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The Nation's Tears: Volume III

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by rsmith7, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    11,999

    Abner Haynes thanks you for remembering him:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Haynes#"We’ll_Kick_to_the_Clock"
     
  2. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, I think a throw on 2nd down can be defended but doing it out of the shotgun was pretty stupid, especially with a QB like Wilson. A bootleg where a TE cuts to the corner of the end zone would have been tough to defend.

    As you say, oh well!
     
  3. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    That would be seen as a referee error today. He made two selections, he only gets to make one. And you never let a team kick in both halves unless they explicitly tell you that is what they want to do ("We want to kick both halves"). Listen to any coin toss where a team defers and the Referee will tell the other team what to select:

    Team A: "Defer"
    Referee: "Okay Team B, you want the ball (don't even look to see if team agrees). Team A, which goal do you wish to defend?"
     
  4. simplyeric

    simplyeric aggressively nonsensical SoSH Member

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    Except you need it to be a quick play. There can be zero chance for a sack or a scramble on the pass play, because that could would be a major setback.
    I can see that the shotgun telegraphs the play, but that’s part of the risk.
    And honestly it almost worked. The receiver was open...Butler made an improbable play. If he had tried to break it up as opposed to catch it, he almost certainly would have been flagged for PI.
    Many things about that play were right. The only thing that stopped it was something special.
    If you replayed that play Groundhog Day style where no one but Collinsworth knows it’s happening over and over, how often is that play (was the throw to Lynch actually on the table?) either successful (TD) or just a miss (incomplete or D-PI) leading to another play? 9 of 10? More? How many times is that an interception?
     
  5. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    It was windy. And Stram apparently did want to kick (Or at least wanted the wind).

    But that aside, if a player -- let's call him bizarro Matthew Slater -- did, after winning the OT coin toss say, "We'll kick toward the lighthouse," what would be the referee's proper move?
     
  6. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    Neither would have been a major setback timewise. They had 57 seconds and a timeout. You snap at 40 and get sacked and call a timeout with 30-35 seconds left and your playbook is anything you want, including two runs.

    It should have been a PA rollout if a pass was the call. Worst case there would be an incompletion. Get out of the pocket and throw it out the back if need be. If this route was an absolute must-call for whatever reason, save it for 4th down. An INT doesn’t matter much then.
     
  7. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    But that's not the pass play they run in those situations. In those situations, they run the pick-play slant that they in fact ran. It was well-practiced and highly effective. There was no time for a read (to see that Lynch was open in the flat), Wilson received the ball and threw it without hesitation, and it had never failed them to that point. As Patricia points out, the Pats scout team had run it against Butler and the defense 7 or 8 times, and it had never failed to produce a touchdown against them even then.

    It wasn't a bad call to pass. The pass play they ran wasn't a bad choice of play. It was just supreme preparation by the Patriots' coaches, and divine execution by Butler.
     
  8. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Wow. That seems ridiculous for them to interpret "we'll kick to the clock" as saying that they would kick. There is a note in the NFL rule that once the captain declares the result is final and cannot be changed so there's definitely an incentive to choose your words carefully.
     
  9. simplyeric

    simplyeric aggressively nonsensical SoSH Member

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    The first words are "we'll kick", so...
    Yeah but a sack is a huge setback in terms of yardage for the TD. I get what you are saying about getting rid of the ball, but a sack would have been devastating. What are you going to do, run Lynch in from the 12?
     
  10. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

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    people knew this, so Bill knew this and figured they would pass. then he called a certain defense to bait them into a pick play instead of the fade they should have run.
     
  11. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    It’s hard to disagree too vehemently. As you wrote, it had worked for Seattle in the past. How hard is it to complete a one yard pass? But as many noted at the time, there’s inherently more risk in throwing over the middle on the goal line with so many arms in the air and the chance of a tipped ball. If the Pats were throwing in that situation, I’d want the ball going to either flat or one of the back corners, and for Brady to be throwing to a spot where only the receiver could catch it.

