This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The QB is the worst in the league and the worst in franchise history and he makes all the other players on offense look infinitely worse than they are. JuJu was fine last year with Mahomes as his QB. With Mac he looked terrible. Maybe he was toast but the terrible QB play from Mac hurt him a lot. Same for all the other skill players on the team.

No one is arguing that they have the next Jerry Rice on the roster. But the talent issue comes down to one position for the most part: the QB. If BB can be faulted on the talent level, that criticism should be mostly focused on the talent at QB. The QB he drafted with a high pick turned out to be a total failure. That deserves blame for both the coach and the player, but that doesn't NECESSARILY mean that every single other player on offense also sucks.

 

[lexrageorge]

The team is devoid of talent on offense, including the most important position on the field. Literally nobody is disputing that notion.

The team has talent on defense, and we will likely see at least some of the 2020 draftees be resigned here on that side of the ball (Dugger, Uche, Jennings are all candidates). Some of us believe that quoting a stat such as number of draftees retained for second contract, while a meaningful data point, also requires additional context, which can matter a lot.

 

[johnmd20]

Because you should really just focus on the last 3 years and if Mac Jones was not shit this year they are probably a playoff team.

So three years after a reset year with two playoff appearances would not be considered a failure.

Again Mac Jones sucks, so the record looks poor. It is not that hard. Maybe let's not throw out the greatest football mind ever because a QB no one complained about drafting turned into a bust.

But they aren't a playoff team this year, they have the worst point differential in the AFC.

So you're inventing a world where this team, with the worst point differential in the AFC, is a playoff team with a better QB? Seems convenient. Anyway, the QB falls to the talent evaluators. The Patriots went into this season playing Mac Jones, who is truly awful.

That still falls to the coaching. Worse, they fucking KEPT trotting him out there despite him being a mess and a shell of an NFL QB. Again, that falls to the coaching. And after they kept trotting him out, they trotted him out, again.

By then, the season was over.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The team is devoid of talent on offense, including the most important position on the field. Literally nobody is disputing that notion.

The team has talent on defense, and we will likely see at least some of the 2020 draftees be resigned here on that side of the ball (Dugger, Uche, Jennings are all candidates). Some of us believe that quoting a stat such as number of draftees retained for second contract, while a meaningful data point, also requires additional context, which can matter a lot.

I mean, I would argue that it isn't a meaningful datapoint at all. Re-signing tells you nothing at all about what the player produced or whether he is likely to produce positive value on that new contract. It's a pointless anecdote. A marginally better one would be whether the player got a second contract ANYWHERE, as that would let you know the complete busts (or injury washouts).

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But they aren't a playoff team this year, they have the worst point differential in the AFC.

Which is nearly entirely driven by two awful games against Dallas and NO where Mac was the QB. They were outscored 72-3 in those two weeks. Those weeks count, of course, but they play a disproportionate part in the point differential discussion. Apart from those two weeks the PD is -47 which while not great isn't necessary awful for 14 weeks.

 

[johnmd20]

The QB is the worst in the league and the worst in franchise history and he makes all the other players on offense look infinitely worse than they are. JuJu was fine last year with Mahomes as his QB. With Mac he looked terrible. Maybe he was toast but the terrible QB play from Mac hurt him a lot. Same for all the other skill players on the team.

No one is arguing that they have the next Jerry Rice on the roster. But the talent issue comes down to one position for the most part: the QB. If BB can be faulted on the talent level, that criticism should be mostly focused on the talent at QB. The QB he drafted with a high pick turned out to be a total failure. That deserves blame for both the coach and the player, but that doesn't NECESSARILY mean that every single other player on offense also sucks.

Juju had 930 yards last year catching passes from Patrick Mahomes. He had 550, 831, and 100 the previous three seasons. He has 260 yards this year.

Let's ease up on the Juju is good takes. Juju fucking sucks. He had one amazing year, in 2018, a lifetime ago for an NFL player.

 

[Silverdude2167]

But they aren't a playoff team this year, they have the worst point differential in the AFC.

So you're inventing a world where this team, with the worst point differential in the AFC, is a playoff team with a better QB? Seems convenient. Anyway, the QB falls to the talent evaluators. The Patriots went into this season playing Mac Jones, who is truly awful.

