What does 2023 look like?

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I think the key word in SLT's sentence is bloated more so than age. When Bloom was hired, they had big, long commitments to veterans (Sale, JDM, Eovaldi, etc) with a bunch of their young previously cheap talent due for significant raises/longer commitments (Betts, Bogaerts, JBJ, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers, etc). Not really tenable to try to hold that bunch all together for another 2-3 years.

None of the older additions this year are long term commitments. They're placeholders for the coming youth (or free agents next winter).

How you feel about the direction of the organization really comes down to how you feel about the “coming youth”. I see a couple guys to be excited about who are still a year or more away, but not much at all in the way of pitching. Payroll flexibility and tons of money to burn in free agency was what we heard this off-season; but we largely got a bunch of placeholders, Yoshida, and the Devers extension. Nothing to sneeze it, but not sure that’s the core of a real contender, yet. Performance of Yoshida, Bello, Whitlock, Houck this year will go a long way towards determining the future of this team, IMO.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

How you feel about the direction of the organization really comes down to how you feel about the “coming youth”. I see a couple guys to be excited about who are still a year or more away, but not much at all in the way of pitching. Payroll flexibility and tons of money to burn in free agency was what we heard this off-season; but we largely got a bunch of placeholders, Yoshida, and the Devers extension. Nothing to sneeze it, but not sure that’s the core of a real contender, yet. Performance of Yoshida, Bello, Whitlock, Houck this year will go a long way towards determining the future of this team, IMO.

already giving up on Casas???

Crap... was writing more but deleted it by accident. But the "core" also has a few injured guys, along with how Mata, Mayer and Cedanne develop. There's a lot of questions but this years team, I agree with RHF below.... was assembled as yet another "hopefully things break well for health and they'll compete" (which I still believe they will). I also think trading X at the deadline last year would have been a terrible move and all the other deadline deals by other teams didn't really look interesting.
As far as pitching goes, Mata, Perales and Gonzalez are all high ceiling guys with Walter, Murphy and Crawford having great affordable bullpen potential. I don't share the "no pitching" outlook. We're not Tampa in regards to developing pitching but who is?
Further away there's Bleis and Yorke who I'm definitely excited about.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

How you feel about the direction of the organization really comes down to how you feel about the “coming youth”. I see a couple guys to be excited about who are still a year or more away, but not much at all in the way of pitching. Payroll flexibility and tons of money to burn in free agency was what we heard this off-season; but we largely got a bunch of placeholders, Yoshida, and the Devers extension. Nothing to sneeze it, but not sure that’s the core of a real contender, yet. Performance of Yoshida, Bello, Whitlock, Houck this year will go a long way towards determining the future of this team, IMO.

I think the bolded is the most important. We can debate the viability of the future forever, and that's all good. But some of the upset right now seems to be focused on contending now when clearly that wasn't the only focus of this off-season. I think Bloom put together a roster that can contend with the right breaks along the way, namely that most players perform to median expectations and significant injuries are avoided...basically the 2013 formula. But without the breaks, it's going to be a middling team at best. And so far that's what we're getting...guys struggling out of the gate, a couple significant injuries, and a 5-8 record. Still too early to write the plan and the season off though.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

already giving up on Casas???

Touché. I knew I was forgetting someone.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I think the bolded is the most important. We can debate the viability of the future forever, and that's all good. But some of the upset right now seems to be focused on contending now when clearly that wasn't the only focus of this off-season. I think Bloom put together a roster that can contend with the right breaks along the way, namely that most players perform to median expectations and significant injuries are avoided...basically the 2013 formula. But without the breaks, it's going to be a middling team at best. And so far that's what we're getting...guys struggling out of the gate, a couple significant injuries, and a 5-8 record. Still too early to write the plan and the season off though.

I think the underwhelming starts from Casas, Yoshida, etc are probably driving a lot of the initial disappointment in this team, too. If the team stinks but Casas, Bello, Yoshida all have promising seasons then I think the mood will be a lot different (of course- if all those guys are good, the team probably will be too). If these guys are mediocre, then I think the “what the heck are we doing here” thoughts overwhelm. Thankfully, 92% of the season remains, and teams have overcome far worse starts than this.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I think the underwhelming starts from Casas, Yoshida, etc are probably driving a lot of the initial disappointment in this team, too. If the team stinks but Casas, Bello, Yoshida all have promising seasons then I think the mood will be a lot different (of course- if all those guys are good, the team probably will be too). If these guys are mediocre, then I think the “what the heck are we doing here” thoughts overwhelm. Thankfully, 92% of the season remains, and teams have overcome far worse starts than this.

