Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?

[bowiac]

The thing I find infuriating about people complaining about the draft as luck based is that they are ignoring that ANY way to build a team is unlikely to work. Hoping for premier to free agents to sign with you is also likely to be an unfulfilled dream. (There are way more Lebron suitors than there are Lebrons, and over 80% of free agent signing are overpays.) Trades have a number of hidden costs that fans ignore. (Negotiation leverage, coaching/locker room fit, you usually have to give expensive extensions to the guys you traded for, etc.)

If the Sixers young players are busts it will be a disaster. But if Dwight's back gives out then the Rockets are screwed too.

Exactly. Something like 26 teams need to get pretty lucky to turn into a competitor. The 76ers don't have an Anthony Davis prospect or anything, but they've got some nice pieces in MCW, Noel, and a better draft pick than the Celtics have.
 
Carter-Williams isn't a star, but he's a very strong defensive guy who generates offensive value that way as well. Given he was a rookie, I'm not too worried about the shooting yet.

 

[Devizier]

- if philadelphia's raw talent is better than the celtics' why was their record markedly worse?
- carter-williams is big and it's fun to imagine him as the next coming of ron harper, but this is a guy who couldn't shoot, even in college. his fg% was identical to austin rivers' and most posters here are currently charting rivers' plane fares to europe. 
- besides carter-williams, who would be competing with avery bradley for missed buckets, thad young is the only sixer who could crack the celtics' rotation.
- having players who don't suck is only part of the equation, and philadelphia has some tasty draft picks. but tons of draft picks -- even high ones! -- wash out or are disappointing (ask evan turner!). good teams recognize that fact and try to populate their roster with guys who have proven capable at playing NBA basketball. 

 

[Swedgin]

- if philadelphia's raw talent is better than the celtics' why was their record markedly worse?
- carter-williams is big and it's fun to imagine him as the next coming of ron harper, but this is a guy who couldn't shoot, even in college. his fg% was identical to austin rivers' and most posters here are currently charting rivers' plane fares to europe. 
- besides carter-williams, who would be competing with avery bradley for missed buckets, thad young is the only sixer who could crack the celtics' rotation.
- having players who don't suck is only part of the equation, and philadelphia has some tasty draft picks. but tons of draft picks -- even high ones! -- wash out or are disappointing (ask evan turner!). good teams recognize that fact and try to populate their roster with guys who have proven capable at playing NBA basketball. 

I am not particularly high on Philly, but this argument is a straw man.  Philly was tanking last year and deliberately trotted out what amounted to a D-League lineup for the last third of the season.   I don't see how Philly's talent level this past season is relevant to the conversation.
 
If Boston cannot land Love, then Philly's long term outlook will be better than that of the Celtics.  However, for purposes of Love's decision making Philly's path to contention is too long and uncertain to make them an acceptable destination.   With Boston, he is virtually guaranteed to make the playoffs in year 1 and will likely get out of the first round if Ainge can add a defensive minded 5.  

 

[Devizier]

I am not particularly high on Philly, but this argument is a straw man.  Philly was tanking last year and deliberately trotted out what amounted to a D-League lineup for the last third of the season.   I don't see how Philly's talent level this past season is relevant to the conversation.

 
Philadelphia tanked by dropping Hawes and Turner from the roster. But the point is the same, since they didn't get anything substantive in return.
 
Even if you can credibly argue that Philadelphia has better talent (currently) than the Celtics, my point about Carter-Williams being a marginal NBA starter still stands.

 

[Infield Infidel]

They also had a first rounder sit the whole season, a guy who pre-injury was rated as the #1 draft prospect. 

 

[Cellar-Door]

- if philadelphia's raw talent is better than the celtics' why was their record markedly worse?
- carter-williams is big and it's fun to imagine him as the next coming of ron harper, but this is a guy who couldn't shoot, even in college. his fg% was identical to austin rivers' and most posters here are currently charting rivers' plane fares to europe. 
- besides carter-williams, who would be competing with avery bradley for missed buckets, thad young is the only sixer who could crack the celtics' rotation.
- having players who don't suck is only part of the equation, and philadelphia has some tasty draft picks. but tons of draft picks -- even high ones! -- wash out or are disappointing (ask evan turner!). good teams recognize that fact and try to populate their roster with guys who have proven capable at playing NBA basketball. 

The 76ers are rebuilding with a really shallow roster. Basically MCW, Noel, and Thad Young are the guys on that team.
The Celtics won more games because we have a bunch of mediocre vets like Bass, and Green.
 
