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Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by InstaFace, Oct 1, 2018.
Huh. What ever happened to Brighams?
Guess I just haven't been paying attention.
Declared bankruptcy a decade or so ago, last stores closed in 2013. You can still buy the ice cream in grocery stores, though.
Friendly's is still around, though, albeit far fewer than there used to be.
Holy shit is it Sunday yet?
You really should have written it "Sundae".
Just gonna hit the Hilltop steakhouse for dinner, little Brigham's for desert, then maybe the Eliot Lounge for drinks after.
Friendley’s was a mix of chains and independently owned. The chains closed due to bankruptcy. A lot of the independents stayed open.
I think this article misses the mark a bit. Deflategate and the two additional Super Bowls amplified the Brady love for sure, but the feelings fans had towards Brady were already entrenched before 2015. Brady and Belichick had been so obviously great, and seemed so professional, and had come so close to that fourth title multiple times, and yet all we heard was stupid SpyGate and stupid Peyton GOAT talk. It was already us against the world when it came to Brady before stupid psigate. I know I wanted that fourth title so much FOR THOSE TWO GUYS.
The rest of the country could and still can screw themselves; they tried to diminish these two -and tell us we were wrong- for nearly a decade, and Brady and Belichick went and proved their dominance beyond any reasonable doubt with everyone against them except their teammates and their fans.
It makes me angry every time I think about all these clowns everywhere.
But what is the writer supposed to say? We are all a bunch of idiots compared to Patriots fans?
I completely agree the 4th title was specifically for BB and TB12. Also the on to Cincinnati game was a galvanizing point for the fan base and its relationship with Brady. I believe that was the first ever “Brady” chant that now occurs quite regularly.
There is going to be an NFL ad during the Super Bowl celebrating 100 years of football or something. It's directed by Peter Berg and will feature every living legend and current star.
Brady, the GOAT, looks to be getting the hammer.
From today's Axios AM: "Happy Groundhog Day! Punxsutawney Phil came out this morning and saw four more seasons of Tom Brady.
Also, an early spring."
I’m going Prince Italian cuz I got pickup at Hockey Town latah.
There are already more inductees into the HOF (1) from Brady's draft class than there are other remaining active players (0) (non-kickers).
The draft class 0 has been the case since the end of the 2014 season.
(That said, Brady ironically does not even lead active players from his draft class in points: Janikowski is a machine out there!)
Tremendous piece by the great Mitch Albom in today's Detroit Free Press on how nobody who covered UM saw the GOAT in Brady when he played here--except his coach Lloyd Carr during Brady's last three games of his senior season. But even he thought Brady would be a 3rd or 4th rounder:
Boston Sports Info @bostonsportsinf 10m10 minutes ago
Tom Brady, now holds the all-time NFL career records, in the regular and post season in.. Wins - 237 Completions - 7,009* Attempts - 10,964* Passing Yards - 81,693 TD - 590 * - Broke record tonight
Brady should adopt a rescue dog and name him Max Kellerman.
The Rams played GREAT defense. Got lots of pressure on Brady and covered the receivers really well. He made that one horrific interception at the beginning and had a few other really bad throws (like the short screen to White that he bounced). But at the end of the day, he went 21-35 (60.0%) for 262 yards, and was 4-4 for 67 yards on the game-winning touchdown drive in the fourth quarter, including one of the best throws of his career (IMO) on that pass to Gronk to get to the two yard line.
Was basically like the dime he threw to LaFell against Ravens except there was an extra defender. Just a perfect throw and catch at exactly the right time.
Wrong thread for this silliness, but this is wrong. Friendly's shut down like 60 restaurants that just weren't putting asses in the seats, half of them where they were most densely packed already, MA. Nothing to do with chains/indy's
BTW, the preemptive argument for every Kellerman-esque hater who will try to argue that this was a 2015 Manning-esque performance—that Brady’s defense carried him in this game, has fallen off a cliff and is “lucky” to have won this game—should be that 1) he was magnificent and vintage two weeks earlier against KC and 2) last year he threw for 505 fucking yards in the Super Bowl and *lost*.
He was also magnificent on the lone TD drive.
This wasn’t Brady’s best game by any stretch, but he was money when it mattered.
And the guy falling off a cliff significantly outplayed the 24 year old upstart. If you want to talk about a terrible game, Goff is the conversation. He should have been picked twice, and possibly 3 times when McCourty had a pick 6 on a ball that was tipped. He was rattled the entire game. He made some terrible decisions on some of the sacks. A lot of his throws were ducks.
