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The Nation's Tears: Volume III

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by rsmith7, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Oh, Whitlock thinks race has to do with everything, and the Pats are no different. He basically comes out and says and I'm paraphrasing because I don't want to watch the stupid thing again "They're 66% now, but I've been beating this drum for a while, back when they were like 53% or 54%, etc...." Then he goes into his whole schtick about how if he lost 100 pounds, people would still call him the fat guy. He's basically saying "They may not be as racist as they were, but they're still racist because that's how people perceive them based on their history." The guy who throws out the stats in the early going is definitely taking the position that race isn't a factor when it comes to the Patriots, but not Whitlock. I don't think he's ever come out and openly said the "Patriots are racist," but he does the whole "I'm not saying they're racist, but............" thing.
     
  2. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

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    Eh, I guess. Not knowing anything about Whitlock coming into it, that's not how I took it at all. I took it as he was asking (himself) the question, but that he thought about it and it wasn't the right perception, even explaining why. I don't see any problem with an all-black panel discussing something like this, but it really doesn't seem like anyone was making any claims except that it didn't seem to be racially motivated at all.
     
  3. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    There's a bit of game theory with the newer OT rules, and that probably trapped Belichick to some extent. My guess is that BB thought the defense could hold the Jets to no more than a FG, if that. And so the Pats felt better going down into the end of the stadium they were more comfortable in, knowing whether they need a FG to win or tie. Similar to the argument that if OT rules guaranteed both teams at least one possession, you would almost always want to defer.

    It was obviously a mistake in hindsight. It's unclear to me if it was the right decision at the time it was made, as I really didn't think the Pats D was all that great, and they were on the road to boot. But sometimes even the best football minds will make the wrong decision; it's just the nature of the game.
     
  4. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    Pretty stupid thing to come out with for Pagano. Why burn the bridge to Patriotland when you never know when you might need a job and they are one of just 32 places that have paying NFL coaching jobs?
     
  5. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    FWIW BB said the next day he thought it was the right decision at the time for the football team.
     
  6. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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  7. loshjott

    loshjott Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Eh, I don't think it's a big deal. He said he respected them and BB. If he said he didn't hate the Pats, everyone would know he's a liar. If Tomlin, Harbaugh, Polian, etc. don't hate the Patriots you'd have to wonder if they've lost their competitive edge. It should drive them to improve.
     
  8. jodyreeddudley78

    jodyreeddudley78 Member SoSH Member

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    Race was definitely a hot topic leading up to SB LI. IIRC, some alt-righter declared the Pats victory a win for whites, or something like that. Given that fact, it's a fair discussion. That being said, I don't think that there is anyone in the NFL who values something arbitrary like race less than Belichick. I'm pretty sure he really only cares about people that will listen, learn, buy in, and give their best effort. I think anyone that thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

    I mean, the owner was #freeMeek. Was there another owner doing that?
     
  9. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    I still stand by my post. Don’t burn any bridges, unless there is somebody named Hussein or Khomeini on the other side.
     
  10. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Your post made me a bit curious about the coin flip rules. I don't think they are generally understood. What you actually get when you win the pregame flip is the right to choose or the right to defer. And then either the loser or the deferring team gets the choice in the second half. But actually the choice is between three options. You can choose to kick or receive. Or you can choose direction. And then your opponent gets the other choice.

    So, if there's really bad weather, that leads to a very interesting choice. You must choose direction. You can't choose to kick, because if you choose to kick, your opponent gets to choose direction. I don't know why to kick is even a choice, but I guess it theoretically could be important in some circumstances, but the point is that if your priority is that you want to kick for whatever reason, your opponent gets to choose direction. So, it's theoretically possible to receive and choose direction. Etc.

    But anyway the part of your post that made me think was your reference to deferring in overtime. I don't think in the regular season there's a concept of deferring. I think the winner of the toss in OT must choose. And let the opponent have the other choice. If you refuse to choose, it's actually a 15 yard penalty. In practice since everyone wants the ball this doesn't come up. But it actually could in the right circumstance.

