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Price is right

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by In my lifetime, May 8, 2018.

  1. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    10,008
    I think it's time to remove HoF and MVP votes from the writers. Much different world now than it was a century ago.
     
  2. koufax32

    koufax32 He'll cry if he wants to... SoSH Member

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    Do I remember correctly that he threw very few curves?

    Maybe it would help a cutter?
     
  3. LaszloKovacks

    LaszloKovacks Member SoSH Member

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    If I were an MLB team, I would be looking at this constantly. And it wouldn't even be that hard. Employ 2 people to create pitch overlay videos of your staff and your upcoming opponent's staff. Something like this:

    [​IMG]

    Then just spot the outlier movement / position / timing, isolate that layer, and you've found the tell. If you want to go crazy, you could lock off cameras from different angles to check it from every direction.

    Are teams not doing this? Should the Red Sox hire me now??
     
  4. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    24,862
    It’s interesting that when we have talked about tells this year usually it is about whether our pitchers are tipping.

    For all we know it could be possible that the Red Sox succeeded in part by being above average in identifying other teams’ tipping.
     
  5. Zupcic Fan

    Zupcic Fan loves 8 inch long meat SoSH Member

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    I feel really good for David Price. The most interesting thing to me was to see how strongly his teammates clearly felt about the guy, yet there are still people writing stuff like “he’s still a prick”. And why?i because he got pissed off at Dennis Eckersly. Bizarre. I love Eckersly as an announcer, but for all I know he might personally be a gigantic asshole. I have no idea. But I do know that if all his teammates love the guy, than David Price is probably a pretty good guy, and he finally exorcised the demons. And that’s great for both him and the team. I couldn’t care less how he responds to the media.
     
  6. syoo8

    syoo8 Member SoSH Member

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    1,103
    They should hire you-- that is really cool what you've done!
     
  7. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    It's worth remembering that what got Price pissed off at Eckersley was Eck ragging on one of his teammates (and a young player fighting through an injury, to boot). Sure, I thought it was an overreaction, and one likely based on misunderstanding of Eck's meaning--I heard Eck's "yuck" as more commiserating than contemptuous--but still, if you want to be obnoxious in a way that will endear you to your teammates, that's how you do it.
     
  8. ledsox

    ledsox Member SoSH Member

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    I was wondering about his feelings on it. In his post game presser Price said how happy he was for Pearce and he knew the 2nd HR in game 5 wrapped up the award for him.
     
  9. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Pretty much this. I also think it's possible he's better the next 4 years, though not likely. Here's hoping he has a Justin Verlander type resurgence. Even 4 more years of the same would be great.

    I also find this to be hilarious:
    Price's Redsox Career
    Regular season: 480.2 IP, 3.74 era
    Postseason: 36.0 IP, 3.75 era
     
  10. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    It doesn't actually seem to do that. The market has tightened in recent years, and the value of 1 WAR appears to have stalled at around $8M, at least according to FG. Here's a look at Price's last five years with fWAR, FG estimated $ earned, and what that computes to in $/WAR:

    2014: 6 fWAR, $46M, $7.7M/WAR
    2015: 6.5, $51.8M, $8.0M
    2016: 4.5, $35.8M, $8.0M
    2017: 1.6, $12.4M, $7.8M
    2018: 2.7, $21.7M, $8.0M

    Unless FG hasn't bothered to recompute its $/WAR in five years, which seems unlikely, then inflation has slowed to a halt of late, at least if this example is characteristic (and I assume they're not using different formulas for each player or team, since that would kind of defeat the purpose).
     
  11. bakahump

    bakahump Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    5,996
    I think being an OBNOXIOUS (key word) Asshole is exactly what makes some people think Eck is a good Broadcaster (I am not a fan but 30 years of understated Remy will do that).
    His "High Cheese" and "Eat Meat" Shtick is annoying to some(Many?) on air....so it would be no surprise if he is (A.) like that in person, and (B.) Similarly annoying. RedSox and MLB all timer but I would strangle him with a mic cord after a 3 game series if I had the opportunity.

    All that said Price may also be an asshole (albeit a good teammate asshole). 2 Assholes often clash.
     
  12. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    Whoa, your opinion of Eckersley is so far out of line with that of the vast majority of people around here. Also, have you seen the things he did with Kirk Gibson, the guy that nailed him with the gigantic home run in the 1988 World Series, this year? Those things took a ton of class. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion though.
     
  13. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Everyone seems to love Eck, but okay. Dude signs autographs with Kirk Gibson.
     
