World Series Game 3: Houston, we have a series

bankshot1

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Not to minimize stupidity or a racist gesture, or even a cultural chasm, but why isn't an apology and perhaps a fine earmarked for an appropriate organization/charity, suffiicient?

MO a suspension would unfairly penalize a team and fans of the game for a largely unrelated off-field act of ignorance.
 

BigSoxFan

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Not to minimize stupidity or a racist gesture, or even a cultural chasm, but why isn't an apology and perhaps a fine earmarked for an appropriate organization/charity, suffiicient?

MO a suspension would unfairly penalize a team and fans of the game for a largely unrelated off-field act of ignorance.
Because an apology and fine is not a strong enough deterrent. My wife is Japanese and is pretty fired up about it.
 

Dogman2

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Cools. We get where E5 stands and that's with the racists. Awesome take, man!
I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. None. This is like a GoGoGadget reach to something that is completely not there. Be better than this. Be way better than this.

Thanks.
 

CR67dream

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Cools. We get where E5 stands and that's with the racists. Awesome take, man!
Are you kidding me with this? You need to calm down a bit, there is nothing in what E5 wrote that is in any way close to what you are asserting. He simply said that that there are probably racists on every team, meaning that any team you root for probably has a guy or two of questionable character/ with offensive views. And you know what, he's probably right.
I mean, do you retroactively wish that the Sox didn't win in 2004 and 2007 because of what we learned about Schilling? We root for all of these spoiled grown men at our own peril.
What you did, accusing a long-time community member of being a racist based on what he wrote is unacceptable. There is just no evidence to back up such a serious claim. I'm inclined to call this a warning based upon your long and mostly positive tenure here, but know that there will be a zero tolerance for this kind of thing going forward. And if another Dope feels more is needed, I'm fine with that, too.
This has been a great series so far, the game threads not so much. Let's all try to raise our game a bit.
 

BigSoxFan

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Because I dislike when championships are affected by suspensions if they're not absolutely necessary. I disliked it when it was Amare Stoudemire getting off the bench against the Spurs, I disliked it when it was Draymond Green against the Cavs and I would dislike this. Suspend Gurriel for all of April if that needs to be done, but not now. FWIW, my wife is Japanese, from Tokyo, not that that really matters.

Also putting on my Dope hat for a second, you guys need to stop being dicks ASAP or Gurriel isn't going to be the only one suspended. The comment to E5 above by riboflav was completely over the line.
I guess I would argue that losing Gurriel for 1 game isn’t nearly as impactful as Stoudemire or Draymond. The drop off from 2007 Amare/2016 Green to their replacements and Yuli/Beltran or whoever is much less severe. I think 1 game is appropriate and if the Astros end up losing the series, I don’t think it would have anything to do with this suspension.

I give Darvish a lot of credit for taking the high road here.
 

Boston Brawler

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Not to minimize stupidity or a racist gesture, or even a cultural chasm, but why isn't an apology and perhaps a fine earmarked for an appropriate organization/charity, suffiicient?

MO a suspension would unfairly penalize a team and fans of the game for a largely unrelated off-field act of ignorance.
But it wasn't off field. It was during the game and on national (and international) tv, after a huge moment in the game for him. He has to be pretty dumb to think what he is doing won't go unnoticed.
 

AimingForYoko

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I'd suspend him just for that incredibly weak "apology"

"I was commenting to my family that I didn't have any luck against Japanese pitchers here in the United States."

He truly couldn't come up with anything better than that? Really?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I really liked David Stern's reaction after the outrage over the Stoudamire suspension became a thing. I can't remember what it was, but it was basically, did you think we were kidding about leaving the bench? Do you understand now?

I'd like to see that here. I get the disparity of this kind of thing. That a suspension in the World Series really is dramatic and maybe a much bigger punishment than equivalent offenses have received in the past during the regular season. But so what? Don't do racist stuff and you don't have to worry about it.

The appeal thing probably makes it moot. But I'd like to see the league take a stand. Let him appeal.

I think it's interesting to contemplate how this might be different if something similar was directed toward a black or Latino player. It's probably, though, an issue I'm too close to. I probably lack the ability to see it rationally. (My daughter is a Chinese.)
 

bankshot1

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Because an apology and fine is not a strong enough deterrent. My wife is Japanese and is pretty fired up about it.
That would be your and your wife's opinion.

How many pounds of flesh would be enough of a deterrent to one man's momentary and (to him) private act of ignorance?

Why is not an apology/fine with a warning from MLB this behavior will not be tolerated in the future, sufficient?
 

