2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict

[Dogman]

It was the 26, so three kneels put the ball at the 29 which makes it a 47-yarder. It's a kick Nugent should make, but hardly a guarantee given the distance, rain and that he's not very good. A miss puts it at the 37 where the Steelers likely only need a little under 30 yards to get in Boswell's range. It also doesn't burn any clock or obviously give you a chance to win the game right there. You can't coach scared of a RB fumbling.

46 yarder.

Both moves are defensible but I feel removing weather and Bungle risk was the better play. You can coach to remove the discipline problems which lives and breathes on that team. Yes, there would still be time left but the situations would be very different.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

If you are worried about the conditions affecting execution on a particular play, I think there is more risk with something going wrong on the snap - hold - kick play than on a simple running play up the middle. I'm not sure I would have even tried the kick on fourth down unless I could have gained a few yards to make it closer to a 40 yarder than a 50 yarder.

 

[Super Nomario]

I think the odds are greater that Pitt does not get into the end zone with a minute and change left, needing 80 yards of field (assuming FG is made and KO is not returned) no TO, down 4, using a backup, in horrible conditions.

Both are very defensible.

Sure, at that point the Steelers were unlikely to win no matter what Cincinnati did. That doesn't mean that some strategies weren't more optimal than others. The chances of missing the FG were higher than the chances of fumbling.

 

[Rudy's Curve]

46 yarder.

Both moves are defensible but I feel removing weather and Bungle risk was the better play. You can coach to remove the discipline problems which lives and breathes on that team. Yes, there would still be time left but the situations would be very different.

4-2-CIN 21 (2:32) C.Boswell 39 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Berry.
4-10-CIN 12 (0:37) C.Boswell 30 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Berry.
4-7-CIN 17 (10:13) C.Boswell 34 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Berry.
4-3-PIT 17 (5:17) M.Nugent 36 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-C.Harris, Holder-K.Huber.
1-10-CIN 17 (0:18) C.Boswell 35 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Berry.

We're arguing about one yard, but that's three 18-yard differences, one 17 and one 19. And considering XPs are 33 yards with the ball on the 15, I'd say 18 is the real difference. If the FG was a lock or they had an elite kicker, I'd be more inclined to playing it safe (although I'd still run the ball). A miss though has even worse ramifications than the fumble - although the Steelers had all their timeouts, they were on their own 9. Missing puts them on the 37 with only a few fewer seconds than they had.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I wasn't convinced that Burfict's hit was dirty watching the game. Then Deion Sanders and LDT talked and re-enacted the Burfict hit on Brown for almost twenty minutes last night – and I'm even less sure. Deion made a pretty convincing case that VB's move to turn his body away from Brown, hence exposing his shoulder, combined with him going low so as not to target his head (which happened to be lower as he fell to the ground), is what happens when you are going full speed. He was pretty passionate about it and showed how it could happen.

Obviously a guy like Burfict doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. But I think there is a better case to be made in Cincy's defense than is probably being acknowledged.

People just don't want to hear this. They expect these guys to be super humans and have perfect reaction time and form on every play despite having to deal with moving objects that are moving at extremely high speeds.

Now in this particular case I do think Burflict could have done more to avoid contact but the fact is that if Brown had been just a little more upright then his head would have been above the contact with the shoulder and no flag would have been necessary (though I highly suspect the refs would have thrown it anyway).

People want big hits but they don't want any contact to the head. I think the NFL has done a decent job in removing the blatant move of launching your head at an opponent like a missile but borderline plays like this one will unfortunately always be part of the game.

Same with Shaziers hit. If he had his face up and used his facemask instead of his crown then it's just an unfortunate collision but not illegal or dirty. The game will always have a brutal component to it. It needs to or it will become a completely different game.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

I heard a lot of talk about Burfict's intent on the hit on Brown. Does that really matter? Either Brown is defenseless receiver or he isn't, whether or not he catches or has the ball at the time if the hit. If a certain kind of contact is made on certain defender body part to certain receiver body part while the receiver is in defenseless position, doesn't the foul get called? Sort of strict liability thing. Does the near impossibility of reading Burfict's intent from his actions as a play is happening factor into the call under the rules?