I'd have to think pretty hard if the Celtics were able to swap rosters with the 76ers.
 
Rondo is the clear best player on either team but unsigned after this year.
 
MCW just had a slightly better version of Rondo's 1st year offensively, he has potential and is locked up Cheap.
Noel is a good talent at C, I'd probably rather have him than Olynyk.
Thad Young is a much better asset on a sligthtly better contract than Green.
 
They also have about $36M in cap room. So yes I would probably swap rosters with them.

 

[bowiac]

The Celtics were better than the 76ers last year because the 76ers top 2 assets didn't play (their pick this year, and Noel last year), and because the Celtics got strong contributions from Bass, Humphries, and Jordan Crawford, none of which are going to be around long.
 
Rondo might be the best player on either team, but given his age/health/contract status, he's not a top asset.  In terms of the assets between the teams, my guess is they'd rank something like:
 
1. 76ers first round pick this year (#3).
2. Nerlens Noel.
3. Celtics first round pick this year (#6).
4. MCW.
5. Rondo.
6. 76ers first round pick this year (#10).
 
It gets dicey after this. Don't know between the #17 pick this year and those later Brooklyn picks for instance.

 

[wutang112878]

If there is a draw for Love, I have to believe a large part of it is the Celtics future picks, the 2 first rounders in 15, and 2 in 16, and swap in 17 and 2 in 18.  Danny can make the case 'lets go develop some assets and a decent core and then the reinforcements are coming year after year after year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

They also had a first rounder sit the whole season, a guy who pre-injury was rated as the #1 draft prospect. 

Where would he go in this draft? I like Noel's future as a complimentary player in 4-5 years once he gains some size/strength and figures out the ropes of the NBA.....and while you are correct that he was the top prospect last year that class wasn't your typical draft class. Noel would be in the #5-7 range in this draft and not in the Top-4 group of projected stars.

Edit: I'd be surprised if the ROI on Rondo isn't much greater than MCW.

 

[moondog80]

The Celtics were better than the 76ers last year because the 76ers top 2 assets didn't play (their pick this year, and Noel last year), and because the Celtics got strong contributions from Bass, Humphries, and Jordan Crawford, none of which are going to be around long.
 
Rondo might be the best player on either team, but given his age/health/contract status, he's not a top asset.  In terms of the assets between the teams, my guess is they'd rank something like:
 
1. 76ers first round pick this year (#3).
2. Nerlens Noel.
3. Celtics first round pick this year (#6).
4. MCW.
5. Rondo.
6. 76ers first round pick this year (#10).
 
It gets dicey after this. Don't know between the #17 pick this year and those later Brooklyn picks for instance.

 
 
So the 6th pick in last year's crappy draft, who is coming off a major injury and has yet to play int he NBA, is worth more than the 6th pick in this year's supposedly loaded draft?
 
I would not trade the 6th pick for Noel.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I'd put the 6 over Noel as they are similar value players but Noel has 1 less affordable year.

 

[bowiac]

So the 6th pick in last year's crappy draft, who is coming off a major injury and has yet to play int he NBA, is worth more than the 6th pick in this year's supposedly loaded draft?
 
I would not trade the 6th pick for Noel.

Noel was the consensus #1 and slipped to 6 because he was coming off a major injury. Even with the injury, it was a pretty big surprise he didn't go #1 overall. I have no idea if he's healthy, but he was a good prospect in any draft given his performance and physical tools. I'd take him 3rd or 4th in this year's draft, and probably 2nd if I knew 100% he'd be healthy.
 
The contractual issue as Celler-Door mentions is salient, but I'd still chance talent over the extra year of team control.

 

[moondog80]

Noel was the consensus #1 and slipped to 6 because he was coming off a major injury. Even with the injury, it was a pretty big surprise he didn't go #1 overall. I have no idea if he's healthy, but he was a good prospect in any draft given his performance and physical tools. I'd take him 3rd or 4th in this year's draft, and probably 2nd if I knew 100% he'd be healthy.
 
The contractual issue as Celler-Door mentions is salient, but I'd still chance talent over the extra year of team control.

 
What has changed between last year and this year to improve his draft position, in a draft where the competition is much more intense?  Remember, at the time it was thought that he would be in uniform by the end of 2013, so it's not like teams were scared off by the prospect of a lost season.  He hasn't played so  questions about how he has recovered form surgery have still not been answered.  My guess is that there's zero chance he would go ahead of Embid/Wiggins/Parker/Exum, and I'm skeptical that he'd enter the next tier of Gordon/Vonleh, etc.  What about Alex Len, Ben McLemore, Anthony Bennett...if you could freeze them in 2013 and transplant them in this years draft (so with no knowledge of their first year of suck), would they go that high too? I'll never be able track it down but I recall a line from Chad Ford last year that there were about 7 or 8 guys from the 2014 draft that would have gone 1st in 2013. 