    In the playoffs though, I'm not sure what the rule is. I think there must be a defer concept in OT because theoretically the game could take more than two quarters to complete and there would be a second half kick off. The rule isn't very clear, other than the OT coin flip rule borrowing from the start of game coin flip rule.
     
  11. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Did you watch it all the way through and hear Whitlock’s comments? He was clearly insinuating something. Or at least it seemed to me he was. And if this isn’t a thing, why are they talking about it at all?
     
  12. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

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    Admittedly I did cut out after about 9 minutes because it sounded like they were veering off. I went back and finished it and I do see that Whitlock was the only one not letting it go. But even he was citing it as a perception that did not match reality, and it seemed like everyone else completely disagreed with him, too.

    I do no longer think you're crazy for bringing it up (I should have watched the whole thing, that's lazy of me), but I also don't think a single person's feeling qualify as a "Thing" either. I can say that prior to watching that clip, even I had perceived this Pats team as being a touch white, though. That clip actually convinced me otherwise. I do think it's just that Brady, Edelman and Gronk are all white and front and center (maybe Amendola from before as well, that's when it popped into my head). If I'm wondering it, maybe it is/was kind of a thing to some people out there. We see fans of other teams justifying their hate for the Pats by pretending it's about "cheating" or whatever, so with the faces of the team being predominantly white, it wouldn't surprise me if Whitlock wasn't the only one thinking it. Maybe it was a good conversation to have, and I'm glad most of the panel came to rational conclusions.
     
  13. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I don't have time to watch it all now, but Whitlock, generally, loves the Patriots.

    As to why it's an issue, the media just needs something new to talk about now that the whole Brady debate has ended.
     
  14. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Yeah I’m not saying it IS a thing. And like I said, I just stumbled on it looking for Super Bowl stuff. And the fact that four minorities (three of whom played in the NFL) were talking about it prompted me to ask the question of whether it was a real thing or just a whole lot of nothing.

    It was interesting that Jennings and Houshmandzadeh made comments where it was clear that the perception among black players in the league is that white players (skill position players anyway) are less talented and therefore need to work harder. Wiley was arguing that time should have taught us by now that that isn’t necessarily true. But it was interesting conversation anyway.
     
  15. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    It's interesting as there are some coin toss options that would never make sense. For example, consider this hypothetical between the Patriots and Dolts, in which the Pats win the toss. Belichick (actually Matt Slater) can then, as you said, elect any of the following options:

    a.) Receive
    b.) Kick off
    c.) defend side a or side b
    d.) Defer

    There is never any reason to select (b) or (c), as then the Pats would basically be handing the Dolts another possession. Basically, if a team wins the toss and elects to kick off, the losing team would then use their option to elect to receive to start the second half. Similarly, if the winning team selects an end to defend, the losing team could elect to receive to start the first half. Then, they make the selection all over again in the second half, the Dolts would get first dibs to start the 2nd half (having lost the initial toss), and would elect to receive again. I guess if the weather was really bad, it may make sense to sacrifice a possession in favor of wind direction.

    What the Pats often do is simply defer, which basically forces the losing team to receive the opening kick. The Pats then inform the officials at the start of the second half that they will receive the second half kick. Technically, they could make a different selection, but that would be giving up a possession.

    In OT, no team really "defers". In the regular season, there is only one OT period. A winning team could elect to pick an end zone to defend; the losing team could theoretically elect to kick off, but under current rules that would be really dumb. So in the case of that Pats/Jets game, Belichick did not actually defer; he instead chose an endzone to defend, which is justifiable in some (rather rare) cases.

    In the playoffs, the only difference is that there is the possibility of a new kickoff to open the 3rd OT period. This is very rare; I think there have been less than 5 in all of the history of the NFL. But basically, the same rules apply; the team losing the OT toss gets the first choice to start the 3rd OT period. So, while a coach could defer, the chances of a 3rd OT period under the current rules are so small that it's extremely unlikely. And there is a new coin flip between the 4th and 5th OT period if the game is still undecided.
     
