Yam Madar in a Garden

lovegtm

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He looks longer and quicker (than PP) but that could just be the competition. Anyone actually know his standing reach or wingspan?
Think he's 6-3, don't know wingspan but it looks decent. Agree quickness probably a function of competition.

I'm comfortable saying he has better physical potential than PP, but that's not saying a ton.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Think he's 6-3, don't know wingspan but it looks decent. Agree quickness probably a function of competition.

I'm comfortable saying he has better physical potential than PP, but that's not saying a ton.
As far as skills go, they don't look too similar. Yam actually looks the part of a floor general. Hard to take anything away from the defensive end, but most of the reports say he's a pest on defense. High intensity, high effort.

If he works out, his game looks like it would fit in really nicely with the Jays.
 

128

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As far as skills go, they don't look too similar. Yam actually looks the part of a floor general. Hard to take anything away from the defensive end, but most of the reports say he's a pest on defense. High intensity, high effort.

If he works out, his game looks like it would fit in really nicely with the Jays.
I don't know if he's grown, but he seems taller than in the videos posted of him after he was drafted last year. Still needs to fill out some, obviously.

He also appears to be more of a fast-twitch athlete than Pritchard.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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I don't know if he's grown, but he seems taller than in the videos posted of him after he was drafted last year. Still needs to fill out some, obviously.

He appears to be more of a fast-twitch athlete than Pritchard.
Yeah, he looks more explosive. That's not hard to do though, and some of it is definitely the competition. His arms look longer/lankier to me than PP's and PP's wingspan is 6'4.5. Not very good for an NBA player who is 6'2. If his arms are longer/lankier and he is quicker... those are things that will matter a lot when it comes to their potential on the defensive end.

He plays with a lot of confidence too, has good vision and can be creative. He looks like an actual point guard. I don't know if he works out but I like his game a lot.
 

teddykgb

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Very few of those baskets he made are available at the NBA level. He slips out for layups after misses which you almost never see in the NBA and otherwise he’s passing up shots to drive at the teeth of the defense and that works for him there but I’d rather see him drilling shots all over the place than finishing in traffic. Doesn’t make him unable to make it but it makes it hard for me to analyze his offensive game because I think he will need to adapt. Definitely showing vision there and seems really confident with the ball
 

HomeRunBaker

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We are a long way from it making a difference, but are folks aware Madar is trying to get out of his deal with his Israeli team, or at least prevent them from having a buyout?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/celticswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/09/nba-boston-celtics-madar-suing-team/amp/
Let’s keep in mind that old friend James Young was leading that league in scoring prior to the shutdown last year. This year it is Casey Prather who was a bench big at Florida until his senior year. This isn’t a top international league at all.....probably not even Top 10.
 

radsoxfan

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Hey hey now. You’re talking to a Romeo guy here. Now if you want to include Edwards and/or Waters I can agree.
Haha, yeah I know. Meant it as a joke because I have been so down on their NBA production this year.

I know you like Romeo, I'm on the fence with him truthfully, just have been pointing out how truly awful his offense has been so far. I like him more than Grant going forward and can squint and imagine Romeo potentially turning into something good.

Edwards and Waters might not dominate that league, but would probably be solid 6th men :)
 

oumbi

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Let’s keep in mind that old friend James Young was leading that league in scoring prior to the shutdown last year. This year it is Casey Prather who was a bench big at Florida until his senior year. This isn’t a top international league at all.....probably not even Top 10.
In a meaningless update, Caleb Prather has been dethroned from the top scoring spot by Caleb Agada. The Yammer is looking up at both of them from the #11 scoring position.
 

HomeRunBaker

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In a meaningless update, Caleb Prather has been dethroned from the top scoring spot by Caleb Agada. The Yammer is looking up at both of them from the #11 scoring position.
The same Caleb Agada who avg 11.2 ppg during his illustrious career at the University of Ottawa! You never can underestimate wings out of the famed Gee-Gees program.
 