  14. uilnslcoap

    uilnslcoap Member SoSH Member

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    I find Eckersley easily the best color guy for the Sox and saying (with very minor and occasionally no censoring) what's exactly on his mind is part of that. Between that, his palpable enthusiasm for the game, the actual insight he sometimes offers, and his gift of gab, he blows the competition away (again, for me).
     
  15. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    I would be really curious to see if there's a generational divide about Eck. It occurs to me that his style is very much a 60s/70s, surfer/Deadhead kind of thing, and may not read the same way for younger audiences. To me it sounds like even when he's being blunt and critical, there's always something laid-back and even gentle about his delivery that removes most of the sting. But I can easily imagine how viewers with a different frame of reference might not hear that.
     
  16. Soxfan in Fla

    Soxfan in Fla Member SoSH Member

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    It doesn’t hurt Eck’s cause that he sounded a lot like Cheech and Chong with the “it’s time to party” line after Mookie’s epic Grand Slam off pitch 13.
     
  17. Skiponzo

    Skiponzo Member SoSH Member

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    1,073
    52 here and I love Eck.
     
  18. sackamano

    sackamano Member SoSH Member

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    I love Eck too, but he no doubt holds back on the criticism. Obviously the ERod/Price thing was a lesson, but that was blown way out of proportion. You hear worse on the radio call in shows in the first minute.

    His laid back style suits me just fine. I'm entertained by his use of moss/salad/cheese/bridge/johnson ... whatever. He sounds like a ballplayer would sound.

    Just keep Psycho out of the booth.
     
  19. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

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    Home run or no, I don't think palling around with Kirk Gibson absolves someone from assholery.
     
  20. Zupcic Fan

    Zupcic Fan loves 8 inch long meat SoSH Member

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    Just to be clear, though, my original comment was not in any way meant to be a negative one about Eck. I have no idea what he’s like as a person. I love him as an announcer. I just found it strange that people concluded that “Price is still a prick” because of that incident with him. It seems pretty clear to me that if Price was in fact a prick, his teammates would not feel for him the way they clearly do.
     
  21. sackamano

    sackamano Member SoSH Member

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    What is it then that absolves someone of "assholery"?

    Just asking for a friend.
     
  22. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    So you’ve established that Kirk can be an a-hole? Awesome. Not sure what that was to do with Eck.
     
  23. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    During the playoffs, they showed Price's performance in the 2008 ALCS and he was pitching ... 95MPH. Plus, his stuff looked almost identical a decade later. Will be interesting to see how much of it he can maintain going forward.
     
  24. Average Reds

    Average Reds Dope Staff Member Dope V&N Mod SoSH Member

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    Are you really this obtuse?

    No one was claiming that “palling around with Kirk Gibson” had anything to do with anything. Rather, the point was about Eck’s ability to put aside his personal failure (related to the game in question) and take part of a celebration of that moment.

    The article you linked to here could not be farther from being relevant to this discussion.

    Honestly, I have no idea why folks can’t let an incident from last year go when all of the people involved seem to have moved on.
     
  25. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Doesn't he joke around about a teammate stealing his wife too?
     
  26. Average Reds

    Average Reds Dope Staff Member Dope V&N Mod SoSH Member

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    Yes, he jokes about it. But the joke is at his expense, as he will admit if he’s being serious and is asked to expound on it. Although, again, I don’t know what any of this has to do with Price.
     
  27. Smiling Joe Hesketh

    Smiling Joe Hesketh All Hail King Boron Dope

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    In Eck's HoF speech I believe one of the people he thanked was his first wife, the one that left him for Rick Manning.
     
  28. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, I meant that in favor of Eck.
     
  29. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Unless there's more to the story, it was pretty thin skinned for Price to get all that worked up over a comment like "yuck," but I can understand why his teammates love him for it.

    Just from watching NESN postgames and stuff, I kind of noticed a pretty subtle change in Price about two months ago and thought about posting it here. He was more self-deprecating in interviews, even when he was sarcastic. Just in general he seemed more mature and balanced. Whether he made peace with the love-hate relationship with the fans and the media or something else it was pretty noticeable.

    He just really seemed more even-keeled. He seemed that way throughout the playoffs too and it helped him. I thought his "now I hold all the cards" postgame conference showed that he still holds a lot of resentment and I don't know that anyone can blame him, but other than that one moment I definitely got more of a sense after the all star break that Price was more of an "I know who I am and that's what matters" kind of guy.
     
