Why Not JBJ?

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
They seem to like De Aza.  Maybe they want him to be part of the OF mix in 2016, in which case relegating him to the bench now isn't a smart move.  I'm assuming the Red Sox aren't gonig to spend money on the OF in the off-season.  Instead, the Red Sox's resources will probably go toward the pitching staff.  If that is the case, we might be looking at a 2016 OF of De Aza (LF), Betts (CF), Bradley Jr. (RF), with Runny Nose Castillo starting against lefties.  Of course, I'm working on the assumption that the Red Sox will move Hanley to 1b.
 
On the other hand, if De Aza isn't in the Red Sox's 2016 plans, it makes no sense to play him at this stage of the season.  If De Aza isn't in the Red Sox's 2016 plans, and the organization continues to play him, they are truly lost and in trouble.

 
De Aza is a free agent at the end of the year.  There's no reason for them to plan on him being a part of the 2016 outfield situation unless they're working out a contract extension with him right now.
 
And to the bolded...really?  Grow up.

 

[semsox]

The question we need to start asking ourselves is what is the acceptable level of offense to justify putting the elite defense on the field? Are we talking about a 240/300/350 slash line. More? Less? What amount of offense are you willing to sacrifice to get the D?

And when we arrive at that answer, does he, through scouting or stats, project to get there? If the answer is no, move him.

 
I think it's funny that we essentially have a mirror case with Hanley in LF. He's been a net-negative to the Sox as a whole by WAR this year (-0.5 bWAR, -1.0 fWAR) while hitting roughly average for his position. Even with his atrocious offense last year, Bradley was still a net-positive by WAR (0.7 bWAR, 0.5 fWAR), and I think that's one of the primary reasons that people want to give him as much rope as possible. Because if he manages to hit even a little bit, he's likely to be a very good player. 
 
I think The Gray Eagle hits on another point, which has been his development has not been handled as carefully as I think we're used to with some players. He played nearly 40 games to start 2013 based on a hot spring training without a single AAA AB. He was sent down after being obviously overmatched, and it looks like it took basically all of last year (both at AAA and MLB) to make some adjustments this year (cutting his K-rate at AAA). While the early results haven't been great, he should get more playing time this year because A) the upside of him ever actually hitting are enormous and B) if he never learns to hit, it's not like we're going anywhere the remainder of this season anyway. 

 

[FanSinceBoggs]

De Aza is a free agent at the end of the year.
 

 
I realize he is a free agent.  In case you never heard, baseball teams sometimes resign their free agents.  If the Red Sox like him, and want him back, they can easily make it happen -- he won't be overly expensive to retain.

 

[Al Zarilla]

In Beyond The Sixth Game, Gammons reviews the plight of Dwight Evans.  July 3, 1980 was his true date of finally learning how to hit, nearly 8 years from the day he first came up.  It takes time for some guys.  This is not to suggest that JBJ should get that amount of time, nor does it suggest that he now is the same hitter that Dewey was in the 1970s, but if Evans was as Gammons suggested in his book "an offensive defensive" outfielder that it appears JBJ now is, someone will give him the time to develop and I hope it is the Red Sox.

Evans didn't become an elite hitter until his tenth year in the majors (first year was a cup of coffee) but he never OPS'd lower than .703 and that was his second year with only 328 PAs. In other words, he was never anywhere near a pathetic hitter (sorry, JBJ) although he was somewhat of a tale of two careers guy. 
 
Ed., should read the whole thread before posting (Moondog said this already).

 

[moondog80]

 
I realize he is a free agent.  In case you never heard, baseball teams sometimes resign their free agents.  If the Red Sox like him, and want him back, they can easily make it happen -- he won't be overly expensive to retain.

 
 
Define "overly expensive".   I think the floor is the 12 mil/2 year deal David Murphy signed with Cleveland two years ago.  Likely more than that.  

 

[JimD]

If Ben is spending any time at all working on an extension right now for a fringe player like de Aza, then he deserves to be fired. 

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

There's very clearly a mental component going on here - but it's not so easy to say it's a "change of scenery" situation. 
 
