Nothing is dirtier than the Brown hit. And it is bungled because they had the ball with less than 2 minutes left with a lead and somehow turned that into 30 yards of personal fouls and a loss. They showed less than no composure or game awareness.
2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict
- Thread starter Rudy's Curve
- Start date
Porter is on the field because they were trying to reattach Brown's head to his body and they needed somebody strong.
The Burfict hit on Brown was the dirtiest of all. The Shazier hit was bad because he launched with the crown, but it's at least mitigated by the fact that he's trying to tackle a shifty, short guy in space who has already made a catch and is trying to get upfield. If he hits Bernard with his shoulder the way Burfict hit Brown, it's a fully legal play (although still brutal). Whereas there is no circumstance under which the Burfict hit is ever legal. He had time to line him up and he deliberately went in high with his pads.
I truly didn't think it was possible for a playoff team to repeatedly screw up that badly. I literally sat there in awe of the level of ineptitude on display for the entire world to see in the biggest game of many of those players' lives.
Did that really just happen?
I mean, it's beyond words.
Did that really just happen?
I mean, it's beyond words.
As a longtime PIT fan, this CIN team reminds me of the Bill Cowher Steeler teams that went 1-4 in home AFCCs before finally breaking through in the SB XL season. They had so much talent but they were deep inside their own head with the accumulating pressure of home playoff losses and when they would start to unspool Cowher had absolutely no ability to get them refocused. They need a fresh start at HC because they have more good players at more positions than anybody in the AFC. Time for Coughlin??
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Every single word you write here is incorrect, including "and" and "the."
Notwithstanding anything else that happened, the Bengals had the ball and the game if they simply take a knee three times. They chose not to and it bit them in the ass. Then they compounded their idiocy by losing their composure, committing one horrendous foul and one horrendously stupid foul to seal their fate.
All the bad officiating in the world can't wipe the Bengal's stink off this one.
(Edit: one of the things) I learned from last night:
The best way to apply a dirty hit is to aim for the heads of opposing running backs, during plays.
The NFL is going to have to stop players jacking up a runner head to head like that.
The best way to apply a dirty hit is to aim for the heads of opposing running backs, during plays.
The NFL is going to have to stop players jacking up a runner head to head like that.
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Pittsburgh had three timeouts; the Bengals couldn't have kneeled the game out.
They would have forced the Steelers to burn all of their timeouts and then kicked a field goal.
The ball (and the game) was in the Bengals' hands and they gave it away.
Mike Brown is too cheap to pay for Tom Coughlin though that is exactly what he needs.
All true. Yet, it is also true that with the game on the line, the Burfict and Jones committed no-doubt personal fouls, and Hill fumbled. So while there was no reason for Porter to be on the field, Jones still punched him and while Shazier's hit was both more reckless and dangerous, and got no flag, Burfict's hit was also illegal and should have been penalized. And Hill's fumble was...Hil's fumble.
Verdict: Bungled.
IMO, Lewis should be gone, as well as both Burfict and Jones. The latter two have long-earned their reputations as knuckleheads with discipline problems. Both can go a while with fucking up, but both continually lose their cool in big spots and both cost their team a playoff win.
Lewis, meanwhile, enables the bungling. He chooses to keep, and play, these guys. Burfict, in particular, was an issue on the sideline. If Lewis isn't going to bench him, and instead is going to encourage him to do what he does, then Lewis is at fault.
@KYouk_2036 .@Bengals I've never been more embarrassed to be a Bengals fan in a history of embarrassing seasons. This one takes the cake!!! #discipline
Burfict's hit on Brown was late, lined up, and right at the head. The ball was clearly not going to be caught. It was one of the dirtiest hits you will see in today's NFL.
Who would fucking do that? Take 3 knees, attempt a 45 yard fg, and give it back to Pitt with a chance to win.
Or
Get a first down and end the game.