That still falls to the coaching. Worse, they fucking KEPT trotting him out there despite him being a mess and a shell of an NFL QB. Again, that falls to the coaching. And after they kept trotting him out, they trotted him out, again.

By then, the season was over.

It's the same argument over and over again.

You do not replace your 3rd year QB with a stopgap. You give him one last chance. And for all the complaining, once they found out that Mac was not the option, the best thing for the franchise was to keep losing. Maybe Flaco gets them to the playoffs, they get rolled in one of the first 3 rounds, and then have a shit draft pick. The world some of you want to live in makes no sense.

This team is 8-8 with below-average QB play and that is without going into the close games they lost to good teams. To say they are a playoff team or sorry a fringe playoff team is not a bridge too far in my opinion.

 

[johnmd20]

Which is nearly entirely driven by two awful games against Dallas and NO where Mac was the QB. They were outscored 72-3 in those two weeks. Those weeks count, of course, but they play a disproportionate part in the point differential discussion. Apart from those two weeks the PD is -47 which while not great isn't necessary awful for 14 weeks.

It's still pretty awful. -47 after taking OUT the worst two games is nothing to celebrate.

Worse, this team has not blown out any team this year. At no point did they have a dominating performance. Every win is by a FG or a couple points more.

This team also lost to the Raiders, Commanders, Chargers, and Giants.

And if this ALL falls to the QB, then Belichick should take more of the blame for giving Mac so many starts. That's a sign of a coach that can't adjust and is just staying stubborn for the sake of it.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Juju had 930 yards last year catching passes from Patrick Mahomes. He had 550, 831, and 100 the previous three seasons. He has 260 yards this year.

Let's ease up on the Juju is good takes. Juju fucking sucks. He had one amazing year, in 2018, a lifetime ago for an NFL player.

He JUST HAD NEARLY 1000 YARDS LAST YEAR.

 

[johnmd20]

You do not replace your 3rd year QB with a stopgap.

You're saying this team with average QB play has a playoff season.

So why do you not replace your horrible, woeful, and horrendous 3rd year QB with a stopgap if the 3rd year QB is one of the worst QBs in the NFL?

It's not like any QB drafted is a lock to be awesome. Look at the last few season's drafts. (Zach Wilson, Lance, Pickett, etc) You do your best every season.

This is all at odd's with each other. "Mac sucks, he's the worst ever, this team makes the playoffs with an average QB, but you play him anyway because you have to think of the future."

 

[BaseballJones]

I think it's crazy to say that BB can't adjust. They had to make absolute certain that Mac was not the guy. They gave him enough rope, and then that was it. I think this year, despite being awful, was what they needed. You draft a guy in the first round and you need to know for sure he IS or is NOT the guy. Well, they found out that he's not, and then they moved on. And they'd damned well better draft a QB (and not just a developmental guy in the 5th round) this spring.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's still pretty awful. -47 after taking OUT the worst two games is nothing to celebrate.

Worse, this team has not blown out any team this year. At no point did they have a dominating performance. Every win is by a FG or a couple points more.

This team also lost to the Raiders, Commanders, Chargers, and Giants.

And if this ALL falls to the QB, then Belichick should take more of the blame for giving Mac so many starts. That's a sign of a coach that can't adjust and is just staying stubborn for the sake of it.

All of which were started by Mac. Who sucks.

Again. No one is arguing they are good this year. They are bad because Mac was historically awful.

They had to figure out if Mac could figure shit out. He faced adversity and they gave him the chance to fight through it. He turtled instead. That is on the player. You can blame BB for drafting Mac on the word of his buddy Saban in the first place, but giving him starts and chances to work through his issues, on a rookie deal, is a smart thing to do. Once the Indy game came and went it was clear Mac was useless, so they benched him. And Zappe, while not great, has proven to be a better QB.

 

[johnmd20]

He JUST HAD NEARLY 1000 YARDS LAST YEAR.

930 yards is terrible as the number one WR option for Patrick Mahomes, who threw for FIVE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED FIFTY YARDS last year.

And you conveniently ignored the other 4 horrible seasons with your capitalization spurt.

edit - also, 930 yards means Juju was 2 games away from having 1000 yards. He wasn't even close.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

930 yards is terrible as the number one WR option for Patrick Mahomes, who threw for FIVE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED FIFTY YARDS last year.

