. Underminer!”

It’s been reported that the team offered him a settlement package upon his firing in exchange for his signing of an NDA that would have prevented him from revealing the details of his time in Miami. It was well within the rights of the team to make such an offer. Flores declined to take the settlement, just as he refused to collect an extra $1.5 million or so for losing games. That was his right. As was filing suit against the league not long after he learned that someone else had already been selected for a head coaching job for which he was scheduled to interview.

You have taken someone who has been treated wrongly—and who is part of a group that has been treated wrongly by the league since its founding—and created for yourself an image of a scheming manipulator. You present Flores as an undermining mediocrity who is angling to line his pockets with as much cash as he can. By this logic, he turned down the $1.5 mil to throw games not because he found it objectionable but because he had already forged a plan to decline a settlement offer three years down the road in exchange for suing the league so he could extract still more. Genius!
NDA’s are commonplace upon termination so not sure how or why you would go to bat with this “evidence.” The problems that Flores had with his boss was about control and wanting his voice heard in personnel decisions. The relationship with Grier had been broken for some time and really had nothing to do with whatever bs his owner threw out there but yeah he was fired for not throwing games. Lol
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
NDA’s are commonplace upon termination so not sure how or why you would go to bat with this “evidence.” The problems that Flores had with his boss was about control and wanting his voice heard in personnel decisions. The relationship with Grier had been broken for some time and really had nothing to do with whatever bs his owner threw out there but yeah he was fired for not throwing games. Lol
The point isn’t that he was offered the option to sign an NDA in exchange for a settlement. The point is that he declined to sign it. Which you told us just a few hours ago is part of his master scheme to soak the league for additional money you believe he is not entitled to. Lol.

Also, can you please explain how refusing the money to lose games fits in with his scheming to grab as much cash as he can?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
24,904
The point isn’t that he was offered the option to sign an NDA in exchange for a settlement. The point is that he declined to sign it. Which you told us just a few hours ago is part of his master scheme to soak the league for additional money you believe he is not entitled to. Lol.

Also, can you please explain how refusing the money to lose games fits in with his scheming to grab as much cash as he can?
Nice try. Where did I say this was his master scheme? The discussion was about his credibility which I stated that there was no basis for anyone to judge his credibility based on what we know now. We don’t even know about him declining the money…..could you share that evidence here for us?
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
You keep citing the pay for losing as 100% fact. Has anything come out to support that outside of Flores's statements?
Flores said it happened aboard Ross' yacht, and that the offer was made to him verbally. You are correct that Ross doesn't appear to have written it down, or if he did, that smoking gun has not been revealed so far. It is certainly fair to point out that this hasn't been corroborated by independent reporting and I will make sure to include the fact that this is what Flores claims from now on.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
584
Nice try. Where did I say this was his master scheme? The discussion was about his credibility which I stated that there was no basis for anyone to judge his credibility based on what we know now. We don’t even know about him declining the money…..could you share that evidence here for us?
Again, no evidence exists. You either believe him or you do not. I will make sure to point out that this is his claim going forward.
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
8,727
Needham, MA
Suing a league to extract more money than what you would have received in severance enhances one’s credibility? Considering his actions of undermining his GM which was the catalyst in him losing his job I question a lot of Flores decisions and ability to function in that role. I have no idea how anyone would gauge his level of credibility after he was fired…..it wasn’t like he walked away from a lucrative paycheck in exchange for standing up to his beliefs. He is literally trying to extract more.
If Flores was primarily interested in money he would have taken the buyout, signed the NDA and kept his mouth shut. He would have gotten a coordinator job or maybe even one of the open HC jobs, and either way had a reasonable path to a second shot at a head coaching gig in the NFL, which is where the real money is. Even if he did get his payout and he didn't leave money on the table to bring the lawsuit, he still most likely torpedoed his chances of ever getting a head coaching job in the NFL ever again. Plus, his case isn't that great and there's no guarantee he's getting anything from the league. There's no way anyone primarily interested in money would have chosen Flores' path.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
76,410
Oregon
The problems that Flores had with his boss was about control and wanting his voice heard in personnel decisions. The relationship with Grier had been broken for some time and really had nothing to do with whatever bs his owner threw out there but yeah he was fired for not throwing games. Lol
We don’t even know about his relationship with Ross and Grier…..could you share that evidence here for us?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
24,904
We don’t even know about his relationship with Ross and Grier…..could you share that evidence here for us?
There was a piece written last year that spoke about Flores forcing his voice on the organIzation and looking to run Grier out of town who he already knew was on the hot seat. Prior to the story coming out there was chatter down here about this occuring including words coming directly from the mouth of a former All-Pro Dolphins OL from the 80’s who still has close connections to the team. Hadn’t thought much about it at the time since I’m a Pats fan living in Dolphin country but it was (paraphraing) “There’s no room for two sheriffs. You got one who is and another who wants to be.” His name rhymes with Toy Coster. He was at my poker table with his ex-teammate, a WR that rhymes with Dark Muper, sitting behind him HAF.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
26,721
View: https://twitter.com/KVanValkenburg/status/1512100880417538048