Yeah, I get all of the complaining about the unsportsmanlike flag, but
1) This wasn't a post-TD or 4th down stop or whatever celebration that turned into a trash talk scuffle. It was the Bengals players being pissed that a completely dirty hit was actually called. So the players are out there trash talking the refs, the Steelers, and a guy who may or may not be dead while said guy is lying motionless on the ground and the concussion protocol is being followed. So perhaps the refs were more keyed up to bad behavior.
2) I think it is really hard to tell if Porter was out there with the medical staff out of concern for Brown or just out there to trash talk, and we can all agree that he shouldn't be engaging any Bengals. That said just like every other league, it is often more dangerous to retaliate, especially when your retaliation is also escalation, and especially when you have so much to lose. So all the talk about Joey Porter shouldn't have even been on the field really don't excuse Pacman running up to him to shove him away WITH THE REFS STANDING RIGHT FUCKING THERE and trying to bully through a ref to do it.
3) I'm of two minds on whether the refs should have been more conservative. First, I think sure, this is an elimination game so you don't want to decide it with flags. So, only throw it if you have no other choice. On the other hand, rules are rules and letting them be fluid just because of the importance of the game undermines their validity. But then again, the refs allowed the game to get out of hand in the first place. What it seems to me happened is that the refs were trying to get Porter away from the Bengals players and de-escalate the situation then Pacman forced their hands with his inability to keep cool.
4) All the whining about Porter misses the point that the first flag was completely legit, a total cheap shot, completely unnecessary, and unbelievably and unforgivably stupid given the context. Yay you get to express your hatred for the Steelers with a cheap shot. That's the best outcome. Literally, there was nothing else the hit could accomplish. The downside? A penalty that is called almost every single time which happens to put your opponent in FG range and allows them to use their remaining time to get closer instead of in complete desperation. When you care more about laying a guy out than winning the game, you are destined to be a loser.
1) This wasn't a post-TD or 4th down stop or whatever celebration that turned into a trash talk scuffle. It was the Bengals players being pissed that a completely dirty hit was actually called. So the players are out there trash talking the refs, the Steelers, and a guy who may or may not be dead while said guy is lying motionless on the ground and the concussion protocol is being followed. So perhaps the refs were more keyed up to bad behavior.
2) I think it is really hard to tell if Porter was out there with the medical staff out of concern for Brown or just out there to trash talk, and we can all agree that he shouldn't be engaging any Bengals. That said just like every other league, it is often more dangerous to retaliate, especially when your retaliation is also escalation, and especially when you have so much to lose. So all the talk about Joey Porter shouldn't have even been on the field really don't excuse Pacman running up to him to shove him away WITH THE REFS STANDING RIGHT FUCKING THERE and trying to bully through a ref to do it.
3) I'm of two minds on whether the refs should have been more conservative. First, I think sure, this is an elimination game so you don't want to decide it with flags. So, only throw it if you have no other choice. On the other hand, rules are rules and letting them be fluid just because of the importance of the game undermines their validity. But then again, the refs allowed the game to get out of hand in the first place. What it seems to me happened is that the refs were trying to get Porter away from the Bengals players and de-escalate the situation then Pacman forced their hands with his inability to keep cool.
4) All the whining about Porter misses the point that the first flag was completely legit, a total cheap shot, completely unnecessary, and unbelievably and unforgivably stupid given the context. Yay you get to express your hatred for the Steelers with a cheap shot. That's the best outcome. Literally, there was nothing else the hit could accomplish. The downside? A penalty that is called almost every single time which happens to put your opponent in FG range and allows them to use their remaining time to get closer instead of in complete desperation. When you care more about laying a guy out than winning the game, you are destined to be a loser.
There's another choice. Take 3 knees and then punt to around the 10 or less. No scenario is without risk but Pittsburgh would have had no time outs and a LONG field to go. And not much time.