And you conveniently ignored the other 4 horrible seasons with your capitalization spurt.

edit - also, 930 yards means Juju was 2 games away from having 1000 yards. He wasn't even close.

Yeah dude I'm done talking to you on this point. A WR getting 930 yards in a season isn't an awful season and everyone knows it. He was second on KC in receiving yards behind Kelce and 250 yards ahead of the 3rd place guy.

You tried to argue he had one good season 5 years ago and that's total fucking nonsense.

We are done here.

 

[johnmd20]

Yeah dude I'm done talking to you on this point. A WR getting 930 yards in a season isn't an awful season and everyone knows it. He was second on KC in receiving yards behind Kelce and 250 yards ahead of the 3rd place guy.

You tried to argue he had one good season 5 years ago and that's total fucking nonsense.

We are done here.

He was 24th in receiving yards in 2022, catching passes from the NFL MVP. It's not a great season. And that is his ONLY good season in the last 5 years. His amazing season was 2018, over 5 years ago. Which is exactly what I said.

You're changing my words and you're seemingly hitching your wagon to Juju Smith Shuster who has 260 yards receiving this year.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I said we're done here. DOPES! HE'S BAITING ME.

Wait. That's me.

I've made my points. I'm moving on.

 

[Cellar-Door]

930 yards is terrible as the number one WR option for Patrick Mahomes, who threw for FIVE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED FIFTY YARDS last year.

And you conveniently ignored the other 4 horrible seasons with your capitalization spurt.

edit - also, 930 yards means Juju was 2 games away from having 1000 yards. He wasn't even close.

Juju was 3rd in the league in success rate, 1st among WRs, he was 19th in Y/tgt 15th among WRs,

That's a really good year. He also had 300 less yards on 58 less targets in fewer games than Tyreek Hill (a top 2 WR in the league) had the year before. It was an excellent season.

As to 2019-2021....
2021 he missed most of the year with injury, nothing to see there.
2020--- he had 831 yards and 9 TDs, yards put him top 40 in the league, success rate was top 30 among WRs, top 15 in TDs, that is not by any standard "horrible", that's a good solid season.
2019- missed 4 games to injury, but he wasn't particularly good in the rest (if we want to give him some rationale, worth mentioning his QBs were Mason Rudolph and Devin Hodges).

So really when you say he had 4 horrible seasons, you meant.... he had 1 bad season, 2 good ones and one lost to injury. Then this year.

 

[twibnotes]

Because you should really just focus on the last 3 years and if Mac Jones was not shit this year they are probably a playoff team.

So three years after a reset year with two playoff appearances would not be considered a failure.

Again Mac Jones sucks, so the record looks poor. It is not that hard. Maybe let's not throw out the greatest football mind ever because a QB no one complained about drafting turned into a bust.

BB drafted Mac, no? BB hired the coaches to develop Mac. BB signed and drafted the guys to protect Mac and catch his passes.

Why is the “well if not for Mac sucking” an acceptable way to judge BB the gm? His offensive player personnel decisions have been awful for a long time, and Mac is part of that record, not some kind of exception to be tossed aside.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

And if this ALL falls to the QB, then Belichick should take more of the blame for giving Mac so many starts. That's a sign of a coach that can't adjust and is just staying stubborn for the sake of it.

This is what we’re all trying to come to terms with right? How could the smartest coach alive continue to roll this out on the field.

Hes never cared about the offense. They’re supposed to catch balls and not turn it over. Thats all that matters. One of the major themes of the Brady era was not being given better skill players. Doing that with Mac is nothing new. The offense needed to be good enough. So that’s what we’ve got. A bunch of good enough. With a completely milquetoast QB it wins games when your defense is among the better in the league.

 

[Cellar-Door]

This is what we’re all trying to come to terms with right? How could the smartest coach alive continue to roll this out on the field.

Hes never cared about the offense. They’re supposed to catch balls and not turn it over. Thats all that matters. One of the major themes of the Brady era was not being given better skill players. Doing that with Mac is nothing new. The offense needed to be good enough. So that’s what we’ve got. A bunch of good enough. With a completely milquetoast QB it wins games when your defense is among the better in the league.