JBJ's AAA stats were excellent this season, and his approach has been better so far in MLB. The results aren't there. His game log is bizarre and broken up into three SSS segments:
 
5/10 - 5/19: 3 GS, 13 PA, 0 H, 0 HR, 2 BB, 4 K, .000/.154/.000 line with .000 BABIP, 15.4% BB rate, 30.8% K rate
6/25 - 7/2: 6 GS, 22 PA, 4 H, 1 HR, 2 BB, 6 K, .200/..273/.350 line with .231 BABIP, 9.1% BB rate, 27.3% K rate
7/29 - 8/5: 7 GS, 24 PA, 1 H, 0 HR, 3 BB, 5 K, .050/.208/.050 line with .067 BABIP, 12.5% BB rate, 20.8% K rate
 
If his MLB peripherals stabilize somewhere between the two lines from June-August, then JBJ should be a relatively productive player as long as his BABIP normalizes and his defense remains superb. But there's no way to know whether this "new and improved" hitting approach (which appears to be real, when his 2014 and 2015 AAA lines are compared) will actually translate into enough consistent hard contact to sustain a normalized BABIP, until he's given more than 10 game stretches of regular playing time in which to show it.
 
I was reading Pedro's book over the weekend, and one of the most striking aspects of that book is how poorly Pedro worked with Joe Kerrigan. Now, by the time Pedro started working with Kerrigan, he was the highest-paid pitcher in baseball and a NL Cy Young winner. However, it reminded me that both the players and the coaches are people. People with egos.
 
I suspect JBJ developed a problem with the MLB coaching staff during last season's black hole of suck.  I also suspect that the Sox coaching staff will be "new and improved" in the offseason.  So whether or not JBJ is given a fair shake in the remainder of 2015, I hope he's not dealt for a bag of balls this offseason.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Yes, it would be such a shame if our Gold Glove caliber prospect figures out how to hit major league pitching and could be a trade chip or part of our 2016 plans.

I apologize for the sarcasm, but cmon. Given the state of the team, I'm happy for anyone to pitch, hit, or play defense well at the moment.

Sarcasm is fine. My point was that with Werner/Henry making the big calls now they can easily be fooled by a little hot streak that could think of JBJ as our long-term CF with Betts as our greatest trade chip. Yes, this "could" work out if JBJ comes around and Betts can be included in a Sonny Gray deal......I don't trust the people making these calls right now and I certainly don't trust JBJ based on these past 3 seasons.

 

[KillerBs]

Aaron Hicks seems like he may be a decent (hopeful) comp for Bradley. The Twins endured 500+ PA of him OPSing at 600 but it looks they have been rewarded with a pretty good starting CF for the next few years.
 
Also if there is a psychological component to Bradley's ML struggles, I would think he might benefit by knowing he is in lineup come hell or high water until the end of the year. This year he has been provided with a 3 start audition in May (v Dickey, Gray and Felix), 6 starts in late June (which came to an end in the game he hit a HR) and now another 7 game stretch of starts, which appears about to come to a close with Betts' return.  I acknowledge he was given lots of rope last year, but maybe he would benefit from another extended stretch where he doesnt think his ML career depends on getting a hit tonight.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

 
I suspect JBJ developed a problem with the MLB coaching staff during last season's black hole of suck.  I also suspect that the Sox coaching staff will be "new and improved" in the offseason.  So whether or not JBJ is given a fair shake in the remainder of 2015, I hope he's not dealt for a bag of balls this offseason.

 
This is why I brought up Davis, but I'm willing to consider that the problem was someone other than Greg Colbrunn last year. Although, the two guys I would be inclined to point the finger towards are former Pawtucket managers, so it's not like they lack experience with younger players. Admittedly, it's also probably oversimplifying to think that since Bogaerts has thrived offensively this year as opposed to last year then that must mean that Davis is better at working with younger players than Colbrunn was. 

 

[Clears Cleaver]

I don't think JBJ can hit, he is too slow to the zone to hit fastballs over 92-93mph. and he has a hole in his swing on breaking pitches down and in. His swing is shorter, but I am not sure its any "quicker" if you know what I mean. How do u fix that? he can open his stance, but that creates other issues. Something has to change, though or else he's not a MLB player
 
Perhaps the Sox don't want to play Castillo because they just want to trade him this offseason and are afraid that playing him will expose how poor a player he is. He has shown little plate discipline, poor base running skills, poor overall baseball IQ, had disciplinary issues off the field and he is not exactly a tough out at this point. Perhaps the reason they don't play him is that they've given up on him? Otherwise, it makes no sense. I don't trust the coaches or the talent evaluators either way. Ugh
 
Hanley looks now like he's quit on the season. Maybe its a slump, but the ABs have been abysmal. I cannot believe this guy has a .305 OBP.

 

[ivanvamp]

I know De Aza shouldn't be a top priority, but I don't get the hate around here for him.  
 
Career ops+ of 101.  Averages about 1.0 bWAR a season.  
 
Not exactly a starting player, much less a star.  But a useful guy to have on the team.  He shouldn't block anyone from developing, but he's not at all a bad guy to have on the roster.  

