Worst In Game Pitching Decision In Red Sox History

[Red(s)HawksFan]

How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?

I’ve never heard too much about Ojeda as a Red Sox- how did that trade go over when it happened?

Too young to remember reaction to the trade in the moment, but Ojeda was generally pretty mediocre in his Red Sox career. 4.21 ERA and 1.418 WHIP in 718 total innings. He had a career year for the Mets in '86, another solid season in '88 (arguably better than '86), but otherwise returned to the same mediocrity. I'd compare it to Rick Porcello's run with the Sox...an out of nowhere CY type season, then back to a back of the rotation guy.

Schiraldi was a highly touted first round draft pick, taken just a few spots after his college teammate Clemens (he won the most outstanding player award at the 1983 College World Series). Wes Gardner was a good prospect as well. They were considered the prizes in the deal.

I would guess there wasn't a ton of teeth-gnashing over the trade. Especially since the prevailing thought was that LHP couldn't prosper in Fenway (kinda the same reason they traded Tudor a couple years earlier).

 

[joe dokes]

How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?

The Sox regular season in 86 might have turned out differently without Schiraldis 50IP (in only 25 games).

 

[jmcc5400]

We saved our teeth-gnashing for the Tudor trade.

Ojeda was great in ‘81 and helped key an unexpected run in the second half. After that he was pretty mediocre by conventional measurements at the time (W-L and ERA) and there was the prevailing (and lazy) sentiment that lefties couldn’t win in Fenway. The Sox developed three around the same time, and probably held on to the best of them (Hurst).

Anyway, as the poster above notes, Schiraldi and Wes Gardner were considered a good return and the team was so fun in ‘86 no one could get too upset at Ojeda’s success. And Schiraldi was *great* when he came up mid year and stabilized a really bad bullpen. Obviously, things ended …. poorly.

Fwiw, Gardner ended up a fairly important piece for the ‘88 division winners also.

 

[NJ_Sox_Fan]

I was at game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, sitting in the centerfield bleachers. Let me tell you, being at the game was one of the most riveting experiences of my life.

When Pedro came out for the seventh, there was a bit of grumbling amongst Red Sox fans. Though I could understand trying to get a couple more outs from him, while my buddies were ALREADY not having it (Pedro had been turning into a pumpkin at 100 pitches all season). Pedro was hit hard that inning, and clearly was out of gas: a couple line drive outs plus a Giambi home run. But he got out of the inning with the Sox still leading. Okay, we thought, he did his job, his night is done.

One thing that the TV broadcast may not have captured is that when Pedro came back out for the 8th the YS crowd went crazy. Everyone EVERYONE knew he had nothing left. A Yankee fan directly behind me started screaming, "It's the ghost of Babe Ruth! The ghost of Babe Ruth is managing the Red Sox!" When Little kept Pedro in after visiting the mound in the 8th, the crowd went berserk again, more: "It's the ghost of Babe Ruth!" 54,000 people could clearly see what one man could not (and please note that the Sox bullpen was lights out in the postseason - Williamson and Timlin were shutting hitters down). It was a foregone conclusion Pedro would lose the lead.

Though Little perhaps made an equally bad decision putting Wakefield into the game in extra innings. I say this because while Wakefield was effective that year, as a knuckleballer, he was susceptible to giving up home runs. Do or die, tie game, when you're on the road, yeah, not the best time to insert Wakefield.

It's painful to remember it and I almost feel sorry for Little. Clearly the moment was too big for him, and he kind of mentally collapsed. In way, by keeping Pedro in the game he was passing the buck, just too scared to have to be responsible for the outcome, though ironically that's exactly what happened.

The. Worst. Ever.

I was also at this game. Sat on the 1B side. After 7, I had many Yankee fans saying congrats. When Pedro came out for the 8th, those same people were asking me WTF was Little doing. I went from total elation to utter disbelief in what seemed like seconds. By the time Boone came up, I had this guy behind me saying (yelling) Babe! Bucky! Buckner! Boone! over and over. And then he homered. And I had to walk out, back to the garage and wait in traffic while fans went nuts. I don’t think I said a word for 3 days. It was the most depressed I think I’ve ever been.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?

I’ve never heard too much about Ojeda as a Red Sox- how did that trade go over when it happened?

The Sox had several excellent LH starters in the 80s .. Hurst, John Tudor and Ojeda. Because park effects were not a widely published thing yet they were seriously undervalued and the Sox let both Ojeda and , more glaringly Tudor go for a song. (Mike Easler actually). They traded a very good starter for a DH/1B

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tudorjo01.shtml

It is to weep.

 

[jmcc5400]

The Sox had several excellent LH starters in the 80s .. Hurst, John Tudor and Ojeda. Because park effects were not a widely published thing yet they were seriously undervalued and the Sox let both Ojeda and , more glaringly Tudor go for a song. (Mike Easler actually). They traded a very good starter for a DH/1B

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tudorjo01.shtml

It is to weep.

An *old* DH/1b (though Easler’s swing was beautifully suited for Fenway)

 

[BaseballJones]

The Sox had several excellent LH starters in the 80s .. Hurst, John Tudor and Ojeda. Because park effects were not a widely published thing yet they were seriously undervalued and the Sox let both Ojeda and , more glaringly Tudor go for a song. (Mike Easler actually). They traded a very good starter for a DH/1B

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tudorjo01.shtml

It is to weep.

The Sox traded Tudor for Easler.