That being said, My take is like LTs : this kind of hit has been a penalty all year. It looked to me like Burfict lowered his shoulder after the ball was by Brown, and took two full stides after the bell was by Brown as he lowered the shoulder and made the hit. My football timing sense made me believe Burfict could have pulled up and avoided or made it more clear he was trying to avoid the hit. He didn't, which made the call all the more likely. And read into it what you want, but post play, Burfict is talking to ref and gesturing like he's saying it's not a penalty because "I hit him with my shoulder. ". That makes sense on a helmet to helmet type call, but not a defenseless receiver type call (if I shoulder hit can incur such a penalty there). If you believe that, even Burfict did not initially claim like others have argued that he tried to avoid the hit.

Regardless, a player with Burfict's reputation and course of conduct during the play can't take that risk. It may go against his training and player essence, but he still can't do it. Taking that risk week 4 in the third quarter against Cleveland may be worth the risk of a foul. 30 seconds left in a playoff game is not.

As for Pacman call, should have been offsetting PFs IMO. But Pacman took the bait, and took the risk.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

As for Pacman call, should have been offsetting PFs IMO. But Pacman took the bait, and took the risk.

Yeah, but why wouldn't he? The ref's let this get so out of control, then - with 20 seconds left - they changed the entire way they've officiated up to that point. With all the dirty shit going on for 59 minutes, that shove was worth the flag?

 

[johnmd20]

People just don't want to hear this. They expect these guys to be super humans and have perfect reaction time and form on every play despite having to deal with moving objects that are moving at extremely high speeds.

Now in this particular case I do think Burflict could have done more to avoid contact but the fact is that if Brown had been just a little more upright then his head would have been above the contact with the shoulder and no flag would have been necessary (though I highly suspect the refs would have thrown it anyway).

People want big hits but they don't want any contact to the head. I think the NFL has done a decent job in removing the blatant move of launching your head at an opponent like a missile but borderline plays like this one will unfortunately always be part of the game.

Same with Shaziers hit. If he had his face up and used his facemask instead of his crown then it's just an unfortunate collision but not illegal or dirty. The game will always have a brutal component to it. It needs to or it will become a completely different game.

The ball was by Brown and Burfict took a few more steps before he clocked him. He could have pulled up. He didn't come close to doing so.

 

[Van Everyman]

Also don't forget that the AJ touchdown for the lead could/should have been called back for his flinch before the ball was hiked. That was an obvious false start penalty that somehow didn't get called with the line judge ten yards away from him.

Oh please, this kind of revisionist "a penalty should've been called to negate that play entirely " stuff is one of the more aggravating outcomes of all these debates about NFL officiating.

Should there have been a call? Maybe. But calls are missed all the time – and they always will be. Just like that ridiculous LOL boo hoo response from Baltimore when they lost that game a month or so ago on some minor penalty that should have been called (against Jax? I can't recall), this flinch had nothing to do with the play that resulted.

The excuses people make is almost as bad as the refs themselves. Maybe even worse.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

The ball was by Brown and Burfict took a few more steps before he clocked him. He could have pulled up. He didn't come close to doing so.

Yes that why I said that Burflict could have done more to avoid hitting Brown. We agree on this.

 

[soxhop411]

He is safe

“@AdamSchefter: Issue of Marvin Lewis’ future really isn’t much of an issue. Bengals have no plans to make any HC change at this time, per sources.”

 

[Pandemonium67]

"the call on the two point try after the touchdown to make it 16-15 might have been the worst conceived play call I've ever seen on a two point conversion -- no chance whatsoever."

Not only that, if the backward pass wasn't caught the Steelers could have picked it up and gone all the way for two -- which would have given them the lead back. That would have been the most Bungles outcome of all.

 

[Jnai]

He is safe

“@AdamSchefter: Issue of Marvin Lewis’ future really isn’t much of an issue. Bengals have no plans to make any HC change at this time, per sources.”

It is amazing that he has so much control over ownership and so little over his own players.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I was wondering how Ben hurt his shoulder landing on his back:

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

How is Youkilis a fan of this team when his b-I-l is . . . .

 

[Devizier]

Man, I hate Mike Tomlin so much. He stomps around on the sideline with a stupid scowl on his face all game long as if showing the world his meanie face will get his team to play better. He watches his team participate in an abomination on national TV where his idiot players and coaches were only slightly less disgusting than the ones wearing Bengal uniforms, and then gets up at the podium in the post-game and spews bullshit about this being "AFC North football". I really, really hate that guy.