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I know De Aza shouldn't be a top priority, but I don't get the hate around here for him.  
 
Career ops+ of 101.  Averages about 1.0 bWAR a season.  
 
Not exactly a starting player, much less a star.  But a useful guy to have on the team.  He shouldn't block anyone from developing, but he's not at all a bad guy to have on the roster.  

 
I think the bolded is the main objection anyone around here has with him at the moment.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

 
This is why I brought up Davis, but I'm willing to consider that the problem was someone other than Greg Colbrunn last year. Although, the two guys I would be inclined to point the finger towards are former Pawtucket managers, so it's not like they lack experience with younger players. Admittedly, it's also probably oversimplifying to think that since Bogaerts has thrived offensively this year as opposed to last year then that must mean that Davis is better at working with younger players than Colbrunn was. 

Didn't Colbrunn miss a significant portion of 2014?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
I think the bolded is the main objection anyone around here has with him at the moment.

Which he isn't doing. Opportunities are earned and can still be earned by showing SOMETHING when they are in the lineup. The excuse that said player needs to play 6-7 days a week to develop or show what he has doesn't pass the smell test especially when one of the two players being discussed had precisely this same opportunity last year and failed miserably. If a player isn't showing anything in 2-3 games a week there is a fundamental problem with the players ability......not a lack of opportunity. Players on developmental curves are going to exhibit these skills to allow them to earn more playing time......otherwise the player is likely to be what they are for the time being. Sure the player could be a late bloomer but how many years do you suffer with subpar performance and little improvement before moving on?

 

[jasail]

I know De Aza shouldn't be a top priority, but I don't get the hate around here for him.  
 
Career ops+ of 101.  Averages about 1.0 bWAR a season.  
 
Not exactly a starting player, much less a star.  But a useful guy to have on the team.  He shouldn't block anyone from developing, but he's not at all a bad guy to have on the roster.  

I agree with everything you've posted, but the bold text is why I have an issue with De Aza and I presume why others have issues. Every game he starts is one fewer game that Rusney starts and when Mookie comes back, De Aza could be taking away ABs from Rusney and JBJ. 

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Which he isn't doing. Opportunities are earned and can still be earned by showing SOMETHING when they are in the lineup. The excuse that said player needs to play 6-7 days a week to develop or show what he has doesn't pass the smell test especially when one of the two players being discussed had precisely this same opportunity last year and failed miserably. If a player isn't showing anything in 2-3 games a week there is a fundamental problem with the players ability......not a lack of opportunity. Players on developmental curves are going to exhibit these skills to allow them to earn more playing time......otherwise the player is likely to be what they are for the time being. Sure the player could be a late bloomer but how many years do you suffer with subpar performance and little improvement before moving on?

 
He's not currently blocking anyone solely because Betts is on the DL, which creates guaranteed playing time for both Bradley and Castillo (even if the latter is platooning with De Aza).  If when Betts returns, De Aza is still getting regular playing time, he absolutely is blocking Bradley or Castillo from playing time.
 
The season is lost.  At this point, it's not about the best player playing and the best possible lineup every day.  It's about letting the guys who are likely to be around next year and beyond the opportunity to play regularly and show something.  Bradley is under team control next year.  Castillo is as well.  De Aza will be a free agent.  Playing time priority for the remainder of the season should be going to Bradley and Castillo (whether full time or a platoon) for just that reason.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
He's not currently blocking anyone solely because Betts is on the DL, which creates guaranteed playing time for both Bradley and Castillo (even if the latter is platooning with De Aza).  If when Betts returns, De Aza is still getting regular playing time, he absolutely is blocking Bradley or Castillo from playing time.
 
The season is lost.  At this point, it's not about the best player playing and the best possible lineup every day.  It's about letting the guys who are likely to be around next year and beyond the opportunity to play regularly and show something.  Bradley is under team control next year.  Castillo is as well.  De Aza will be a free agent.  Playing time priority for the remainder of the season should be going to Bradley and Castillo (whether full time or a platoon) for just that reason.

Sure De Aza will be a FA.....and possibly a player we are very interested in retaining. Stapling him to the bench when he is the superior player of the 3 isn't conducive to us bringing him back. I don't know what will happen when Betts returns and Hanley could certainly shut it down at any time with an "injury" that will open up a spot.....but benching a productive veteran isn't something that is typically done in this league and certainly not a good strategy if you like the player to be a part of the team for the next year or two.

 

[FanSinceBoggs]

 
Hanley looks now like he's quit on the season. Maybe its a slump, but the ABs have been abysmal. I cannot believe this guy has a .305 OBP.