Well, that's how they set the year up.... find out without any doubt if Mac is your guy, if he isn't don't try to be a 7 win team with a backup QB you know isn't the future but take the hits and set yourself up for the next guy who you think has a chance.

 

[twibnotes]

It's the same argument over and over again.

You do not replace your 3rd year QB with a stopgap. You give him one last chance. And for all the complaining, once they found out that Mac was not the option, the best thing for the franchise was to keep losing. Maybe Flaco gets them to the playoffs, they get rolled in one of the first 3 rounds, and then have a shit draft pick. The world some of you want to live in makes no sense.

This team is 8-8 with below-average QB play and that is without going into the close games they lost to good teams. To say they are a playoff team or sorry a fringe playoff team is not a bridge too far in my opinion.

Why not at least sign a viable backup?

If it’s bc that would put too much pressure on mac, then they should have known he wasn’t the guy before the first kickoff of the season

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why not at least sign a viable backup?

If it’s bc that would put too much pressure on mac, then they should have known he wasn’t the guy before the first kickoff of the season

It is certainly appearing that Zappe is a viable backup.

 

[johnmd20]

Well, that's how they set the year up.... find out without any doubt if Mac is your guy, if he isn't don't try to be a 7 win team with a backup QB you know isn't the future but take the hits and set yourself up for the next guy who you think has a chance.

You say this like hitting on a great QB is automatic in the draft. So why not throw away a season and just find the next Tom Brady?

Zach Wilson and Trey Lance and Bryce Young and Kenny Pickett (and even Anthony Richardson, who was solid in the games he didn't get hurt, which was 1) would like to discuss that with you.

 

[j44thor]

The problem with the offensive design is their ceiling was league average if everything went perfect. If rookie Mac was QB and Devante Parker played like he did 3yrs ago and Juju played like he did last season and Henry gave you a career year you have the offensive equivalent of DEN. Once anyone gets hurt or underperforms an already very average offense begins to look much worse.
Bill can still take lemons on defense and turn them into lemonade. Not sure he still knows the recipe for lemonade on offense or if he can even pick proper lemons.

 

[Cellar-Door]

You say this like hitting on a great QB is automatic in the draft. So why not throw away a season and just find the next Tom Brady?

Zach Wilson and Trey Lance and Bryce Young and Kenny Pickett (and even Anthony Richardson, who was solid in the games he didn't get hurt, which was 1) would like to discuss that with you.

No it is not in any way automatic, but you aren't throwing a season away really. The odds of having any of the vets who were available this offseason take over and make you a good team were very low. You probably didn't have a real shot at the top 2 (Brissett/Heineke) given Mac was clearly going to start the year as the starter. So you're looking at what... Case Keenum? I'd much rather my GM roll with his young backup who had a decent enough rookie year and save the $5M in cap space to roll over.

People really need to stop acting like Mac Jones wasn't the entrenched starter, or that they could sign a backup who was:
1. Willing to sign
2. Clearly better than what they hoped to get out of Zappe based on a decent rookie season.

 

[tims4wins]

The problem with the offensive design is their ceiling was league average if everything went perfect. If rookie Mac was QB and Devante Parker played like he did 3yrs ago and Juju played like he did last season and Henry gave you a career year you have the offensive equivalent of DEN. Once anyone gets hurt or underperforms an already very average offense begins to look much worse.
Bill can still take lemons on defense and turn them into lemonade. Not sure he still knows the recipe for lemonade on offense or if he can even pick proper lemons.

This post is bingo IMO. The dynasty era teams were the opposite. Injuries could only derail them to mid at worst.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

You're saying this team with average QB play has a playoff season.

So why do you not replace your horrible, woeful, and horrendous 3rd year QB with a stopgap if the 3rd year QB is one of the worst QBs in the NFL?

I asked this question the other day, and nobody responded.

If folks really believe an average QB would have this team in the playoffs, why the fuck are those same folks not advocating for Russell Wilson, who is by every measure, above average.

I mean, shit, based on this logic, that should be an automatic Super Bowl win.

It's fucking idiocy.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

It is certainly appearing that Zappe is a viable backup.

Bailey Zappe has a worse completion %, worse int %, worse success rate, worse passer rating, worse QB rating, worse sack %, and of course, the all important "less come from behind wins" this season than:




Mac Jones.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

I asked this question the other day, and nobody responded.

