2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict
- Thread starter Rudy's Curve
- Start date
No.
And by now if you haven't understood this, I don't know what to tell you.
NO MATTER WHAT PORTER DID OR DIDN'T DO, JONES SHOULD NOT HAVE RELIED ON THE OFFICIALS TO THROW A FLAG AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD HE HAVE BUMPED AN OFFICIAL.
The official screwing up does NOT give Jones license to get away with one. That doesn't exist anywhere in sports, work, life, child-rearing, etc.
I was just kidding about you being able to read minds or see the future dude. You really can't.
Pacman saw a coach on the field from the other team jawing at his teammates near the end of a chippy game. He sprints toward the coach and runs into (or "HITS") the ref on the way. If the Ref's are calling the game correctly, Porter gets a flag whether Pacman does or doesn't.
Listen, I get it. Pacman was guilty of getting a flag. Porter gets a gameball from his team for not getting one. Go Stillers.
Granted, Pittsburgh coaches have no confronting Bengals players within the confines of their own sidelines (Munchak says hello).
Listen, I get it. Pacman was guilty of getting a flag. Porter gets a gameball from his team for not getting one. Go Stillers.
Granted, Pittsburgh coaches have no confronting Bengals players within the confines of their own sidelines (Munchak says hello).
Adam Jones goes as far as to claim that Antontio Brown was winking at him.
What's next, coquettish fan-work?
What's next, coquettish fan-work?
What drives me nuts about this is that it's a good example of how poorly coached the Bengals are - all of the chippy shit from the Steelers is intentional - because they know the Bengals will react. Its the sort of thing good teams know to do, and its part of the reason the Bengals keep going 1-and-done in the playoffs. (Brown was probably winking because he thought Jones was He-Man or something. He was clearly concussed)
The refs should definitely do more about the steelers coaches being on the field and such - and Munchak should have been expelled, but the Bengals need to stop being so easy to goad.
Schefter just tweeted this:
As much as some might question it, Steelers WR Antonio Brown is in the concussion protocol, per source.
As much as some might question it, Steelers WR Antonio Brown is in the concussion protocol, per source.
If Sitting Bull's warriors had not attacked, General Custer's fatal strategic blunder at the Little Bighorn would have been rendered irrelevant.
What's your point?
Jones is part of the problem.
I wonder how it feels playing with a couple of guys who, however talented, are a menace to light fire to everything you have been busting your balls for since April.
This is beyond ridiculous. Beyond all odds, they may have ducked the big season destroying bullet, Dalton's injury. At least for this game McCarron was enough.
Talent uber alles? Uh, no.
I wonder how it feels playing with a couple of guys who, however talented, are a menace to light fire to everything you have been busting your balls for since April.
This is beyond ridiculous. Beyond all odds, they may have ducked the big season destroying bullet, Dalton's injury. At least for this game McCarron was enough.
Talent uber alles? Uh, no.
Maybe/maybe not. I'm not intimately familiar with the NFL rules around penalty assessment, but there may not be an offset here due to live ball fouls and dead ball fouls.
By rule - Porter should have been flagged with Unsportsmanlike Conduct - the same as Pacman -those two would have offset. The Burfict penalty would have still stood though.
Both the Porter foul, if it had been called, and the Jones foul were dead ball fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct, so they should have offset. See Rule 14, Section 4, Article 9 of the NFL Rulebook.
A Steeler was lying on the ground, possibly killed by a Bengal.
A Bengal takes this opportunity to get offended by (pick anything).
A Bengal costs his team 15 crucial yards instead of just being a man, walking away, taking a knee, and praying that Brown isn't paralyzed.
Put it another way - try to imagine a Belichick Patriot doing what Jones did, and even if you can...try to imagine how a team mate feels watching Jones "blow off some steam" and cost his team 15 yards. There is absolutely nothing...NOTHING that defends Jones' actions. Not a single thing.
A Bengal takes this opportunity to get offended by (pick anything).
A Bengal costs his team 15 crucial yards instead of just being a man, walking away, taking a knee, and praying that Brown isn't paralyzed.
Put it another way - try to imagine a Belichick Patriot doing what Jones did, and even if you can...try to imagine how a team mate feels watching Jones "blow off some steam" and cost his team 15 yards. There is absolutely nothing...NOTHING that defends Jones' actions. Not a single thing.
Honest question: Do you really think he was "bullying the officials", or do you think he was simply trying to get at Porter and brushed the official on the way by.
99% of the time, I'm for a no-tolerance rule on touching officials. To end a playoff game because one guy got brushed and another guy "nearly" got touched doesn't feel right to me.
Is a coach on the field against the rules? I don't see how it can be because it happens all the time.
So, Porter is guilty of what, exactly? Being an ass? (well, this is pretty much a given, but beside the point).