 
 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 

Ramirez, who had only eight doubles this season as of Wednesday, has always had two things attached to his baseball reputation: he’s often injured and he’s a poor clubhouse presence. The positives are his talent and particularly his ability to hit.  There was a scene Tuesday night in the eighth inning, when Ramirez came in on a ball and Pablo Sandoval went out and eventually made the catch, resulting in the two laughing on the field. . .Laughing on the field during a 13-3 loss doesn’t put you in the best light.  http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/08/05/deals-can-made-waiver-period-red-sox-would-like-move-mike-napoli/djSRm7HkZrIjlOJfJ07fvN/story.html?event=event25

 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

Didn't Colbrunn miss a significant portion of 2014?

 
He did. I've acknowledged that my criticism of him is probably unfair. I just look at what Davis has done with a young guy who looked lost last year and wonder what might have been had he gotten the opportunity to work with someone in a(n arguably) similar situation.

 

[Al Zarilla]

 
 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 
 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

Lost a post but gist was any way to do a repeat of getting Farrell from Toronto but get Tito back from Cleveland this time? Wasn't Lucchino the main guy that wanted Tito out, and he's leaving. And, I can't imagine an elite manager (I'll call him that) like Tito being happy in Cleveland for very long. Far fetched dream, yes.

More a post for the Farrell may/should be out thread, sorry.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 

 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

So .. The players are supposed to be miserable and cranky during blowouts? I hate that fake competitive fire baloney. They are human .. And making the best of a miserable game in the midst of a miserable season.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Sure De Aza will be a FA.....and possibly a player we are very interested in retaining. Stapling him to the bench when he is the superior player of the 3 isn't conducive to us bringing him back. 

 
There will be a lot of mid-tier OFs on the market next winter. I don't think we need to worry too much about getting shut out on De Aza.
 

 
 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:

 
Doesn't concern me in the least. I don't see how them being so miserable and tight-assed that they can't react normally to something like that would be conducive to the team winning more, now or next year. People laugh when funny shit happens, and they should, whether they're winning by 10 or losing by 10.
 
EDIT: Or, what BCMJY said.

 

[TheYellowDart5]

Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

 
God forbid these guys actually enjoy the game they're playing. Better to have nine Paul O'Neills out there, smashing water coolers and throwing tantrums with every loss?

 

[absintheofmalaise]

 
They seem to like De Aza.  Maybe they want him to be part of the OF mix in 2016, in which case relegating him to the bench now isn't a smart move.  I'm assuming the Red Sox aren't gonig to spend money on the OF in the off-season.  Instead, the Red Sox's resources will probably go toward the pitching staff.  If that is the case, we might be looking at a 2016 OF of De Aza (LF), Betts (CF), Bradley Jr. (RF), with Runny Nose Castillo starting against lefties.  Of course, I'm working on the assumption that the Red Sox will move Hanley to 1b.
 
On the other hand, if De Aza isn't in the Red Sox's 2016 plans, it makes no sense to play him at this stage of the season.  If De Aza isn't in the Red Sox's 2016 plans, and the organization continues to play him, they are truly lost and in trouble.

In case you come in here before you make your way into the August Moves thread. You aren't funny. Use his given name.

 

[JimD]

Sure De Aza will be a FA.....and possibly a player we are very interested in retaining. Stapling him to the bench when he is the superior player of the 3 isn't conducive to us bringing him back. I don't know what will happen when Betts returns and Hanley could certainly shut it down at any time with an "injury" that will open up a spot.....but benching a productive veteran isn't something that is typically done in this league and certainly not a good strategy if you like the player to be a part of the team for the next year or two.

 
He's a 31-year-old outfielder who's bounced from team to team.  He puts together a nice little run every once in a while before reverting to his backup outfielder ways.  Good for him that's he's put on one of those runs for the Sox, but keeping him happy is not and should not be a priority.  Securing Daniel Nava's replacement is about priority #287 for the front office right now.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

 
 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 
 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

 
I'm so sorry you're concerned. What can we do for you?
 
As for Bradley, having a plus+plus fielder in the most important outfield position means something...not everything, but something. Putting Betts / Castillo in one of the corners fulfills the other Red Sox tradition - a center fielder in Fenway's RF, preferably one with a great arm. Not every center fielder is a Lynn or an Ellsbury, which doesn't excuse lousy hitting but provides perspective.
 