If folks really believe an average QB would have this team in the playoffs, why the fuck are those same folks not advocating for Russell Wilson, who is by every measure, above average.

I mean, shit, based on this logic, that should be an automatic Super Bowl win.

It's fucking idiocy.

Man, why do you have to be so abrasive when you disagree with people, it's extremely off-putting.

Russell Wilson is under contract for another team, how could we have advocated for him? Additionally, he's been pretty terrible with a very offensive minded coach, I don't think he'd be "above average" here.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I thought teams with QBs on a rookie deal were supposed to have some kind of huge advantage in building a roster laden with studs at other positions? Also, remember when Mac had a decent rookie year and everyone was excited to see if Mac could progress in year 2 and they entrusted his development to two retread BB cronies who had no experience coaching offenses or QBs and Mac regressed horribly? Also remember when Mac was going into his third "Make it or break it" year and they let the WR with whom he had at least some chemistry walk, brought in the corpse of Juju and gave Parker a new deal, and proceeded to use draft capital on a punter and a place kicker?

Yeah Mac sucked but there's something else that looks bad in Foxboro right now. I agree BB can still coach, particularly on defense, and the guys are playing hard for him which is something. But there's something else going on in Foxboro which makes me very hesitant to entrust BB with picking the next QB and building an offense around him (coaches and players) that don't suck.

Edit: And the special teams, one of the things that BB has always taken pride with, have been terrible for two straight years. Pointing to Mac as the sole problem with this team right now is absurdly reductive. He's a big part of it for sure, but not the only thing that is fishy in Foxboro.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Man, why do you have to be so abrasive when you disagree with people, it's extremely off-putting.

Russell Wilson is under contract for another team, how could we have advocated for him? Additionally, he's been pretty terrible with a very offensive minded coach, I don't think he'd be "above average" here.

Disagrees with me? I'm asking a very simple question.

There have been post after post after post in this and various other threads saying that this Pats team would be playoff contender with an average QB (not even above average).

Russell Wilson was just benched by Denver, they are clearly moving on from him because they need to blow up that whole team due to cap issues. There's an entire thread with pages of folks saying they don't want him, some of the same folks who say an average QB would have this team contending. Russell Wilson is better than average.

Why not him? He's likely going to be cut this offseason if nobody trades for him. The guy is top 10 in TDs, passer rating, TD%, INT% and on and on and on, behind a pretty bad offensive line, with a bad running back, no tight end, and one of their best receivers didn't play a snap for the 2nd consecutive year due to a preseason injury.

If the Patriots are THIS CLOSE to being a playoff contender, seems to me using the draft picks to shore up the offensive line, and get some playmakers and then adding Russell Wilson would make sense (if folks actually believe what they're writing).

 

[BaseballJones]

I asked this question the other day, and nobody responded.

If folks really believe an average QB would have this team in the playoffs, why the fuck are those same folks not advocating for Russell Wilson, who is by every measure, above average.

I mean, shit, based on this logic, that should be an automatic Super Bowl win.

It's fucking idiocy.

Wilson actually intrigues me. I have no idea why his career has kind of gone off the rails, but his statistical profile is really solid. Even this year, when he's been so "bad" that Denver isn't playing him (healthy scratch) the last two weeks just so they can cut bait with him, he's got good numbers:

66.4% completion (#10 in NFL)
3,070 pass yds (#19 in NFL)
26 pass td (#9 in NFL)
8 interceptions
98.0 passer rating (#7 in NFL)

This is a pretty good bounce back from his one truly bad season (2022). I don't know enough about him personally (seems to rub people the wrong way but I don't know why) or whether they'd need to revamp the entire system just to fit him (he seems like he could play in a variety of systems given his skill set). He is not Lamar Jackson out there but he can still run and move in the pocket, and he's pretty accurate at all levels. Give him a good defense and decent weapons and he'd probably be pretty good.

You could draft a QB in the second round and take your time developing him, while turning the team over to Wilson for the next 2 seasons. Draft MHJ or an OT in round one, a developmental QB with huge upside in round 2 (Penix, Daniels, McCarthy, Nix...whoever is available then) or go for a big time WR in round 2.