And he drove his team into the red zone a total of zero times and his punter kicked 9 punts.
Goff was simply horrible. He threw wounded duck after wounded duck, and is incredibly lucky he didn't have two or three more picked off.
The pass that McCourty broke up to Cooks in the back of the end zone may have been one of the worst throws I've seen from a starting NFL QB in years. If that ball is delivered with any zip at all it's an easy touchdown.
He still has a big arm, so you had to be worried he'd throw a home run ball and one is all it would have taken in the fourth quarter for them to get the lead or tie, if he could have pulled it off. Thankfully, he didn't.
If Goff lands that pass, obviously it's a completely different game. Instead he hucked up a duck and it sucked.
Exactly. Is Goff over the cliff?
I guess it's just the reality of the hot take world. The Patriots have dominated for almost two decades. It's literally unprecedented, so the person who correctly calls the end of the dynasty will have bragging rights. But considering this dynasty has died at least 47 billion times, it's worthless now.
Brady does what he does and it's usually incredible and he wins way more than he loses. He's started for 17 seasons and has made 9 Super Bowls and won 6. It should be celebrated but, instead, the goal of many is to predict his demise. It's disappointing.
Obviously, everyone knows at this point where I stand on the Tom Brady decline argument. I've been making it for years. The bottom line is that almost the entire world is now holding Tom Brady to a standard that is literally impossible to attain. If he's not literally perfect, then he's bad. If he makes a terrible throw, he's over the hill. If his team loses a game, even if he throws for 505 yards, if he made a mistake somewhere along the way, it's his fault they lost.
I will continue to wait until someone shows me a quarterback that is perfect. Until then, or until Tom Brady shows actual signs of decline, I will continue to be the happiest football fan on Earth when #12 is taking snaps for the Patriots. Tom Brady outplayed Jared Goff this week. He outplayed Patrick Mahomes 2 weeks ago, and he outplayed Philip Rivers a week before that. And that's all he needed to do. If any of them had outplayed him, the Lombardi wouldn't be heading back to Foxboro. But they didn't.
Anytime one of these morons talks about Tom Brady declining, the only response should be "Who would you rather have and why?"
And no matter how many people seem to have seen the "light" after this one, and are now claiming to recognize the greatness of Brady and the Pats, you know after the first loss next year, they'll be right back at it again.
They will be the first in line.
Maybe worth a whole separate thread, but when we're talking about the GOAT, what are the arguments for other QBs besides Brady?
- 4-0 in Super Bowls
- zero interceptions in Super Bowls (so he's played really well in them)
- Bigger career stats (which will only last until about a quarter of the way through next season)
- 5 MVPs
- Better rate stats
- "Can make throws nobody else can make" (or something like that)
- Better rate stats
- More career yards
- Not that anyone really is making the case that Brees is better
That's pretty much it, right? I mean, I still hear people talking about how Brady isn't the GOAT but it's hard to imagine that they're either serious or sane.
The argument from the haters is that he cheated. Not saying I agree with that, but many disqualify him on that basis.
Brees doesn't have better rate stats than Brady. Tom leads him in ANY/A, AV, and they're dead tied in passer rating.
The problem with a list like this is that it seems unlikely to me that none of QBs who should be under consideration played before 1980.
So basically....there really isn't an argument for any other QB besides maybe Montana, and that on the basis of being 4-0 in the Super Bowl, with an astoundingly great passer rating in those four games. (which, by the way, is a tremendously impressive mark on his side of the ledger, let's not kid ourselves)
There's AN argument for Manning, but that argument loses viability with every day Brady continues to do his thing.
At this point Brady has:
Six rings (four ended this discussion, really)
All the other winning accolades. Brady is 21 regular season wins ahead of 2nd place (Manning), 14 postseason wins ahead of 2nd place (Montana) and the only guy near him in win percentage is Otto Graham, a guy that played when 65 years ago.
3 MVPs / 4 SB MVPs
He'll finish first or second in every single volume stat
He's essentially tied for 3rd in passer rating (with Brees doing it in a dome) and is a split hair away from Manning for 2nd in any/a
The strongest argument against Brady is Belichick. But Brady has the peak, the longevity, the championships, and the moments. For anyone else you have to willingly ignore massive elements of Brady's game.
The most impressive thing about this run is that there's no most impressive thing. 8 straight AFCCG, 13 all together, 9 Superbowl appearances with 6 wins, it's all ridiculous.
At this point Brady's postseason winning percentage is .750. That's..absurd.