 

[bowiac]

What has changed between last year and this year to improve his draft position, in a draft where the competition is much more intense?  Remember, at the time it was thought that he would be in uniform by the end of 2013, so it's not like teams were scared off by the prospect of a lost season.  He hasn't played so  questions about how he has recovered form surgery have still not been answered.  My guess is that there's zero chance he would go ahead of Embid/Wiggins/Parker/Exum, and I'm skeptical that he'd enter the next tier of Gordon/Vonleh, etc.  What about Alex Len, Ben McLemore, Anthony Bennett...if you could freeze them in 2013 and transplant them in this years draft (so with no knowledge of their first year of suck), would they go that high too? I'll never be able track it down but I recall a line from Chad Ford last year that there were about 7 or 8 guys from the 2014 draft that would have gone 1st in 2013. 

Well, good to know something Chad Ford said before the college season about these guys is dispositive.
 
Seriously though, what's changed is he's (supposedly) healthy now. A healthy Nerlens Noel was expected to go #1 in the draft last year. An injured Noel went 6th (which was a shock even then). It's not exactly crazy to think that Noel's draft stock would improve just by waiting to be healthy. I also don't think we should lock in his draft position last year as indicative of his value. As I've said, it was a major surprise he fell to 6th, and increasingly looks like a mistake given the performance of many of the guys ahead of him.
 
I'm not like in love with Noel or something, but I do value talent. Noel isn't a guy who slipped to 6th cause of performance issues. He slipped to 6th cause he got hurt. His level of play was actually very high.

 

[moondog80]

Well, good to know something Chad Ford said before the college season about these guys is dispositive.
 
Seriously though, what's changed is he's (supposedly) healthy now. A healthy Nerlens Noel was expected to go #1 in the draft last year. An injured Noel went 6th (which was a shock even then). It's not exactly crazy to think that Noel's draft stock would improve just by waiting to be healthy. I also don't think we should lock in his draft position last year as indicative of his value. As I've said, it was a major surprise he fell to 6th, and increasingly looks like a mistake given the performance of many of the guys ahead of him.
 
I'm not like in love with Noel or something, but I do value talent. Noel isn't a guy who slipped to 6th cause of performance issues. He slipped to 6th cause he got hurt. His level of play was actually very high.

 
Chad Ford's word is not gospel, but he talks to a lot more NBA guys than me and you (presumably), so I'll give his take a little bit of weight.
 
For any team who was concerned about his knee last year, why would they no longer be worried?  The surgery took place 3 months prior to the draft, so everyone knew that there were no complications.  Was there some question about his recovery that has now been answered?   If anything, it's gone worse than expected, he was expected to play at least half the season.  And we still don't know how he will hold up to 30 minutes a game in the NBA.   I guess you could say that the teams that passed on him wanted to win more games in Nov and Dec of 2013, but teams picking that high usually aren't that short-sighted.
 
 
Also, it wasn't just the injury.  There were concerns (and presumably still are) about  his weight.  From his ESPN draft profile:
 

 Noel weighed in at 206 pounds -- shockingly light for a player projected to be a center in the NBA. I went back and combed through the measurements of draft prospects I've collected for the past decade. I couldn't find anyone listed as a center who was that light. The closest legit NBA player I could find? The Milwaukee Bucks' Larry Sanders, who weighed 222 when he was drafted in 2010, and the Chicago Bulls' Joakim Noah, who weighed 223 in 2007. Noel is more than 15 pounds lighter than either of those players. Noah isn't a great comp because he was much more skilled offensively. Sanders is a better comparison. They have similar bodies. But during Sanders' breakout year this season, he weighed 235 pounds. Noel is almost 30 pounds away.  "It's an issue," one GM said. "You look at the guys who really excel right now in the NBA at the center position and you wonder how in the world Noel can play with those guys right now. But you have to remember a couple of things. He can put on weight, and since he won't be back from injury until December or January at the earliest, it gives us a lot of time to start working on packing on the pounds. But more importantly to our staff -- and I asked everyone on our staff this question -- if he's not No. 1, then who is? I got a lot of blank stares when I asked that question. Someone has to go No. 1. If you have a better prospect, I'd like to know.  [/size]

 
 
So yes, Noel was the consensus #1 pick, and it was a surprise to see him fall.  But that was because nobody else was any good.

