Ryan's a company man, along with Lupica and Albom. But I guess they can't bring Mitch out to talk about how shameful it is for someone to cheat in their profession.
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Per PFT, the Pats have not decided whether to file an appeal. They have until next Thursday to file.
If appealed, Ginger probably doesn't order the NFL perp walk for Bawb. He probably gets the secret elevator from the garage. But who knows?
Jonathan probably would accompany pops. And it would be funny to see his face, curled up in rage, beating through the reporters to the front door.
If appealed, Ginger probably doesn't order the NFL perp walk for Bawb. He probably gets the secret elevator from the garage. But who knows?
Jonathan probably would accompany pops. And it would be funny to see his face, curled up in rage, beating through the reporters to the front door.
norm from cheers said:
That comment was the match that lit the fuse that led to this massive shitstorm exploding.
No doubt about it; without that comment, we wouldn't be here.
There's no chance this gets completely over turned by Roger right? If he wants to interview everyone again any chance they all just keep their mouth's shut and let a judge decide? There's no benefit to talking and they just risk further implicating themselves. This whole thing is a farce.
dcmissle said:
Remember kids. The headlines at the Bleacher Report are written by former National Enquirer interns & Space Monkeys on 6-pack of Jolt.
It seems like there are only three possibilities here --
1.That Brady and or the equipment guys are lying.
2.That the NFL is a malicious, punitive, incompetent and corrupt organization.
3. All of the above.
What is interesting to me is that while many believe that the patriots cheat all the time, Brady has been pretty much universally respected. He's a bit of a sacred cow. So why in this situation where the two parties are not A. Cheating Patriots and B. Asshole NFL but A. Golden Boy Brady and B. Asshole NFL, the herd has thrown in their lot with the side that has proven, just over the past year that they are total and complete morons and liars (when did you see the tape, Commissioner?). Especially when if you take a step back and look at the facts in a cold way, the evidence of wrongdoing in this situation clearly points towards the NFL's guilt and not the Patriot's(the incompetence in the measuring, the leaks to the media that were completely false, the bizarro penalties that are beyond anything the NFL has EVER SEEN). I guess you can chalk it all up to Pats hate in terms of the fans and the media that caters to the lowest common denominator fans but I must admit I'm actually kind of surprised that there isn't more thoughtful analysis of all of this.
Maybe I shouldn't be. Which is making this whole thing super depressing. Yes its wonderful theater and yes I'm sure it will fuel the Patriots next season but it's very sad to see the media fail so badly. Even worse than that, they actually created this mess. Honestly how can we look at any reporting and trust it when the person who should be being vilified right now is not Tom Brady but Chris Mortensen for tweeting out an untrue report that is the mouth of the river for all of this. Where is the call for accountability? Everyone wants Brady to come clean but when a reporter fails at doing the most fundamental part of his job (reporting the facts) no one blinks. He's' not doing the rounds apologizing. No one is demanding his sources be revealed (because that is the real story here. Even if the balls were illegally inflated it had no impact on the game, but if the NFL is intentionally trying to destroy the reputation of one of its franchises and its star player then I think there is a real "integrity of the game" issue going on). And frankly, all of these TV and radio and print reporters who are going after Brady to get clicks and retweets and talking heads time should take a moment and think, holy shit, we have succeeded in tearing down the Golden Boy of football. Everybody loves and respects this guy. And we have tarnished him. If it can happen to him then it can happen to any of us. Public figure or private. And it can happen overnight. The difference is that Brady can tell everyone to fuck off and be fine. Most people (like them) would be ruined. I mean, this whole thing is built on bullshit. It's a machine that starting churning out stories not because it was important that the world knew what was happening but just so that the machine had something to do. Clearly the news is no longer about the news. The news is it's own entertainment content provider. It no longer reports on events and public figures, it creates them. The problem is that they still consider themselves news companies too. So the price of their need to produce content is that the actual news stories get twisted or under reported or often incorrectly reported and there is no sense of urgency to correct themselves. The urgency is only about providing more content. Obviously there are exceptions but in this case, the NFL seems to have taken advantage of the machine and created a real horror show.