  16. RetractableRoof

    RetractableRoof Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Devoid of race consideration, the standard is simply (for those building the team rosters): are they putting their hands on the best players they can? The NFL is obviously a results oriented league. By definition, if you are winning then you are building your team well, so your roster decisions must be generally correct for your team. You can't criticize a team for choosing player A over B if at the end of the day you win with A. If there was a long period of time when a team wasn't winning, and there was an imbalance with the rest of the league based on race - then you might infer they were drafting poorly in an effort to maintain that imbalance.

    I think the issue in some cases is teams draft best combine athlete available versus best player available, and further we all accept BB's approach is to look for best player available for what he wants to do - even in some cases if he has to sacrifice athleticism for consistency/predictability/desire/attribute X. So there is positional variability compared to the rest of the NFL based on BB valuing attributes different then others assembling rosters. Jamie Collins for example was an extraordinary athlete at his position. At some point he got traded based on some combination of money and his supposed desire to freelance on the field. BB values a left-footed punter. If that is his criteria (and it appears it is) then the best available left footed punter is going to play - regardless of pigmentation. With regard to skill positions: you have HOFers at 2 of the skill positions (and national conversations about viability of a 3rd) - demographics be damned. I see nothing to deliberate on with regard to race and the composition of Patriots players.
     
  17. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    Fwiw, Marcellus Wiley said last week he did the research and league average was 70% AA players on teams and the Pats were at 67%. He then asked the entire panel who the perceived blackest team was, and they all said “Baltimore.” Wiley then dropped the “their roster is 65% AA,” which shocked everyone. He attributed the perception of white Pats to their receivers, and in particular Edelman. He also said the team is boring and nerdy, which furthers the perception.
     
  18. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    10,195
    Prejudice is terrible! Now listen to me hate on people because of the color of their skin.
     
  19. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

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    OK then, this must have been what kicked off this conversation because they were referencing those numbers in that clip. That seems like a reasonable jumping off point for a conversation.
     
  20. Adrian's Dome

    Adrian's Dome Member SoSH Member

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    Seriously.

    The Pats are racist because some of their high-profile players are white in a league that's 70% black (of which they're pretty much in the same ballpark.)

    But, you know, the implications that white players (from non-white players) aren't as talented and have to work harder or they're just boring and nerdy isn't, those are just "observations." Would that ever be considered an "observation" if the roles were reversed?

    Why the hell is this conversation still going? Jesus.
     
  21. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    The perception that the Patriots aren’t drafting the best combine “athletes” is also somewhat race based. I’ll look it up later, but I remember right before the Atlanta Super Bowl someone said that Edelman, Hogan and Amendola were not athletic enough and wouldn’t be in the league if they didn’t play for the Patriots.

    Of course, Amendola has played on several non-Patriot teams, and Edelman and Hogan are really only in the league BECAUSE they are great athletes. Gronk is often labeled as a “freak athlete” a term that is typically and callously thrown around when talking about black athletes.
     
  22. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

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    I feel like these are reactions to the idea of this conversation and not the conversation. And that'd be why it's still going.

    It looks like the clip was a conversation based on those numbers. It's an all black panel, that seems like a normal thing to bring up, and everyone on the panel agreed that there's nothing racist there. One only stated that there was a perception, but admitted it doesn't match reality.

    There's no one I can see pushing this narrative to anything beyond that.
     
  23. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    U Mad Bro? memes were huge before that, they really kicked of in 2003 with that Cam'ron appearance on O'Reilly.

    https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-umadbro-2483669 has a link to a 2011 national news story about it.
     
  24. Sausage in Section 17

    Sausage in Section 17 Poker Champ SoSH Member

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    In the social media age, almost any racial demographic statistic, once presented, has the power to start an avalanche of ridiculous comments and straw man arguments.

    I just wish they’d let the KKK field a team in the NFL
     
  25. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

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    OH, you don't have to remind me of that one, I assure you. Is there something like that going on though? Because in the context of this thread, all I saw was BaseballJones's post and no references of anything else or any kind of rampant discussion or accusations going on. From this angle, it *looks* like the assumptions are the only thing keeping the conversation going. I don't watch ESPN or go to twitter so it's totally possible I'm missing info here, though.
     