 

[moly99]

What has changed between last year and this year to improve his draft position, in a draft where the competition is much more intense?

Why did Andre Drummond fall to ninth? Because NBA GM's are way behind their counterparts in MLB and the NFL, and depending on the draft the top 5 teams may either feel that "you can't teach size" and draft Darko or Hasheem Thabeet #2 or think the league has changed and value wings over developmental big men.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Why did Andre Drummond fall to ninth? Because NBA GM's are way behind their counterparts in MLB and the NFL, and depending on the draft the top 5 teams may either feel that "you can't teach size" and draft Darko or Hasheem Thabeet #2 or think the league has changed and value wings over developmental big men.

Why was Mike Kelly, Joe Vitiello, Mark Smith and Doug Glanville drafted in the top-12 overall of their draft ahead of Manny Ramirez? Of all the major sports leagues you see more low draft picks succeed in baseball then any other sport and as many if not more 1st round picks fail......does this mean scouting in MLB is behind the other sports?

18-year old 7-footers are more of a crapshoot than any other position as you have to project a kids work ethic who has likely never had to work to dominate growing up. The other thing is you are judging production in a league, the NCAA, whose rules are very restrictive for bigs. Both Drummond and Steven Adams had extremely low usage rates due to defenses packing in a zone while their guards were out to "get theirs." Did we know if Drummond would learn how to work at his craft or turn into Eddy Curry, a similarly skills manchild?

 

[ivanvamp]

Yes. We have a $10.3m traded player exception from the Nets trade that must be exercised this summer or deemed worthless. This was created as the difference of Pierce (15.3m) and Keith Bogans gift contract (5.0m) to make last summers deal fit under the required guidelines. The most logical use of this is to Houston for Asik as the Rockets need the salary space of Asik and Lin to go after Carmelo, Bosh or LeBron if any/all of them opt-out of their contracts this summer.

Aside from the TPE we have staggered another $10m expiring salary slot the following summer in Gerald Wallace so we will have the opportunity to include future 1st round picks with Wallace for another $10-15m player. Wallace's contract CAN be combined with other contacts to acquire a higher paid player while the TPE CANNOT be combined with another players salary however is an ideal salary match for Asik depending on the picks Houston accepts.

For a hypothetical example, next summer we have Love and Rondo......and could trade Wallace, Green and multiple 1st rounders for a player making in the $20m range annually to pair with Love and Rondo.

 
So add Pierce this year for a farewell tour.  Draft a wing scorer like TJ Warren, trade for a rim protector in Asik, and then trade Wallace, Green, and a couple of 1st rounders for another stud?  (I don't know who the stud would be though)
 
2015-16 lineup
G - Rondo
G - $20m stud
F - Warren
F - Love
C - Asik
 
It might be interesting, anyway.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
So add Pierce this year for a farewell tour.  Draft a wing scorer like TJ Warren, trade for a rim protector in Asik, and then trade Wallace, Green, and a couple of 1st rounders for another stud?  (I don't know who the stud would be though)
 
2015-16 lineup
G - Rondo
G - $20m stud
F - Warren
F - Love
C - Asik
 
It might be interesting, anyway.

Assuming Ainge commits to Rondo (still not convinced he will pay him though) this is the recipe sans Pierce who I'd imagine already has his pad picked out adjacent to Doc Rivers street.

If we get Love I don't think we'll have the pick to select at 17 though. This is why it was so important to land in the top-3 of the draft....now we have include several other picks to get this done.

 

[Auger34]

HRB, who do you think that Wallace/Green/picks combo could fetch? With the way that (hypothetical) roster is set up it would need to be a wing player. The only one that would seem to be available is DeMar DeRozan and I am not sure he is a guy that you should move a ton of chips for.

 

[mcpickl]

HRB, who do you think that Wallace/Green/picks combo could fetch? With the way that (hypothetical) roster is set up it would need to be a wing player. The only one that would seem to be available is DeMar DeRozan and I am not sure he is a guy that you should move a ton of chips for.

I think HomeRunBaker was talking trading Wallace next summer, when he's got one year left on his deal.
 
Moving him with two years left, even adding a pick or two and/or Green likely brings you back nothing.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

HRB, who do you think that Wallace/Green/picks combo could fetch? With the way that (hypothetical) roster is set up it would need to be a wing player. The only one that would seem to be available is DeMar DeRozan and I am not sure he is a guy that you should move a ton of chips for.