    The hideous Brady pick in the AFCCG this year reminded me of these ideas. Good thing that play was not a game ender....
     
  12. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  13. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

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    That's how I'd interpret it.

    Not shockingly, guess who's in the Showtime show commenting on it?



    Makes sense with Slater asking in the KC game what they should do with the coin toss.
     
  14. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Well the main argument people use to bash BB is how much of an advantage he has having the best QB all those years, and if you have great QB you are pretty much in the playoffs, at least every year. Not many serious analysts can put Shula at the top because of how mediocre almost all of his Marino teams were. They actually missed the playoffs 4 years in a row when he was at his peak.

    Also cracks me up the same people that say Brady sucks will say Belicek sucks because he has Brady or Brady only wins because of his coach. A nice circle of illogical hate.
     
    #414 reggiecleveland, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:19 PM
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019 at 12:24 PM
  15. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I had a Dolphins fan at work prattle on about hoe Shula will always be the greatest because he'd never do things as underhanded as what Belichick did to the Jets.

    I told him to do some research into how Shula got to the Dolphins and get back to me.

    He never did
     
  16. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Shula has the career wins record, but does anyone outside of Miami really consider him in the GOAT conversation? I feel like Lombardi, Walsh and Brown are the three most common names tossed around outside of Belichick; then probably Landry and Noll. The dude is the coaching equivalent of Eddie Murray; a very good coach who hung around forever and compiled some numbers that were superior to rivals who had better peaks.

    In all the Seattle blaming; Russell Wilson always gets let off the hook. He should have never thrown that ball and if he did, you can't be leading the receiver in that situation.
     
  17. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Shula didn't seem to be able to field
    You might also ask him why the field in Miami was so muddy for the 1982 AFC championship game against the Jets. Whoops! Donny boy just "forgot" to have the tarp on the field when it rained like hell the night before thus making the field slower when they were going to play what was considered to be a team with a lot more speed. Whoops!
     
  18. Mystic Merlin

    Mystic Merlin Member SoSH Member

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    And BB has a shot to pass him in career wins anyways. Including playoff records (but not counting byes as ‘wins’), BB is 55 wins behind Shula (347-292).

    BB’s playoff record is fucking unreal. 31-11 overall as a head coach, and 30-10 with the Pats. In a single elimination format where he’s getting a bye more often than he isn’t it’s mind boggling how he’s racked up a .750 win percentage.

    Shula, by contrast, was 19-17 all-time in the playoffs.
     
  19. rodderick

    rodderick Member SoSH Member

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    Don Shula couldn't win a Super Bowl with Dan Marino, why is this even an argument?
     
  20. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Like the Light Brigade, it was not Wilson's to question why, just his to do or die. The play design was, get the snap, take zero steps back, set feet and throw it before the defense has a chance to react. He had the defensive alignment he wanted, and the only counter was: have a huge beefy defensive back (of which there are few) charge up and strangle the picking receiver, which Browner did, and then have a small, quick back who knows what's coming charge over and beat the receiver to the spot. Think about how impossible a task that is, to beat a receiver to a spot on a slant by merely reacting to them, and without the benefit of inside leverage, either! Butler was later quoted as saying that if they threw to Lockett in any other location, he'd have looked like a complete moron because he basically abandoned any reading of the receiver in favor of blindly charging to that one spot. A one-step fake and a fade to the outside, and Lockett catches the TD without any defender within 10 yards of him.

    Also, leading the receiver? He threw it exactly to where Lockett's bread-basket would have been, if that space hadn't been occupied by Malcolm Butler the instant before it hit him. Lockett knocks Butler into next week, something like 4 yards backwards despite Butler having charged forward full-speed. The ball was thrown exactly where it should have been. Butler just made a great play.