Easler in two seasons for Boston hit .288/.351/.465/.816, 119 ops+, 43 homers, 165 rbi.

Then Easler was traded for Don Baylor.

And Baylor in two seasons for Boston hit .238/.348/.426/.774, 107 ops+, 47 homers, 151 rbi, and was a key guy on the 1986 team (13th in MVP voting).

So they got four pretty useful years out of the guys they got for Tudor. Tudor, in seven seasons in the NL, went 78-40 (.661), with a 2.66 era and 1.12 whip.

 

[GB5]

A whole separate discussion is who are the best pitchers the RS have traded or released over the past 20 years:
Lester
Beckett
Arroyo
Melancon
Colon
Kopech
Andrew Miller
Bard
Montas

 

[Jason Bae]

A whole separate discussion is who are the best pitchers the RS have traded or released over the past 20 years:
Lester
Beckett
Arroyo
Melancon
Colon
Kopech
Andrew Miller
Bard
Montas

As bad as the Lackey signing was, he did manage 9.3 WAR in 637.2 IP after they traded him. Rich Hill's managed 11.4 WAR in 629.2 IP since he left the Sox in 2014.

 

[cantor44]

I was also at this game. Sat on the 1B side. After 7, I had many Yankee fans saying congrats. When Pedro came out for the 8th, those same people were asking me WTF was Little doing. I went from total elation to utter disbelief in what seemed like seconds. By the time Boone came up, I had this guy behind me saying (yelling) Babe! Bucky! Buckner! Boone! over and over. And then he homered. And I had to walk out, back to the garage and wait in traffic while fans went nuts. I don’t think I said a word for 3 days. It was the most depressed I think I’ve ever been.

As soon as Boone hit it, we made a bee line for the exits and to the subway (I was with 3 other Massachusetts boys who were all now living in NYC). We pushed our way through 54,000 human jumping beans. We got to the subway before most of the crowd and I was swearing, full on yelling, "What the fuck? What is his fucking problem? He's a fucking IDIOT!" I've never been that way in public before or since. And then, it was the most depressed I think I've ever been (though '86 does rival).

 

[Bergs]

Honestly, this could be a list of 8 instead of 5, and 4 would be Little:
1) Starting the 8th
2) Left in after Jeter Double
3) Left in after Bernie Single
4) Left in after Matsui Double

Easily the worst-managed half inning in MLB history.

 

[MtPleasant Paul]

The Sox traded Tudor for Easler.

Easler in two seasons for Boston hit .288/.351/.465/.816, 119 ops+, 43 homers, 165 rbi.

Then Easler was traded for Don Baylor.

And Baylor in two seasons for Boston hit .238/.348/.426/.774, 107 ops+, 47 homers, 151 rbi, and was a key guy on the 1986 team (13th in MVP voting).

So they got four pretty useful years out of the guys they got for Tudor. Tudor, in seven seasons in the NL, went 78-40 (.661), with a 2.66 era and 1.12 whip.

Right. There was a sense then that the Sox needed more hitting in the mid-80's.The Eckersley-Buckner trade was also around then. It was a rare time when they seemed to have a surplus of pitching. Hurst, Tudor, and Ojeda all came up between August, 1979 and July, 1980. They won a total of 377 games. Has there ever been another year when the farm system was so productive of pitching?

The Sox also received a third player in the Ojeda trade - a speedy outfielder La Schelle Tarver. He only got three hits in his one year major league career but I remember him scoring the winning run in a come from behind win in '86 on an electrifying (to me) run from first base.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I was also at this game. Sat on the 1B side. After 7, I had many Yankee fans saying congrats. When Pedro came out for the 8th, those same people were asking me WTF was Little doing. I went from total elation to utter disbelief in what seemed like seconds. By the time Boone came up, I had this guy behind me saying (yelling) Babe! Bucky! Buckner! Boone! over and over. And then he homered. And I had to walk out, back to the garage and wait in traffic while fans went nuts. I don’t think I said a word for 3 days. It was the most depressed I think I’ve ever been.

Same here, and, for the first time I thought, gee, maybe I'll be another of the countless thousands of Red Sox fans that goes to his grave without ever seeing his team win the whole thing. I mean, it's so hard to get all the way to the LCS, then win it against another very good team, then win the World Series. Ask Tampa bay and Cleveland. Who knows, it could be another 15-20 years before we might get into position again. Luckily, top management and Theo decided to keep the team together and go out and get Schilling and Foulke and Francona. And we've been blessed since.

To answer the poll: Grady.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Right. There was a sense then that the Sox needed more hitting in the mid-80's.The Eckersley-Buckner trade was also around then. It was a rare time when they seemed to have a surplus of pitching. Hurst, Tudor, and Ojeda all came up between August, 1979 and July, 1980. They won a total of 377 games. Has there ever been another year when the farm system was so productive of pitching?

The Sox also received a third player in the Ojeda trade - a speedy outfielder La Schelle Tarver. He only got three hits in his one year major league career but I remember him scoring the winning run in a come from behind win in '86 on an electrifying (to me) run from first base.

Tarver was kinda vexing. He seemed like a prototypical 80s lead-off type in the minors: .312/.384/.366, 249 SB in ~3000 PA. He was old for a prospect (27 when he debuted), but after that cup of coffee in '86, he was out of the game a year later.

 

[Archer1979]

How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?

I’ve never heard too much about Ojeda as a Red Sox- how did that trade go over when it happened?