    #829 DennyDoyle'sBoil, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  30. Average Reds

    Average Reds Dope Staff Member Dope V&N Mod SoSH Member

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    Apologies. The entire digression gnaws at me.

    No idea why we have to relitigate a moment that both parties regret in the aftermath of a postseason that went as well as this one did.
     
  31. Trotsky

    Trotsky Member SoSH Member

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    Holy crap I can’t believe the last two pages!!!!
     
  32. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    8,867
    Back to Price, if you ignore his 5 starts he made with CTS, his line for the year is:

    25g, 15-3, 2.88 era, 153.0ip, 155k/37bb 1.098 WHIP, .215/.276/.372, .258 BAbip, 25.3% K/6.0% BB.

    That 5 game stretch with CTS:
    5g, 1-4, 8.22 era, 23 ip, 22k/13bb, 1.87 WHIP, .309/.394/.543, .362 BAbip, 20.2% K/11.9% BB

    Cherry picking, but injury related cherry picking.
     
  33. bakahump

    bakahump Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    5,996
    Yeah obviously I dont know Eck (or Price). So both or neither could be assholes in some way shape or form. (as most of us are. Except Mookie Betts, he is a national treasure.)
    Again personally his "cool guy" shtick rubs me the wrong way. I dont like his style but understand that many do.

    I was just saying that anyone can rub anyone the wrong way.
    A for instance, a poster above (who i tend to agree with) mentioned that Eck speaks like he is "a ball player".

    Even though I dont like it per se, I can see how he has earned that right IMHO. Price may feel otherwise. He is not a "part of this team", he played "20 years ago." "He wants to be one of us but shits on us".
    We all know the old guy at the club who tries to hard to fit in with the young guys. Maybe that was *part of Prices beef. Maybe Price felt that when you "Cross the line into media" (and its necessity to be critical) you lose a right to be "one of the guys".

    The big problem is assuming that Price was all wrong, and Eck was all right. The 3rd side of the story is probably is closer to the truth.

    Showing up to throw a pitch at the WS could be considered cool. Or it could be considered the act of an attention whore. I wonder what A's fans thought.

    Seems like (and I could be totally misremembering) Bucker and Mookie Wilson doing something together caused this place to go apoplectic 15 years ago.
     
  34. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

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    Hey man, I agree. I hate to bring up Price v. Eckersley too. I was maybe the tenth poster in the discussion, but I'm sorry if I struck a nerve.

    I get that a generation of SOSH has lionized him (I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't remember his Sox career). All I'd like to do is make sure in our reflections of last year's incident that we're able to divine similar notions of exculpatory classiness from unrelated anecdotes about Price. Eck's a great color guy, but I agree with posters above that it's possible that a 64-year-old "guy's guy" prone to from-the-hip commentary might be taxing for some twenty- and thirtysomethings to be around every day.
     
  35. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I was lucky enough to be in the Legends Box at Fenway about 12 years ago with Eck. He was the same exact guy you see and hear on TV. Now maybe he was in character when he was with us but it sure didn’t seem that way. Instead, he seemed to be genuinely engaging, excited to interact with us and gregarious. My take away was that his TV persona is very likely exactly who he is.
     
  36. Leskanic's_Thread

    Leskanic's_Thread Member SoSH Member

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    #836 Leskanic's_Thread, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  37. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    I’m not sure how Price and Eck are mutually exclusive.

    Personally, I love Eck and his personality/style. I like that he’s brass and, I dunno? Hip? (To put it in his generation’s terms?)

    Personally I also think Price did what he should and got way too much shit over it. It shouldn’t have even been a story. He was being a leader, but because he hasn’t been a perennial cya winner since coming here, he gets shit for anything out of his mouth, any action, any frown or long look.

    Eck fucked up. It happens. Price stood up for a teammate. It happens. What shouldn’t happen is it ever even being mentioned outside the team plane. But chalk another one up for Shank.
     
  38. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    4,857
    56 here, and I think Eck is the best color guy I’ve ever heard.

    Edit: For survey’s sake, I should add that my 20-year-old son loves Eck too.
     
    #838 dhappy42, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  39. Timduhda

    Timduhda lurker

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    51 here d Eck is the 2nd best in IMHO. Can’t beat The Hawk in the late 70’s. Probably has something to do with watching the weekend games with my grandfather, but Stockton / Harrelson was the best.
     
  40. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

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    Second that. I meant currently working, not ever.
     