I also don't think Bloom will be as hesitant to deal some of the talent away at the deadline this year as he was in '22. I don't see a fan uproar if Verdugo is dealt.... and they have a lot of other bullpen arms that could return quality ML but young talent. I didn't see that as likely last year. Dealing X or any of the injured or underperforming players wasn't bringing anything back of significant value.

 

[YTF]

We should be able to flip Jansen at the deadline for a nice prospect.

The level of prospect is going to depend on Jansen's performance as well as money owed and how much of that Boston is willing to eat.

 

[rodderick]

I also don't think Bloom will be as hesitant to deal some of the talent away at the deadline this year as he was in '22. I don't see a fan uproar if Verdugo is dealt.... and they have a lot of other bullpen arms that could return quality ML but young talent. I didn't see that as likely last year. Dealing X or any of the injured or underperforming players wasn't bringing anything back of significant value.

If Verdugo is dealt at the deadline while having a pretty good season and the Red Sox floundering, people will go absolutely ballistic with "the one guy who you got for Betts who could play and you're giving him away????" takes. Bet on it.

 

[pedro1999mvp]

I just got done reading the last couple pages of this thread, and there is a lot of differing opinions, but to me the bottom line is that this was a horribly planned out roster. The pitching staff is old and has injury concerns at the top. The lineup is too left-handed (even with Duvall, your ideal top 4 would include 3 lefties), there is absolutely no team speed, and the defense absolutely F***ing sucks. Verdugo was an average at best LF and now he's being asked to play a challenging RF. Duvall is a decent corner OF who doesn't have the speed and range of an elite CF. Tapia, despite his speed, is a poor defensive OF. Refsnyder is a poor defensive OF who is stretched to play CF. Our best CF is playing SS. McGuire can't even come close to throwing anybody out. A couple of years ago almost all Sox fans wanted Devers to either switch to 1B or become a DH because his defense at 3B was so bad, and now he might be one of our best defensive players. This is a poorly constructed roster and looks nothing like what Bloom used to construct in TB.

Just an intersting note, I have played strat-o-matic since the 80s. Their defensie rating isn't as accurate or intense as defensive WAR, but having played the game for almost 40 years, I can say it's pretty darn accurate. For those that don't play, 1 is very good/elite, 2 is above average, 3 is average, 4 is below average, 5 is very poor and usually only guys that play very little D get a 5.
McGuire is a 3 at C
Casas is a 3 at 1B
Arroyo is a 3 at 2B
Devers is a 3 at 3B
Kike is a 4 at SS (but this is because of small sample size, I expect he would be better if he played more SS last year...he's a 2 in CF)
Refsnyder and Tapia are a 4 at all 3 OF spots (if Duran is called up he's a 4 in CF)
Duvall is a 3 in CF
Verdugo is a 4 in RF (would have been a 3 in LF)
Duvall is a 3 at 1B but obviosuly shouldn't be playing SS
Even Chang isn't very good defensively, his best position is a 3 at 2B.
Yoshida wasn't in MLB so no rating, but he doesn't exactly look like a gold glover out there.

There is not a single player who is even above average at their position unless Kike plays CF more.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

It's not just about W/L results thirteen games into the season, but how they play the game. To this point in the season, they look like a dumpster-tier team that plays the game the "wrong" way. Head scratching moves by the manager, bullpen blow-ups, shit defense, clueless approaches at the plate, and an unreliable starting staff that will Proctor the bullpen by July. If they were playing a sounder more competitive brand of baseball it would be easier to see some upside, but they're out there getting their teeth kicked in while shitting themselves.

And now they start three straight series versus first place teams.