  26. RetractableRoof

    RetractableRoof Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Fair, I should have said the Pats weren't drafting exclusively combine studs. Hogan was taken off a lacrosse field, right? Ebner was known for Rugby, Neal was a wrestler, I don't mean to say they weren't drafting hugely athletic players, only that they weren't letting the combine numbers be the first driver. Clearly they desire physical freaks like Moss, Gronk, Gordon, Jones, Collins, etc.
     
  27. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know that they don't care about Combine numbers. Like in most things, they have a unique approach. They care less than most teams about the 40 (though at certain positions, like WR and CB, they do seem to care) and more about the 3-cone. A lot of times if you look at the Combine numbers of Patriots you don't think of as particularly athletic, you find they actually excelled at pretty much every drill but the 40. Ninkovich (though not a Pats draftee) is a great example - lousy 4.9 40, but above average jumps and outstanding agility drills.

    Edelman is kind of an example of the Patriots taking a Combine freak - he wasn't a Combine invite, but his Pro Day numbers were sick, especially his 3.92 shuttle and 6.62 3-cone. His 4.52 40 was just pretty good, of course. But obviously they weren't drafting him based on his tape at WR.
     
  28. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Wow, we had a close call that we never knew about:

     
  29. simplyeric

    simplyeric aggressively nonsensical SoSH Member

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    Wait, so I always thought that ‘defer’ meant to defer reviving the kickoff. Are you saying that it actually means they defer any decision whatsoever, and get to make that decision at the half?
     
  30. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Correct. The team winning the toss makes the decision for the first half, while the team losing the toss makes the decision at the 2nd half. It's just that from a practical matter, when the team winning the toss decides to "defer", the losing team will almost always elect to receive to start the game.
     
  31. RetractableRoof

    RetractableRoof Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I agree with everything you just said, I'm clumsily trying to say that I think where they rank various characteristics is also different. I think they have a floor for certain skills, and value football IQ very highly, etc.
     
  32. DavidTai

    DavidTai Member SoSH Member

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  33. bankshot1

    bankshot1 Member SoSH Member

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    Don Shula plied Irsay with champagne. It didn't go well with the coke and 'shrooms.
     
  34. splendid splinter

    splendid splinter Member SoSH Member

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    Edited to remove “I don’t think that’s quite right” as I mis-read the exchange, sorry.

    You’re right, you’re deferring your decision to kick or receive to the second half, so the other team chooses for the first half, and of course they will always choose to receive. I think there was a college game several years ago (involving Arizona or Arizona St, maybe?) where the winner of the toss chose to defer, the losing team chose to kick off (for some reason or just a brain cramp) and so the toss winner received the first half kickoff and then elected to receive the second half kickoff.
     
    #384 splendid splinter, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  35. rsmith7

    rsmith7 lurker

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    This is correct. Always worth it in "amateur" ball to defer and see if the other team will make this mistake.
     
  36. splendid splinter

    splendid splinter Member SoSH Member

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    Except for the part where I said lexra wasn’t quite right. I didn’t read his response to the post correctly.
     
  37. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Everything goes well with coke and shrooms except large meals.
     
  38. Dahabenzapple2

    Dahabenzapple2 Member SoSH Member

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    Re-watching SB 49: Lynch was just stopped for the second time on 3rd & short yet the Big Lie continues that the Pats won because it was 100% that Lynch would have scored at the end of the game. Even though twice (or more?) earlier in the game he was stuffed.
     
  39. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Lynch was one of the worst backs in football on 3rd and 4th and short / goal over a several year period. In their season opener in 2015 he was stopped on 4th and inches to end the game. The narrative has been refuted, and is a complete joke.
     
  40. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    You have to win three Super Bowls in a row to be the greatest team ever? I'm going to steal this: Q. Who is the greatest basketball player ever? A. They haven't been born yet.