IHateDaveKerpen

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The Astros are my "second team" after the Sox. I know some people find that sort of shit stupid, but whatever - I was born in Houston, lived there until I was nine, then moved to Boston. I've lived back in Texas for the last seven years. This whole arrangement was way easier when the 'Stros were in the NL.

Fuck Gurriel. He's a dumbass who made an ignorant gesture. If MLB chooses to suspend him - which they definitely should - I'm more than fine with it.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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This is an interesting read from a reporter at the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers-hernandez-20171027-story.html

Makes the point that ethnic stereotyping and racial slurs are less problematic in Latin cultures. I can't say I have any way to evaluate that.

However, race is a very different thing in the US than elsewhere, for sure. We have weaponized it (I highly recommend the Scene on Radio podcast series Seeing White for the back story on that).

We can never know what's in a player's heart, or what intent is. When he says he didn't mean to be offensive, I think he means he didn't mean to personally hurt Darvish. Whether that matters or not, I dunno.

However, I agree there is precedent here and since MLB is, indeed, in the US, especially, this must be taken seriously and a suspension is warranted.

Terrible to have this mar what is so far a great series. But perhaps we can all learn from Darvish's graciousness.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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That would be your and your wife's opinion.

How many pounds of flesh would be enough of a deterrent to one man's momentary and (to him) private act of ignorance?

Why is not an apology/fine with a warning from MLB this behavior will not be tolerated in the future, sufficient?
That's like asking whether the punishment for X crime should be a misdemeanor or a felony. Any one person's opinion is going to depend on how serious he or she views the offense of X. I mean the answer is that it bothers bigsox more than it bothers you. What value is there in that debate? It's an opinion that is not likely to change on either side.
 

bankshot1

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But it wasn't off field. It was during the game and on national (and international) tv, after a huge moment in the game for him. He has to be pretty dumb to think what he is doing won't go unnoticed.
I assume he was sitting in the dug-out talking with a teammate in what he assumed was a private conversation. That his ignorance was caught on camera is just proof of his level of dumbness".
 

bankshot1

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That's like asking whether the punishment for X crime should be a misdemeanor or a felony. Any one person's opinion is going to depend on how serious he or she views the offense of X. I mean the answer is that it bothers bigsox more than it bothers you. What value is there in that debate? It's an opinion that is not likely to change on either side.
We have established the value of debate, and we disagreed.

NBD,
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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We have established the value of debate, and we disagreed.

NBD,
Ok, that's fair. What I'm asking though is how can the question you asked really be answered? How many pounds of flesh? What's an answer that can really be given to that question that advances anyone's understanding of the other's position in any meaningful way? 4.2 pounds of flesh? .7?

The only real answer that can be given to a largely rhetorical question like that is, "probably more than you would like to see". It is, to me, a way of rhetorically stating an opinion as a question (which is fine) while putting the burden on the other in a way that makes it very hard for the other to engage.
 

bankshot1

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Ok, that's fair. What I'm asking though is how can the question you asked really be answered? How many pounds of flesh? What's an answer that can really be given to that question that advances anyone's understanding of the other's position in any meaningful way? 4.2 pounds of flesh? .7?

The only real answer that can be given to a largely rhetorical question like that is, "probably more than you would like to see". It is, to me, a way of rhetorically stating an opinion as a question (which is fine) while putting the burden on the other in a way that makes it very hard for the other to engage.
I asked why an apology/fine would not be sufficient and was told that it would not be a deterrent.

So i asked the obvious follow-up question.

Today's game?

The rest the series?

Or a suspension next year, so as not to unduly impact the WS?

Whats a fair and just deterrent to ignorance?

I don't know, but i believe an apology and fine is a reasonable approach.

Others clearly disagree..
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I read it as "how much is enough for you and your wife"?

The internet is difficult for tone and meaning sometimes. Sorry for the diversion and overly sensitive reading. Carry on.
 

BigSoxFan

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I asked why an apology/fine would not be sufficient and was told that it would not be a deterrent.

So i asked the obvious follow-up question.

Today's game?

The rest the series?

Or a suspension next year, so as not to unduly impact the WS?

Whats a fair and just deterrent to ignorance?

I don't know, but i believe an apology and fine is a reasonable approach.

Others clearly disagree..
I stated that I think 1 game is sufficient. And the reason it may bother me more than you is that kids have made similar gestures to my half-Japanese son at school and I’ve had to explain it. And then my son sees it on tv and it re-opens the wound for him. It was completely unacceptable and the Japanese are a huge part of the baseball community.