I don't blame Youks and I really feel for Cinci fans. Whether it's fair or not, the only thing that would begin to mollify me would be the firing of Lewis. That complete breakdown of discipline has to fall on the HC.
PS: As much as PacMan deserved a flag there, I hate that one was called and virtually handed the game to the Steelers.
Your last sentence nails it. I made the same remark during / after the week 14 matchup. The Bengals just wanted to be seen as the tougher team results be damned
The notion of Tom Coughlin coming in to be the new sheriff in town really feels like a PR dream for the NFL to get past this mess. I did a quick Google search just now and didn't see any other articles throwing this idea out there, but I have to believe Goodell is making some calls.
I guess another option is Hue Jackson, already in place in Cincinnati, and widely regarded as a top candidate for an opening somewhere. Plus the lack of control of last night had more to do with the defense than the offense. But Coughlin would be an easy sell.
Yeah.
With guys like Burfict, this isn't a football game that can be violent. This is a violent confrontation with a heavy dose of football. Sons of Lyle Alzado.
Which is too bad for a bunch of reasons including the fact that Burfict would be an eye popping out of this world player if he dialed it down a couple of clicks. But he obviously can't.
With guys like Burfict, this isn't a football game that can be violent. This is a violent confrontation with a heavy dose of football. Sons of Lyle Alzado.
Which is too bad for a bunch of reasons including the fact that Burfict would be an eye popping out of this world player if he dialed it down a couple of clicks. But he obviously can't.
In normal conditions I would absolutely agree. In last night's conditions, I'd take three knees and if the field goal was too risky, I'd pin them back with no timeouts.
If you decide to go for the first down and lose the ball in those circumstances you deserve your fate. Hold on to the fucking ball.
Same goes for having a team that is so undisciplined that they can't avoid the mind-numbingly dumb fouls at the end of the game. Hold on to your composure.
The Bengals did not lose that game because of the refs. They lost because they are idiots.
I like Tom Coughlin, but have we forgotten that just 3 weeks ago he enabled close to criminal on-field behavior by OBJ for about 3/4 of the game, because he placed winning over doing the right thing. They need the Tom Coughlin of a decade ago, not the Coughlin of today. It would be a PR move, nothing more.
There seems to have been discipline/character issues with this team on and off the field for most of Marvin Lewis' tenure in Cincinnati. That may speak more to the organization as a whole rather than Lewis as a coach, but last night should be the last we see of Lewis on the Bengals sideline. That team, HIS team, showed a complete lack of self control and as result handed the Steelers a win while losing in the first round of the playoffs all seven times that they've appeared under Lewis.
Burfict's bad, ugly hit cost them the game ... but he was also the only reason they were in the game to begin with. His sack of Roethlisberger was the single biggest play in the Bengals comeback, putting Cincy in great field position for their first drive and putting Landry Jones in the game. Then he had the pick that should have won them the game. Before the final Pittsburgh drive, he was the MVP of the game. What do you do with a guy like that?
As for Lewis: Bungles used to mean something different. Like, "being one of the worst teams in the league and not making the playoffs" different. This is their fifth straight one-and-done, which has to be incredibly frustrating ... but it's better than not making the playoffs 13 years in a row, which was the case before Lewis got there.
This probably sounds stupid after the loss last night but, ultimately, I see a franchise heading in the right direction. 12-4 is tied for the best record in franchise history, this was their best point differential in franchise history, Dalton had his best year this year
As for Lewis: Bungles used to mean something different. Like, "being one of the worst teams in the league and not making the playoffs" different. This is their fifth straight one-and-done, which has to be incredibly frustrating ... but it's better than not making the playoffs 13 years in a row, which was the case before Lewis got there.