I was more upset when the Sox traded John Tudor a couple of years earlier but...

I had to look it up to remind myself (the passage of time condenses things), but Ojeda was the sixth starter for the Sox by the time the trade happened. After being a starter, he spent time in the bullpen and as a starting pitcher. In the '85 off-season, the Sox were high on Clemens even after surgery for a torn labrum so Ojeda was expendable. The Sox needed some bullpen help which is why young Calvin Schiraldi (in a Vin Scully voice) was brought in. They got back four players in Schiraldi; Wes Gardner (who ended up being a starter for the Sox when he was brought up); Lachelle Tarver (fastest guy on a team whose home to first sprints could be clocked with a calendar so he was an oddity for that roster); and John Christensen (who was a PTBNL in the deal that brought in Spike Owen and Dave Henderson).

This was an odd period for the Sox as '75 through '78 was their WS window. After '78, the Sox somewhat languished for a while. There were brief bursts to cause optimism (we got Frank Tanana!!!), but they really never could get it going as the roster was just mismanaged (Watching Fisk walk for NOTHING??? My mom was in tears with that one). Anyone remember when Mark Clear was the missing piece? When Steve Renko was their ace? Bringing in Lou Gorman as GM turned things around in my estimation (he was also the architect for the '86 Mets ironically enough). The odd thing is while the MLB roster was just going through the motions, the farm system was apparently loaded... Wade Boggs (who made Carney Lansford expendable to get Tony Armas), John Tudor, Roger Clemens, Bruce Hurst, Ellis Burks, Mike Greenwell, etc.

For me, there was a ton of optimism in '86. So much so that, in the Spring of '86, I predicted the Sox over the Mets in the World Series in six games. I missed it by that much.

But back on topic, McNamara's decisions with the pitching staff throughout the '86 World Series showed no confidence in his bullpen past Crawford, Stanley, and Schiraldi. Joe Sambito had a couple mop-up innings. I'm not sure if Sammy Stewart was ever asked to warm up.

Obviously, in hindsight, Stanley should have started the 10th. But that was just bullpen mismanagement in general.

All that said, Gump not pulling Pedro was unforgivable.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I know. Expecting McNamara to be a guy to break 100+ years of pitching tradition is crazy. Lollar, Stewart and Sambito collectively pitched 1/3 of an inning all month. Which, I mean, he had them pitching all year. Why all of a sudden did he get scared to use them. And I recognize that this trio wasn't the Nasty Boys circa 1990, but Stewart and Sambito at close to 100% must have been better than a cooked Schiraldi. Or Al Nipper.

Whether it was his bench or his bullpen, McNamara had a really hard time keeping his players fresh. Baylor, Buckner, Armas and Rice were well north of 30-years-old and Mac had them all playing 150+ games (Armas actually played 121). Gedman caught 135 games.

Wanted to touch on this for just a moment: IIRC in the years that have passed since the '86 Series it's come out that Sammy Stewart had a very serious drug problem and may well have been unusable during the WS due to that.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I was more upset when the Sox traded John Tudor a couple of years earlier but...

I had to look it up to remind myself (the passage of time condenses things), but Ojeda was the sixth starter for the Sox by the time the trade happened. After being a starter, he spent time in the bullpen and as a starting pitcher. In the '85 off-season, the Sox were high on Clemens even after surgery for a torn labrum so Ojeda was expendable. The Sox needed some bullpen help which is why young Calvin Schiraldi (in a Vin Scully voice) was brought in. They got back four players in Schiraldi; Wes Gardner (who ended up being a starter for the Sox when he was brought up); Lachelle Tarver (fastest guy on a team whose home to first sprints could be clocked with a calendar so he was an oddity for that roster); and John Christensen (who was a PTBNL in the deal that brought in Spike Owen and Dave Henderson).

This was an odd period for the Sox as '75 through '78 was their WS window. After '78, the Sox somewhat languished for a while. There were brief bursts to cause optimism (we got Frank Tanana!!!), but they really never could get it going as the roster was just mismanaged (Watching Fisk walk for NOTHING??? My mom was in tears with that one). Anyone remember when Mark Clear was the missing piece? When Steve Renko was their ace? Bringing in Lou Gorman as GM turned things around in my estimation (he was also the architect for the '86 Mets ironically enough). The odd thing is while the MLB roster was just going through the motions, the farm system was apparently loaded... Wade Boggs (who made Carney Lansford expendable to get Tony Armas), John Tudor, Roger Clemens, Bruce Hurst, Ellis Burks, Mike Greenwell, etc.

For me, there was a ton of optimism in '86. So much so that, in the Spring of '86, I predicted the Sox over the Mets in the World Series in six games. I missed it by that much.

But back on topic, McNamara's decisions with the pitching staff throughout the '86 World Series showed no confidence in his bullpen past Crawford, Stanley, and Schiraldi. Joe Sambito had a couple mop-up innings. I'm not sure if Sammy Stewart was ever asked to warm up.

Obviously, in hindsight, Stanley should have started the 10th. But that was just bullpen mismanagement in general.

All that said, Gump not pulling Pedro was unforgivable.

The 75 through 80 era was defined by the Sox not understanding park effects, compounded by Haywood Sullivan loathing free agency and players' agents so much that he blew up the team rather than adapt to the new baseball realities.

