Worst In Game Pitching Decision In Red Sox History
- Thread starter Papo The Snow Tiger
- Start date
There was a lot of internet chatter back then about Williamson being an absolute stress case to the point that there were threads devoted to analyzing the new blister on his lip and whether it was related to stress or maybe herpes(I don’t ever want to hear post 04 players saying the media is too tough here).
if this thread merged into late inning managerial decisions with pitchers, may I suggest a discourse on Farrell leaving Workman in to hit in the World Series?
if this thread merged into late inning managerial decisions with pitchers, may I suggest a discourse on Farrell leaving Workman in to hit in the World Series?
I voted for a Grady … but there’s a case to be made for Zimmer’s Sprowl decision. Zimmer had Bill Lee cooling his heels in Zimmers’s doghouse. (Mind you he’d lost a bunch of games in a row before being taken out of the rotation.)
I remember it well and a I don’t think the Shiraldi/Stanley move was that egregious. McNamara’s real sins were committed earlier in the game in a whole series of stupid decisions that led to Buckner still being on the field.
No way to evaluate Galehouse other than through books.
I remember it well and a I don’t think the Shiraldi/Stanley move was that egregious. McNamara’s real sins were committed earlier in the game in a whole series of stupid decisions that led to Buckner still being on the field.
No way to evaluate Galehouse other than through books.
I was watching that game with my girlfriend at the time. She had watched basically 10 games in her entire life and was baffled by the decision. She knew very little about baseball before we met, and was asking me why Pedro was still in. Through gritted teeth I told her, "I. Don't. Know."
Someone here had to go to the ER because he punched a wall the night Gagne blew the game in Toronto in 07. I think it was @Smiling Joe Hesketh
I smashed my cell phone and punched two holes through drywall after Boone's HR. Fortunately missed the studs, or I would have certainly broken my hand. That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.
I was at a bar for that. Had to leave or I would've ended up killing this annoying fucking MFY fan* who was congratulating me in the 5th inning. Walked home and the first pitch I saw was Boone.
*edit: Full disclosure, I remain glad I didn't murder a 20-something female Yankees fan in a full bar.
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My college had suicide prevention information all over the place after 2003 ALCS Game 7.
Dude's basically a Nazi. Really takes the shine off the heroism of G6 for me, but there's no changing any of it anyway.
When Boone hit that homer, and the Marlins made it in, I knew they would beat the Yankees in the WS. Just somehow knew it and was so happy when they did. I can still see Josh Beckett jumping around.
Oh, I also punched a hole in drywall that night after Boone's homer. Thankfully the budding engineering students who I lived with who worked construction in the summer patched it the next day on my behalf.
Re Zimmer and Lee I agree- I posted this yesterday in the Sat. game thread
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After watching the Mets 30 for 30 last week, I started looking at the Sox stats from the 86 playoff run and McNamara was a clueless butcher. For one month of playing high-leverage games, he used eight pitchers on his staff. By the time Game 6 of the World Series rolled around, those arms were hamburger. I wasn't able to find the playoff rosters, but he just didn't trust anyone not named Schiraldi or Stanely. Crawford and Sambito were the only other relievers used and they were in mop-up rolls.
I know 1986 was the dark ages when it came to handling pitchers, but put it this way, the next time the Sox made the Series: Francona used eight pitchers in the 04 World Series, nine in 07 (both sweeps), Farrell used 10 in 2013 and Cora used 10 in 2018.
John McNamara was such a bad manager.
Edit: having said all of that, I still chose Grady Little.
I know 1986 was the dark ages when it came to handling pitchers, but put it this way, the next time the Sox made the Series: Francona used eight pitchers in the 04 World Series, nine in 07 (both sweeps), Farrell used 10 in 2013 and Cora used 10 in 2018.
John McNamara was such a bad manager.
Edit: having said all of that, I still chose Grady Little.
I don’t disagree with you but the game in 1986 was so different. Sox starters had 36 complete games that year! The only relievers with an ERA+ of 100 or better were Schiraldi (299) and Crawford (107). Schiraldi was the only reliever who struck out more than 7/9.
The Mets had a much better pen but only used five relievers in the series; and Doug Sisk only pitched 2/3 of an inning.
it’s funny to think about how important it was to get an opposing pitchers pitch count up, now that’s almost completely irrelevant.