Let's look at JBJ's at bats since he was put into the lineup on 29 July:
 
Against Quintana (3.52): fly out (LF), ground out (P)
Putnam (3.21): fly out (LF)
Sox got 6 hits against Quintana in 6.1
 
Sale (3.20): K swinging, HBP, Single (CF)
 
Ramirez (3.61): K swinging, ground out (2B), K looking
Gomes: ground out (1B) moved runner up
Sox got 4 hits against Ramirez in 6.0
 
Moore (sucked): BB, fly out (RF) moved runner up
Colome (sucked): BB
Cedeno: ground out (P)
 
Odorizzi (2.86): fly out (LF), ground out (1B)
Cedeno: line out (CF)
Sox got 3 hits against Odorizzi in 6.0
 
Tanaka (3.84): line out (CF), SF (LF)
Betances: BB (stole 2nd)
Sox got 5 hits against Tanaka in 6.0
 
Severino: K swinging, K swinging
Warren: fly out (CF)
Sox got 2 hits against Severino in 5.0 
 
That's 1 hit, 3 walks, 1 HBP, 1 SF and 5 K's in 24 appearances
 
Facing Quintana, Ramirez, Odorizzi, Tanaka and Severino - who the team got a combined 20 hits against in 29.1 innings 
 
Small sample, but I think it would be instructive to keep track of Bradley's ab's in a detailed manner from here on out.

 

[semsox]

Nice game with good ABs from Bradley. Reached base 3 times in 4 PA against all lefties.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

 
God forbid these guys actually enjoy the game they're playing. Better to have nine Paul O'Neills out there, smashing water coolers and throwing tantrums with every loss?

 
Exactly. I don't recall anyone bitching last year when Napoli crushed a long HR in Toronto and went back to the dugout whooping it up and laughing even though the team was about 30 games under .500 at that point.
 
Anything that pisses off Paul O'Neill is a good thing.

 

[BestGameEvah]

Nice game with good ABs from Bradley. Reached base 3 times in 4 PA against all lefties.

Sabathia has faced 110 lefties this year and not one has walked, until JBJ.  

 

[Montana Fan]

 
Exactly. I don't recall anyone bitching last year when Napoli crushed a long HR in Toronto and went back to the dugout whooping it up and laughing even though the team was about 30 games under .500 at that point.
 
Anything that pisses off Paul O'Neill is a good thing.

 
How does PoN feel about 8 doubles and a .300 OBP?  I had high expectations for Hanley, he's been pretty disappointing at the bat and in the field.  He's gonna get some grief until he puts up a decent season.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Bradley has had 593 career ABs and has a .189/.267/.270 slash line for a .537 OPS and a 51 OPS+.  I don't care how good of an outfielder he is.  You can't have somebody who is that big of a black hole in the lineup every day.  He's going to be 26 years old next year.  How much more rope can you give him?  His trade value has to have plummeted so the hopes of adding him into a trade package isn't looking as likely as it once was.  His swing has to shorten up or he'll never be a better hitter at the major league level.  I'm just not sure this franchise can afford to give him the necessary ABs next year to see if he can turn it around.

 

[Fishy1]

Bradley has had 593 career ABs and has a .189/.267/.270 slash line for a .537 OPS and a 51 OPS+.  I don't care how good of an outfielder he is.  You can't have somebody who is that big of a black hole in the lineup every day.  He's going to be 26 years old next year.  How much more rope can you give him?  His trade value has to have plummeted so the hopes of adding him into a trade package isn't looking as likely as it once was.  His swing has to shorten up or he'll never be a better hitter at the major league level.  I'm just not sure this franchise can afford to give him the necessary ABs next year to see if he can turn it around.

We're all aware that he's had an incredibly tough start. As people have already argued in this thread, you can give him the rest of the season. We don't necessarily need to see next year. If he closes it out hot next year he's in the mix for a position. Maybe he figures it out, as Aaron Hicks did -- KillerBs thought that was a nice comp, I happen to agree. In fact, it's bizarrely similar. What is your response to that?
 
The point is with someone who is cost-controlled, historically great defensively, and has an excellent track record as a minor leaguer, it behooves the organization to see if he really can't hit when the season is already lost. Which it is. There's some cognitive dissonance, sure, but it might be the kind that can be resolved: how does a guy hit .100 points lower in the majors versus the minors; how does his K% blow up 10%? I'm hopeful yet that he'll continue to show the same excellent plate approach he has so far and the bat will start to meet the ball.