There have been many, many terrible people that have been part of the front office over the teams' history. Haywood Sullivan doesn't fall to that level of racist evil, but in terms of overall incompetence he was really high up there.

 

[Archer1979]

The 75 through 80 era was defined by the Sox not understanding park effects, compounded by Haywood Sullivan loathing free agency and players' agents so much that he blew up the team rather than adapt to the new baseball realities.

There have been many, many terrible people that have been part of the front office over the teams' history. Haywood Sullivan doesn't fall to that level of racist evil, but in terms of overall incompetence he was really high up there.

Free agency was a little different back then as the initial years it was essentially a draft to get the right to negotiate with a free agent. I think the only impact free agent that they went after in the early years was Bill Campbell (Million Dollar Bill) and Zimmer mismanaged him so badly that his arm almost fell off. But yeah, they had a solid nucleus with Lynn, Fisk, Burleson that they weren't going to pay (all this pre-salary cap).

Wanted to touch on this for just a moment: IIRC in the years that have passed since the '86 Series it's come out that Sammy Stewart had a very serious drug problem and may well have been unusable during the WS due to that.

If that was the case, why didn't they DL him instead of wasting a roster spot. I'm not doubting you at all on this, by Johnny Mac had his bullpen binkies and he was going to use them. I think Sammy Stewart complained during the WS that they were all going to wear bags on their heads (or something like that) because they knew that they weren't going to be used. I'll have to look this up as I'm pretty sure I kept every Boston Herald from that post-season.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

There were 4 players on the 86 WS roster who didn’t play at all (Stewart, Lollar, Hoffman, and Sullivan). Armas, Stapleton, and Romero each had 1 PA, and Sambito pitched 2/3 IP. Pretty remarkable.

The pitchers the Sox used that year who did not make the roster were Seaver (injured), Jeff Sellers, Mike Brown, Rob Woodward, Mike Trujillo, and Wes Gardner. Oof.

 

[joe dokes]

If that was the case, why didn't they DL him instead of wasting a roster spot. I'm not doubting you at all on this, by Johnny Mac had his bullpen binkies and he was going to use them. I think Sammy Stewart complained during the WS that they were all going to wear bags on their heads (or something like that) because they knew that they weren't going to be used. I'll have to look this up as I'm pretty sure I kept every Boston Herald from that post-season.

Stewart probably should have been released. He was that bad after May and a long DL stint in June. But its possible that the fallacy of sunk costs kept him around ("we're paying him AND we traded someone for him. we cant just dump him.") Also- "going on the DL for drug rehab" was a relatively new phenomenon in 1986.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

If that was the case, why didn't they DL him instead of wasting a roster spot. I'm not doubting you at all on this, by Johnny Mac had his bullpen binkies and he was going to use them. I think Sammy Stewart complained during the WS that they were all going to wear bags on their heads (or something like that) because they knew that they weren't going to be used. I'll have to look this up as I'm pretty sure I kept every Boston Herald from that post-season.

That's my thinking too. DL him if he was no good to the team. I don't think that I'll ever really understand John McNamara and why he did what he did.

There were 4 players on the 86 WS roster who didn’t play at all (Stewart, Lollar, Hoffman, and Sullivan). Armas, Stapleton, and Romero each had 1 PA, and Sambito pitched 2/3 IP. Pretty remarkable.

The pitchers the Sox used that year who did not make the roster were Seaver (injured), Jeff Sellers, Mike Brown, Rob Woodward, Mike Trujillo, and Wes Gardner. Oof.

Glenn Hoffman was on the World Series roster? Huh.

I think Greenwell got two plate appearances. I'm pretty sure he looked awful while stiking out in the 10th inning of Game Six while Don Baylor was just sitting there begging to be used.

Looking back, the fact that the Red Sox got within one strike (16 TIMES!) of winning a World Series while being managed by John McNamara is absolutely astounding.

 

[curly2]

Free agency was a little different back then as the initial years it was essentially a draft to get the right to negotiate with a free agent. I think the only impact free agent that they went after in the early years was Bill Campbell (Million Dollar Bill) and Zimmer mismanaged him so badly that his arm almost fell off.

You did something I've been trying to do since 1978. You forgot Mike Torrez.

 

[Archer1979]

You did something I've been trying to do since 1978. You forgot Mike Torrez.

I'm older, so that post was all memory (or lack there of). But of the two signings, Soup was the bigger one for me as it gave the Sox their first shut down closer since I had been following them ('75). A great Jeopardy answer would be "Zimmer, McNamara, Little"... Name three Red Sox managers that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Sox starters pitched 75% of the teams innings that year, compared to 57% this year. It’s remarkable to see how few pitchers a team used during a season, and even fewer still in the playoffs. Sure, they could have replaced Stewart at some point but whomever took his place probably wouldn’t have pitched in the WS either.

It’s interesting how the role of the SP has changed over time as relievers have gained in importance, and quantity. Seems like back then relievers had much lower K rates than starters, opposite of today: I’d love to see a limit on the # pitchers a team is allowed to carry (12?) to try to make the game a bit more interesting.

But yeah, McNamara, Little, and Zimmer were all pretty awful. I don’t love all of Cora’s decisions, but he’s got to be no worse than the #2 sox manager of my lifetime.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You did something I've been trying to do since 1978. You forgot Mike Torrez.

At one point in '78 Torrez was 15-6. Zimmer rode him into the ground.