    All this excuse-making and finger-pointing towards Carroll, Wilson, or the football gods above - all it does is try and take away something from Butler making an absolutely incredible athletic play. And all this mere moments after having made a great jumping pass defense on a deep ball, only to see the carom go straight up, hit a sprawling Kearse in the helmet, bounce straight up again and see him snatch it out of the air while lying on his backside. If that had happened to me, I'd have been shredding every shreddable object in sight out of sheer rage. Butler went out and made arguably the best single play in super bowl history. Let's give him that credit, and not try to argue that it happened because of someone else's mistake, shall we?
     
  21. Bergs

    Bergs Member SoSH Member

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    This is exactly right, and it's a point I'm sick of having to make to other people.
     
  22. shaggydog2000

    shaggydog2000 Member SoSH Member

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    He has the record for total wins by a head coach, only had two losing seasons in doing so, and coached the only perfect season in the NFL. I don't buy it either, but he has the obvious counting stats.

    But Walsh and Brown would be the ones I'd reference in terms of technical innovation and influence.
     
  23. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    That's pretty thin gruel. Not that I think highly of Don Shula as a person, nor place him all that highly in the head coaching pantheon (I'd agree with Brown first, Walsh second, too, and my sense from his many comments is that Belichick would as well). But Shula signed a contract with the Dolphins shortly after the NFL/AFL merger, and a tampering charge resulted in the Dolphins' first round pick going to Baltimore. Big whoop. The only meaningful difference between that and the Patriots getting Belichick from the Jets is that had Shula signed his deal a month earlier, before the merger, no tampering would have ever applied. Nobody, not even Jets fans, cite Belichick's move to the Patriots, with picks going back as compensation, as being an instance of "cheating". Feels like a huge reach to try it in Shula's case.

    Surely there are better things to cite when denigrating Shula.

    Incidentally, I imagine Belichick somewhat misses the days when coaches were regularly given the hagiography treatment, though, rather than the shit sundaes dished out by Borges and his fellowship of the miserable, or ESPN talking heads who see more profit in grinding people down than building them up. 3 minutes of googling for Shula articles, and just about every one of them is absolutely slobbering with praise and worship.
     
  24. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    You must be fun at parties
     
  25. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    The NFL has pretty rigid rules on stuff like this since the Thanksgiving fiasco, but the smart Referee would understand what the player wants and select the option that gives it to him, even if that's not exactly what came out of his mouth. These are football players and they are geared up for a game emotionally, it's not the time to give a grammar exam.

    So in your case, Slater says that and you tell him "Okay you want to defer" (turn the mic off here before he can open his mouth and say something that further muddies the water). The other team has to take the ball, and then Slater gets his option of where to kick. The winner of the coin toss gets what they want, and more importantly both teams get what they expect.

    If you parse out a very technical ruling where one team kicks twice, then one team is furious and the other team is unexpectedly very happy, and you've set yourself up for a nightmare on the sideline before the ball is even kicked.
     
  26. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    No argument, but Walsh and Montana for starters if there was one. It was also kind of a home game for the 49ers (Stanford stadium).
     
  27. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Shula had the entirely of Dan Marino's career and made only 1 SB and lost 2 AFCCG, both at home. He won two SBs in the early 70s, then coached another 20 years and never won another goddamn thing, even with one of the greatest QBs in history falling into his lap in the draft.

    He's made his public living off the back of the 17-0 team and he and his team have never STFU about it even as it recedes into the mists of history and no one remembers actually seeing them play.

    He's a bitter, overrated fraud.
     
  28. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    Shula also lost SB XVII. He reached SB XVII because he ordered the field untarpped the night before the AFCCG against the Jets to made a mud bowl and to deliberately slow down the NY Sack Exchange. They won by a whopping 14-0, and one of the TDs was a pick Sox by AJ Duhe.

    Shula's a fraud and he always has been.
     