I don’t think any of us know if this is a “momentary” act of ignorance or not.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I asked why an apology/fine would not be sufficient and was told that it would not be a deterrent.

So i asked the obvious follow-up question.

Today's game?

The rest the series?

Or a suspension next year, so as not to unduly impact the WS?

Whats a fair and just deterrent to ignorance?

I don't know, but i believe an apology and fine is a reasonable approach.

Others clearly disagree..
My problem with a fine is that it's been universally acknowledged that fines aren't really a punishment. Going back to 2009, the largest non-suspension fine (where the suspension leads to loss of contract money) is $15,000. (According to this web site that I found) I am sure there is something in the CBA that caps the amount that a player can be fined, but I can't find it.

You have to make this behavior unacceptable and make it hurt when human decency is violated.

I ask before and I'll ask again. What type of slur/racist action deserves a WS suspension?
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/fines-suspensions/
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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My problem with a fine is that it's been universally acknowledged that fines aren't really a punishment. Going back to 2009, the largest non-suspension fine (where the suspension leads to loss of contract money) is $15,000. (According to this web site that I found) I am sure there is something in the CBA that caps the amount that a player can be fined, but I can't find it.

You have to make this behavior unacceptable and make it hurt when human decency is violated.

I ask before and I'll ask again. What type of slur/racist action deserves a WS suspension?
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/fines-suspensions/
To borrow from soccer, if he'd made an ape gesture or threw a banana at a black pitcher, one suspects the calls for suspension would be greater. Why this is different is a complicated question.

As a part of a multi-racial Asian family it's one I wonder about. When you see first hand the "you're other" effect of the slant eyed gesture it affects you, yet at the same time when it comes to stereotypes of Indians (from Asia, not Native Americans) so much more seems fair game (including by me, if I'm honest). It's complicated.
 

DourDoerr

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It may be an apple to oranges comparison, but there is another precedence for starting a post season earned suspension the next season. The A's Bert Campaneris earned a late start for the "73 season for throwing his bat at Lerrin LaGrow of the Tigers in the "72 ALCS after getting hit by a pitch. I tried to post a video of the bat toss, I hope it works. In any case Gurriel desereves whatever he gets.
Wow thanks for that. I'd read about this incident but had never seen it. As always, video is stronger than words on the page. I thought the bat toss was just thrown and then perhaps died at LaGrow's feet. That bat flies fast right at LaGrow's head and past the mound and could have done serious damage, perhaps fatal if it hits the right spot. It'd have an enormous impact on that series, but count me as surprised the suspension didn't start immediately. That kind of anger and violence - and the potential response it might invite - should be sanctioned immediately for the optics AND to tamp down tempers. Having Campy out there is a middle finger to the Tigers.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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This is a very interesting article and everyone should read it.

p.s. The game is about to play again on mlbn, for anyone like me, who may have fallen asleep for part of it. (I wasn't at all bored, just bone-tired.)
I guess it's interesting? He's a highly public member of a multi-billion dollar industry and did that on national television in the US. He's not in Cuba and he didn't do that on some Cuba only broadcast. People get bent out of shape over everything but MLB can't let something like that slide during it's premier event.
 

DourDoerr

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To borrow from soccer, if he'd made an ape gesture or threw a banana at a black pitcher, one suspects the calls for suspension would be greater. Why this is different is a complicated question.
I wonder then if the best answer would be a simple one. ANY gesture that singles out a race is met with an immediate fine and suspension. I think you're right to suspect that a negative gesture towards an African American would be met immediately with more urgency and perhaps it has something to do with MLB's perception of how that community might respond vs. how the Asian community might respond. Does the Asian community have the equivalent of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson?

Otherwise, if you're not coming down with the same penalties all around, you're playing favorites which - as others acknowledge, is a very slippery hill. In today's climate, I wouldn't be surprised to hear a defense based on "locker room talk."
 

drleather2001

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Derogatory remarks about Race, religion, nationality, and sexual orientation should be punished. And they generally are. I think what makes Gurriel’s incident trickier (although it doesn’t excuse it) is that it was not intended to be malicious. I do think there is a difference between what he did and say, a batter screaming “f—ot” at a pitcher.

I think a suspension of some games next season is fair, maybe if he agrees not to appeal it and make a formal apology on camera before tonight’s game.
 