Not that you're doing this, but I've seen more than a few segments today and last night basically saying, THERE IS NO MORE ARGUMENT AS TO WHO IS THE GOAT. Which is ridiculous. The argument, as you allude to in your post, has been OVER for awhile now. I guess it's just about needing content, but geeeeeez.
Mike Francesa says that Montana is the GOAT because he's the most impressive QB he's seen in person. Also he didn't throw any INTs or lose in the Super Bowl. I looked up his postseason just to see how the numbers stack up for the playoffs... Joe went 16-7 in the playoffs and threw 21 Ints/45 TDs on 734 Attempts. Brady is 30-10 and has thrown 34/73 on 1589 attempts. Joe's QB rating in the playoffs and SB is better and he was a better runner. Everything else favors Brady. Brady will always have at least 3 lost Super Bowls..so I guess he'll always be second for people with whom that matters.
Otto Graham was the QB of a Cleveland Browns team that reached the championship game of the AAFC each year 1946-1949, winning all of them. When the Browns moved into the NFL in 1950, Graham continued playing as their QB. They went to the NFL championship each year from 1950-1955, winning in 1950, 1954 and 1955. He frequently led the league in passing statistics, and he was voted league MVP in half of the years he played in the NFL.
Stating blankly that there is no argument for the greatest of all time, while ignoring all those who played before 1970, seems hyperbolic.
Some combination of regular season/post-season stats and results should lead most rational observers to conclude Brady as GOAT.
My question to address the Francesa silliness is, What QBs could have comeback from 10 points down in the 4th qtr (2 TD drives) against the Seahawks in SB49, defending SB champ, a historically great defensive team, and a team which gelded poor Peyton a year earlier, and comeback from 28-3 against the Falcons?
I think an honest answer would yield one player.
How many teams in the NFL between 1950 & 1955?
How many playoff games each year?
I think when people talk about the GOAT in the modern context, it's assumed that everyone is discussing the Super Bowl Era. Prior to the Super Bowl era, we literally aren't even talking about the same type of football. Otto Graham threw for 179td's and 134int's in his career. During 2 out of his 3 NFL championship seasons, he threw more picks than touchdows (in 1950, he had 14td's and 20ints, and in '55, he had 11tds and 17ints), in 12 playoff games, he threw 14td's and 17int's and still compiled a 9-3 record. Those Browns teams were carried by arguably, the greatest defensive teams in NFL history (if we're talking about pre-Super Bowl era).
I don't necessarily disagree that guys pre-Super Bowl era shouldn't be excluded from the GOAT conversation, but I don't think Otto Graham is the guy to take down Brady. And if not him, then who really?
There’s no point comparing eras like that, the NFL is a markedly different league from when Brady was a rookie until now, never mind looking back to the 50s. I said this on that passer rating chart, but in some ways the most impressive thing on there is Dan Marino’s name still appears, and that’s just taking into account how much the game has changed from the 80s until now.
All of that said, I don’t think you can credibly make the case for any other QB during the Super Bowl era, even taking into account the difference in styles. Brady won as a game manager when defenses were still allowed to play defense, and he won in the pinball era where you had to throw for a million yards a game.
Edit: or what DOTB said
I heard yet another discussion today about Julien Edelman's potential HOF candidacy, and I don't want to discuss that here, but it brought me back to one of my other arguments for Brady as GOAT. He's basically had tight ends/running backs/slot guys, and basically whoever was left over, played on the outside even if that's not where they would normally play (like David Givens at 5'10 or Deion Branch at 5'9) for any other team.
By season, these are the leading receivers on the Pats that didn't play in the slot or were tight ends/backs:
2001: David Patten: Who was really a slot guy, at 5'10'
2002: David Patten
2003: Deion Branch: Who was 5'9'
2004: David Givens: 6'0'
2005: Deion Branch
2006: Reche Caldwell
2007: Randy Moss
2009: Randy Moss
2010: Deion Branch
2011: Deion Branch
2012: Brandon Lloyd
2013: Aaron Dobson
2014: Brandon Lafell
2015: Brandon Lafell
2016: Chris Hogan
2017: Brandon Cooks
2018: Josh Gordon
I would make the argument that Tom Brady has had a true #1 outside deep threat receiver in exactly 3 of his 17 seasons in the NFL (excluding '08 for obvious reasons). In 2 of those 3 seasons, 2007 and 2017, he won the NFL MVP award. He didn't have a Jerry Rice, or a Marvin Harrison or a Reggie Wayne or combinations of guys like Davante Adams/Jordy Nelson or even Marques Colston/Brandon Cooks/Michael Thomas. Imagine if somewhere along the way, Belichick hit on a wide receiver in the draft that was 6'2' and could run a 4.4 40 on the outside, and Brady had him, along with the tight ends/backs, etc.? Brady's counting stats/rate stats and everything else would be blowing away the competition. Just like he did in 2007.