This probably sounds stupid after the loss last night but, ultimately, I see a franchise heading in the right direction. 12-4 is tied for the best record in franchise history, this was their best point differential in franchise history, Dalton had his best year this year
I wasn't convinced that Burfict's hit was dirty watching the game. Then Deion Sanders and LDT talked and re-enacted the Burfict hit on Brown for almost twenty minutes last night – and I'm even less sure. Deion made a pretty convincing case that VB's move to turn his body away from Brown, hence exposing his shoulder, combined with him going low so as not to target his head (which happened to be lower as he fell to the ground), is what happens when you are going full speed. He was pretty passionate about it and showed how it could happen.
Obviously a guy like Burfict doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. But I think there is a better case to be made in Cincy's defense than is probably being acknowledged.
Obviously a guy like Burfict doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. But I think there is a better case to be made in Cincy's defense than is probably being acknowledged.
I just watched both AJ Green and the Bengals OT, Andrew Whiteorth, interviewed post game.
AJ: "we gave it away...nothing they did...we gave them extra yards, an extra 30 yards"
AW: "at all times, our team, as a unit, everyone, has gotta understand the discipline of winning the football game and what's more important than anything else. It's always gotta be number one. And when you get those priorities out of control, then some things happen."
Sounds to me like a team that might have a hard time finding harmony between the O and the D.
AJ: "we gave it away...nothing they did...we gave them extra yards, an extra 30 yards"
AW: "at all times, our team, as a unit, everyone, has gotta understand the discipline of winning the football game and what's more important than anything else. It's always gotta be number one. And when you get those priorities out of control, then some things happen."
Sounds to me like a team that might have a hard time finding harmony between the O and the D.
Also don't forget that the AJ touchdown for the lead could/should have been called back for his flinch before the ball was hiked. That was an obvious false start penalty that somehow didn't get called with the line judge ten yards away from him.
I've lived in Cincinnati for the past fifteen years and spent my evening with (mostly) Bengals fan. I've never seen anything quite like I saw last night -- just excruciating for Bengal fans.
For about the fourth year in a row the game ended and I immediately thought Marvin's just got to go -- can't get this team over the hump and the lack of discipline is just mind boggling. Hue Jackson is frequently mentioned as a candidate to takeover, but I gotta say the call on the two point try after the touchdown to make it 16-15 might have been the worst conceived play call I've ever seen on a two point conversion -- no chance whatsoever. Is this really the guy that should be the Bengals head coach. I think they need housecleaning and a fresh start.
For about the fourth year in a row the game ended and I immediately thought Marvin's just got to go -- can't get this team over the hump and the lack of discipline is just mind boggling. Hue Jackson is frequently mentioned as a candidate to takeover, but I gotta say the call on the two point try after the touchdown to make it 16-15 might have been the worst conceived play call I've ever seen on a two point conversion -- no chance whatsoever. Is this really the guy that should be the Bengals head coach. I think they need housecleaning and a fresh start.
Exactly right. Any talk of kneeling in that situation is 20/20 hindsight. Even a successful FG does not end the game, and a miss practically hands the game away on a silver platter.
Edit to add: And kneel-punt is also a poor choice when the opponent only needs a FG with that amount of time remaining. Obviously, turning the ball over while playing for a first down was a terrible outcome, but it was still a low-probability event at the outset.
Running with the right move. Going for the extra yard in lieu of ball security was not the right move. Hill is off the hook a bit because of the personal fouls, but that was a historically bad fumble.
I was screaming for Cincy to take a knee as AJ was about to hand the ball off because of the conditions. Pitt got into the end zone once all game and with a backup playing until that point, I would have taken my chances with burning Pitt's TO and kicking the 45 yard FG. Remove as much Bungle play and discipline risk as possible.
Under normal conditions, I would have absolutely gone for the first down.
Under normal conditions, I would have absolutely gone for the first down.
Go back and look at the post I made that KFP responded to and that kicked off this line.
My point was that the loss is not on the refs, it's on the Bengals for their idiocy and general lack of discipline.
I disagree with the sweeping nature of your statement based on the specific circumstances of that game, but it wasn't the point in any case.
Edit: As it relates to your post, Dogman has it.