It's fucking depressing. To see the so called defenders of truth care so little about it.
1.That Brady and or the equipment guys are lying.
2.That the NFL is a malicious, punitive, incompetent and corrupt organization.
3. All of the above.
What is interesting to me is that while many believe that the patriots cheat all the time, Brady has been pretty much universally respected. He's a bit of a sacred cow. So why in this situation where the two parties are not A. Cheating Patriots and B. Asshole NFL but A. Golden Boy Brady and B. Asshole NFL, the herd has thrown in their lot with the side that has proven, just over the past year that they are total and complete morons and liars (when did you see the tape, Commissioner?). Especially when if you take a step back and look at the facts in a cold way, the evidence of wrongdoing in this situation clearly points towards the NFL's guilt and not the Patriot's(the incompetence in the measuring, the leaks to the media that were completely false, the bizarro penalties that are beyond anything the NFL has EVER SEEN). I guess you can chalk it all up to Pats hate in terms of the fans and the media that caters to the lowest common denominator fans but I must admit I'm actually kind of surprised that there isn't more thoughtful analysis of all of this.
Maybe I shouldn't be. Which is making this whole thing super depressing. Yes its wonderful theater and yes I'm sure it will fuel the Patriots next season but it's very sad to see the media fail so badly. Even worse than that, they actually created this mess. Honestly how can we look at any reporting and trust it when the person who should be being vilified right now is not Tom Brady but Chris Mortensen for tweeting out an untrue report that is the mouth of the river for all of this. Where is the call for accountability? Everyone wants Brady to come clean but when a reporter fails at doing the most fundamental part of his job (reporting the facts) no one blinks. He's' not doing the rounds apologizing. No one is demanding his sources be revealed (because that is the real story here. Even if the balls were illegally inflated it had no impact on the game, but if the NFL is intentionally trying to destroy the reputation of one of its franchises and its star player then I think there is a real "integrity of the game" issue going on). And frankly, all of these TV and radio and print reporters who are going after Brady to get clicks and retweets and talking heads time should take a moment and think, holy shit, we have succeeded in tearing down the Golden Boy of football. Everybody loves and respects this guy. And we have tarnished him. If it can happen to him then it can happen to any of us. Public figure or private. And it can happen overnight. The difference is that Brady can tell everyone to fuck off and be fine. Most people (like them) would be ruined. I mean, this whole thing is built on bullshit. It's a machine that starting churning out stories not because it was important that the world knew what was happening but just so that the machine had something to do. Clearly the news is no longer about the news. The news is it's own entertainment content provider. It no longer reports on events and public figures, it creates them. The problem is that they still consider themselves news companies too. So the price of their need to produce content is that the actual news stories get twisted or under reported or often incorrectly reported and there is no sense of urgency to correct themselves. The urgency is only about providing more content. Obviously there are exceptions but in this case, the NFL seems to have taken advantage of the machine and created a real horror show.
It's fucking depressing. To see the so called defenders of truth care so little about it.
54thMA said:
Maybe. But here's the thing: I loved that comment.
People see it as arrogance. I saw it as Brady defending his coaches and the work that they all do. "Fuck you we're cheaters--that shit is legal."
The Patriots are literally the only team in any sport I've ever seen criticized to the point of being called cheaters for being so good at game planning and execution, and the ineligible/eligible receiver formations weren't even the first time it's happened. Their hurry up offense has been likened to cheating, which is also bullshit. In the past, it has been argued that they use such sophisticated defensive schemes because they need to because they're not as good as other teams, which is basically an insane thing to say.
They make people crazy. But that's on the people who can't deal--at this point, the nation is enabling that lack of being able to deal, which is a bad thing that transcends sport.
Punchado said:
Agree--this looks like a classic narrative of masses gleefully pulling down the successful hero, self-satisfied in claiming they knew something must have been up all along.