 

[Drek717]

Bradley has had 593 career ABs and has a .189/.267/.270 slash line for a .537 OPS and a 51 OPS+.  I don't care how good of an outfielder he is.  You can't have somebody who is that big of a black hole in the lineup every day.  He's going to be 26 years old next year.  How much more rope can you give him?  His trade value has to have plummeted so the hopes of adding him into a trade package isn't looking as likely as it once was.  His swing has to shorten up or he'll never be a better hitter at the major league level.  I'm just not sure this franchise can afford to give him the necessary ABs next year to see if he can turn it around.

A lot of players have the light come on around 28 or 29 so it is still far from too early for Bradley.  Granted, he was incredibly bad so it will take one of the bigger late 20's bounces in recent history, but the defense does carry a lot of weight.
 
I don't think the club would be out of line going into 2016 with Bradley as the 4th OF behind a RH heavy (even if Hanley is moved to 1B and replaced with a LHB) OF.  Doing so would keep CF in AAA open for Margot and any 4th OF is going to be something of a crap shoot offensively, at least with Bradley we know the defensive value will be there.

 

[jscola85]

Have there been any evaluations / studies done to see if guys who are truly elite defensively like JBJ eventually learn to figure it out at the plate even if they struggle mightily early on?  The archetypal example would be a guy like Ozzie Smith, who flailed away with San Diego for years but was a legendary defensive player and finally developed into an average hitter for much of his time in St. Louis.  I am just thinking that to be truly elite defensively like an Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel type you need tremendous athleticism and coordination, and that eventually with enough patience, that natural ability would translate to better plate production.
 
It's certainly happened the other way - guys who were elite hitters but butchers in the field eventually worked their way into become Gold Glovers, with Wade Boggs being an example here.  I suppose over the thousands of players out there, you perhaps find anomalies like Smith or Boggs who turn a major hole into at least adequacy, but perhaps there is some correlation between elite performance in one aspect of a player predicting eventual improvement in other skills.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

A lot of players have the light come on around 28 or 29 so it is still far from too early for Bradley.  Granted, he was incredibly bad so it will take one of the bigger late 20's bounces in recent history, but the defense does carry a lot of weight.
 
I don't think the club would be out of line going into 2016 with Bradley as the 4th OF behind a RH heavy (even if Hanley is moved to 1B and replaced with a LHB) OF.  Doing so would keep CF in AAA open for Margot and any 4th OF is going to be something of a crap shoot offensively, at least with Bradley we know the defensive value will be there.

Not even a screwed up organization like the Red Sox are going to enter the season with the most abysmal hitter in the game over the past 3 years one injury away from being an everyday player. This is where the value of a DeAza comes into play as a 4th OF.....he can play all the positions well defensively and is competent offensively who can step in and play every day. Bradley can't.

Maybe Bradley does figure it out at 28/29.....if so it will be after he bounces around the league as you can't keep his offense in the ML over the next 3 years on the hopes that he improves.

 

[Super Nomario]

Have there been any evaluations / studies done to see if guys who are truly elite defensively like JBJ eventually learn to figure it out at the plate even if they struggle mightily early on?  The archetypal example would be a guy like Ozzie Smith, who flailed away with San Diego for years but was a legendary defensive player and finally developed into an average hitter for much of his time in St. Louis.  I am just thinking that to be truly elite defensively like an Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel type you need tremendous athleticism and coordination, and that eventually with enough patience, that natural ability would translate to better plate production.
 
It's certainly happened the other way - guys who were elite hitters but butchers in the field eventually worked their way into become Gold Glovers, with Wade Boggs being an example here.  I suppose over the thousands of players out there, you perhaps find anomalies like Smith or Boggs who turn a major hole into at least adequacy, but perhaps there is some correlation between elite performance in one aspect of a player predicting eventual improvement in other skills.

I don't think there's much if any correlation, but what elite ability at one side of the game gets you is opportunity. If Bradley fielded like Daniel Nava, he'd be on the verge of being out of baseball, but because he's a great fielder he'll probably still be kicking around somewhere at 28/29/30, which gives him a chance to improve.
 
There are examples of players who were one-dimensional who improved at the other dimension, but there are plenty of guys who haven't. Rey Ordonez never got better with the bat; neither did Mark Belanger or Darren Lewis or Gary Pettis. Adam Dunn never became a builder fielder; neither did Frank Thomas and countless others. The coordination to catch or throw a ball is pretty different than the coordination to hit one; there may be some ultimate underlying overlap but there's plenty of dissimilarity, too.

 

[NDame616]

Not even a screwed up organization like the Red Sox are going to enter the season with the most abysmal hitter in the game over the past 3 years one injury away from being an everyday player. This is where the value of a DeAza comes into play as a 4th OF.....he can play all the positions well defensively and is competent offensively who can step in and play every day. Bradley can't.