EL Jeffe

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As I said in the summer thread, the skill level is there. But physically, he looks like Chris Evans in that first Captain America movie before they put him through the radiation to turn him into Captain America. I haven't been able to find any official measurements on him; he's usually listed as 6'3, 180#. But there's no way. He looks maybe 6'1, 160#. He's in his age 20 season, so maybe he eventually fills out some, but his frame doesn't look like it was meant to hold much bulk. Maybe he can take a trip to Stark Industries or something.
 

Cesar Crespo

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As I said in the summer thread, the skill level is there. But physically, he looks like Chris Evans in that first Captain America movie before they put him through the radiation to turn him into Captain America. I haven't been able to find any official measurements on him; he's usually listed as 6'3, 180#. But there's no way. He looks maybe 6'1, 160#. He's in his age 20 season, so maybe he eventually fills out some, but his frame doesn't look like it was meant to hold much bulk. Maybe he can take a trip to Stark Industries or something.
He looks longer and taller than PP. He is on the lean side but a lot of young players are before they hit the NBA. It just looks like he hasn't seen a weight room.
 

128

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That's my impression too. He's bouncier too, gets good elevation on his jump shot. I'm bullish.
How his game will translate to the NBA, if it ever does, is still an unknown, but he's definitely longer and more quick-twitch than Pritchard (whom I like).
 

HomeRunBaker

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How his game will translate to the NBA, if it ever does, is still an unknown, but he's definitely longer and more quick-twitch than Pritchard (whom I like).
He’s so different than Pritchard in that he is a pure PG and distributor......like a poor mans Campazzo, whereas Pritchard is a shooting guard in a PG’s body and struggles agaiant certain types of players on both ends. You pay that price for his 3-point shooting and can spot him against certain matchups to get production out of him.
 

EL Jeffe

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Yeah but that’s like saying Grant Williams will be fine because Barkley had a similar body.
Right. Allen Iverson was like 165#, which is probably where Madar ends up. But he was Allen Bleeping Iverson.

That said, I'd love to see Madar play in summer league and see how he looks there.
 

Cellar-Door

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Right. Allen Iverson was like 165#, which is probably where Madar ends up. But he was Allen Bleeping Iverson.

That said, I'd love to see Madar play in summer league and see how he looks there.
Madar is probably 180 right now. He appears to be a legit 6'3", Iverson was maybe 5'11"
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, but Iverson was incredibly strong and tough, all-time quick, and overall a once-a-decade level athlete. There's a lot more 6-3 guards than guys with Iverson's physical tools.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, but Iverson was incredibly strong and tough, all-time quick, and overall a once-a-decade level athlete. There's a lot more 6-3 guards than guys with Iverson's physical tools.
Well yeah, Iverson was really good (though overrated), my point was that Madar isn't going to end up at 165, he's a good 4-5 inches taller than Iverson and Iverson was really lean, Madar will play somewhere between 180 and 195 likely depending how much muscle he can put on.
 

Sausage in Section 17

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I don't think anyone is projecting an Iverson or Curry outcome for Madar, just suggesting that guys with that body type do succeed, at varying levels of success.
Right. But do guys of that size succeed without possessing some other all-world quality skills? Like being pretty much the best shooter of all time or the quickest guy ever to play in the NBA?

Not many.
 

Cellar-Door

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Madar isn't even that small... the NBA is loaded with guys who entered the league in the 6'2"-6'3" 175-180 range.
 

EL Jeffe

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I'd like to see Yam next to Tremont Waters. I think he's a lot closer to 6'1 165# than 6'3 180#. I don't think we'll ever get official measurements on him at this point. In any event, I'll be pulling for him.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Right. But do guys of that size succeed without possessing some other all-world quality skills? Like being pretty much the best shooter of all time or the quickest guy ever to play in the NBA?