I hadn't given it any thought but DeRozan would be an ideal guy as you would need offense around non-shooters Asik and Rondo. He took a huge leap last year but the Raptors would need to let him walk which isn't likely and would likely cost some #1's to boot.

Gordon Hayward? (not for $20m obviously)
Chandler Parsons? (in play if Rockets land Melo or Bron)

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think HomeRunBaker was talking trading Wallace next summer, when he's got one year left on his deal.
 
Moving him with two years left, even adding a pick or two and/or Green likely brings you back nothing.

Right. I was looking at additional pieces once we establish the fit following 2014-15. It's very difficult to completely turn over the roster in one year......although Ainge already has accomplished this once.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I hadn't given it any thought but DeRozan would be an ideal guy as you would need offense around non-shooters Asik and Rondo. He took a huge leap last year but the Raptors would need to let him walk which isn't likely and would likely cost some #1's to boot.

Gordon Hayward? (not for $20m obviously)
Chandler Parsons? (in play if Rockets land Melo or Bron)

No Derozan would not.
He's still a shitty shooting, inefficient scoring ball dominator.
He didn't take a leap last year, his usage was really high, he took more threes, and with the usage more FTs. He was just as inefficient as he's been his entire career.

 

[Devizier]

I would call him far from a "stud" wing, but Eric Gordon might be available next offseason. His price will probably depend a lot on how many games he misses this year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

No Derozan would not.
He's still a shitty shooting, inefficient scoring ball dominator.
He didn't take a leap last year, his usage was really high, he took more threes, and with the usage more FTs. He was just as inefficient as he's been his entire career.

Over the last 3 months of the season he absolutely was a force. We could have used such an "inefficient" shot creator in the 4th quarter of games last year. There is a ton of value in that skill in this league as we witnessed what a team looks like without this player down the stretch when defenses tighten up.

 

[moly99]

Why was Mike Kelly, Joe Vitiello, Mark Smith and Doug Glanville drafted in the top-12 overall of their draft ahead of Manny Ramirez? Of all the major sports leagues you see more low draft picks succeed in baseball then any other sport and as many if not more 1st round picks fail......does this mean scouting in MLB is behind the other sports?

There are more athletes in the pool for baseball and football, and they are far more skill-based than basketball. (Which makes it easier for the less athletically gifted guys to catch up with the top prospects by working hard.) Because basketball (in particular NBA basketball) is so biased towards a rare combination of height and athleticism it is easier to identify the best prospects. Also there are only 2 rounds in the NBA draft vs 7 for the NFL and 40 for MLB.

18-year old 7-footers are more of a crapshoot than any other position as you have to project a kids work ethic who has likely never had to work to dominate growing up. The other thing is you are judging production in a league, the NCAA, whose rules are very restrictive for bigs. Both Drummond and Steven Adams had extremely low usage rates due to defenses packing in a zone while their guards were out to "get theirs." Did we know if Drummond would learn how to work at his craft or turn into Eddy Curry, a similarly skills manchild?

I'll throw another objection to big men on top of yours. They are also more injury prone.

But the reward of finding a good center are greater than any other position as well. (Much like QB's in football, though obviously not as extreme.) Passing on a potential all-NBA center because you don't want to be bothered trying to develop that player is crazy. Although I'm sure Larry Brown would disagree.

I'm glad to have had this discussion, though, since it shows the root of the disparity between those people who want a Love and Rondo core and those who object to that because it will likely yield a 4 seed team with a slim chance of improving. This is an argument between the certainty of an entertaining and playoff capable team vs the gamble of building a championship team.

 

[Auger34]

I think HomeRunBaker was talking trading Wallace next summer, when he's got one year left on his deal.
 
Moving him with two years left, even adding a pick or two and/or Green likely brings you back nothing.

 I know what he meant, never said it had to be done this offseason. I am just saying it was tough to find such a wing player that would be available at that time. I guess the best option is Wallace and 2 picks for DeRozan, then hope you can draft and develop some more wings. Maybe you can trade Green for a more talented player on a contract just as bad as Uncle Jeff's. (Tyreke Evans? Danny is rumored to have been a long time fan)

 

[Cellar-Door]

 I know what he meant, never said it had to be done this offseason. I am just saying it was tough to find such a wing player that would be available at that time. I guess the best option is Wallace and 2 picks for DeRozan, then hope you can draft and develop some more wings. Maybe you can trade Green for a more talented player on a contract just as bad as Uncle Jeff's. (Tyreke Evans? Danny is rumored to have been a long time fan)

I would personally burn down Danny Ainge's house if he traded two 1st for DeMar "I swear I'm not the shitty Ricky Davis" DeRozan.