  41. ricopetro6

    ricopetro6 lurker

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    This 53 year old and my 24 year old both love Eck.
    Price comes across as a dink, not very likable when he talks ro the press. He never talks about the fans at all....yet his teammates seem to love him and if he pitches well, I don't care if he's a dink
     
    #841 ricopetro6, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  42. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

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  43. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    Gibson's Parkinson's diagnosis makes this nothing like Buckner and mookie.
     
  44. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    It's the conundrum or risk reward of being a Boston sports star. The fans and the media can be rough. But I don't think there's another market where you will be as beloved if you do well. It's the flip side of the same coin. I just don't think you could have one without the other. Dave Roberts played for the team for 2 months, never got a postseason at bat, and his most famous moment was that he was safe by a matter of inches down a run down and down three games to our most hated rival. And he never has to buy a beer in Boston and we actually are feeling bad for him for losing the world series even though his doing so means we won it. It's Boston yin and yang. I'm glad Price got some yang.
     
  45. Hawk68

    Hawk68 lurker

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    Agree that Eck is great at color commentary due to insights and his gift of gab may only be second to Hawk Harrelson.

    An all time great moment from Hawk... he was providing color commentary when Jim Rice broke a bat on a check swing (unimaginable strength, and I saw him do it twice). Hawk in his aw shucks way laughed and said "I saw Jimmy do the same thing in golf. Checked his swing and bent his driver"
     
  46. ookami7m

    ookami7m Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    4,558
    I'm 38 and think Eck is one of the better color guys active in the game today. I watch a ton of other games via MLBtv and other means and would take Eck about 95% of the time.
     
  47. InsideTheParker

    InsideTheParker Member SoSH Member

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    Nothing to do with the Eck/ Price brouhaha in this post, so you might want to skip it.
    I have been watching the alds and alcs today, and have been struck by how badly Price pitched against the Yankees and how unimpressive was his first start against the Astros. He then pitches well going forward. I don't see why everyone is so sure he is all fixed forever, especially when those same people are happy to let Eovaldi go. We'll just have to see, I guess.
     
  48. mfried

    mfried Member SoSH Member

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    BEFORE mookie’s slam.
     
  49. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

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    Didn't Price acknowledge he figured something out in the bullpen during game 4? And hasn't it been suggested that he may have been tipping and the Yankees and Astros were on to it?

    The guy was nails the entire second half of the season except for when he faced the Yankees. If tipping was an issue against the Yankees, and Price has fixed it, why shouldn't there be optimism about him going forward?

    And what does that have to do with some folks resigned to the idea that they won't keep Eovaldi? I don't think I've seen anyone suggest they should let him walk...only that he may be too expensive to sign.
     
  50. The Gray Eagle

    The Gray Eagle Member SoSH Member

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    This yahoo article by Jeff Passan from a few days ago details how the Yankees knew when Price was going to throw a changeup, and the Astros did in his first start against them, too.

    "Unbeknownst to the Red Sox, the Yankees believed Price was tipping his changeup. Only it wasn’t visible to the hitter. The first-base coach could deduce when Price was throwing a changeup and would signal the hitter. With his cut fastball becoming a pitch he used less and less, taking the changeup out of the equation made hitters’ jobs even easier. The Yankees jumped him.
    Houston also knew about Price’s tipping and did the same in Game 2 of the ALCS. Over the four days between then and Price’s Game 5 start, the Red Sox cracked the tell. They also eliminated his cutter almost entirely, making the changeup even more important. Price threw a career-high 39 changeups that night. The Astros swung and missed a dozen times after doing so once in Game 2."

    The same article also talks about how Kimbrel was tipping his knuckle curve:

    "As the postseason wore on, the Red Sox feared runners on second base were seeing the unique grip Kimbrel and others use on their curveballs. With a so-called knuckle curve, pitchers bend their index finger and put pressure on the fingertip, exposing the knuckle. Upon seeing the grip from behind, the runner at second can relay the pitch type home – a disaster for Kimbrel, who throws only a fastball and curveball.

    The Red Sox prescribed a tricky antidote: Sometimes, as they prepared to throw a fastball, the knuckle-curve-throwing pitchers would flash a knuckle to deke the runner at second. As they went into their windups, the pitchers surreptitiously slid their index fingers onto the ball and pumped a fastball to unsuspecting hitters expecting a curve."

    With all the video study that teams are working with now, pitch tipping is going to be a big factor going forward. I am sure the Red Sox probably picked up some tells on various pitchers this postseason too.
    Smart teams are going to need to be able to pick up how their own pitchers are tipping, as well as how the opposition pitchers are too.
     

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