  29. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

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    Didn't Belichick do something similar prior to the field turf? Then when it didn't suit his needs anymore they ripped up the field and installed field turf midseason, which is no longer allowed?
     
  30. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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  31. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    Appreciate your insight. I'm not as optimistic that the sideline discussion wouldn't start and end with "Coach, I stopped listening to him and turned to the other team as soon as Slater said 'we'll kick,'" but exploring where officials' discretion lies is an interesting topic. And I suspect the best ones are known for exercising it reasonably.
     
  32. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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  33. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

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  34. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Back when I used to be able to tolerate watching golf, I remember they used to make this huge deal in the British Open about the guy who would engrave the trophy as soon as the winner walked off the last green.

    I wonder if Belichick has a boat painter who stands there with the paint sprayer as the game is winding down.
     
  35. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I love how modest his boat is. Let the rings do the talking.
     
  36. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    It's interesting that although he includes the rings he won as an assistant in the total number, he only puts the number he has won as a head coach in the rings on the tail of the letter R.
     
  37. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Pretty sure Belichick owns that dock, the properties behind it and half the island.

    Edit: Ah, fuck that's Florida, not Nantucket
     
  38. Ferm Sheller

    Ferm Sheller Member SoSH Member

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    Not everyone needs a bigger boat, Quint.
     
  39. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This isn’t getting the love it deserves. I literally cackled out loud.

    Carry on.
     
  40. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    He has a couple of painters and he talks to them during the job. “Look, fellas, this isn’t that difficult. It’s just like when we went from V to VI and to VII. Talk to each other. Trust each other. Just do your job!”
     
  41. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    After Bill Arnsparger stopped working as his DC, Shula's teams didn't seem to be as good.
     
  42. Morgan's Magic Snowplow

    Morgan's Magic Snowplow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Lets not forget failing to win a single playoff game during the tail end of Johnny Unitas' prime then finally getting to the Super Bowl with Earl Morrall under center yet somehow managing to lose to the Jets.

    Shula is sort of the Peyton of coaches - clearly one of the all time greats but a guy whose playoff resume lagged badly behind his gaudy regular season numbers.
     
  43. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This made me curious.

    Dan Marino postseason: 32 TD passes, 24 INT
     
  44. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    So Brady is going to end up with more playoff wins than Marino had playoff TDs
     
  45. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Shula .... had .... no .... excuse.

    Because, like Belichick, he had the keys to the whole fucking kingdom.

    But unlike Belichick, he faced no salary cap and enjoyed much more restricted player movement.

    So either Shula the Head Coach fucked Shula the GM, or vice versa, or both.

    Look at the Marino years. They got to the SB early — and were annihilated by the 49ers. Never got another whiff.

    It’s so open and shut that even blind rage haters like Francesa, who make preposterous arguments against Brady, will not go there with Belichick and Shula.

    Dan Marino was an insanely gifted QB, a God. Tragic waste.
     
  46. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Go further - no salary cap. In one of the most desirable cities in the US in a state with no income tax (was that true back then?).
     
  47. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Uh, were it true, it would only further my point anyway.
     
  48. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    To be fair to Shula he won 2 sb and got back 2 more times with different players. That's a pretty great career, just not, well you know. Joe Gibbs career seems better
    Am I wrong in that of the other greats he reminds me most of Brady. Not a fast runner, quick release, felt the rush rather than scrambling, successful with all kinds of receivers.
     
  49. simplyeric

    simplyeric aggressively nonsensical SoSH Member

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    Seriously?
    It’s like you know nothing about football.
    Fuck Marino.
    This is the Nations Tears thread, not the ‘let’s talk glowingly about Dan Fucking Marino.
    If you want to talk about Marino’s on-field prowess, take it outside.


    (Please note: my ire is feigned. But still: fuck Marino)
     
  50. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Wasn’t that most QBs back then? Or successful ones except for outliers like Cunningham? Also, didn’t Marino have a much bigger arm?
     

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