EDIT: Torrez won 185 major league games with a K rate of 4.2. It really was a different game back then.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

There were 4 players on the 86 WS roster who didn’t play at all (Stewart, Lollar, Hoffman, and Sullivan). Armas, Stapleton, and Romero each had 1 PA, and Sambito pitched 2/3 IP. Pretty remarkable.

The pitchers the Sox used that year who did not make the roster were Seaver (injured), Jeff Sellers, Mike Brown, Rob Woodward, Mike Trujillo, and Wes Gardner. Oof.

Armas was hurt, IIRC, which is how Henderson even got into the lineup to hit his memorable HRs. Apropos of McNamara's butchering of his roster management, Armas, Romero and Sambito's lone WS appearances were in Game 7...it took him until then to realize they were around, I guess.

As for those pitchers you name, Gardner was also injured, and Brown and Trujillo were part of the package sent to Seattle for Owen and Henderson. So really, it was only Woodward and Sellers who were used in the regular season but were intentionally left out of the playoffs.

 

[BaseballJones]

Sox starters pitched 75% of the teams innings that year, compared to 57% this year. It’s remarkable to see how few pitchers a team used during a season, and even fewer still in the playoffs.

Most teams only carried 10 pitchers for the longest time, even using a 5-man rotation. You had 5 starters, 4 relievers, and a closer (a "fireman"), though the closer could normally go 2 innings or more.

Totally different world today.

 

[Bernie Carbohydrate]

Ya maroons. It is obviously Ralph Houk, May 23, 1984.

I was on a trip to Fenway with my confirmation class. I have no idea why the Blessed Virgin wanted us to go to a midweek game against Cleveland, but I assume that was one of the Seven Glorious Mysteries. All I knew was that in the great scrum around Sister Constance to get our tickets I waited until just after Ginny Mullen got hers, and just before Chuckie Condry got his. Ah, Ginny to my left, Chuckie to my right, and with any luck we'd see Clemens or maybe Oil Can get the win.

Mike Brown started. He'd ridden the Pawtucket Shuttle for a few years and finally stuck with the big club in '83 because the Sox needed a fifth starter, and he was the best of the worst options after Mark "The Bird" Fidrych proved not airworthy.

But Ginny! Squeezed in tight in those tiny bleacher seats, my arm could not but help to rest against hers -- that pretty freckled limb. Lace curtain Irish from the upscale side of the parish, dark brown eyes, auburn hair teased and piled as Simon LeBon would have wanted. She knew not man and surely knew not me, but the game was long, and what I lacked in good looks I made up for in charm. The new Spot Bilts would help. Ginny! Ginny Mullen!

Rich Gedman, calling an improbable combination of hanging curves and lethargic fastballs, somehow coaxed a solid outing from Mike Brown. Two runs in five innings was, graded on a curve, a perfect game for Mike Brown, he of 5.75 lifetime ERA. It was the sixth inning, Brown was gassed, but I was dealing.

Houk went to the bullpen. John Henry Johnson was not the worst choice. Kind of a Reagan-Era Darwinzon Hernandez. He got out of the inning.

Ginny leaned into me a bit. I swear it was true; her shoulder pressed into mine. On purpose. I had just done a whole bit about what if Mork from Ork was Catholic and did the Eucharist backward. She smiled and snuggled.

Meanwhile, the Sox came back -- Rice doubled and scored on a Tony Armas single in the bottom of the 6th (raise a glass for Tony Armas, a pioneer of the homer-or-strikeout revolution we are now "enjoying.")

Houk brought in Shag Crawford. Why not stay with Johnson and the use Crawford as a bridge to the 9th? Johnson had only thrown four pitches. Anyway, Shag held the line in the 7th, and the Sox scored three more --Dewey, Dewey, Dewey we were screaming.

Readers, Sox up 4-2, I got a boner. I am neither proud nor ashamed. I got a lot of boners in 1984, and they were activated by stimuli great and small. Dwight Evans. Loni Anderson. Joyce Kulhawik (both pre-and post-cancer). Even Sister Constance's confusing pendulousness. I hopped up, clasping my windbreaker to my waist, and announced I had to go to the bathroom.

I managed to make it to the john without anyone noticing my plight, and I rearranged my junk in a stall. Sure enough, the influence of the fetid troughs of Fenway softened me. I regretted wearing Sweats Bi-Ebe, those cotton pants with the red piping down the seam. Should have gone with something more durable. But I tied my windbreaker around my waist, bloused the sleeves over my fly, and headed back up.

I emerged into utter fucking chaos. Stanley on the mound, puffing like he'd run up a flight of stairs. Houk had pulled Crawford, so instead of Johnson in the 7th, Crawford in the 8th, and Stanley in the 9th, it was waste Johnson, Crawford in the 7th, and Stanley in the 8th.

I made it down our row, and over my shoulder Stanley is giving up hit after hit. Chuckie Condry had slid into my seat. I stood there. Ginny didn't look up. I slumped into Chuckie's empty seat. Stanley coughed up the lead. Sox lose, 5-4.

 

[BaseballJones]

As for K rate...even the incredible Roger Clemens averaged "only" 8.6 k/9 in his career. Scherzer is at 10.7 for his career.

Different game, different era.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ya maroons. It is obviously Ralph Houk, May 23, 1984.