 

[wutang112878]

Over the last 3 months of the season he absolutely was a force. We could have used such an "inefficient" shot creator in the 4th quarter of games last year. There is a ton of value in that skill in this league as we witnessed what a team looks like without this player down the stretch when defenses tighten up.

 
Jeff Green was also a force for 3 months here before.  DeMar's PPS over the years (starting at his rookie year): 1.29, 1.22, 1.16, 1.2, 1.27 and between Oct and Jan his PPS this year was 1.2  He's an inefficient scorer who started shooting more and happened to have a hot 3 months.  I remember when we were talking about Jeff Green over the summer and everyone was ready for him to keep improving because you know he had those incredible 3 months, but then Jeff Green went back to being Jeff Green, these things happen.

 

[Devizier]

I don't love Derozan but he gets to the line a ton and is pretty decent overall.

More to the point, there aren't a lot of great wings in the league. You have about five elite guys and then a cluster of solid supporting guys like Batum, Leonard, Iguodala, etc. Derozan isn't far behind that group, if he is at all.

 

[wutang112878]

Even if skill wise he isnt far behind, his attributes still make him more of a flawed player and less desirable to me.  His outside shooting is putrid, like Avery Bradley putrid, so any smart defense is going to sag and stop him from getting those precious free throws and without those his offensive numbers really look bad.  Compare that to Batum who is a pretty good 3pt shooter and then an adequate inside the arc player without one fatal flaw that could completely take away his effectiveness.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Jeff Green was also a force for 3 months here before.  DeMar's PPS over the years (starting at his rookie year): 1.29, 1.22, 1.16, 1.2, 1.27 and between Oct and Jan his PPS this year was 1.2  He's an inefficient scorer who started shooting more and happened to have a hot 3 months.  I remember when we were talking about Jeff Green over the summer and everyone was ready for him to keep improving because you know he had those incredible 3 months, but then Jeff Green went back to being Jeff Green, these things happen.

You're not giving DeRozan his due on the season he just completed. Green was never a shoo-in to be selected to an All Star team and has never played at a level of DeRozan last year and in the playoffs. It was much more than simply a couple of hot months and increased shot opportunities. He went to the line more and nearly doubled his assist total over the course of the regular season then put up 24/4/4 in the playoffs against playoff-level defense.....that isn't a fluke and he's still only 24. It won't matter then since the Raptors wouldn't gift him to us anyway.

 

[Cellar-Door]

You're not giving DeRozan his due on the season he just completed. Green was never a shoo-in to be selected to an All Star team and has never played at a level of DeRozan last year and in the playoffs. It was much more than simply a couple of hot months and increased shot opportunities. He went to the line more and nearly doubled his assist total over the course of the regular season then put up 24/4/4 in the playoffs against playoff-level defense.....that isn't a fluke and he's still only 24. It won't matter then since the Raptors wouldn't gift him to us anyway.

It was 7 games,he took 17 shots a game and used 28% of all possessions. Also your rounding is terrible. I'll allow rounding 3.7 to 4, but 3.2 is 3.
Kyle Lowry had a better series putting up 21/5/5 on better shooting, I don't see teams lining up to give him big money.
Listen he's not a terrible player, he's basically Ricky Davis. That isn't a guy you trade a lot to get, or give more than 9M a year. He's fine for what he is.
To continue the playoff small sample comparison with Jeff Green: 20.3/5.3/2.3 on 14 shots and 24% usage were Green's 2012 numbers.

 

[Auger34]

I don't love Derozan but he gets to the line a ton and is pretty decent overall.
More to the point, there aren't a lot of great wings in the league. You have about five elite guys and then a cluster of solid supporting guys like Batum, Leonard, Iguodala, etc. Derozan isn't far behind that group, if he is at all.

 
After looking at the group of SG/SF this is exactly true. DeRozan is absolutely in that group and will probably be the only one that is available. You have to pay a premium for the scarcity.
I would do a trade of Uncle Jeff plus 3 picks (2 lottery protected firsts and a 2nd?) for DeRozan in a heartbeat. Just dont think Raptors accept that

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
After looking at the group of SG/SF this is exactly true. DeRozan is absolutely in that group and will probably be the only one that is available. You have to pay a premium for the scarcity.
I would do a trade of Uncle Jeff plus 3 picks (2 lottery protected firsts and a 2nd?) for DeRozan in a heartbeat. Just dont think Raptors accept that

That is how you end up a terrible team for a long time. Massively overpaying for mediocre talent. Two firsts and a decent player should be getting you a star.