So in this piece you get this tidbit....
View: https://twitter.com/minakimes/status/1512104962163023875


Nobody apparently heard this podcast so it never caught on nationally, but in 2020 Mike Mularkey mentioned on a podcast that he felt really shitty during his hiring process because the ownership told him he was being hired, then had to go do interviews to satisfy the Rooney Rule.
 

Steve Dillard

wishes drew noticed him instead of sweet & sour
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2003
5,491
That's kind of harsh. Dan Rooney was doing his best when he came up with the rule. Not sure his dad, Art, would have done this.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
That's kind of harsh. Dan Rooney was doing his best when he came up with the rule. Not sure his dad, Art, would have done this.
Pretty sure he was referring to Amy Adams Strunk, not Dan Rooney.

Relatedly, it blows my mind that the Titans broke the rules over friggin’ Mike Mularkey. Was he a sought-after candidate, the way that Brian Daboll was? Because while I can understand why someone might bend the rules to land a candidate that other teams reportedly wanted, doing so for a candidate who wasn’t the subject of much speculation would tend to show that clubs (or at least some of them) treated the rule as a total joke.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
26,721
Pretty sure he was referring to Amy Adams Strunk, not Dan Rooney.

Relatedly, it blows my mind that the Titans broke the rules over friggin’ Mike Mularkey. Was he a sought-after candidate, the way that Brian Daboll was? Because while I can understand why someone might bend the rules to land a candidate that other teams reportedly wanted, doing so for a candidate who wasn’t the subject of much speculation would tend to show that clubs (or at least some of them) treated the rule as a total joke.
he was their interim coach and had just gone 2-7 in that role... so no.
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
8,727
Needham, MA
Pretty sure he was referring to Amy Adams Strunk, not Dan Rooney.

Relatedly, it blows my mind that the Titans broke the rules over friggin’ Mike Mularkey. Was he a sought-after candidate, the way that Brian Daboll was? Because while I can understand why someone might bend the rules to land a candidate that other teams reportedly wanted, doing so for a candidate who wasn’t the subject of much speculation would tend to show that clubs (or at least some of them) treated the rule as a total joke.
Not only did they treat the rule as a total joke, it doesn't even cross their mind for a single fucking second that they might like one of the Rooney Rule candidates more than the guy they already settled on.
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
6,265
CA
More evidence that the children of rich people are the worst people.

Jonathan Kraft, take note.
Yeah, I think this is kind of harsh, and probably wrong. It is more likely that the chidren of the worst people are the worst people too IMO. The apple doesn’t fall far, and poor or rich, if you don’t teach your kids values, they will suck at life.
 

Average Reds

Dope
Staff member
Dope
V&N Mod
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
33,742
Southwestern CT
Because while I can understand why someone might bend the rules to land a candidate that other teams reportedly wanted, doing so for a candidate who wasn’t the subject of much speculation would tend to show that clubs (or at least some of them) treated the rule as a total joke.
The bolded is the key point, as it appears to be undeniably true.

Even if I assume that the Rooney Rule was instituted in good faith, it’s been clear for years that it has not been executed that way. Clubs do what they have always done (hire who they want) and then retrofit the process to comply with what they perceive as the letter of the law.

The reason it works is that the commissioner is their employee and his job is one of public relations. And fans don’t give a shit; they just want their teams to get better and so they blindly follow whatever path the owner/GM lays out because that is what it means to be a fanatic.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
11,496
guam
Yeah, I think this is kind of harsh, and probably wrong. It is more likely that the chidren of the worst people are the worst people too IMO. The apple doesn’t fall far, and poor or rich, if you don’t teach your kids values, they will suck at life.
Rich folks, huh?