I was on a trip to Fenway with my confirmation class. I have no idea why the Blessed Virgin wanted us to go to a midweek game against Cleveland, but I assume that was one of the Seven Glorious Mysteries. All I knew is that in the great scrum around Sister Constance to get our tickets I waited until just after Ginny Mullen got hers, and just before Chuckie Condry got his. Ah, Ginny to my left, Chuckie to my right, and with any luck we'd see Clemens or maybe Oil Can get the win.

Mike Brown started. He'd ridden the Pawtucket Shuttle for a few years and finally stuck with the big club in '83 because the Sox needed a fifth starter, and he was the best of the worst options after Mark "The Bird" Fidrych proved not airworthy.

But Ginny! Squeezed in tight in those tiny bleacher seats, my arm could not but help to rest against hers -- that pretty freckled limb. Lace curtain Irish from the upscale side of the parish, dark brown eyes, that auburn hair teased and piled as Simon LeBon would have wanted. She knew not man and surely knew not me, but the game was long, and what I lacked in good looks I made up for in charm. The new Spot Bilts would help. Ginny! Ginny Mullen!

Rich Gedman, calling an improbable combination of hanging curves and lethargic fastballs, somehow coaxed a solid outing from Mike Brown, and two runs in five innings was, graded on a curve, a perfect game for Mike Brown, he of 5.75 lifetime ERA. It was the sixth inning, Brown was gassed, but I was dealing.

Houk went to the bullpen. John Henry Johnson was not the worst choice. Kind of a Reagan-Era Darwinzon Hernandez. He got out of the inning.

Ginny leaned into me a bit. I swear it was true; her shoulder pressed into mine. On purpose. I had just done a whole bit about what if Mork from Ork was Catholic and had to do the Eucharist backward. She smiled and snuggled.

Meanwhile, the Sox came back -- Riced doubled and scored on a Tony Armas single in the bottom of the 6th (raise a glass for Tony Armas, a pioneer of the homer-or-strikeout revolution we are now "enjoying.")

Houk brings in Shag Crawford. Why not stay with Johnson and the use Crawford as a bridge to the 9th? Johnson had only thrown four pitches. Anyway, Shag holds the line in the 7th, and the Sox score three more --Dewey, Dewey, Dewey we are screaming.

Readers, Sox up 4-2, I got a boner. I am neither proud nor ashamed. I got a lot of boners in 1984, and they were activated by stimuli great and small. Dwight Evans. Loni Anderson. Joyce Kulhawik (both pre-and post-cancer) Even Sister Constance's confusing pendulousness. I hopped up, clasping by windbreaker to my waist, and announced I had to go the the bathroom.

I managed to make it to the john without anyone noticing my plight, and I rearranged my junk in a stall. Sure enough, the influence of the fetid toughs of Fenway softened me. I regretted wearing Sweats Bi-Ebe, those cotton pants with the red piping down the seam. Should have gone with something more durable. But I tied my windbreaker arouse my waist, bloused the sleeves over my fly, and headed back up.

I emerged into utter fucking chaos. Stanley on the mound, puffing like he'd run up a flight of stairs. Houk had pulled Crawford, so instead of Johnson in the 7th, Crawford in the 8th, and Stanley in the 9th, it was Waste Johnson, Crawford in the 7th, and Stanley in the 8th.

I made it down our row, and over my shoulder Stanley is giving up hit after hit. Chuckie Condry has slid into my seat. I stand there. Ginny doesn't look up. I slump into Chuckie's empty seat. Stanley coughs up the lead. Sox lose, 5-4.

I'm in tears. RIP Bernie's Boner.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'm in tears. RIP Bernie's Boner.

If this thread was good for anything, it was this

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Chuckie Condry is a pimp.

 

[Bergs]

Ya maroons. It is obviously Ralph Houk, May 23, 1984.

I was on a trip to Fenway with my confirmation class. I have no idea why the Blessed Virgin wanted us to go to a midweek game against Cleveland, but I assume that was one of the Seven Glorious Mysteries. All I knew is that in the great scrum around Sister Constance to get our tickets I waited until just after Ginny Mullen got hers, and just before Chuckie Condry got his. Ah, Ginny to my left, Chuckie to my right, and with any luck we'd see Clemens or maybe Oil Can get the win.

Mike Brown started. He'd ridden the Pawtucket Shuttle for a few years and finally stuck with the big club in '83 because the Sox needed a fifth starter, and he was the best of the worst options after Mark "The Bird" Fidrych proved not airworthy.

But Ginny! Squeezed in tight in those tiny bleacher seats, my arm could not but help to rest against hers -- that pretty freckled limb. Lace curtain Irish from the upscale side of the parish, dark brown eyes, that auburn hair teased and piled as Simon LeBon would have wanted. She knew not man and surely knew not me, but the game was long, and what I lacked in good looks I made up for in charm. The new Spot Bilts would help. Ginny! Ginny Mullen!

Rich Gedman, calling an improbable combination of hanging curves and lethargic fastballs, somehow coaxed a solid outing from Mike Brown, and two runs in five innings was, graded on a curve, a perfect game for Mike Brown, he of 5.75 lifetime ERA. It was the sixth inning, Brown was gassed, but I was dealing.

Houk went to the bullpen. John Henry Johnson was not the worst choice. Kind of a Reagan-Era Darwinzon Hernandez. He got out of the inning.

Ginny leaned into me a bit. I swear it was true; her shoulder pressed into mine. On purpose. I had just done a whole bit about what if Mork from Ork was Catholic and had to do the Eucharist backward. She smiled and snuggled.

