Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?

[wutang112878]

This whole DeRozan conversation reminds me of the OJ Mayo conversation a few years ago.

 
This is a great example to highlight my belief about the fatal flaw / balance of a player which makes 2 relatively equally skilled players very different.  Both DeRozan and Mayo are career 46% 2pt FG shooters, but DeRozan gets many more free throws.  Both have about the same career TS% (which takes into account free throws) DeRozan at 52.6% and Mayo at 53.4%  However, Mayo hits his 3s at a career 38% clip whereas DeRozan hits them at 26% 
 
Just looking at offense who is the easier guy to guard?  I'd argue Mayo because you cant just leave him open for 3s so you cant just sag on him, but thats exactly what you can do with DeRozan

 

[wutang112878]

I disagree. You're overvaluing the importance of role players and how replaceable they are. Not to mention the fact that creating another big three makes players around the league flock to that team.

You're also forgetting how about 5-10 role players get bought out mid-season and go to the teams with the best chance to win for the minimum.

You get the three and worry about the dime-a-dozen role players when it comes to that.

People had the same concern with the Heat's big three and in hindsight, it was a silly argument.

 
For those 3 to actually work on the court, Melo has to be willing to accept more of a ball sharing style which is a huge IF.  Otherwise, the great passing of Rondo and Love isnt utilized and the value they bring is really going to suffer.  My major critique is that its not just about the collection of talent but it needs to mesh together as well.  I just think about that last Lakers Dream Team with Shaq with Kobe, Gary Payton and Karl Malone.  They won a ton of games but were a dysfunctional group.  Once they faced the Pistons, who were playing great team basketball, in the Finals they crumbled and just won 1 game in the series. 
 
Our 2nd Big3 complimented each other wonderfully.  Pierce could drive to the hoop and create his own shot when needed.  Ray stretched the floor and would take high quality 2pt jumpers.  And KG was great at the kickout jumper and he also spaced the floor.  All this spacing allowed Rondo room to operate and hid Perks limited offensive abilities.
 
I do agree in general that we could just fill out those top 3 roster spots and fill the rest in relatively easily.  Its truly the top talent that matters the most on your roster.  However, I just dont think those top 3 guys would mesh well together.

 

[ALiveH]

the trade proposals above on celticslife seem pretty inefficient.  I'm pretty sure that's about 2 more picks than it would take to get Love.  Then they give up 2+ more assets just to clear salary just to have a shot at signing carmelo (what if he doesn't sign?).  Instead, they could just send over a few assets & salary filler in a trade to the knicks and be certain they get anthony.  plus they give up a bunch of young guys who are probably each about equivalent value to a 2nd round pick, i.e., not much but they add up (pressey, johnson, babb, faverani) & give up jeff green who has positive value to the right team.  i think net, if ainge is a strong negotiator they could save a bunch of assets (which could be turned into another good player), and retain the option to re-sign bradley.

 

[moly99]

I just can't believe you guys want to gut this team of its assets to end up as a 4 seed in the East.


Personally I think the current Nets team is in the worst possible situation an NBA team can be in. This plan to extend Rondo for the max, trade half our picks for Kevin Love and trade away all our promising role players to make room for us to overpay for Melo is the same kind of strategy. It's very simply going to kill the mid-term future of the team out of impatience.

 

[Brickowski]

I just can't believe you guys want to gut this team of its assets to end up as a 4 seed in the East.


Personally I think the current Nets team is in the worst possible situation an NBA team can be in. This plan to extend Rondo for the max, trade half our picks for Kevin Love and trade away all our promising role players to make room for us to overpay for Melo is the same kind of strategy. It's very simply going to kill the mid-term future of the team out of impatience.

Actually that hypothetical team would more closely resemble the 2012-13 Knicks, except without Tyson Chandler to provide some defense in the middle-- although if they also added Asik and a scorer off the bench like JR Smith, they'd be pretty close.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

I can think of plenty of players less suited. Rondo and bradley. Sully and olynyk. Wallace and anyone. The entire 2014 roster. Hyperbole is brutal. Melo and love would be a good 1-2. Stop over thinking this

 

[knucklecup]

if Chicago does make a Butler/Gibson/1st rounder offer, I could see Saunders preferring that.  

Would the mindset be to ensure that you have a top ten pick for the next five years?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Articles idea is likely unrealistic, and also has some details wrong.
 
His cap space available to sign Melo after salary dump is about 3.5M too high. Salary cap accounting always has to have a minimum of 12 slots accounted for. He only accounts for five. So have to add 7 cap holds at the minimum salary to compute for cap space.
 
At the end of the article, now that his team only has 5 guys, he says they can get bench help using the midlevel exception. That wouldn't be available here. Once you go under the salary cap, you give up all your exceptions for that league year. So Celtics wouldn't have midlevel, biannual, or even their trade exceptions. His entire bench would have to be made up of just minimum salary players.

It also ignores the Stepian rule.
The general premise works, the actual trades he uses make no sense.

 

[Devizier]

Besides, we all know the Celtics are signing Lebron after clearing out cap space.

 

[mcpickl]

It also ignores the Stepian rule.
The general premise works, the actual trades he uses make no sense.

He's OK on Stepien rule.
 
His plan has Celtics picking at #17 this year, and keeping one of their 2016 picks, so he's clear there.
 
