Before the season? Why would we have done that? The expectation was Mac could be average+.
Right, at least this season was mission accomplished on the "find out what we have in Mac" topic. I mean this really was the 2nd best possible outcome for the season, right? Best possible outcome was Mac played well, team played well, made the playoffs or whatever. But figuring out that Mac needs to be cut and getting a top 5 pick, is about as "good" as we could have expected from a bad season.
Your argument is that having bad players is *good* for the Patriots? And the Pats wouldn't be good with average QB play, they just wouldn't be one of the worst teams in the league. But the problem is that they have no great players on offense, not just at the QB position.
I take some of that back. Douglas is a star in the making. The rest of his receiving corp is trash, but that's part of a bigger problem.
Correct.
The Rams went out and got that QB. They paid to play. The records are not flipped because the Rams made a choice to acquire a QB that the Pats did not.
Is he bringing Puka, Kupp and Kyren along with him and McVay installing the offense? Stafford is obviously an upgrade at QB but the offensive operation for the LAR is significantly better than the flotsam and jetsam NE runs out.
It's been pointed out many, many times in this thread. The goal isn't to just get "average QB play" aka "better than Mac/Zappe". It's to find a QB that can be a top 10-12 guy in the league.
Doesn't matter. Doesn't need to.
Probably, though who knows, Mac has shown that he does the opposite of elevate WRs generally (see Juju who had 78 catches for 933 yards last year), and certainly Mac isn't throwing deep to a guy with little separation (it's much like the Pickens debate... and the Parker issue of why Parker looks so much better with Zappe) so those numbers probably look pretty different here.
Exactly. I mean, look at all the teams without having a player named on the list:
KP, I love you, but surely it says something that in the four years post-Brady, BB hasn't acquired a many players who could be considered in the top handful at his position.
The Patriots have really only struggled to add top players at a few positions... WR notably. The Defense is very good.
It's hard for me to really put a ton of faith in PFF, but I wouldn't call top 10 at a single position "elite." I won't deny that they seem to find contributors and starters reliably at certain positions, and that's a great skill to have, but I just reject the hand-waving that having what would be considered one of the best two or three players at a position is somehow not useful or instructive about the future health of the team.
Who was “among the best” on offense in 2001 or 2003 even? I would venture: “no one.”
Richard Seymour and Ty Law were “among the best” at the time I’d say. I know it’s convenient for you to leave out the whole defensive aspect of the equation, but safe to say that Seymour and Law had done more to prove themselves in the league by end of 2001 than Barmore and Gonzalez in 2023. But also you’re comparing 2023 to 2001, and a historically unique team at that. If the goal going forward is to recreate the 2001 team, then I think that’s going to lead to some tough sledding for everyone involved. It’s my favorite title team, but it’s an aberration for a reason.
Some of that article feels like warmed over Wickersham, but I thought this was interesting:
I’ve never heard anyone characterize that last Brady deal as Kraft’s way of “incentivizing Belichick to make changes.” If that’s true, it kind of seems like a bad play on Kraft’s part – if your goal was to broker some kind of peace, why would you give the QB more leverage to leave?
Yeah, that 2019 contract adjustment with the void years added pretty much guaranteed that Brady was going to hit free agency and most likely leave due to the cap implications that the team would face as a result. And Kraft/Belichick literally tried everything to get help at WR that season (retaining Josh Gordon, drafting Harry, signing Antonio Brown, bringing in Demarius Thomas).
Tennessee is 5-11 and they have an infinitely better QB than Mac.
I think the major difference between the teams the last few years and much of the dynasty is the lack of a top 5 QB. That's really the answer, and it is the answer league wide. If you want to have consistent top level success you need a top 10 QB.
This kinda lines up with what has always been a trend with Kraft. He loves the QB. He loved Bledsoe and gave him that monster contract, he loved Brady like a son basically and at the end acted like he was one and he has even tried to love Mac.
Do you want BB back if he is still the GM?
Yup. Which is why riding Mac this year to see what you had wasn’t a bad decision. Also: Kraft made pretty clear after 2021 that the goal wasn’t to just make the playoffs – it was to be one of the best teams in the league. Now you know what you need—a QB, another receiver or two and some OL help—to help you get there.
I’ve never bought into the “Bill the coach is undermined by Bill the GM” talk. Bill has filled out rosters with guys he thinks he can coach up, and its way more often guys like Jakobi Meyers, Chris Hogan and Jahlani Tavai than Gronk or Judon.
They'd be a contender for a playoff spot much like they were Brady's last season here but the offense is so bereft of talent they wouldn't be a serious playoff contender. We saw that Brady couldn't succeed here at the end with the lack of weapons and thrived in TB when he had Evans and Godwin to throw to. The idea NE is a QB away is fools gold.
I don't know man. The report that we've resigned ONE draft pick to a second contract in last 10 years or whatever seems pretty damning.
Man, your hyperbole is just breaking the meter.
Then why do the Patriots have no great players on offense? The coach is great. The GM is not.
The stat is they haven't re-signed a player drafted in the first 3 rounds since Duron Harmon (selected in 2013).
Fair. But other teams also have late round hits. Missing on first 3 rounds for 10 years is a miss, but I don't have every other team's numbers.
Statistics can be inconvenient sometimes. But it's not lazy. The record is poor, even with the addendums.
He provided context to the stat which is helpful in the discussion. Makes sense to me.
They haven't though?
They're not devoid of talent, they're devoid of talent at some key positions, the far most important of which is QB.
I mean, when evaluating a draft record, 2nd contracts as a data point is kinda dumb. Like is Thuney a black mark on Bill's draft recxord because he didn't get a second contract here and left for a record deal? Additionally, qualifying it by ignoring more than half of the draft is lazy to me. Also, maybe Barnwell and others who have used it could provide the context of how other teams do?
They aren't? They have no QB which is by far the most important position and the WR corps is mid, but there is plenty of talent. Also, free agency hasn't gone great (though some of that is again QB related as the passcatchers probably look better with a good QB). This team is only near the very bottom because of a ton of injuries and a complete QB collapse. Otherwise they'd probably have 6-8 wins and be middle of the pack.
Yeah, as a great example... which was a better draft pick....
How do you want to measure it, then? On wins? Offensive scoring? Overall record? Playoff wins? Point differential?
Because you should really just focus on the last 3 years and if Mac Jones was not shit this year they are probably a playoff team.