 

[moly99]

DeRozan is a fungible asset. The Celtics have a ton of picks coming their way over the next five years. Those picks should get us enough mediocre starters and rotation players to fill out the roster. What we need are a couple of stars.

 

[Auger34]

Two lottery protected firsts and a decent player on a bad contract? I don't think that gets you any stars. How many wings are better than DeRozan in the NBA right now? Which of them do you think would be available in a trade? I think he is in the top 10-12 and I don't think any of the players above him would be available.

 

[Auger34]

Harden, LeBron, Durant, Wade, Ginobli, Paul George, and Kawhi have no shot at being traded.
Doubt Portland would want to mess with what they have so Matthews and Batum are off the board.
Houston has bigger things in mind for Parsons than Green and some picks.  
I don't think anyone is going to jump on the table for Hayward over DeRozan and with Hayward being an FA, the contracts will probably be similar.
Maybe Phoenix would let Goran Dragic go?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Harden, LeBron, Durant, Wade, Ginobli, Paul George, and Kawhi have no shot at being traded.
Doubt Portland would want to mess with what they have so Matthews and Batum are off the board.
Houston has bigger things in mind for Parsons than Green and some picks.  
I don't think anyone is going to jump on the table for Hayward over DeRozan and with Hayward being an FA, the contracts will probably be similar.
Maybe Phoenix would let Goran Dragic go?

I don't get why that means we should trade a bunch of assets for a mediocre SG? Why wouldn't we just build a really good team, and draft a SG, or pay a comprable but maybe slightly worse SG money in FA and use the draft picks to get a legit star somewhere else like C?
 
This whole DeRozan conversation reminds me of the OJ Mayo conversation a few years ago.

 

[Kliq]

I hate the idea of trading important picks and assets for anybody but a franchise, top 15 guy. When I heard that Melo and Love were both in play, I was all for it because in the NBA, you don't win with 5 top 30 players, you win with two or three top 15-20 players. If we trade assets for someone like DeRozan (who is a quality player, imo) I just don't see that as a proper way to build in the NBA. If we trade for Melo and Love (or players of equal caliber) it would take the house, pretty much all of your young players and draft picks and expiring contracts and everything, but that is exactly what Danny should do.
 
When a team trades everything for a few stars, they are able to recover very quickly. Why? Because a team that gets cornerstone players will immediately attract the attention of FA, because they are signaling that they are ready for a title push. Look at the Heat. They cleared everything and gave all of their money to three players. There was a period where the Heat roster was just a late-1st round pick, Mario Chalmers, and the big 3. A lot of people said that they would never be able to put together a capable supporting cast. But smart, capable veterans who made their money and just want to win notice that, and suddenly they are flocking to Miami on a discount. Battier, Ray Allen, Chris Andersen, Mike Miller and others. Same can be said for when the Celtics got Ray and KG. Suddenly James Posey, Sam Cassell, Eddie House and PJ Brown are coming aboard.
 
If you are trading some of the picks for DeRozan, how much is that really getting you? Maybe 3-5 extra wins? For the Celtics, that isn't a big enough difference. Either trade everything for big time franchise players, or build through the draft.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Harden, LeBron, Durant, Wade, Ginobli, Paul George, and Kawhi have no shot at being traded.
Doubt Portland would want to mess with what they have so Matthews and Batum are off the board.
Houston has bigger things in mind for Parsons than Green and some picks.  
I don't think anyone is going to jump on the table for Hayward over DeRozan and with Hayward being an FA, the contracts will probably be similar.
Maybe Phoenix would let Goran Dragic go?

 
Phoenix might let Goran Dragic go to the bathroom if he asks politely.  I highly doubt they are going to actually let him go - the guy is a superstar and their best player who just came off of a break-out season.  The only reason people don't hear about him more is that Slovenians all look the same and he plays in city/state so off the radar that WitSec uses it for most of their relocations.