Meanwhile, the Sox came back -- Riced doubled and scored on a Tony Armas single in the bottom of the 6th (raise a glass for Tony Armas, a pioneer of the homer-or-strikeout revolution we are now "enjoying.")

Houk brings in Shag Crawford. Why not stay with Johnson and the use Crawford as a bridge to the 9th? Johnson had only thrown four pitches. Anyway, Shag holds the line in the 7th, and the Sox score three more --Dewey, Dewey, Dewey we are screaming.

Readers, Sox up 4-2, I got a boner. I am neither proud nor ashamed. I got a lot of boners in 1984, and they were activated by stimuli great and small. Dwight Evans. Loni Anderson. Joyce Kulhawik (both pre-and post-cancer) Even Sister Constance's confusing pendulousness. I hopped up, clasping by windbreaker to my waist, and announced I had to go the the bathroom.

I managed to make it to the john without anyone noticing my plight, and I rearranged my junk in a stall. Sure enough, the influence of the fetid toughs of Fenway softened me. I regretted wearing Sweats Bi-Ebe, those cotton pants with the red piping down the seam. Should have gone with something more durable. But I tied my windbreaker arouse my waist, bloused the sleeves over my fly, and headed back up.

I emerged into utter fucking chaos. Stanley on the mound, puffing like he'd run up a flight of stairs. Houk had pulled Crawford, so instead of Johnson in the 7th, Crawford in the 8th, and Stanley in the 9th, it was Waste Johnson, Crawford in the 7th, and Stanley in the 8th.

I made it down our row, and over my shoulder Stanley is giving up hit after hit. Chuckie Condry has slid into my seat. I stand there. Ginny doesn't look up. I slump into Chuckie's empty seat. Stanley coughs up the lead. Sox lose, 5-4.

This is fantastic work.

 

[joe dokes]

Ya maroons. It is obviously Ralph Houk, May 23, 1984.

I was on a trip to Fenway with my confirmation class. I have no idea why the Blessed Virgin wanted us to go to a midweek game against Cleveland, but I assume that was one of the Seven Glorious Mysteries. All I knew is that in the great scrum around Sister Constance to get our tickets I waited until just after Ginny Mullen got hers, and just before Chuckie Condry got his. Ah, Ginny to my left, Chuckie to my right, and with any luck we'd see Clemens or maybe Oil Can get the win.

Mike Brown started. He'd ridden the Pawtucket Shuttle for a few years and finally stuck with the big club in '83 because the Sox needed a fifth starter, and he was the best of the worst options after Mark "The Bird" Fidrych proved not airworthy.

But Ginny! Squeezed in tight in those tiny bleacher seats, my arm could not but help to rest against hers -- that pretty freckled limb. Lace curtain Irish from the upscale side of the parish, dark brown eyes, that auburn hair teased and piled as Simon LeBon would have wanted. She knew not man and surely knew not me, but the game was long, and what I lacked in good looks I made up for in charm. The new Spot Bilts would help. Ginny! Ginny Mullen!

Rich Gedman, calling an improbable combination of hanging curves and lethargic fastballs, somehow coaxed a solid outing from Mike Brown, and two runs in five innings was, graded on a curve, a perfect game for Mike Brown, he of 5.75 lifetime ERA. It was the sixth inning, Brown was gassed, but I was dealing.

Houk went to the bullpen. John Henry Johnson was not the worst choice. Kind of a Reagan-Era Darwinzon Hernandez. He got out of the inning.

Ginny leaned into me a bit. I swear it was true; her shoulder pressed into mine. On purpose. I had just done a whole bit about what if Mork from Ork was Catholic and had to do the Eucharist backward. She smiled and snuggled.

Meanwhile, the Sox came back -- Riced doubled and scored on a Tony Armas single in the bottom of the 6th (raise a glass for Tony Armas, a pioneer of the homer-or-strikeout revolution we are now "enjoying.")

Houk brings in Shag Crawford. Why not stay with Johnson and the use Crawford as a bridge to the 9th? Johnson had only thrown four pitches. Anyway, Shag holds the line in the 7th, and the Sox score three more --Dewey, Dewey, Dewey we are screaming.

Readers, Sox up 4-2, I got a boner. I am neither proud nor ashamed. I got a lot of boners in 1984, and they were activated by stimuli great and small. Dwight Evans. Loni Anderson. Joyce Kulhawik (both pre-and post-cancer). Even Sister Constance's confusing pendulousness. I hopped up, clasping my windbreaker to my waist, and announced I had to go the the bathroom.

I managed to make it to the john without anyone noticing my plight, and I rearranged my junk in a stall. Sure enough, the influence of the fetid toughs of Fenway softened me. I regretted wearing Sweats Bi-Ebe, those cotton pants with the red piping down the seam. Should have gone with something more durable. But I tied my windbreaker around my waist, bloused the sleeves over my fly, and headed back up.

I emerged into utter fucking chaos. Stanley on the mound, puffing like he'd run up a flight of stairs. Houk had pulled Crawford, so instead of Johnson in the 7th, Crawford in the 8th, and Stanley in the 9th, it was Waste Johnson, Crawford in the 7th, and Stanley in the 8th.

I made it down our row, and over my shoulder Stanley is giving up hit after hit. Chuckie Condry has slid into my seat. I stand there. Ginny doesn't look up. I slump into Chuckie's empty seat. Stanley coughs up the lead. Sox lose, 5-4.