The team could get a lot better in a hurry. And with Wilson, it's not like he isn't a winner. He's 115-72-1 in his career as a starter. He went 12-4 with Seattle in 2020, and that team had an average defense at best (#15 in points, #22 in yards). The previous year they went 11-5 and their D was even worse (#22 points, #26 yards). So he can win with a less-than-great supporting cast.

So I have no idea what's happened with him, but he can still play.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bailey Zappe has a worse completion %, worse int %, worse success rate, worse passer rating, worse QB rating, worse sack %, and of course, the all important "less come from behind wins" this season than:




Mac Jones.

Have you actually watched them play? Of course you have.

Zappe is much, much better than Mac Jones. Much. They've won at a higher rate with Zappe this season, they score more points when he starts, and he doesn't throw off his back foot despite no pressure directly into the arms of DBs, unlike Mac Jones. He also doesn't collapse into a weeping puddle the moment something goes wrong like Mac, and he moves around in the pocket to extend plays and avoid pressure, unlike Mac who just fucking stands there.

This isn't remotely arguable. Zappe isn't good. But he's light years better than Mac Jones, who will be selling Fords at this time next year.

 

[astrozombie]

@BaseballJones - I'm not kidding, MHJ with the third pick and Penix sitting for a year behind Russell (assuming he comes to NE on some kind of discount) is a plan I can actually get behind. Assuming they use the rest of their money and maybe some draft capital to shore up the O line, I would be down for this. I don't think BB is going to do this (and as I stated on one of your other posts, I think BB will be back), but it would at least be something.

 

[Hoya81]

Disagrees with me? I'm asking a very simple question.

There have been post after post after post in this and various other threads saying that this Pats team would be playoff contender with an average QB (not even above average).

Russell Wilson was just benched by Denver, they are clearly moving on from him because they need to blow up that whole team due to cap issues. There's an entire thread with pages of folks saying they don't want him, some of the same folks who say an average QB would have this team contending. Russell Wilson is better than average.

Why not him? He's likely going to be cut this offseason if nobody trades for him. The guy is top 10 in TDs, passer rating, TD%, INT% and on and on and on, behind a pretty bad offensive line, with a bad running back, no tight end, and one of their best receivers didn't play a snap for the 2nd consecutive year due to a preseason injury.

If the Patriots are THIS CLOSE to being a playoff contender, seems to me using the draft picks to shore up the offensive line, and get some playmakers and then adding Russell Wilson would make sense (if folks actually believe what they're writing).

I don’t think Wilson is the answer, but I’m intrigued by Minshew or Baker coming in and filling out the rest of the offense via the draft. Both are still relatively young and likely wouldn’t be as expensive as Russ or Cousins.

 

[cshea]

It probably depends on how you want to define "playoff contention" but they probably have 3-5 more wins with average QB play. Las Vegas, Washington, Indy, New York Giants, Los Angeles Chargers were all games that were winable if not for abysmal QB play. Don't get them all but also maybe pick up another one of the close ones like the Eagles, Dolphins and Bills.

I think if you dropped Russ in there and all else stayed the same they'd probably be right around the 7-9 / 9-7 range.

 

[BaseballJones]

Points scored in Mac's and Zappe's starts this year:

Mac: 20, 17, 15, 3, 0, 17, 29, 17, 17, 6, 7 = 148 = 13.5
Zappe: 0, 21, 17, 26, 21 = 85 = 17.0

But in Zappe's starts:

- 11 yard TD drive vs. Pit following a turnover
- 29 yard TD drive vs KC following a turnover when the game was already a lost cause late in the 4th Q
- 98 yard TD on opening kickoff by NE

So that's 21 points that, yes, NE scored in games when Zappe started, but he really shouldn't get too much credit for them. Even if you just take away the kickoff return, that's 78 points scored over 5 games, which is 15.6 points a game - yes still more than with Mac, but not really enough to add any wins.

In the last 5 Mac starts vs. Zappe's 5 starts, total yards per game:

- Last 5 Mac starts: 306.4
- First 5 Zappe starts: 269.8

In the last 5 Mac starts vs. Zappe's 5 starts, total first downs per game:

- Last 5 Mac starts: 18.2
- First 5 Zappe starts: 13.0

I mean, it's not like Zappe is actually moving the ball better than Mac, and if it wasn't for the defense getting them much better field position (or special teams actually scoring points), it's not even clear that the Pats under Zappe would be scoring more points a game than they did under Mac.