    Anyway the Patriots came closest to that feat 2016-2018, probably followed by the Patriots 2014-2016 or the 49ers 1988-90 and then maybe the Cowboys 1992-1995,
    It's so dumb. I've posted the stats before, but the Seahawks generally and Lynch in particular sucked at goal line situations, and yeah, they'd stuffed him before. There's some clip of Patricia talking about how they had "3000 pounds" on the line and there was no way they could run Lynch, and they were thinking that Seattle would run the play they ran, which the Pats had stopped 0 times out of 7 or 8 in practice. He said the play that would have been a TD was a toss to Lynch in the flat. A Lynch run literally probably ends up in a loss and a Seattle timeout followed by a pass.

    ed here's a link to Matty P

     
    #390 snowmanny, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  41. Dahabenzapple2

    Dahabenzapple2 Member SoSH Member

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    The magnitude of those 2 drives by the Pats in that game cannot be overestimated. Just like in SB 53, GRONK & Jules were incredible.
     
  42. Dahabenzapple2

    Dahabenzapple2 Member SoSH Member

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    Collinsworth fell for and helped create the false narrative regarding Lynch and the supposed bad play call.
     
  43. Hagios

    Hagios lurker

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    From the SBNation article on Edelman before he was drafted:
    https://www.sbnation.com/2009/4/22/849496/getting-to-know-super-sleeper
     
  44. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    Agreed. But in real time, if we're honest with ourselves, how many of us thought they'd run Lynch again?

    *raises hand*

    I was shocked they didn't. And everyone in the room with me - about 15 other guys, mainly college football players - were similarly shocked.
     
  45. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I was at the game and sitting next to a very knowledgeable and mild mannered Chiefs fan who was mildly rooting for the Pats...as the play began, he shrieked in utter shock “he’s passing!!!!!”

    So yeah, it’s true that Lynch was not good at short yardage for some odd reason but that the Seahawks passed there was a surprise to almost everyone. I was in a daze when that play began so I can’t say what I was thinking. But I think Chiefs fan was a good proxy for most people.
     
  46. SeoulSoxFan

    SeoulSoxFan Dope Dope

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    Lol. Apparently the Rams assistant coach who called Brady a "f*ing pretty boy" is none other than Chris Shula, the grandson of Don Shula.

    The salt mine runs generations.

    P.S. Makes me giggle to think absolutely NO ONE is comparing BB and Grandpa Shula as the HC GOAT anymore.
     
  47. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    There was a time element to it, too. The Seahawks didn't have time to run the ball three straight times. If they run on second down and don't get it, then you know they're going to pass on third down. So it made sense to pass on second, when the Pats might not be expecting it, and then preserve the option to either run or pass on third. But we've been over all of this before a million times after it happened.
     
  48. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    True.

    Many NFL fans think the Pats were gifted a SB when Carroll passed there. Some of them are Haters and are latching onto low hanging fruit. Others legitimately believe it was a Carroll gift. They all ignore your timing point and the Lynch point. They also ignore that had the play worked -- which it very well could have -- that no one would have thought twice about the play selection. They also ignore that the Seahawks were quite fortunate to be in that position after Kearse did his best David Tyree impression. Finally, they ignore that Malcolm Butler made a crazy great play on the ball, and that Brandon Browner provided him the perfect lane in which to do it. Never mind the Hightower-Hicks play on the down before.

    That some fans don't fully understand a Patriots SB winning play is the ultimate high class problem, I suppose.
     
  49. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    They almost certainly did have time for 3 running plays, but they bled the clock instead. Lynch was tackled with 57 seconds left at the one, and Seattle had a timeout. They snap the ball with 40 seconds on second and they can re-set and run another play with 10-15 on third if he’s stuffed, then immediately call timeout for fourth.

    But I think letting the clock bleed is a perfectly viable strategy, as well. Pats had two timeouts and a fg ties it if Seattle scores. In that case, you’re gonna need to throw at least once. An inside slant with a short QB and your 3rd WR probably isn’t the best play on 2nd down, though, especially with a mobile QB...

    Oh well!
     
  50. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    You're right; I forgot they had a timeout. So they could run three times, but not if they wanted to bleed the clock first, and they decided (sensibly) that was more of a priority once they got inside the five. Part of me wonders if they expected Belichick to call a time out and let them off the hook.
     

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