I thought *I* was having a bad day. The only way for this to end properly is for Chuckie Condry to be skulled by a Roy Hobbs homer.

 

[MtPleasant Paul]

This is fantastic work.

It is no surprise that you would think so. The post was heretical, prurient and scatological. Absorbing reading though.

 

[jmcc5400]

"Reagan-Era Darwinzon Hernandez"

Hall of Fame post.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Christ, in 83 the Sox used 12 pitchers all year and one of them (Nipper) only appeared in 3 games. Stanley’s 145 innings out of the pen are 4-6 less than Pivetta and Rodriguez have thrown this year.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Christ, in 83 the Sox used 12 pitchers all year and one of them (Nipper) only appeared in 3 games. Stanley’s 145 innings out of the pen are 4-6 less than Pivetta and Rodriguez have thrown this year.

Stanley threw 168 IP the year before. No starts for him in either year, 140 and 153 ERA+ for those years. 20 wins in relief and 47 saves in '82-'83. He was really good.

 

[Bergs]

It is no surprise that you would think so. The post was heretical, prurient and scatological. Absorbing reading though.

 

[E5 Yaz]

The post was heretical, prurient and scatological.

It was not, however, psychoneuroligusitical

 

[Bergs]

It was not, however, psychoneuroligusitical

All praises to Allah.

 

[aminahyaquin]

I chose the Daryll Johnson decision to play the rookie in the 9th--but it has been my opinion that Bill Lee should not have started the 7th.

 

[Archer1979]

Has this thread been a rabbit hole for anyone else? BTW Bernie... that was great!

'75 was a tough one. It's one where Johnson didn't have too many options left besides going to another starter (Mayday Malone was injured and unavailable). I think Tiant may have been sitting in the bullpen for Game Seven, but he had given up six runs in Game 6 and was obviously gassed. Rick Wise had pitched an inning in Game Six as well. In a tie ballgame, there wasn't much besides Reggie Cleveland and he might have been needed if the game went to extra innings.

Switching to '86, one other little dagger left over from that, and I noticed this when the Mets tied up Game Six, did the Mets even have anyone warmed up in the bullpen for the next inning? It's been a big what if for me, but I can't seem to find anything that ever stated definitively.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Switching to '86, one other little dagger left over from that, and I noticed this when the Mets tied up Game Six, did the Mets even have anyone warmed up in the bullpen for the next inning? It's been a big what if for me, but I can't seem to find anything that ever stated definitively.

They'd pinch hit for Aguilera (Mitchell) so presumably somebody was at least up and getting loose, if not actually warming up (at a guess, Orosco). If not before than certainly after Mitchell scored on the passed ball wild pitch.

 

[jmcc5400]

Burton also seems defensible because the Reds were sending up Griffey-Geronimo-Pitcher [Driessen], so Burton was lined up to face three lefties, then Rose (who was slightly worse as a RHH) and another lefty in Morgan. It's not like Morgan's game winning hit was scalded.

For that matter, the Mets' hits in the 10th weren't really rockets either (although Hernandez's out was hit pretty well). I loathed John McNamara, but just look at the absolute dreck in the bullpen and it's hard to blame him for sticking with Schiraldi too long. Stanley? Post All Star break, hitters were .361/.399/.489 against him. Stewart? .303/.421/.507. Crawford? .316/.366/.487. Sambito? .338/.417/.486. Lollar? .469/.526/.735.

 

[jmcc5400]

They'd pinch hit for Aguilera (Mitchell) so presumably somebody was at least up and getting loose, if not actually warming up (at a guess, Orosco). If not before than certainly after Mitchell scored on the passed ball wild pitch.

They'd already used Orosco (on Buckner, while Baylor rotted on the bench). They had McDowell and Sisk, however.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

They'd already used Orosco (on Buckner, while Baylor rotted on the bench). They had McDowell and Sisk, however.

You're right, Orosco had pitched. So had McDowell, though.

Let me change my guess to Sid Fernandez.

 

[jmcc5400]

You're right, Orosco had pitched. So had McDowell, though.

Let me change my guess to Sid Fernandez.

How could I have forgotten that? Sid pitched 4 innings in Game 5. Maybe he was available under the usage practices of the time.

 

[The Filthy One]

This comes down to outcomes. I remember watching Game 4 of the 2018 ALCS furious with Cora for leaving in Kimbrel to face Bregman. Kimbrel had been all over the place, was working on his second full inning in that game, and had nowhere to put Bregman, the Astros hitter I feared the most. In fact, I was begging him to put in David Price to pitch to Tony Kemp in the previous at-bat. Kimbrel walks Kemp, then gives up a screaming line drive to Bregman that Benintendi makes a great catch on to end the game. If that gets past Benintendi, I feel like that decision is on this list. But it didn't. Still doesn't make it the right call in my mind.

 

[Archer1979]

You're right, Orosco had pitched. So had McDowell, though.

Let me change my guess to Sid Fernandez.

But did Johnson make the call to the bullpen to warm him up. I distinctly remember seeing a shot of no action in the Mets BP while the Mets were rallying.

This comes down to outcomes.

Absolutely. The reason I'm asking about if the Mets had anyone warming in the BP was, if they got Wilson out; and they had no one warmed up; that could have been one of the biggest managing blunders in WS history, especially if the Sox held on to win. Davey Johnson didn't necessarily out-manage McNamara so much as he was lucky that McNamara's blunder happened first.