Maybe Bradley does figure it out at 28/29.....if so it will be after he bounces around the league as you can't keep his offense in the ML over the next 3 years on the hopes that he improves.

 
I think DeAza will price himself out of what most people on here would want to pay for a 4th OF. I think the Sox are more likely to have Holt be the roaming 4th OF next year, at 20% of the cost of DeAza

 

[RedOctober3829]

 
I think DeAza will price himself out of what most people on here would want to pay for a 4th OF. I think the Sox are more likely to have Holt be the roaming 4th OF next year, at 20% of the cost of DeAza

Players like Holt and De Aza are better suited to play the 4th OF role than JBJ because they can actually hit.  JBJ could be one of the best defensive OFs of all-time but won't see the field if he continues to hit like this.  He may come around and I hope he does, but this team can't afford to have him even be in the mix for a position next year.  The pressure to win next year is too great to take a flyer on someone who may or may not improve greatly just to get to replacement level.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Players like Holt and De Aza are better suited to play the 4th OF role than JBJ because they can actually hit.  JBJ could be one of the best defensive OFs of all-time but won't see the field if he continues to hit like this.  He may come around and I hope he does, but this team can't afford to have him even be in the mix for a position next year.  The pressure to win next year is too great to take a flyer on someone who may or may not improve greatly just to get to replacement level.

There should be no pressure to win next year. There will be a new CEO, and hopefully a new GM and baseball ops staff.

The pitching staff is generally terrible, both rotation and bullpen. The offense is being anchored by a 22 year old SS and a 40 year old DH.

Next year is a rebuilding year, pure and simple. That doesn't mean the Sox give a MLB role to JBJ, but it does mean that contending for a title shouldn't be a significant consideration into that decision.

 

[rlsb]

Evans didn't become an elite hitter until his tenth year in the majors (first year was a cup of coffee) but he never OPS'd lower than .703 and that was his second year with only 328 PAs. In other words, he was never anywhere near a pathetic hitter (sorry, JBJ) although he was somewhat of a tale of two careers guy. 
 
Ed., should read the whole thread before posting (Moondog said this already).

No problem.  At the point in time that Gammons wrote, Evans' average (.188) was not very far from where JBJ's is currently. He had a reasonable stretch where he was in a rut, and at the time was platooning with one Pigpen Jim Dwyer (No. 1 in your scorecard). I do not disparge Evans in any way, he is one my favorites because he did perservere, and his OPS+ was certainly higher than Bradley's as you suggest.  Still, with all of that, even though Zimmer was not too fond of him for his "lack of courage" (polite), others like Hriniak stuck with him to where he eventually did have career two. The bigger problem it appears ( I can certainly be criticized) is that in his case he tried many different hitting approaches to alleviate his problem where as JBJ appears to be less than receptive to trying different things.  I hope that someone can get through to him.  I don't expect for him to be the hitter that Dewey was post 1980, but it is a waste of excellent defense. I see little sparks along the way, so I hope, but wishful thinking is what it is.

 

[chrisfont9]

Aaron Hicks seems like he may be a decent (hopeful) comp for Bradley. The Twins endured 500+ PA of him OPSing at 600 but it looks they have been rewarded with a pretty good starting CF for the next few years.
 
Also if there is a psychological component to Bradley's ML struggles, I would think he might benefit by knowing he is in lineup come hell or high water until the end of the year. This year he has been provided with a 3 start audition in May (v Dickey, Gray and Felix), 6 starts in late June (which came to an end in the game he hit a HR) and now another 7 game stretch of starts, which appears about to come to a close with Betts' return.  I acknowledge he was given lots of rope last year, but maybe he would benefit from another extended stretch where he doesnt think his ML career depends on getting a hit tonight.

An alternative approach is to tell him he will be playing every day either in Boston or Pawtucket, mostly the latter, so he can continue to develop as a hitter. Seems like there should be a way to tell him that without undermining his confidence. Like, show him some patience and emphasize him getting in the work at this stage.

 

[timlinin8th]

 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

Not to pile on about that terrible article, but within a few sentences of each other they say he's a clubhouse cancer and then get on him for laughing with a teammate. So basically if hes grumpy he loses, and if he has fun he loses. Cool

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

An alternative approach is to tell him he will be playing every day either in Boston or Pawtucket, mostly the latter, so he can continue to develop as a hitter. Seems like there should be a way to tell him that without undermining his confidence. Like, show him some patience and emphasize him getting in the work at this stage.