BigSoxFan

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If Darvish can forgive Gurriel for the insult, why shouldn’t everyone else?
Because Yu Darvish doesn’t speak for everyone who may have been offended. I’m glad he was able to rise above - quite frankly, it’s simply part of his cultural upbringing.

To me, a fine and an apology isn’t sufficient but I don’t begrudge people who feel differently. If there’s some sort of middle ground on missing a WS game and a fine/apology, I’m all for it.
 

bankshot1

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I stated that I think 1 game is sufficient. And the reason it may bother me more than you is that kids have made similar gestures to my half-Japanese son at school and I’ve had to explain it. And then my son sees it on tv and it re-opens the wound for him. It was completely unacceptable and the Japanese are a huge part of the baseball community.

I don’t think any of us know if this is a “momentary” act of ignorance or not.
I'm sorry for your and your son's pain. I was subject to prejudice almost 60 years ago for my faith, so I have some first hand experience with the topic.Kids can be nasty pricks..

In the absence of other damning evidence I'd give Gurriel the benefit of the doubt for his ignorance or cultural cluelessness..IMO it was a private moment of insensitivity and immaturity. .
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I wonder then if the best answer would be a simple one. ANY gesture that singles out a race is met with an immediate fine and suspension. I think you're right to suspect that a negative gesture towards an African American would be met immediately with more urgency and perhaps it has something to do with MLB's perception of how that community might respond vs. how the Asian community might respond. Does the Asian community have the equivalent of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson?

Otherwise, if you're not coming down with the same penalties all around, you're playing favorites which - as others acknowledge, is a very slippery hill. In today's climate, I wouldn't be surprised to hear a defense based on "locker room talk."
Derogatory remarks about Race, religion, nationality, and sexual orientation should be punished. And they generally are. I think what makes Gurriel’s incident trickier (although it doesn’t excuse it) is that it was not intended to be malicious. I do think there is a difference between what he did and say, a batter screaming “f—ot” at a pitcher.

I think a suspension of some games next season is fair, maybe if he agrees not to appeal it and make a formal apology on camera before tonight’s game.
So, my daughter was at the doctor and a Chinese physician's assistant comes in and all of the sudden they start making slant eyes to each other and talking in exaggerated Chinese stereotypes and laughing hysterically. I interpreted this as, "fuck the racists, I got your back, sister." Or something. I was out to dinner with college buddies who love each other and when one asked about pasta not being on the menu, another said, "you fucking dago," to which the other responded, "like you didn't look for gefilte fish."

We intuitively understand that racism is what's in your heart and mind, and so punishing everyone based solely on the act or the word strikes us -- particularly as Americans with our individual rights propensity -- as potentially problematic. Maybe the answer is simple: We need to draw bright lines, and so, this will never be tolerated and act like fucking grown ups when you're wearing the uniform whatever your intent.

But the reason I said it was complicated is that we do wonder about motivation and intent and how the target perceives things. Throwing a banana at a black player as he takes a corner kick at a soccer game is very hard to understand as non-racist. I would have thought that slant eyes and the Spanish equivalent of "chink" would have been viewed the same. That certainly was my reaction last night and I was furious. But am I sure? I'm not. The L.A. Times article and Darvish's response at least make me want to try to have some sort of paradigm to understand it better. Is there some aspect of my daughter's visit to the doctor or my crude fraternity brother dinner happening here? It's complicated. And when I look into my own heart, I admit that I am less viscerally reactive to certain types of stereotyping than others and I have to think about it. And more tolerant at times. This could be racism. This could be something else. I don't know. If I can't even figure it out for myself, it's hard to figure it out for others.

I want to say about Darvish: "He doesn't speak for all of us." But it's more complicated than that.
 

EvilEmpire

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Seems like a small suspension would be appropriate. Given the way MLB processes work, an appeal should push it past the series. I'm fine with established practices. If a suspension is given, I don't think MLB should do anything to accelerate the process to make the penalty impact the series.

I'd just like to see normal discipline procedures play out and not have Manfred go full Goodell. I very much doubt he will.
 

mauidano

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I'd suspend him just for that incredibly weak "apology"

"I was commenting to my family that I didn't have any luck against Japanese pitchers here in the United States."

He truly couldn't come up with anything better than that? Really?
This is spot on. I see no “remorse”. Sit him a WS game and fine him. There have to be ramifications now. Not at the start of the 2018 season. My wife is Asian, so it hits closer to home as well. This as mentioned above is MLB’s high profile moment. If it had been a N word or a gay slur, it would be a big deal. So should this.
 