Not many.
Yeah, when you start with “he is bigger than Iverson” you kind of have to deal with the rest of the package too. If the point is only “guys who are 6-3 can make it” that’s fine but Iverson is only a comp if you are in the same universe skill and athleticism-wise…and Madar isn’t
 

lovegtm

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Madar isn't even that small... the NBA is loaded with guys who entered the league in the 6'2"-6'3" 175-180 range.
Yeah, this is weird, I feel like people haven't seen what pre-strength training 20 year-olds look like.

This isn't football--tons of good players start on the skinny side just because of what the game selects for. Most can add muscle.

Yam has a ton of question marks, but "ability to add 10-20 pounds and get stronger" is pretty low on that list imo.
 

radsoxfan

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So where would he go in this draft if he was eligible?

Has he significantly improved his stock?
 
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lovegtm

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So where would he go in this draft if we was eligible?

Has he significantly improved his stock?
He still has 4 years of control if he comes over, and he answered a lot of questions re shooting. Probably earlier in the 2nd round, but not to a 1st rounder or anything.
 

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It's all about competition and who he plays. Evaluating guards on film is almost impossible. The pro team I worked with was in summer 2019 had agents threaten to pull imports. So I went through over 100 guys to create a shortlist. Each league was ranked, and Israel league was not ranked high. But, our best player had been in Div 2 Ukraine, a small college guy "only" 6'3. There are alot of not quite NBA older guys in better legues that it would be intersting to see him play against.

That said a guy who shoots 40% at any level from 3 is almost always a good shooter at almost any level. If he say shoots over 40 again he will go to better league. Considering, whatever the level that he is kid playing against men in rough, physical fiba league, he is certainly intriguing.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, when you start with “he is bigger than Iverson” you kind of have to deal with the rest of the package too. If the point is only “guys who are 6-3 can make it” that’s fine but Iverson is only a comp if you are in the same universe skill and athleticism-wise…and Madar isn’t
That's completely missing the point. Although comparing him to Iverson or Curry is completely missing the point too. It's not like there's a shortage of 6'3 players in the NBA. There are a lot, and not all of them are Steph or Al. They also come in the form of PP and Aaron Holiday.

Everything I've read on Mader says he has NBA size. He just needs to bulk up, badly. He doesn't turn 21 until December so that's not too shocking. If he's brought over state side, on day 1, he'll have a workout regimen to bulk up and gain strength.

There are lots of reasons to have doubts about Yam Mader as a prospect but his length and height are not. His skinny frame might be but it looks like his body might support another 10-15 lbs muscle. At his age and with NBA resources, that's 2 years tops. That's pure muscle weight. I'm sure if the goal was to just gain 15-20 lbs, it'd take maybe 2-3 months. He'll always be on the skinny side but that doesn't mean he won't be able to hold his own.

The discussion just seems so odd when people are bringing up AI and Curry and suggesting you need an elite level skill to play in the NBA at the height. Some of us want him to be brought over on a 2 way deal and play the year in the G league. That's met with a response of "He's small. He needs to shoot like Steph Curry or be as quick as AI to stay in the NBA." Yeah, because Curry and AI were on the fringe and not HOFers. /sarcasm.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's all about competition and who he plays. Evaluating guards on film is almost impossible. The pro team I worked with was in summer 2019 had agents threaten to pull imports. So I went through over 100 guys to create a shortlist. Each league was ranked, and Israel league was not ranked high. But, our best player had been in Div 2 Ukraine, a small college guy "only" 6'3. There are alot of not quite NBA older guys in better legues that it would be intersting to see him play against.

That said a guy who shoots 40% at any level from 3 is almost always a good shooter at almost any level. If he say shoots over 40 again he will go to better league. Considering, whatever the level that he is kid playing against men in rough, physical fiba league, he is certainly intriguing.
And this is why I (and others) want him on a 2 way deal. The G league is far better competition and the size of players is closer to the NBA level. He's one of the best players in his league right now, he has nothing to prove there.
 