Give him the opportunity to trade an entire draft's worth of assets for the chance to pick up a Heisman winner, and you've pretty much described Mike Ditka.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I was wondering how Ben hurt his shoulder landing on his back:

Of all the guys to defend, but that looks to me like nothing more than a guy who just made a sack wanting to pop up immediately and strut in front of a massive audience. I'd like to see more extended views.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Yeah, but why wouldn't he? The ref's let this get so out of control, then - with 20 seconds left - they changed the entire way they've officiated up to that point. With all the dirty shit going on for 59 minutes, that shove was worth the flag?

What was the benefit of taking that risk? The best case outcome doesn't seem remotely worth it.

 

[Captaincoop]

Give him the opportunity to trade an entire draft's worth of assets for the chance to pick up a Heisman winner, and you've pretty much described Mike Ditka.

He is the best example ever of mindless, neanderthal, macho football mentality. Even worse than Rex Ryan or his dad.

His team and staff were an abomination last night.

Cannot understand how he gets such a pass from everyone all the time.

 

[awallstein]

I heard a lot of talk about Burfict's intent on the hit on Brown. Does that really matter? Either Brown is defenseless receiver or he isn't...

Intent absolute does not matter (mens rea upon review? Strict liability is actually a really good way to think of it). Until a receiver catches the ball and establishes himself as a runner, he is defenseless, and as such, any hit to his head and neck area (whether initiated with the helmet, forearm, shoulder, or facemask) is a foul. If a defender lowers his helmet and makes any (forcible) contact with a defenseless player, that too is a foul.

People often get too hung up on "helmet to helmet" contact. That's the heartland of the rule, but not its entire jurisdiction...

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

What was the benefit of taking that risk? The best case outcome doesn't seem remotely worth it.

Ever been upset before?

These guys are angry, roid using, hot heads. They've been allowed to bark all game. The only time it changed was with Jones.

 

[Don Buddin's GS]

Tom Archdeacon of The Dayton Daily News analyzes the knuckleheadedness of Burfict and Jones and the total class of tackle Andrew Whitworth who made a point to shake hands with the Steelers after the game:

“I shook hands with them because at the end of the day integrity and character and who you are as a man is more important than who you are as a football player,” he said. “And in the face of a loss you have to man up and walk out there.”

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/sports/pro-sports/archdeacon-bengals-playoff-skid-hits-new-low-in-me/np2gM/?source=ddn_skip_stub

 

[smastroyin]

Yeah, but why wouldn't he? The ref's let this get so out of control, then - with 20 seconds left - they changed the entire way they've officiated up to that point. With all the dirty shit going on for 59 minutes, that shove was worth the flag?

The difference is that there was a ref between Jones and Porter. So in order to confront Porter Jones had to run up the back of one official (82) and nearly elbow another in the face (132). Video is in this link.

You can't bully the officials around even if you really really think they are doing a shitty job.

 

[Kliq]

I see a case with Lewis being fired, and that would be because he just lost his seventh straight playoff game.

However, the argument I keep hearing for him being fired is that he let the game get out of control and his players are reckless thugs. While I agree that Burfict was way, way out of line, I heard on D&C this morning that Lewis should have at least taken Burfict out for a play after that hit. I think that is a ridiculous argument, Lewis is the head coach and has to think of a million things during that time span. He isn't sitting at home watching the replay over and over again, how was he supposed to know how bad the hit was? What I did see was Burfict trying to explain himself to Lewis on the sideline and Lewis didn't even look at him, he just held his hands up like he was saying "Whatever, I don't want to hear your bullshit".

In the same vein, everyone is talking about how the Bengals are a lunatic organization with a bunch of classless players running amok. I know Saturday night was not a good example, but by most sources Pacman Jones had gone through a reformation as a person. When he was with Tennessee, Jones set a new standard for getting in trouble with the law, but somehow Marvin Lewis and the Bengals organization got him on the right path. In addition, the reality is that only a small handful of players were real problems on Saturday night, 95% of the players and coaches conducted themselves in dignity.

Someone who is a Bengals fan can probably speak better to this, but it is my understanding that the ownership in Cincinnati is terrible, and that they throw money around like manhole covers. While his playoff record is garbage, the fact is he has a record 112-92-2 record in a place that it is difficult to win in. In the six years pre-Marvin Lewis Cincinnati had a record of 22-70.

 

[Saints Rest]

Tom Archdeacon of The Dayton Daily News analyzes the knuckleheadedness of Burfict and Jones and the total class of tackle Andrew Whitworth who made a point to shake hands with the Steelers after the game:

“I shook hands with them because at the end of the day integrity and character and who you are as a man is more important than who you are as a football player,” he said. “And in the face of a loss you have to man up and walk out there.”