Sox only carried 10 pitchers on the WS roster: Boyd, Clemens, Crawford, Hurst, Lollar, Nipper, Sambito, Schiraldi, Stanley, and Stewart). Lollar and Stewart never pitched, Sambito just 1/3 of an inning.
(It’s pretty wild to see that the Sox only had six relievers who made 10 or more appearances that whole season. And the farm system was fairly barren back then too).
The Mets had a much better pen but only used five relievers in the series; and Doug Sisk only pitched 2/3 of an inning.
it’s funny to think about how important it was to get an opposing pitchers pitch count up, now that’s almost completely irrelevant.
Sox only carried 10 pitchers on the WS roster: Boyd, Clemens, Crawford, Hurst, Lollar, Nipper, Sambito, Schiraldi, Stanley, and Stewart). Lollar and Stewart never pitched, Sambito just 1/3 of an inning.
(It’s pretty wild to see that the Sox only had six relievers who made 10 or more appearances that whole season. And the farm system was fairly barren back then too).
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This does not help. Williamson had pitched clean innings in that series, in Yankee Stadium, in games 1 and 6. Williamson was on a tear, eight postseason appearances with 8IP, 3H, 1HR, 1R 3BB, 14K. I am getting angry all over again. This was a complete no brainer, and for Grady to have not made the change means he literally had no brain. Just a bunch of fucking cottage cheese in his skull or something.
Sounds like your wife is more of a baseball fan than mine. My wife would have said "that pitcher" instead of "Pedro". Like one time she said she heard "that pitcher" is pitching in Oakland tomorrow night. "Why don't you take the boys to the game." We went. Easy win. Same thing with Clemens when we had him. We sat behind home plate, third row, and he pitched a CG 2 hit shutout. Balls popping the catcher's mitt were like rifle shots.
Trouble is we don't have a Clemens or a Pedro. Well, Sale, but will we get more than 6 innings out of him in a game this year?
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2003 I went across the street after work to watch the game in a Manhattan bar. When the Sox went up 3, 4 nothing I relaxed a bit and chatted up a girl I worked with but hadn't met before that night. We got along well. We went outside and kissed for a bit. Went back inside for the 7th.
I never ended up talking to her again. Just completely forgot she was there by the 8th and we never again saw each other at work.
It was so obvious to everyone, Sox or Yankees fans, didn't matter, that Pedro was toast and should have been pulled. That one is the worst because it was so clear in the moment it was like watching a horror movie where the teenager walks into the empty basement looking for her boyfriend while the killer is at large. Literally "yell at the TV" level bad.
I never ended up talking to her again. Just completely forgot she was there by the 8th and we never again saw each other at work.
It was so obvious to everyone, Sox or Yankees fans, didn't matter, that Pedro was toast and should have been pulled. That one is the worst because it was so clear in the moment it was like watching a horror movie where the teenager walks into the empty basement looking for her boyfriend while the killer is at large. Literally "yell at the TV" level bad.
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I picked Joe McCarthy, but that is based on a book. His choice was simply righthand pitcher over by far his best pitcher since "Fenway is bad for lefties."
But, Grady has to be the only one where all of us knew it was wrong. He had three guys who had been dealing, Embree, Timlin, WIlliamson.
But, Grady has to be the only one where all of us knew it was wrong. He had three guys who had been dealing, Embree, Timlin, WIlliamson.
I never understood why McNamara didn't bring Clemens on in the 7th inning of "86 Game 7 when the score was tied instead of going with Schiraldi, Stanley, Sambito and AL NIPPER. (Some writer called his start in Game 4 "the first formally scheduled forfeit in World Series history.") It was short rest to be sure, but there was a day of rest because the 7th game was postponed from Sunday to Monday. It was THE SEVENTH GAME
Did McNamara ever say why? Was it the blister? Was Clemens even in the bullpen? I think
Did McNamara ever say why? Was it the blister? Was Clemens even in the bullpen? I think
Bruce Hurst was DEALING in that game until the 6th.
1st inning: 1-2-3 on 9 pitches
2nd inning: a single, and only four batters, on just 9 pitches
3rd inning: 1-2-3 on 11 pitches
4th inning: 1-2-3 on 11 pitches
5th inning: 1-2-3 on 16 pitches
So 15 outs on just 56 pitches, allowing just one baserunner. And then to start the 6th he got Rafael Santana on a groundout on the 3rd pitch.
Then things unraveled.
Single
Single
Walk
Single (scores 2)
Groundout (scores 1)
Fly out
Then the ill-fated 7th, tied at 3. Schiraldi comes in. Schiraldi who blew it the game before and who pitched 3 innings.