It's basically a celebration of mediocrity by propping themselves up in claiming that nobody could actually be that good. It's not good.
dcmissle said:
The timeline is pretty interesting here:
May 18-20 - Owners meetings
May 21 - Deadline for Patriots to file appeal
May 24 - Brady appeal must begin to be heard by this date (per 10 day rule)
I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those owners meetings. Do you know if Goodell is present at all the meetings? Or will Kraft have a chance to address the rest of the owners with nobody else in the room?
O, so now you think the eternal well-being of the great and powerful representative of Ra on Earth is trivial? Thats just great. Nitwit...
I think this whole thing is going to sink or swim on the text messages. I have a feeling that this is what the Patriots want. they have basically already established at least a draw on the science. They have a win in the gametime ballhandling and gauging.
I think they have an ace in the hole in the text message contexting which it appears that Wells' team had no interest in doing. They have access to text messages that precede the early May texts that are in the Wells report. They could also have access to other texts that might provide context. For example if McNally was texting with other people on the night of the Green Bay game and at other times that could provide context to some of these strange conversations which seem so disjointed. You can have conversations with multiple people on a cell phone.
This might be wishful thinking on my part. I just don't see this guy McNally being capable of deflating 13 footballs on a slanted concrete lavatory floor in 100 seconds.
I think they have an ace in the hole in the text message contexting which it appears that Wells' team had no interest in doing. They have access to text messages that precede the early May texts that are in the Wells report. They could also have access to other texts that might provide context. For example if McNally was texting with other people on the night of the Green Bay game and at other times that could provide context to some of these strange conversations which seem so disjointed. You can have conversations with multiple people on a cell phone.
This might be wishful thinking on my part. I just don't see this guy McNally being capable of deflating 13 footballs on a slanted concrete lavatory floor in 100 seconds.
I would caution people to stop pointing so readily to the Chargers example. It's not perfectly analogous in that the NFL ultimately determined that they were not actually doing anything wrong with the towel. Their fine was purely for the non-cooperation.Harry Hooper said:
I'm sure they've got a whole lot more "important" stuff to do, but it would be awesome for anonymous to take a hack at the NFL home office's network of info
I wrote what follows in response to someone who said that the legal wrangling is irrelevant because the Patriots will not be exonerated and other fans and the media will always look at the patriots as cheaters, and then I thought that some people here might find it of interest:
It depends what you mean by irrelevant. I mean, I fucking love the fact that they are fighting.
I have always taken very seriously, in my role as professor, teaching students how to think about institutions and authority and not be afraid of them, and not be bullied by assholes or bureaucracies and shit. This is the terrain in which most of real life operates when we have real problems, and the natural instincts of those that run them is to intimidate or bully people into accepting things because that's the way it is because it makes their job easier or validates their sense of self in their bullshit role of authority.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-authority per se--I love the fact that we have institutions that allow us to contend with those who would hurt us. But I especially like that we have greater institutions that allow us to fight the institutions that would fuck us over.
I mean, I've always had a very intense concern with justice for whatever reason. Maybe I took Star Wars seriously--I dunno. But in beginning my teaching career at a state school I became acutely aware of the degree to which so many Americans--with a strong class distinction, but also even in some non-working class types--had adopted a kind of mindless obeisance to authority, even marginal or bullshit authority, that is... well, unworthy of a free people.
And I see people in that forum saying that Brady and Kraft should just roll over, that they should have just said the right thing as dictated by what the league wants to hear and move on so they wouldn't have been punished. And should stop what they are doing and just... what? Just take it?
FUCK. THAT.
Even if they deflated the balls--even if they had weekly League of Evil cabal meetings where they discussed it--the league is out of line. Goodell is out of line, and they are hammering the "RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!!" line. Fuck that. In things like this, I always vote: Fight. Always.
This kind of shit needs to be knocked down. Being a fan of sport, while fundamentally human, is, rationally speaking, kind of stupid. The best justifications are that they convey a sense of excellence, rewards for hard work and discipline, teamwork--shit like that. But Lord knows we don't exalt other activities that do the same to such levels.