Imagine what they’d say about Brady if he ever went 1 and done in three straight seasons smack in the middle of his prime with 0/4 TD/INT, leading his team to 3 points each in the first two while throwing for about 200 yards total in the latter two.
Criminally overlooked fact when talking about Montana's postseason career.
It's as if those losses don't matter but Brady's in the Super Bowl do (which weren't even his fault...like, at all.)
Thank you for clarifying. It's just been bothering me to see people write "Greatest of all time" when they mean "greatest I ever saw play," or "greatest of the Super Bowl era."
I don't know. Maybe Brady is the greatest of all time -- one can certainly make a very strong case that he is. But while it's fair to ask this question "How well would Graham do in today's NFL?", it's also fair to ask "How well would Brady do in the 1950's NFL?" How do his stats look if the defenders are allowed to mug his receivers, and the defensive lineman can whack him on the head, and the coaches frequently ask the QB to run for yardage?
Brady has basically played as many games since the start of 2013 that Graham did in his entire career.
I don't know, I think it's pointless even discussing Graham. He's so far removed from modern football it's like looking at baseball players in the 19th century. Brady has over twice as many starts and almost four times as many pass attempts. Like discussing the merits of Kid Nichols in a greatest pitcher ever discussion.
That is a contradiction, no? If you're going to talk about the greatest in the Super Bowl era, don't use the term “GOAT”.
Having lived in south Louisiana for nigh 10 years (before moving back to Maine on January 5), I can tell you every one of the Who Dat’s will scream until they are red in the face Brees is better. They’ll say Brady could have never done what Brees has done with those shitty NO defenses, etc. I’ve tried reasoning, to no avail. Don’t get me wrong on this, the Saints are my other team, and it helps they hardly ever play each other; but the Brady hate game is strong, and it’s like arguing with a brick wall. I just can’t get over the fact that Brees, every single game - especially when it matters - seems to have an epic fuck up that kills their chances. Brady just doesn’t do that. Game, set, match: GOAT
Brees isn't even close to Manning, much less Brady. Forget that nonsense.
The fumble against Philly was pretty big.
Yeah Wade Phillips deserves a ton of credit. Giants D-line aside, nobody has flummoxed Tom Brady more completely, more reliably, than him. The best years of Schottenheimer's Chargers were with him as DC, and his work in Denver of course needs no introduction.
Tom Brady vs Wade Phillips:
2005 week 4: L, 17-41 vs SDG. As comprehensively beat as defensive-heyday Belichick Patriots ever got
2006 AFC DIV: W, 17-14 @ SDG. But that team toyed with Brady all day and we just got the benefit of a miracle heads-up play by Troy Brown
2007 week 6: W, 48-21 @ DAL. But Dallas held a 3rd-quarter lead, first time they'd trailed all year, and his D had a nice fumble return for a TD. One of the better efforts against a legendary team.
2012 week 13: W, 42-14 vs HOU. Wrecked a team that was 11-1 coming in, on MNF. Phillips was head coach rather than DC in Houston.
2013 week 13: W, 34-31 @ HOU. A terrible team in the midst of a 14-game losing streak put the fear of god in Brady, held a lead in every quarter.
2015 week 12: L, 24-30 (OT) @ DEN. Gave up a 21-7 4th quarter lead, tied it as time expired, then TB goes 3-and-out in OT and CJ Anderson had his 48-yard run to put us away.
2015 AFCCG: L, 18-20 @ DEN. You all know how that game went.
2016 week 15: W, 16-3 @ DEN. Trevor Siemian couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but Wade's D held the eventual champions to 16.
2018 SB: W, 13-3 against LAR. His D did pretty pretty well against a well-prepared team that had absolutely dismantled KC.
So he's now 6-3 lifetime against Phillips. One of those rare exceptions to Brady's general dominance of the league, which may or may not mean a whole lot - much like games in Miami.
6-3, no? That 34-31 2013 game was a Patriots win. Also not a great showing by Houston's D, which allowed 34 points and 450 yards of total offense. Close game, but that didn't really have much to do with Phillips.