Falls apart elsewhere, before even evaluating whether other teams would do those deals. Only realistic ideas to me are Love trade, cutting Pressey. Other three seem far fetched.

 

[Cellar-Door]

He's OK on Stepien rule.
 
His plan has Celtics picking at #17 this year, and keeping one of their 2016 picks, so he's clear there.
 
Falls apart elsewhere, before even evaluating whether other teams would do those deals. Only realistic ideas to me are Love trade, cutting Pressey. Other three seem far fetched.

Yeah I misread thought he had both 15 and both 16 going out.

 

[radsoxfan]

Isn't flip going to be more inclined to keep Love this year now that he's coaching?  His coaching reputation I can only assume has already taken a hit around the league, so I doubt he wants to be stuck coaching one of the worst teams in the league.  A Love-less wolves team in the West will be brutal.
 
In particular, there is no way the Celtics can come close to offering fair present value for Love.  Their whole offer to going to be based on the #6 pick, future picks, and probably Sullinger and/or Olynyk.  Hard to imagine Coach Saunders can stomach that.  This might make the Bulls offer (assuming some combo of Butler and Gibson plus picks), seem better since it probably keeps Minny more competitive in the short term. 

 

[Brickowski]

Isn't flip going to be more inclined to keep Love this year now that he's coaching?  His coaching reputation I can only assume has already taken a hit around the league, so I doubt he wants to be stuck coaching one of the worst teams in the league.  A Love-less wolves team in the West will be brutal.
 
In particular, there is no way the Celtics can come close to offering fair present value for Love.  Their whole offer to going to be based on the #6 pick, future picks, and probably Sullinger and/or Olynyk.  Hard to imagine Coach Saunders can stomach that.  This might make the Bulls offer (assuming some combo of Butler and Gibson plus picks), seem better since it probably keeps Minny more competitive in the short term.

Unless he's planning to channel his inner M.L. Carr.

 

[Luis Taint]

No bueno, Jackie Mac

 

[Devizier]

The Nets are a better comparison because they weren't weighted down by Stoudamire's contract and did make a trade for their "superstar" to start the rebuild. Starting the rebuild with a trade led to them overpaying for players each step of the way much like people are suggesting we do with Love, Rondo and Melo. The history of teams intentionally overpaying for the sake of satisfying a star is terrible. The Magic overpaying Rashard Lewis for Dwight is pretty much the best case scenario.

 
Kevin Love is arguably the best player drafted in the last six years. At the very least, he's in elite company with Anthony Davis (#1 pick overall), Blake Griffin (#1 pick overall), James Harden (#3 pick overall), and Russell Westbrook (#4 pick overall). Are you starting to catch my drift?
 
Conveniently, you left out the '08 Celtics, who had Paul Pierce on a max contract and traded for two more max contract players. However the Celtics acquire Kevin Love doesn't really matter, does it?

 

[Devizier]

I think it does kind of matter. The Celtics don't have an in-his-prime Paul Pierce on the roster. If they overpay for Love, they won't have the pieces to get their KG and Allen. But, yes, I do think it'd be a missed opportunity if they have a chance to acquire for reasonable price and pass.

 
The question is whether you believe Al Jefferson and the Jeff Green draft pick are worth more than whatever the current Celtics will have left after the Love trade.

 

[Devizier]

I understand your point. I just disagree with it. There's no chance in hell Kevin Love's next four seasons will be better than Anthony Davis'.

He is massively overrated by people who judge basketball on fantasy stats alone. He is a great rebounder and shooter, but he puts up those massive rebounding numbers in large part because he doesn't play defense.

 
1) "no chance" is overstating your case but generally, I would agree that Davis is a better player overall
2) the argument then is whether the Celtics can do better than Love with what will likely be a series of low-lottery draft picks. I'm wagering not, because draft picks are massively overrated by people who judge basketball by fantasy general management on bulletin boards.

 

[moly99]

1) "no chance" is overstating your case but generally, I would agree that Davis is a better player overall

OK. The only way Kevin Love is better over the next four years is if Davis suffers a career threatening injury.

2) the argument then is whether the Celtics can do better than Love with what will likely be a series of low-lottery draft picks. I'm wagering not, because draft picks are massively overrated by people who judge basketball by fantasy general management on bulletin boards.

There is an iterative advantage to tanking. The value of our draft picks next year will depend on our record, which means that if we create a mediocre team around Love then the draft pick won't be very valuable. But if we draft a rookie and develop him, we will have another top 10 pick next year; and very possibly a top 5 pick.

If we trade for Kevin Love our future picks will probably be of low value, but if we are patient and build through the draft then we will probably have another top 10 pick next year with enough cap space and expiring contracts to be able to make a move without gutting the team.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Unless we have an opportunity to trade for Davis I'm not sure how this discussion is even relevant to us building the team. Should we have not traded for KG because LeBron was better and younger?

 

[wutang112878]

KG was a much more complete and better player than Kobe Bryant could dream of being.

 
Not sure I can agree here.  Kobe has been named to 12 NBA all defensive teams, with the nature of his position he has less of a defensive impact.  He isnt as talented of a defender as KG was, but Kobe is also unquestionably a more talented offensive player than KG.  What makes it really difficult to judge is that they are polar opposite basketball players a defensively focused big vs an offensively focused guard.  I'm not saying Kobe is better, I just think its debatable as to who is better. 

 

[Marbleheader]

Cleaning up this thread and splitting out topics.