Marciano490

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So, my daughter was at the doctor and a Chinese physician's assistant comes in and all of the sudden they start making slant eyes to each other and talking in exaggerated Chinese stereotypes and laughing hysterically. I interpreted this as, "fuck the racists, I got your back, sister." Or something. I was out to dinner with college buddies who love each other and when one asked about pasta not being on the menu, another said, "you fucking dago," to which the other responded, "like you didn't look for gefilte fish."

We intuitively understand that racism is what's in your heart and mind, and so punishing everyone based solely on the act or the word strikes us -- particularly as Americans with our individual rights propensity -- as potentially problematic. Maybe the answer is simple: We need to draw bright lines, and so, this will never be tolerated and act like fucking grown ups when you're wearing the uniform whatever your intent.

But the reason I said it was complicated is that we do wonder about motivation and intent and how the target perceives things. Throwing a banana at a black player as he takes a corner kick at a soccer game is very hard to understand as non-racist. I would have thought that slant eyes and the Spanish equivalent of "chink" would have been viewed the same. That certainly was my reaction last night and I was furious. But am I sure? I'm not. The L.A. Times article and Darvish's response at least make me want to try to have some sort of paradigm to understand it better. Is there some aspect of my daughter's visit to the doctor or my crude fraternity brother dinner happening here? It's complicated. And when I look into my own heart, I admit that I am less viscerally reactive to certain types of stereotyping than others and I have to think about it. And more tolerant at times. This could be racism. This could be something else. I don't know. If I can't even figure it out for myself, it's hard to figure it out for others.

I want to say about Darvish: "He doesn't speak for all of us." But it's more complicated than that.
As someone pointed out, Latin culture is very different. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often, frankly. And I don't mean that as a cultural judgment.
 

curly2

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Why is not an apology/fine with a warning from MLB this behavior will not be tolerated in the future, sufficient?
I would be fine with a SINCERE apology, along with a fine and warning. I don't speak Spanish, so I can't comment specifically on Gurriel's postgame comments, since we're getting them through an interpreter, and translations aren't always precise, but so many times when people do something stupid, the "apology" isn't actually an apology.

"I'm sorry I said it" is an apology. "I apologize for what I said" is an apology. "I'm sorry if people were offended" is NOT an apology. It's a lame attempt to cover your ass.

I'd bet every nickel I have in the bank that the Astros, who don't want him suspended, instructed Gurriel to come out and appear contrite. Whether he actually IS contrite, who knows?
 

The Needler

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This is spot on. I see no “remorse”. Sit him a WS game and fine him. There have to be ramifications now. Not at the start of the 2018 season. My wife is Asian, so it hits closer to home as well. This as mentioned above is MLB’s high profile moment. If it had been a N word or a gay slur, it would be a big deal. So should this.
It is a big deal. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be suspended. Kobe Bryant called a referee a "fucking f-g--t" on live TV and was fined, not suspended. And there was no doubt about his malicious intent there.
 

dhappy42

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I would be fine with a SINCERE apology, along with a fine and warning. I don't speak Spanish, so I can't comment specifically on Gurriel's postgame comments, since we're getting them through an interpreter, and translations aren't always precise, but so many times when people do something stupid, the "apology" isn't actually an apology.

"I'm sorry I said it" is an apology. "I apologize for what I said" is an apology. "I'm sorry if people were offended" is NOT an apology. It's a lame attempt to cover your ass.

I'd bet every nickel I have in the bank that the Astros, who don't want him suspended, instructed Gurriel to come out and appear contrite. Whether he actually IS contrite, who knows?
I agree. I’ll defer to native Spanish speakers re translation and sincerity. I’m fine with whatever the called-for suspension is too, but it should be served during next year’s regular season. My main point is that I don’t see much sense in being more upset about this than Darvish is, but then I’m not Asian...
 

jon abbey

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Who starts the game 4 thread? I don't know the rules for non-Sox threads.
There are only rules for Sox and Yankee threads, postseason threads with neither of those teams involved, anyone can start the threads whenever.
 

Al Zarilla

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"I'm sorry I said it" is an apology. "I apologize for what I said" is an apology. "I'm sorry if people were offended" is NOT an apology. It's a lame attempt to cover your ass.
He didn’t even say the last one, he said something like it was not his intent to insult anyone. That’s another whole level down. Tough shit might be just two more levels down from what he said.

I was thinking, in this country we take racial slurs extremely seriously, but it wasn’t always this way. Think Archie Bunker in the 70s. Maybe in other countries it’s not considered that big of a deal still? I don’t know.