Seeing Kraft and Brady fight the league makes me feel better about supporting this stupidity. So yeah, maybe the outcome is irrelevant to what other fans think about the Patriots. But all this other stuff is waaaaaaay more important than that, in my justice geek opinion anyway.
Edit: I use, among other things, this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAQrsA3m8Bg
It depends what you mean by irrelevant. I mean, I fucking love the fact that they are fighting.
I have always taken very seriously, in my role as professor, teaching students how to think about institutions and authority and not be afraid of them, and not be bullied by assholes or bureaucracies and shit. This is the terrain in which most of real life operates when we have real problems, and the natural instincts of those that run them is to intimidate or bully people into accepting things because that's the way it is because it makes their job easier or validates their sense of self in their bullshit role of authority.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-authority per se--I love the fact that we have institutions that allow us to contend with those who would hurt us. But I especially like that we have greater institutions that allow us to fight the institutions that would fuck us over.
I mean, I've always had a very intense concern with justice for whatever reason. Maybe I took Star Wars seriously--I dunno. But in beginning my teaching career at a state school I became acutely aware of the degree to which so many Americans--with a strong class distinction, but also even in some non-working class types--had adopted a kind of mindless obeisance to authority, even marginal or bullshit authority, that is... well, unworthy of a free people.
And I see people in that forum saying that Brady and Kraft should just roll over, that they should have just said the right thing as dictated by what the league wants to hear and move on so they wouldn't have been punished. And should stop what they are doing and just... what? Just take it?
FUCK. THAT.
Even if they deflated the balls--even if they had weekly League of Evil cabal meetings where they discussed it--the league is out of line. Goodell is out of line, and they are hammering the "RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!!" line. Fuck that. In things like this, I always vote: Fight. Always.
This kind of shit needs to be knocked down. Being a fan of sport, while fundamentally human, is, rationally speaking, kind of stupid. The best justifications are that they convey a sense of excellence, rewards for hard work and discipline, teamwork--shit like that. But Lord knows we don't exalt other activities that do the same to such levels.
Seeing Kraft and Brady fight the league makes me feel better about supporting this stupidity. So yeah, maybe the outcome is irrelevant to what other fans think about the Patriots. But all this other stuff is waaaaaaay more important than that, in my justice geek opinion anyway.
Edit: I use, among other things, this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAQrsA3m8Bg
As a legal talking point I completely agree with you. As a PR talking point, though, it can backfire on you.There is no Rev said:
There is no Rev said:
The cooperation argument is such bullshit.
One of the great points Steph Stradley makes in that exchange is that during Bountygate Goodell informed the Saints not only that they should cooperate fully but that full cooperation would likely cause him to grant the team one of its lost 2nd round picks back. From that point on, the Saints cooperated fully and Goodell never gave them shit in return.
The ultimate lesson is that the extent of cooperation has no bearing on how hard you get fucked by Goodell's NFL. Cooperation might be a carrot, it might be a stick, or it might be something else altogether. Whatever is most convenient for the league in that particular case.
Ben Volin @BenVolin 27s27 seconds ago
Heard from a contractor who did work on old Foxboro Stadium. Said McNally once joked about farting into the ball. Is that "'the Deflator???"
Heard from a contractor who did work on old Foxboro Stadium. Said McNally once joked about farting into the ball. Is that "'the Deflator???"
I've thought this too. Another example: if JM really does often use "deflate" to mean "lose weight", there could be a corroborating record of it out there - an email with a work colleague or text with another game day employee perhaps. He was employed by the Patriots for many years after all.Doctor G said:
I'm also curious how JJ and JM's involvement plays out going forward, especially no longer being employed by the Patriots. As time passes, the public interest in their story wanes. Does anyone have a PR or legal opinion on why they might not have come forward yet? (Besides the obvious they want to put this behind them)
And it would seem to me to be valuable as gold - it shows how out of line/brutal the 'non-cooperation' part of the league punishment was or is.TomTerrific said:
I have a question: given the Goddell statement about re-interviews - can Jastremski or McNally be compelled to show given they were fired? How do you work that? If I were either of them I think I'd tell the NFL to pound sand before I showed my in NY at the league office.