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/sports/pro-sports/archdeacon-bengals-playoff-skid-hits-new-low-in-me/np2gM/?source=ddn_skip_stub

Somewhere here on Sunday morning, (on Mobile so searching is a pain), I quoted AW in the locker room post-game. The gist was that the win for the team has got to be more important than any petty displays of pride or "tough-guy manliness".

AW could play on my team any day.

 

[Saints Rest]

Of all the guys to defend, but that looks to me like nothing more than a guy who just made a sack wanting to pop up immediately and strut in front of a massive audience. I'd like to see more extended views.

I agree with HH. The injury almost certainly came on the hit. I had something remarkably similar happen to me, thrown to the ground with all my weight landing right on the shoulder, diagnosis: Separated AC joint (aka separated shoulder).

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Ever been upset before?

These guys are angry, roid using, hot heads. They've been allowed to bark all game. The only time it changed was with Jones.

Smastroyin made my point - a big part of the reason Jones got dinged was that he made contact with the field official on his way to bark at Porter.

 

[DourDoerr]

On the Brown hit, if Burfict wanted to avoid an attempted decapitation, he could have twisted his body so his right shoulder was behind his torso - instead of leading with that shoulder as he did. The extra milliseconds and space gained would have spared Brown some - if not most - of the impact. That was a horribly vicious hit, with all that speed, force and mass focussed on another man's head. This is the low-hanging fruit of the NFL's concussion problems and I hope a suspension awaits.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I heard on D&C this morning that Lewis should have at least taken Burfict out for a play after that hit.

For the FG attempt? What's the point?

Here's Burfict in week 17 delivering another massive cheapshot:

 

[Marciano490]

Burfict' the dude who was twisting ankles right? Was that Newton or Palmer or someone else?

 

[trotsplits]

Smastroyin made my point - a big part of the reason Jones got dinged was that he made contact with the field official on his way to bark at Porter.

It's ok for a coach to confront a players on the field as long as he is standing behind an official. Got it.

 

[smastroyin]

That's not the point. The point is that pacman was called for a flag because he hit a fucking ref. All the other crap that happened during the game did not involve a player hitting a ref. Hence, the thing that stands out rather than just saying "oh now with 20 seconds left they try to control the game." Jesus you are dense

 

[johnmd20]

I will submit, I read trot's post, shook my head, and wondered if he knows the meanings of words.

 

[DJnVa]

It's ok for a coach to confront a players on the field as long as he is standing behind an official. Got it.

What?

Pacman bumped an official. That was the penalty. Had he simply yelled back at Porter there would have been no additional flag.

 

[edmunddantes]

In the same vein, everyone is talking about how the Bengals are a lunatic organization with a bunch of classless players running amok. I know Saturday night was not a good example, but by most sources Pacman Jones had gone through a reformation as a person. When he was with Tennessee, Jones set a new standard for getting in trouble with the law, but somehow Marvin Lewis and the Bengals organization got him on the right path. In addition, the reality is that only a small handful of players were real problems on Saturday night, 95% of the players and coaches conducted themselves in dignity.

Well Jones is the same guy that removed Amari Cooper's helmet during a game this year and slammed Cooper's head into it (and tried to slam it more than once), but got off because of the NFL having one of the more bizarre and inconsistent disciplinary processes in the world of sports.

So he's not completely reformed.

 

[DJnVa]

Pacman Jones went on the radio today and said Antonio Brown was faking.

 

[teddykgb]

What?

Pacman bumped an official. That was the penalty. Had he simply yelled back at Porter there would have been no additional flag.

I'm not being sarcastic, is there any video of the ref being bumped? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills but I've never seen it. When the flag is thrown the ref isn't anywhere near him?

 

[Average Reds]

I will submit, I read trot's post, shook my head, and wondered if he knows the meanings of words.

This is a levelheaded way to approach trot's idiocy. I wish I was able to summon it.

One of the things that is frustrating me about the entire site now is the tendency towards deflection. Seemingly every discussion seems to veer off into the category of "BUT WHAT ABOUT (opposing player/coach/political figure/you name it)????!!!!????" No one seems able to address the substance of any comment - we all just want to point to "the other guy" as a way of defending our position.