 
The problem with this is that he knows as well as anybody that he has amply demonstrated his ability to hit AAA pitching respectably, and the problem is specifically about his inability to translate that performance to the next level. He doesn't just need PA at this point. He needs ML PA. Because I agree with smas that we should be realistically looking to 2017, or perhaps even 2018, I see no reason why we shouldn't give JBJ those ML PA right through 2016, as a sorta-kinda-platoon partner with Rusney, before we write him off.
 
Even if you take the position that the fans will never stand for that, and the Sox will need to field another jury-rigged maybe-this-year squad in 2016, there's no reason not to give JBJ the PA the rest of 2015. De Aza is far from the only fish in the sea if we need OF reinforcements over the winter; denying JBJ this (possibly) last chance to get over the ML hump would be way too high a price to pay to keep him happy.

 

[Rough Carrigan]

 
 
Along with Ramirez's putrid OBP, this has me concerned:
 
 
Maybe the Red Sox should remove Farrell, and bring in a manager who can better motivate these guys.  Then again, Cherington may have dealt Farrell a losing hand..... 
 
I would like to think there is an easy fix to these problems, but I'm losing confidence that an easy fix is achievable without a team like the Dodgers to "bail-out" the Red Sox once again.

This is it.  A manager could be some frankenstein combination of the greatest elements of John McGraw, Casey Stengel and Earl Weaver and there's still no way to turn a guy with a Manny Ramirez attitude into a guy with a Dustin Pedroia attitude.   Hanley will always be Hanley.  Maybe the dial can be turned down from 11 to 8 but he'll still be Hanley.

 

[chrisfont9]

 
The problem with this is that he knows as well as anybody that he has amply demonstrated his ability to hit AAA pitching respectably, and the problem is specifically about his inability to translate that performance to the next level. He doesn't just need PA at this point. He needs ML PA. Because I agree with smas that we should be realistically looking to 2017, or perhaps even 2018, I see no reason why we shouldn't give JBJ those ML PA right through 2016, as a sorta-kinda-platoon partner with Rusney, before we write him off.
 
Even if you take the position that the fans will never stand for that, and the Sox will need to field another jury-rigged maybe-this-year squad in 2016, there's no reason not to give JBJ the PA the rest of 2015. De Aza is far from the only fish in the sea if we need OF reinforcements over the winter; denying JBJ this (possibly) last chance to get over the ML hump would be way too high a price to pay to keep him happy.

I basically agree, if the opportunity is there he should get swings in the majors. But even though he's had 700 PAs in AAA, less than half of those have come since he started putting his swing/approach together. So if they feel the need to test out De Aza, then having JBJ in AAA doesn't seem like a waste to me. Oddly enough though, he has a reverse platoon split so it's not like he needs to go work on hitting lefties.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

There should be no pressure to win next year. There will be a new CEO, and hopefully a new GM and baseball ops staff.

The pitching staff is generally terrible, both rotation and bullpen. The offense is being anchored by a 22 year old SS and a 40 year old DH.

Next year is a rebuilding year, pure and simple. That doesn't mean the Sox give a MLB role to JBJ, but it does mean that contending for a title shouldn't be a significant consideration into that decision.

All the more reason for urgency in coming in and turning around a still somewhat talented team who has money to spend. The last thing a new guy is going to do is NOT make a dramatic move to win next season.

 

[RedOctober3829]

There should be no pressure to win next year. There will be a new CEO, and hopefully a new GM and baseball ops staff.

The pitching staff is generally terrible, both rotation and bullpen. The offense is being anchored by a 22 year old SS and a 40 year old DH.

Next year is a rebuilding year, pure and simple. That doesn't mean the Sox give a MLB role to JBJ, but it does mean that contending for a title shouldn't be a significant consideration into that decision.

There's always pressure to win in Boston.  New CEO or not, with a payroll as big as the Red Sox there should be no reason why they can't contend for a WC spot if they make the right moves in the offseason.  

 

[Rasputin]

Two hours and two walls over the past two games. It ain't much, but it's a start.

And good lord, his defense. He took a double and damn near turned it into a double play.

Please, for all that is good in this world, let him hit enough. He just has to hit 9th and get on base.

While I'm at it, Hanley to first so we can go with the Castillo, Betts, Bradley OF.

 

[MuzzyField]

Two hours and two walls over the past two games. It ain't much, but it's a start.

And good lord, his defense. He took a double and damn near turned it into a double play.

Please, for all that is good in this world, let him hit enough. He just has to hit 9th and get on base.

While I'm at it, Hanley to first so we can go with the Castillo, Betts, Bradley OF.

Not sure about hours and walls, but I'm all in on the gist of this!