But I think Zappe LOOKS better anyway - seems to move better in the pocket and has an ability to overcome mistakes. But let's not pretend for a second that Zappe has been "much better" than Mac. He hasn't. Like, not at all. Maybe - MAYBE - a little better. But that's it. Unless Zappe has some supernatural ability to make other guys on his team (including special teams) play better too.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I just know that I'd rather watch Zappe start and play than Mac every single time. Zappe actually looks like a real NFL QB, albeit a marginal one. Mac looks like a guy grabbed off the street. One of these guys actually keeps his eyes downfield when under the rush. The other goes weak in the knees and panics.

Give me a QB that has the hockey goalie mentality of forgetting about mistakes and getting ready for the next play. Mac couldn't do that. The NYG and IND games were crimes against humanity from a QB play standpoint.

 

[johnmd20]

I don’t think Wilson is the answer, but I’m intrigued by Minshew or Baker coming in and filling out the rest of the offense via the draft. Both are still relatively young and likely wouldn’t be as expensive as Russ or Cousins.

TB would be crazy not to keep Baker and he probably wants to stay there, too. Why would he leave Mike Evans, White, and Godwin to come to NE to throw to Thornton and Boutte?

Minshew is always possible because he probably just wants to start and he's not the long term plan in Indy.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

What the heck does clamoring over Russel Wilson for next year have anything to do with what happened this year? I’m not even sure the goal posts are in the same stadium at this point.
What’s the question? Would Russ make this team a “playoff contender?” Yes. He is a better QB than what we have rostered. His mobility would have helped in the beginning of the year when our line was hurt. Where’s the gotcha??
Why aren’t we all pinning our ears back and going after him or Cousins? Because they are uninspiring. They give you nothing beyond 2024 and even thats assuming they don’t fall off a cliff.

 

[johnmd20]

Man, why do you have to be so abrasive when you disagree with people, it's extremely off-putting.

Russell Wilson is under contract for another team, how could we have advocated for him? Additionally, he's been pretty terrible with a very offensive minded coach, I don't think he'd be "above average" here.

"pretty terrible?"

That's a dramatic leap that ignores everything like statistics.

Anyway, you claiming someone is abrasive and off putting is as rich as Jeff Bezos.

 

[DJnVa]

It's still pretty awful. -47 after taking OUT the worst two games is nothing to celebrate.

Yeah, we'd still be 25th.

If we took out the Chargers 2 worst games we'd be 26th. If we took out the Titans 2 worst we'd be 27th. If we took out the Jets 2 worst we'd be 28th.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Disagrees with me? I'm asking a very simple question.

I wasn't talking just about your Russell question, but you know that.

It's ok for people to have differences of opinion and not be called idiotic and antagonized. You're passionate, and that's ok, but you can accept that other people are also valid and have correct points.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Have you actually watched them play? Of course you have.

Zappe is much, much better than Mac Jones. Much. They've won at a higher rate with Zappe this season, they score more points when he starts, and he doesn't throw off his back foot despite no pressure directly into the arms of DBs, unlike Mac Jones. He also doesn't collapse into a weeping puddle the moment something goes wrong like Mac, and he moves around in the pocket to extend plays and avoid pressure, unlike Mac who just fucking stands there.

This isn't remotely arguable. Zappe isn't good. But he's light years better than Mac Jones, who will be selling Fords at this time next year.

I've watched them both play every snap they've ever played, yes.

And I've watched you make excuses for Bailey Zappe over and over again while shitting on Mac for the same mistakes.

Zappe is not better than Mac, and Mac is not better than Zappe. They both fucking suck. It's that simple, but it's the never ending stream of contradictory thoughts that make me respond.

Zappe digs a hole for himself, and then shows up in the 2nd half. You praise him, as "standing in there" or whatever it is.

When the Pats fell behind 16-0 to the Eagles in week one, and then Mac went for 300 yards and 3tds. Did you give Mac any credit?

In week 2, when they were down 17-3 to the Dolphins, and Mac led the Pats on 2 fourth quarter touchdown drives, and put them in a position to win but came up short, how did you react?