To all of those who keep pointing to the behavior of Porter, WE GET IT, PORTER'S ACTIONS WERE THE CATALYST FOR JONES GETTING PENALIZED. Yes, Porter should have been penalized. Yes, the Steelers are big cheating meanies. And yes, your arguments are still irrelevant.

The Bengals lost their composure on the field. This loss of composure led directly to the loss of the game. The fact that the Steelers are assholes changes this not a bit.

 

[smastroyin]

I'm not being sarcastic, is there any video of the ref being bumped? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills but I've never seen it. When the flag is thrown the ref isn't anywhere near him?

Check the link I posted. It's in the middle video.

 

[trotsplits]

That's not the point. The point is that pacman was called for a flag because he hit a fucking ref. All the other crap that happened during the game did not involve a player hitting a ref. Hence, the thing that stands out rather than just saying "oh now with 20 seconds left they try to control the game." Jesus you are dense

If the officials had read the rule book and flagged Porter (or maybe just told him to get off the field), then the Pacman "hit" is an offsetting penalty (or maybe never occurs)?

EDIT: Just disregard. Average Reds said it's irrelevant.

 

[DJnVa]

If the officials had read the rule book and flagged Porter (or maybe just told him to get off the field), then the Pacman "hit" is an offsetting penalty (or maybe never occurs)?

EDIT: Just disregard. Average Reds said it's irrelevant.

It is irrelevant. The actions of others doesn't allow Jones to disregard the rules and simply hope they both got caught.

It's like telling the cop that pulled you over for speeding that you thought it was okay because when you drove down the same road yesterday, someone was doing 70 and didn't get pulled.

 

[teddykgb]

Check the link I posted. It's in the middle video.

God, middle video....not middle OF the video. I just unnecessarily watched multiple minutes of Simms and Nantz until i thought to scroll down the page.

There was definitely more contact than I thought but I don't like the way the ref seems so indignant as he's throwing a flag there. I think cooler heads could have prevailed and would like to see the ref either not throw or rule offsetting after a discussion. But as I said there is some real contact there and Jones has to live with the consequences of his actions.

 

[trotsplits]

It is irrelevant. The actions of others doesn't allow Jones to disregard the rules and simply hope they both got caught.

It's like telling the cop that pulled you over for speeding that you thought it was okay because when you drove down the same road yesterday, someone was doing 70 and didn't get pulled.

Or the officials could have correctly called a penalty on Porter for entering the field of play. That seems relevant. The outcome makes complaining about it irrelevant, I suppose.

 

[DJnVa]

Or the officials could have correctly called a penalty on Porter for entering the field of play. That seems relevant. The outcome makes complaining about it irrelevant, I suppose.

Which part of "WE ALL GET THAT" are you misunderstanding?

What we are saying is that just because the official didn't flag Porter does not excuse Jones bumping an official which will be called every single time.

 

[trotsplits]

...will be called every single time.

Unless it isn't. Because it's not called every single time. And shouldn't have been called in a game like this.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Which part of "WE ALL GET THAT" are you misunderstanding?

What we are saying is that just because the official didn't flag Porter does not excuse Jones bumping an official which will be called every single time.

But what trot is saying is that IF the refs threw a flag on Porter than Pacman never would have bumped the official. Because Trot can either see the future or read Pacmans mind. Either way he's wasting his talents here. Go play powerball bro.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

For a myriad of reasons the correct call on the Pacman play are offsetting penalties (Jones and Porter), and the officials took plenty of time after throwing the flag after the contact to discuss and come up with this. The fact that they did not is just further evidence of the state of officiating in the NFL.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

It is irrelevant. The actions of others doesn't allow Jones to disregard the rules and simply hope they both got caught.

It's like telling the cop that pulled you over for speeding that you thought it was okay because when you drove down the same road yesterday, someone was doing 70 and didn't get pulled.

It's even more than that - bumping the ref is a different (and worse) category of offense, so it's like telling the cop that pulled you over for running a red light that he didn't catch the guy in front of you for speeding.

 

[DJnVa]

Unless it isn't. Because it's not called every single time. And shouldn't have been called in a game like this.

Bumping the official should be allowed because it was a big game? Is that your point?

 

[trotsplits]

But what trot is saying is that IF the refs threw a flag on Porter than Pacman never would have bumped the official. Because Trot can either see the future or read Pacmans mind. Either way he's wasting his talents here. Go play powerball bro.

Flagging Porter, at minimum, renders Pacman's outburst irrelevant.