HR
Single
Wild Pitch
Single
Sacrifice
Then Schiraldi is replaced by Joe Sambito.
Ugh
1st inning: 1-2-3 on 9 pitches
2nd inning: a single, and only four batters, on just 9 pitches
3rd inning: 1-2-3 on 11 pitches
4th inning: 1-2-3 on 11 pitches
5th inning: 1-2-3 on 16 pitches
So 15 outs on just 56 pitches, allowing just one baserunner. And then to start the 6th he got Rafael Santana on a groundout on the 3rd pitch.
Then things unraveled.
Single
Single
Walk
Single (scores 2)
Groundout (scores 1)
Fly out
Then the ill-fated 7th, tied at 3. Schiraldi comes in. Schiraldi who blew it the game before and who pitched 3 innings.
HR
Single
Wild Pitch
Single
Sacrifice
Then Schiraldi is replaced by Joe Sambito.
Ugh
I think McNamara's explanation was he was saving Clemens for a lead. Which is kinda dumb because they had the lead until the bottom of the 6th. Even after Hurst gave it up (he was gassed going on short rest), Clemens for the seventh and eighth to hold the tie and give the offense a chance would have made all the sense in the world. Instead he went to Schiraldi (speaking of gassed) who immediately gave up the HR to Knight. Then a parade of blech as the Mets kept scoring.
He wrote about it in his autobiography in 1988. Said he was in the bullpen ready to go but never got the call.
I know. Expecting McNamara to be a guy to break 100+ years of pitching tradition is crazy. Lollar, Stewart and Sambito collectively pitched 1/3 of an inning all month. Which, I mean, he had them pitching all year. Why all of a sudden did he get scared to use them. And I recognize that this trio wasn't the Nasty Boys circa 1990, but Stewart and Sambito at close to 100% must have been better than a cooked Schiraldi. Or Al Nipper.
Whether it was his bench or his bullpen, McNamara had a really hard time keeping his players fresh. Baylor, Buckner, Armas and Rice were well north of 30-years-old and Mac had them all playing 150+ games (Armas actually played 121). Gedman caught 135 games.
1000% agree with you on McNamara's usage of players and his post-season management. However, that was a very very thin team without a ton of depth. The Sox don't win the division without Mac riding those guys hard all year. That said, they were on fire in September (11 game win streak, got the lead up to 10.5 with 15 to play) and clinched with a week left. Guys could and should have been given some time off heading into the ALCS. Other than Buckner getting a couple days off after the clinch (mostly because his ankles were shot), most guys kept right on starting and playing every day.
I think one of the most important things that happened for their post-season prospects was Hurst getting hurt in June and missing about six weeks. That allowed him to be fresher than the rest of the staff in October, and it paid off right until the sixth inning of Game 7.
They were pissed off at each other, weren't they, McNamara because Clemens came out of game six for what Mac called a "paper cut" type severity, and Clemens because Mac pooh-poohed the "injury". So, Mac cut off all our noses to spite our faces by not getting the big guy into game 7.
Had McNamara pulled Schiraldi after two batters reached with two out in game 6 and put either of Crawford or Stanley in there, there may not have been a game 7 to fret about.
Yeah. I think they continued to disagree right up until Mac died, each insisting that Clemens coming out of Game 6 was the other one's decision.
I'm curious who the best Red Sox pitcher is since Pedro..... Jon Lester? Sale? Beckett?
Every single one of those 3 had some pretty down years or were injured during their Sox tenure
Every single one of those 3 had some pretty down years or were injured during their Sox tenure
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was Oil Can a consideration out of the pen in game 7. I have a vague memory of him supposed to be starting Game 7, then they got a rainout which gave Hurst an extra day, and Can was not at all happy about being passed over. Am I crazy or did he essentially make himself unavailable for Game 7?
In terms of most talented/best stuff, it's Sale. Not really that close. 2.92 FIP/3.02 ERA/1.04 WHIP in a Red Sox uniform. The other guys can't really touch that.
For durability + performance, it's probably Lester. Once he was up for good and past cancer, he made 30+ starts for 11 straight years (6.5 in Boston). That streak stopped last year (obviously) but he made 12 in 60 games, which is 30+ pace for a full season.