PedroKsBambino

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That's completely missing the point. Although comparing him to Iverson or Curry is completely missing the point too. It's not like there's a shortage of 6'3 players in the NBA. There are a lot, and not all of them are Steph or Al. They also come in the form of PP and Aaron Holiday.

Everything I've read on Mader says he has NBA size. He just needs to bulk up, badly. He doesn't turn 21 until December so that's not too shocking. If he's brought over state side, on day 1, he'll have a workout regimen to bulk up and gain strength.

There are lots of reasons to have doubts about Yam Mader as a prospect but his length and height are not. His skinny frame might be but it looks like his body might support another 10-15 lbs muscle. At his age and with NBA resources, that's 2 years tops. That's pure muscle weight. I'm sure if the goal was to just gain 15-20 lbs, it'd take maybe 2-3 months. He'll always be on the skinny side but that doesn't mean he won't be able to hold his own.

The discussion just seems so odd when people are bringing up AI and Curry and suggesting you need an elite level skill to play in the NBA at the height. Some of us want him to be brought over on a 2 way deal and play the year in the G league. That's met with a response of "He's small. He needs to shoot like Steph Curry or be as quick as AI to stay in the NBA." Yeah, because Curry and AI were on the fringe and not HOFers. /sarcasm.
You just restated my point using a lot more words, so obviously I was not in fact missing it...
 

Cesar Crespo

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You just restated my point using a lot more words, so obviously I was not in fact missing it...
The guy you quoted asked if players that size can succeed without other worldly skills and then used AI and Curry as examples.

I was mostly referring to him. It's pretty obvious, that yes, they can.
 

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It's all about competition and who he plays. Evaluating guards on film is almost impossible. The pro team I worked with was in summer 2019 had agents threaten to pull imports. So I went through over 100 guys to create a shortlist. Each league was ranked, and Israel league was not ranked high. But, our best player had been in Div 2 Ukraine, a small college guy "only" 6'3. There are alot of not quite NBA older guys in better legues that it would be intersting to see him play against.

That said a guy who shoots 40% at any level from 3 is almost always a good shooter at almost any level. If he say shoots over 40 again he will go to better league. Considering, whatever the level that he is kid playing against men in rough, physical fiba league, he is certainly intriguing.
Any chance he does a year in Europe with the idea of G-league next season
 

Sausage in Section 17

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The guy you quoted asked if players that size can succeed without other worldly skills and then used AI and Curry as examples.

I was mostly referring to him. It's pretty obvious, that yes, they can.
Sorry for the wake this one thought created. I was not clear when commenting on the comparison someone else made. I think we all believe in the neighbourhood of the same thing. It's sort of depends on what the definition of "success" is, but yeah, you can be successful without being in the HOF. If I really had a dog in this fight, it would be that in the modern NBA, at a certain point, lack of size MUST be balanced in some way by possessing some other premium skill set. I don't know enough about Madar to know if that's true.

While I wasn't (and am still not) trying to make the HOF=success argument, I got curious and did find a place which lists HOF inductees by height, and I could only find 6 guys 6'3" or under who are in the HOF in the last 40ish years : Dumars, Nash, Stockton, Thomas, Iverson, and Mo Cheeks. Moncrief and Archibald are back around then, too.
 

EL Jeffe

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I just don't see it as a given that Madar bulks up. First, he's been playing professionally since 2018. He has access to world class strength and conditioning training, and while 20 is still young, he's frail looking. His age 20 physique didn't look any different from age 19. Again, as a pro basketball player already, it's not like the NBA has some sort of proprietary secret sauce for strength training that Israel or other pro leagues don't have.

Secondly, not everyone has the frame to add weight. Poku, Shaun Livingston, Tayshaun Prince, Rondo...there's no shortage of examples of players who are just naturally skinny. Skeletal structure, bone density- some players just don't have the frame to add weight. When I see Madar, I see that same sort of body type. I hope he adds bulk, but I don't see it as a given.