 

[Auger34]

Kliq,
That's a very fair explanation and I agree with the point.
I guess what I am trying to say (and I don't want to speak for him, but HRB seemed to be inferring the same in the post about using Green/Wallace plus picks for another stud in a trade), is that if we acquire Rondo and Love the smart money is on Ainge trying to acquire that third banana via trade.
Maybe I was too limited in only looking at wings (SG/SF is really depressing in the NBA right now, not many quality players). Let me rephrase what I was saying, what players do you think would be available that could be that 3rd banana? You are obviously looking for a rim protector or another quality shooter (basically any position other than PF, Rondo could pair well with a PG who can shoot well). Who could that player be? Uncle Drew? Horford looks like he will be traded this offseason but he would be a good person to pair with Love. Noah would be great but that's a pipe dream. Maybe Cousins after next year? Definitely not a rim protector but is young enough and talented enough to maybe get to that point and mesh with Love Just trying to figure out some possibilities that could work for the C's as a 3rd banana.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Kliq,
That's a very fair explanation and I agree with the point.
I guess what I am trying to say (and I don't want to speak for him, but HRB seemed to be inferring the same in the post about using Green/Wallace plus picks for another stud in a trade), is that if we acquire Rondo and Love the smart money is on Ainge trying to acquire that third banana via trade.
Maybe I was too limited in only looking at wings (SG/SF is really depressing in the NBA right now, not many quality players). Let me rephrase what I was saying, what players do you think would be available that could be that 3rd banana? You are obviously looking for a rim protector or another quality shooter (basically any position other than PF, Rondo could pair well with a PG who can shoot well). Who could that player be? Uncle Drew? Horford looks like he will be traded this offseason but he would be a good person to pair with Love. Noah would be great but that's a pipe dream. Maybe Cousins after next year? Definitely not a rim protector but is young enough and talented enough to maybe get to that point and mesh with Love Just trying to figure out some possibilities that could work for the C's as a 3rd banana.

2015 class is loaded.
Gasol, Jordan, Aldridge, Lopez, Hibbert, Afflalo, Dragic,
That's just unrestricted guys. There is a nice RFA class, and as teams fall out of it this year there will likely be a few very good players on the block.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

It pains me to say it but if the C's were to trade for Love and retain Rondo, the only viable "third banana" out there who *might* be available is Melo.  I think a convincing case was made upthread that the Knicks wouldn't move him to the C's but they do have assets that would give the Knicks a lot of the flexibility they lack.  
 
Other than him, they are gambling on some mid-tier star who makes the leap.  I mean, do the C's brain-typing folks have the bandwidth (and the tools) to cope with a starting five comprised of Rondo, Asik and, say, Lance Stephenson?

 

[Cellar-Door]

It pains me to say it but if the C's were to trade for Love and retain Rondo, the only viable "third banana" out there who *might* be available is Melo.  I think a convincing case was made upthread that the Knicks wouldn't move him to the C's but they do have assets that would give the Knicks a lot of the flexibility they lack.  
 
Other than him, they are gambling on some mid-tier star who makes the leap.  I mean, do the C's brain-typing folks have the bandwidth (and the tools) to cope with a starting five comprised of Rondo, Asik and, say, Lance Stephenson?

You don't have to get everyone in one year. Especially not when you have the future assets the Celtics will still have after the Love trade.
Why not let things shake out through next season, rather than committing long term to someone like Lance.
I wouldn't mid Asik if he came very cheap, but there is no reason you need to build your long term starting 5 all in one offseason.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

You don't have to get everyone in one year. Especially not when you have the future assets the Celtics will still have after the Love trade.
Why not let things shake out through next season, rather than committing long term to someone like Lance.
I wouldn't mid Asik if he came very cheap, but there is no reason you need to build your long term starting 5 all in one offseason.

 
I hear you but the only guys you mentioned upthread (unrestricted) aren't likely to be available, save maybe for Jordan or Hibbert.  I mean, Jordan would be a perfect compliment for someone like Love but the guy is going to cost and has huge flaws.   There just is no easy solution out there... which means '86 probably has something up his sleeve.

 

[Kliq]

Melo frustrates me and I have often said that he can't be the best player on a championship level team, but, if we can get him to pull a Pierce (hell, bring PP back in) and mature as a player, then him, Love, Rondo, and a bunch of veterans that sign on in hopes of competing for a ring, then we have something big. Pierce was immature when he was first here, but he grew up and turned himself into a complete professional, the captain, and a first-ballot HoF player. Anthony can do the exact same thing because he is so outrageously talented, he just needs to figure some things out, and maybe Pierce can help.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

For what it's worth, on the actual website the guy/gal proposed sending Wallace and a first to Milwaukee for Larry Sanders.
 
Personally, I think he's more expensive than that. But that was part of the plan folks are discussing.

 

[Devizier]

I suppose with that plan, the Celtics could still trade the Pierce TPE for Asik? That would be a pretty expensive team, in line with the Lakers and Mavericks. I think that the Celtics can still point to Tony Parker's contract with the Spurs (4/50) in their negotiations with Rondo. On the other hand, Rondo can rightly point to the Jeff Green contract and call bullshit on them.