I saw that Deion dissertation too and he must have said "he could have cleaned him up" or "he didn't clean him up" half a dozen times. Made me think a hall of fame DB that is on NFLN all the time, and is well respected, could be using a phrase that sounded less thug-like than "clean him up". Or maybe that's an OK phrase? Deion did take the DB side, but I think he's wrong. Burfict had the time to not hit Brown. The ball was well gone and even though it might have been just a second or two, that's enough time for players used to the high speed game the NFL is to pull up and keep the game out of the hands of the refs.
Kneeling also turns a 45-yarder into a 48, doesn't take any time off the clock and puts the ball at the 38 if you miss, which was hardly an impossibility in the rain with a below-average kicker. Running the ball was absolutely the right move.
Umm, so does running the ball? You can't be scared of the worst-case scenario when the positives well outweigh the negatives. It sucks that he fumbled, but you have to run the ball. If he doesn't fumble the game has a decent chance of being over since he got six yards on first down, and even if it isn't you're making it a closer FG and burning multiple seconds each play.
I agree. I said running was the right move. But your analysis literally ignored the timeouts.
Cincy started with the ball at the 25, making 3 kneel downs a 45 yarder. Absolutely not a given FG but one and professional kicker makes roughly 85% of the time. I still take my chances this way where missing means Pitt has no TO and 45 yards of field to be in a position to win.
Dude, running the ball implies them using timeouts. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.
You can tell me I'm handsome.
You're stating with a clarity of declaration that it was "absolutely the right move". But that isn't the case. Because it failed.
It is absolutely defensible to run the ball there. I feel it is absolutely defensible to kneel 3 times and try the kick.
One removes a ton of weather and Bungle related risk and that is the option I would have gone.
One removes a ton of weather and Bungle related risk and that is the option I would have gone.
And a professional running back doesn't fumble 98% of the time. Cincy was absolutely playing the odds here.
I think the odds are greater that Pitt does not get into the end zone with a minute and change left, needing 80 yards of field (assuming FG is made and KO is not returned) no TO, down 4, using a backup, in horrible conditions.
Both are very defensible.
Man, I hate Mike Tomlin so much. He stomps around on the sideline with a stupid scowl on his face all game long as if showing the world his meanie face will get his team to play better. He watches his team participate in an abomination on national TV where his idiot players and coaches were only slightly less disgusting than the ones wearing Bengal uniforms, and then gets up at the podium in the post-game and spews bullshit about this being "AFC North football". I really, really hate that guy.
But since this is a Bengals thread, Marvin Lewis absolutely has to go. He was unable to get his players to control their emotions on that last drive, where pretty much the only way they were going to lose was by being stupid and giving the Steelers penalty yardage. Unforgivable and the Bengals absolutely deserve this type of shit if they continue to keep him around.
But since this is a Bengals thread, Marvin Lewis absolutely has to go. He was unable to get his players to control their emotions on that last drive, where pretty much the only way they were going to lose was by being stupid and giving the Steelers penalty yardage. Unforgivable and the Bengals absolutely deserve this type of shit if they continue to keep him around.
Taking 3 knees and attempting a long FG in weather does not win the game even if successful. Running for a potential 1st down does have an outcome of winning the game. I support the decision to try to win the game right there by running.
It was the 26, so three kneels put the ball at the 29 which makes it a 47-yarder. It's a kick Nugent should make, but hardly a guarantee given the distance, rain and that he's not very good. A miss puts it at the 37 where the Steelers likely only need a little under 30 yards to get in Boswell's range. It also doesn't burn any clock or obviously give you a chance to win the game right there. You can't coach scared of a RB fumbling.
Not a single person is saying it does win the game right there. Read the thread.
IMO you have to run the ball there to try the end the game without sending your kicker out to try a long FG in those conditions. It isn't like they ran some crazy play, they ran it up the gut with their main RB. A fumble is incredibly unlikely there, just because it happened doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to run.