I don't think anyone other than the players and officials knows what, exactly, was being said. I don't doubt that Porter was taunting some of the Bengals players, but I also don't know for sure that he did, and I don't doubt that the Bengals players were talking right back. I'm sure a lot of profanity was being used on both sides. This, alone, is enough for offsetting penalties, but given the game itself and what had just occurred, the ref wisely chose to not flag either side. His only other option was to flag both, but this would have been even more pointless. Instead, he wisely kept the flag in his pocket and tried to get between the parties.
Then, here comes dumb ass Jones, who clearly bumps an official to get at Porter. This has to be flagged every time, regardless of intent. The league cannot allow padded players who work out for a living to get physical with unpadded accountants who ref games on the weekends (perhaps they shouldn't use this model for refs, but that's another issue altogether).
Other than not flagging Shazier, the refs did a solid job given the situation.
So, Porter is guilty of what, exactly? Being an ass? (well, this is pretty much a given, but beside the point).
I don't think anyone other than the players and officials knows what, exactly, was being said. I don't doubt that Porter was taunting some of the Bengals players, but I also don't know for sure that he did, and I don't doubt that the Bengals players were talking right back. I'm sure a lot of profanity was being used on both sides. This, alone, is enough for offsetting penalties, but given the game itself and what had just occurred, the ref wisely chose to not flag either side. His only other option was to flag both, but this would have been even more pointless. Instead, he wisely kept the flag in his pocket and tried to get between the parties.
Then, here comes dumb ass Jones, who clearly bumps an official to get at Porter. This has to be flagged every time, regardless of intent. The league cannot allow padded players who work out for a living to get physical with unpadded accountants who ref games on the weekends (perhaps they shouldn't use this model for refs, but that's another issue altogether).
Other than not flagging Shazier, the refs did a solid job given the situation.
As someone just reading through this, it sounds like two sides are talking past each other while actually agreeing (or at least not disagreeing):
1. Jones and the Bengals are goddamned morons. They blew it and their actions are inexcusable. Jones' stupidity effectively made a tough FG into a chipshot and handed the game to the Steelers.
2. The refs also blew it by allowing Joey Porter to be on the field inciting the Bengals. Coaches shouldn't be allowed on the field, especially in that capacity, and it should have drawn a flag. This non-call effectively made a tough FG into a chipshot and handed the game to the Steelers.
The two are in no way mutually exclusive. Jones need to be smarter and the refs need to be smarter.
On a side note, I thought the broadcast was called heavily one way. I didn't hear a peep out of Simms or Nantz about Shazier taunting the crowd after knocking out Bernard with an uncalled illegal hit. Frankly, I thought both teams challenged how scummy you could be on a football field and I thought it was pretty ridiculous that only one of them seemed to get called out on it.
I won't answer for him, but while Jones may have not been "bullying the officials," he did more than "brush" one. His actions should be flagged 100% of the time.
I said this, somewhere, last night, but ... when a scrum starts, officials often get jostled, sometimes worse than what Jones did. The problem here was the timing.
If you watch the full replay of the situation, there are Bengals players excited, running off the field and pointing toward the Pittsburgh side of the line -- suggesting that, indeed, they heard officials about to call a penalty on the Steelers, presumably on Porter. THEN Jones makes his move and jostles the refs, after the intial storm had calmed down. In other words, he flare-up came during a lull and that's what made it stick out.
And those expressing their righteous indignation over Jones doing this while Brown was on the ground should be just as upset at Shazier doing the stagger-man dance on the sidelines after his crown-helmet hit on Bernard
That game was such a disgraceful shit-show; all involved forfeited their claim to a “just” outcome.
He lunged over an official and tried to grab Porter, and got pulled away after literally half a second. At worst its incidental contact. And, yes, I think that should normally be a penalty. But not to decide a playoff game. Fine the guy and suspend him for the next game, but I don't agree that should decide a game.
The refs can't pick the times when they get hit(or brushed) and they can't choose not to call it because it's a crucial period in the game.
As someone stated above, the second the refs decide to not call something like that because it's a critical spot, it puts them at risk from very strong, very fast men in pads.
This is so true and it extended to ESPN and just about everyone else's take on this game. The Bengals are seen as out of control a'holes while the Steelers are tough or warriors. Totally absurd storyline.
And it's amazing to me how the Pats are hated and reviled by all when they never do crap like this. The whole league is difficult to swallow.
The problem is, if they are going to call automatic penalties (and I agree they should), then call ALL automatic penalties -- particularly in a game called as tightly early on as this one. There was plenty of time after the flag was dropped on Jones to call a matching penalty on Porter. It wasn't done, for whatever reason
I just want to chime in to say that this is giving the Steelers too much credit. The chippy shit may be intentional, and the Steelers may be a good team, but the idea that they do the chippy shit because they are a good team is too much.
Steelers can be assholes and will pay for their assholedom next weekend.
Clean hit on Ben. Pure Karma.
I prefer forcing players to demonstrate emotional intelligence over forcing officials to determine which kinds of physical contact towards them should be flagged and which shouldn't, and when.
Have poise on the field and it's not an issue.
If we're looking for karma, shouldn't clean hits that take out Talib, Ward, and Miller happen first?