He was pretty pissed that he got passed over for Hurst (which was probably the right call). Sunday's game got rained out, which is why Hurst got to go again. I thought that I read somewhere that he got hammered the night before and was in no condition to pitch in the game, which is why McNamara had to go to Nipper that night. TBH I don't think Boyd would have done much, the Mets slapped him around in Game 3.
What I wonder is how Tom Seaver would have done in that Series. I bet he starts Game 4 instead of Nipper.
I love Pedro, but Embree got Nick Johnston to hit into a DP in the 7th inning to preserve a 7-6 lead 1 day earlier.
McNamara claimed he was drunk and in no condition to pitch. Boyd admits that as soon as he found out he was being passed over, he left the park (or the team hotel) to score some crack. He also says he smoked crack every day of that season, including at the park on days he was pitching. He probably doesn't fare any better than Hurst did if he starts that game.
With a healthy Seaver, the Sox win the championship. I'm convinced of that. He not only starts World Series game 4 instead of Nipper, but he probably starts at least one game in the ALCS so Clemens, Hurst, and Boyd don't go on three days rest (Clemens twice, once while ill). Those guys on better/regular rest in the World Series might have yielded different/better results too.
I haven't read that book since the 1980s, but I thought Clemens said the plan was for him to be the closer in Game 7 yet things never got to the closer stage.
It absolutely was that clear and is the worst coaching decision I have ever seen in any sport.
Bill James ( in one of his abstracts) said Al Nipper was the worst pitcher to ever start a World Series game
I don't remember that. Just that he said he was in the pen and jumped every time the phone rang, but it was never for him. "Closer" wasn't the same back then as it is now.
They didn't really hold guys in reserve for the 9th or a true save situation back then. It was the tail end of the Gossage/Fingers style "closer" who might come in as early as the seventh if there was trouble and then just finish the game (or try to). For all intents and purposes, Schiraldi was the closer on that team (and if not him, Stanley) and he got the ball in a tie game in the seventh. If that was a spot for him, then it was a potential spot for Clemens. Same for the eighth when Nipper came in to a 6-5 game and gave up two.
To me, not using Clemens when he was there and available was akin to Showalter not using Britton in that wildcard game in Toronto a few years back.
In 2003, my then-girlfriend was doing research on indigenous tribes in the Amazon rainforest. As the ALCS progressed, I became more and more insistent that I needed to watch the 7th game, so we returned by boat to Manaus and I spent several hours arranging a TV feed via a nearby business's satellite and the longest stretch of coax in South America.
My girlfriend was reluctant to interrupt her research, and ended up bringing several young mothers from the tribe to continue her interviews about their child rearing practices. To her annoyance, there was no door between her interview room and my TV watching room, and the women's gaze was constantly pulled in my direction by the noise and lights of the game.
When Pedro returned to the mound in the 8th, one of the woman motioned to my girlfriend that she had a question for me. Then, this woman, who had never watched TV, who had never seen a baseball game, and who had never seen any sport of any kind, asked me why "the tired man had to keep throwing."
That's how obvious it was.
Okay, none of that story is true, but I'm sticking with it.
My girlfriend was reluctant to interrupt her research, and ended up bringing several young mothers from the tribe to continue her interviews about their child rearing practices. To her annoyance, there was no door between her interview room and my TV watching room, and the women's gaze was constantly pulled in my direction by the noise and lights of the game.
When Pedro returned to the mound in the 8th, one of the woman motioned to my girlfriend that she had a question for me. Then, this woman, who had never watched TV, who had never seen a baseball game, and who had never seen any sport of any kind, asked me why "the tired man had to keep throwing."
That's how obvious it was.
Okay, none of that story is true, but I'm sticking with it.
Nipper was pretty lousy in 1986, but was pretty much a journeyman (lifetime ERA + of 94). I'd be surprised if he was the worst. He actually pitched pretty well in Game 4 (3 runs in 6 inning). I doubt Seaver would have been able to match Darling zero for zero in that game.
How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?
I’ve never heard too much about Ojeda as a Red Sox- how did that trade go over when it happened?
I had a large collection of sports books when I was a kid back in the late 70s and into the 80s, and one of them was a series of anecdotes about sports bloopers and mistakes and bad decisions (etc.). I can't remember the name of it, but I still remember the story in it about the decision to start Denny Galehouse, and how there was no justification for it whatsoever. At least Grady's decision sort of looks justified on paper; I don't think McCarthy's made sense in any way. So that got my vote, at least insofar as it's an option in the poll (even if it doesn't actually fit the criteria of the poll question).