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
I'm not really up on NFL discipline arbitrations. I assume witnesses are under oath. Does anyone know for sure? Shit gets real when perjury is on the table, which is something that I don't think the press has tumbled to yet.
As I think about it more, it seems to me that Goodell may well have decided he needs to hear the case, because as the hearing officer he can decide whether a witnesses' testimony is relevant. He may very well decide against allowing Brady to call certain people like Kensil or Harbaugh, or whatever, on relevance grounds, to avoid them having to testify under penalty of perjury.
Also, have there really been many other NFL discipline arbitrations where there has been a significant fact dispute -- a he said/she said? I'm not that up to speed on Bountygate. But I presume it has been made clear to Brady that he's going to have to testify under oath. And that likely means Goodell is going to have expressly find that Brady is perjuring himself. I don't know that the stakes have been quite like this in other NFL arbitrations.
As I think about it more, it seems to me that Goodell may well have decided he needs to hear the case, because as the hearing officer he can decide whether a witnesses' testimony is relevant. He may very well decide against allowing Brady to call certain people like Kensil or Harbaugh, or whatever, on relevance grounds, to avoid them having to testify under penalty of perjury.
Also, have there really been many other NFL discipline arbitrations where there has been a significant fact dispute -- a he said/she said? I'm not that up to speed on Bountygate. But I presume it has been made clear to Brady that he's going to have to testify under oath. And that likely means Goodell is going to have expressly find that Brady is perjuring himself. I don't know that the stakes have been quite like this in other NFL arbitrations.
I wonder if whatever employment agreement they signed way back when (if there was one) stipulated that they had to take part in disciplinary proceedings or face a fine or loss of wages or something. Purely guessing, though.RetractableRoof said:
They were suspended not fired. But in any event they can't be forced to participate in the appeal. This isn't a legal proceeding.RetractableRoof said:
EDIT: But as leather says, they can be punished by the NFL (but given that you thought that they have already been fired, I think you mean whether they can be punished by a state or fed court).
One thing that I am sure is involved in context is that these guys probably adopted a lot of the locker room slang of the players whose jocks they were paid to sniff. Thus you have expressions like go to ESPN , deflate and Dorito Dink..djbayko said:
There is always a vernacular in any workplace that is hard to understand for an outsider.
There is no Rev said:
I loved that comment too.
The problem wasn't the comment; it was the vindictive asshole it was directed at.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
As far as I know, all the appeals proceedings are behind closed doors and not under oath.
Fwiw, the more I read about Bountygate the more the whole thing stinks. Does this sound familiar (quote from Drew Brees)?
There is no Rev said:
Only other media I can compare this is with Korean (not sure of Japanese or Chinese) but it is pretty obvious that the American media takes special glee in taking down the "golden" boy/girl/company/celebrity.
Korean media does it too, but when it happens there's a collective sadness, almost an apologetic tone to it. Here in the States, there's joy & even pride in this type of mob activity (now it's with Tweets & posts instead of tar & feather).
SeoulSoxFan said:
The political and philosophical differences between the countries (and Japanese and many Chinese strains would be more like the Korean, in my experience) are exactly what I'm thinking of. America is a younger tradition and much of this reeks of democracy gone wrong in villifying excellence as undermining the notion of human equality.
The thing is, the lesson was supposed to be that people aren't equal in terms of being similar, they are equal with respect to human dignity even in the face of obvious differences.
Demanding that we reject the notion of excellence at the altar of equality is very, very bad for a people. Older traditions that embrace excellence get this--it's pretty much a staple of kung fu and samurai movies, even the ones that favor democracy. (For the truly geek, it's also the key theme in Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.)