Head coaches can go on the field in certain situations, including attending to an injured player. Assistant coaches being on the field might not always be penalized, but there is a specific rule about them not being allowed to become part of an altercation.
There are two issues here: fairness and entertainment. I might think it's fair that Jones was flagged and cost the Bengals the game, but on the other hand football is fundamentally entertainment and, as a fan, it sucks to see the game essentially decided by a penalty that had zero on-the-field impact. I wouldn't go so far as to say the ref shouldn't have thrown the flag - it's not his job to keep the game entertaining - but it still sucks that he did.
Not to be an ass, but can anyone point to the specific rule that prohibits coaches from being on the field during timeouts? I have seen this happen many, many times while watching NFL games.
Fine. I just thought it a bit much that Tomlin lauded typical AFC North football after the game, and the non-flag on the Shazier hit really bothers me.
As close as I've found, thus far, to why Porter could/should have been penalized
Article I, section 8: Non-player personnel of a club (e.g., management personnel, coaches, trainers, equipment men) are prohibited from making unnecessary physical contact with or directing abusive, threatening, or insulting language or gestures at opponents, game officials, or representatives of the League. The penalty: 15 yards.
There is latitude involved, such as when coaches go on field to keep their players on the sidelines. But also remember, there's a difference here between head coaches and assistants
It's probably because people are slamming the Bengals for lacking composure when the Steelers did a bunch of things that lacked composure as well? And the team that won wasn't necessarily more composed, they just got some great calls in their favor?
I get that the Burfict hit was brutal. But I do not see how it was any more violent than Shazier's hit on Bernard and, from my perspective, the Bernard hit was very avoidable. Bernard was stopped, turning around to the defense, and Shazier teed off on his chin with his helmet. This unnecessarily violent hit, an uncalled penalty by rule, caused a really important turnover.
Then, as Bernard was lying concussed on the ground, Shazier danced and taunted the crowd. What incredible composure and sportsmanship! The team with greater character truly won!
RE: Jones and Porter, people wonder why Jones would fight with Porter. How stupid is he!? No Patriots player would be dumb enough to retaliate there! Well, no Patriots defensive assistant coach would be out on the field if Edelman was concussed. Because there's no reason for him to be. Joey Porter is also the same guy who threatened to kill former Bengals OT Levi Jones. He deserves the benefit of the doubt... why?
And for all of the people calling Burfict and Jones thugs, please remember that when BB is lauded for taking a chance on guys like Dillon and Moss and Aaron Hernandez. I don't think either guy has gotten into trouble since they've been with the Bengals and they've made significant attempts to be different people.
There are thousands of posts on Sosh about how unfair the NFL's treatment of Brady is, and there's a whole thread comparing the different treatment of Peyton Manning's HGH issues. Why is it "incorrect" and "stupid" (or whatever adjective you prefer) to look at this game and say that the Steelers received some very generous, momentum swinging calls while the Bengals didn't?
Lastly, people calling for Lewis' job... I mean, the dude had his AJ McCarron-led team fight tooth and nail with the "most dangerous team" in the AFC. You want to question the Hill fumble because the play failed? The run also went 9 yards. If the ball doesn't pop out, the game is over.
Sure, maybe Hill's fumble problems should have been taken into account, but their other RB was getting his jaw wired in the 4th quarter, so...
There are two different rules in question here with Joey Porter's actions. http://uaasnfl.blob.core.windows.net/live/1807/2015_nfl_rule_book_final.pdf
Rule 13 Section 1 Article 2 says that Assistant Coaches should not enter the field. However, there is no specific penalty prescribed. That makes it a violation, which in and of itself does not offset Jones' foul (Rule 3 Section 14 Article 4).
Rule 13 Section 1 Article 8 prohibits non-player personnel from directing abusive/threatening/insulting language at opponents. That appears to be what Joey Porter was doing while he was on the field, but nothing about this rule says that he has to be on the field to be guilty of that.
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Way out on the field, in the midst of everyone? Or near the sideline as the team huddles around them?
Anyone should google this incident if they're ever bored. It's one of life's truly bad beats that Porter didn't die when he was shot a few years ago - he's an utterly despicable human being.
In short, whether Porter was on the field is irrelevant to the offsetting penalties discussion. He shouldn't have been there, by the rules, but there's no specific penalty for that - the fine that he will reportedly be issued is likely the right penalty for simply being on the field.
Thank you for this.
I have no doubt that Porter could have, and perhaps should have, been flagged for what he said while on the field, but the same is true of the Bengals players, too. There is also a similar rule for players, right? The point is that both sides could have been flagged for the talking that was occurring.
And I also want to reiterate that I am in no way defending Porter. He's an ass (fun fact: I was actually his college teammate for two years, and he is as stupid as he seems, if not more so); I would have been fined with him being flagged, but the most egregious action that occurred and the one that absolutely had to be flagged, and was, was Jones'.
I don't think anyone "defending" the Bengals is arguing that they should not have been penalized. The issue is that both teams were up to no good and only one was penalized.