They fell behind 13-3 to the Raiders, they had the ball with a chance at the end, Mac threw a dime to Parker who dropped it. Instead, we blamed Mac for taking a safety when Gesicki couldn't fucking stand up right on his blocking assignment.

Mac stood in there just fine leading them to a win against Buffalo in the final minutes.

When the Pats fell behind 22-0 last year to Cincy, was that Mac "gutting it out and standing in there" to bring them back to a chance to a win, until Rhamondre put the ball on the ground in the red zone, or is that something he literally cannot do, as you write?



Light years ahead of Mac? I see no difference, except in your reactions to them. Wonder why Bailey wasn't able to stand in there and score a single fucking point against the Chargers?

Zappe has now started 5 consecutive games. After next week, he will have started 1/3rd of the Pats games this season, with results that are no different than Mac. You've claimed hundreds of times that wins are the most important thing (remember, Mac sucks because he can't win in late and close games). Bailey Zappe in the 4th quarter this year is completing 50% of his passes, had 0tds and 2ints and a passer rating of 48.3. Yeah, he's light years ahead of Mac, who by the way, was better in the 4th quarter this season than any other quarter, 66.6 comp%, 5tds, 2ints, 92.5 rating.

And this isn't a defense of Mac Jones. He's broken, but if you're going to continue to view everything about this team from the lens that Mac sucks, while simultaneously using a completely different standard for Zappe, I'm going to notice it.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

There is no different standard. Zappe makes mistakes and keeps fighting, Mac makes mistakes and collapses completely. It's obvious to anyone. Zappe threw three awful picks on Sunday and yet managed to dust himself off and make some more plays.

I'm not going to reiterate my points again. Mac isn't an NFL QB and has zero place in this league. Zappe has one, as a backup somewhere. Mac started out alright and then rapidly and irrevocable declined to the point where he was seeing ghosts against IND and was pulled for mercy's sake. Zappe shows that given some starts he can do a few good things. He might actually be improving.

Not once have I ever said Zappe should be the starter next year, but for this year the team looks and plays much, much better when he starts.

If Mac Jones is on the Patriots next year and gets any playing time, then it will be clear that the organization, no matter who the coach and GM are, have no real interest in winning football games.

 

[Hoya81]

TB would be crazy not to keep Baker and he probably wants to stay there, too. Why would he leave Mike Evans, White, and Godwin to come to NE to throw to Thornton and Boutte?

Minshew is always possible because he probably just wants to start and he's not the long term plan in Indy.

You’re right that TB will probably push hard to keep Baker, but I remember that BB seemed to be very fond of him and brought him in for a visit even though there was no chance they’d draft him. With the NFC South looking very messy for the immediate future, Baker’s probably enough to win the division for the next few years.

 

[johnmd20]

You’re right that TB will probably push hard to keep Baker, but I remember that BB seemed to be very fond of him and brought him in for a visit even though there was no chance they’d draft him. With the NFC South looking very messy for the immediate future, Baker’s probably enough to win the division for the next few years.

Yeah, doesn't matter what BB wants when it comes to Baker.

Baker would be crazy to leave the comfortable environs of the NFC South with his great supporting cast to go against Josh, Aaron, and Tua.

 

[DJnVa]

Trying to quantify the whole "falling apart when trailing thing".

When trailing:
Jones: 74.4 rating
Zappe: 76.4 rating

4th quarter:
Jones: 92.5 rating
Zappe: 48.3 rating

In losses:
Jones: 70.4 rating
Zappe: 56.8 rating


Just ready to move on and let Zappe hold a clipboard next season.

 

[tims4wins]

Re: the Thuney discussion upthread. Yes, he was obviously a fantastic draft pick. But does BB get credit for not signing one of the best guards in the game to a long term contract? Barnwell had Thuney as a first team all pro this season. It's a feather in BB's hat that he didn't sign him? What??

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Re: the Thuney discussion upthread. Yes, he was obviously a fantastic draft pick. But does BB get credit for not signing one of the best guards in the game to a long term contract? Barnwell had Thuney as a first team all pro this season. It's a feather in BB's hat that he didn't sign him? What??

Yes, I think BB deserves criticism for letting an all-pro level guard go and fail adequately to replace him. Even when healthy, Strange isn't as good as Thuney is. I oftem wonder what the thought process was there in allowing Thuney to leave for a conference rival like that. It's a clear misstep.