I mean, I've been wrong a million and one times, and I'm sure I'll be wrong a million and one more. It's entirely possible Yam will be fine physically, or that his size won'thold him back. I hope he makes it. But I reject the notion that it's a given that he'll easily bulk up once he hits the states or ages. It doesn't work that way for everyone.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I just don't see it as a given that Madar bulks up. First, he's been playing professionally since 2018. He has access to world class strength and conditioning training, and while 20 is still young, he's frail looking. His age 20 physique didn't look any different from age 19. Again, as a pro basketball player already, it's not like the NBA has some sort of proprietary secret sauce for strength training that Israel or other pro leagues don't have.

Secondly, not everyone has the frame to add weight. Poku, Shaun Livingston, Tayshaun Prince, Rondo...there's no shortage of examples of players who are just naturally skinny. Skeletal structure, bone density- some players just don't have the frame to add weight. When I see Madar, I see that same sort of body type. I hope he adds bulk, but I don't see it as a given.

I mean, I've been wrong a million and one times, and I'm sure I'll be wrong a million and one more. It's entirely possible Yam will be fine physically, or that his size won'thold him back. I hope he makes it. But I reject the notion that it's a given that he'll easily bulk up once he hits the states or ages. It doesn't work that way for everyone.
He has no definition. At the very least, he can add some upper body strength. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think an NBA player would have access to better equipment than an Israeli League player. And all those players you mentioned stuck in the NBA and had decent careers (Poku TBD) anyway.

edit: He does have a very Rajon Rondo type body.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This was my initial reaction, too. But when confirming, I saw him listed as both 4" and 3", with the latter slightly more frequent. In my youth, I'm certain he was listed at 6' 4".
Interesting. I see BRef has him at 6'3", among others.

However, Moncrief (and Ron Brewer and Marvin Delph) were members of the "Triplets," so called because they were all the same height and all from ARK. And that height, according to stories back then, was 6'4".

E.g., this article: https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2497252/razorback-triplets-were-a-big-blessing

Maybe it was all marketing.
 

reggiecleveland

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Any chance he does a year in Europe with the idea of G-league next season
I am literally way out of my league, on this. But, as aguy with his eye on the NBA there is real chance he moves. Generally young guys stay home, since top teams want vet stars as their imports, and they can make just as much money, as a local hero. I am not sure what the status of an Israeli player is in the euro leagues. Is he an import?
 

benhogan

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I am literally way out of my league, on this. But, as aguy with his eye on the NBA there is real chance he moves. Generally young guys stay home, since top teams want vet stars as their imports, and they can make just as much money, as a local hero. I am not sure what the status of an Israeli player is in the euro leagues. Is he an import?
OK that makes sense. If you're a top team/league in Europe you're taking the mid/late 20yr olds that wash out of the G-League, since Euro teams are limited on imports. Your imports aren't going to be young players looking to develop/grow for the benefit of the Boston Celtics

I had a buddy that played at Nova (2nd team All-Big East) and he continued playing overseas after graduating for several years. According to him, playing in Argentina was by far the most fun (esp. in regards to the female fans)
 

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My nephew played in Sweden and Czech republic. He was one of the best players ever in Canadian college. He grew late was 6'5 in high school, ended up 6'8. Lute Olsen decided not to take him as transfer, since he had used three years in Canada. He got to play 3-4 games a year vs Div 1 schools, and went to work. In europe he kicked the crap out of enough All Big Ten, etc guys that he made up for missing his chance to play at Arizona, etc. His girlfriend did not go with him to Sweden. We watched as each game he was interviewed post game by another impossibly beautiful 6 foot blond, while seeing women that looked like super models of various ages, were gathering in the edges of the shot waiting for his autograph. When he hit a buzzer beater to win the game associated with festival at the sports club and the women's team, and women's volleyball team ran onto the court and mobbed him, none of us were surprised when his girlfriend sent an email the next morning that she had decided she couldn't spend Christmas without him, and had decided to go to Sweden.