 

[sezwho]

It's not just about W/L results thirteen games into the season, but how they play the game. To this point in the season, they look like a dumpster-tier team that plays the game the "wrong" way. Head scratching moves by the manager, bullpen blow-ups, shit defense, clueless approaches at the plate, and an unreliable starting staff that will Proctor the bullpen by July. If they were playing a sounder more competitive brand of baseball it would be easier to see some upside, but they're out there getting their teeth kicked in while shitting themselves.

And now they start three straight series versus first place teams.

At least Dalbec is available to back 'em all up : )

'23 is looking rougher to me than I expected for the reasons noted by @pedro1999mvp* as well: I'm not positioning strat-o-matic as beallendall, but Bloom built a team that pushes the exact wrong buttons for my fandom again.

Generally I'm ok to build a team leaning O over D, but watching people just not be able to field the position (like 1b and RF last year and now 1b and SS and who knows what OF will be like) is just so ugly. I'm not a 'purist' or someone who puts the game on a pedestal, but its just insulting somehow that we are unable to put a basically sound team on the field for 200M. Even giving 28 to Sale. I'm going to steal the moniker for yelling at clouds, but why do 1000s of drills your whole baseball life if the plan is to get stuck in a new position w/ a couple spring training games for prep?

I hope they all get well and get better, but it gets late early when your pitch to contact staff isn't great and has butchers behind it.

*Note for other Pedro fanfolk, I actually met the real one and thanked him in person at Logan airport a couple weeks ago (he was awesome). I then flew to Toronto and was taken to hockey hall of fame and saw Neely's playoff goal winning puck. Wasn't expecting either when I headed off for work trip that AM so helluva day for this Boston fan.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

It's not just about W/L results thirteen games into the season, but how they play the game. To this point in the season, they look like a dumpster-tier team that plays the game the "wrong" way. Head scratching moves by the manager, bullpen blow-ups, shit defense, clueless approaches at the plate, and an unreliable starting staff that will Proctor the bullpen by July. If they were playing a sounder more competitive brand of baseball it would be easier to see some upside, but they're out there getting their teeth kicked in while shitting themselves.

It sounds like what 2023 will look like is basically 2022.

 

[TheYellowDart5]

Just to add some numbers to the defense discussion:

View: https://twitter.com/Britt_Ghiroli/status/1646868843694882816


By Defensive Efficiency, the Red Sox rank 24th with a .666 mark (the Reds are last at .636, the Twins are first at .746). By Outs Above Average, they're 25th at -5 (the Rockies are last at -10, the Diamondbacks are first at +7). Small samples obviously, but that backs up what we're all seeing: this is a below-average team defensively, and decidedly so.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Year 1 of Blooms team

Wow. This is being VERRRRRRRYY generous.

 

[canderson]

If they fire Cora before Bloom, I'm going to lose my shit.

Bloom has been a fucking disaster. From the team that was almost in the Series in 2021, damn near anyone who's still good is gone, and people who suck are still here.

Xander, Renfroe, Vasquez, Schwarber, Eovaldi--gone.

Still here: Ort, Arroyo, the corpse of Kike, Brasier, Sale

Devers is great. Verdugo, Pivetta, and Whitlock are all useful pieces, but 2021 was really lucky and he proceeded to chose wrong almost every from that team.

We're four years in, and they've been God awful every year except for one fluke. Cora has a record of success pre-Bloom.

If Cora stays and Bloom goes, this is broken.

While I agree wholeheartedly, Bloom will have to fire Cora to save his own job this year. It's the wrong move, but it's the move that I think happens.

 

[Remagellan]

I just got done reading the last couple pages of this thread, and there is a lot of differing opinions, but to me the bottom line is that this was a horribly planned out roster. The pitching staff is old and has injury concerns at the top. The lineup is too left-handed (even with Duvall, your ideal top 4 would include 3 lefties), there is absolutely no team speed, and the defense absolutely F***ing sucks. Verdugo was an average at best LF and now he's being asked to play a challenging RF. Duvall is a decent corner OF who doesn't have the speed and range of an elite CF. Tapia, despite his speed, is a poor defensive OF. Refsnyder is a poor defensive OF who is stretched to play CF. Our best CF is playing SS. McGuire can't even come close to throwing anybody out. A couple of years ago almost all Sox fans wanted Devers to either switch to 1B or become a DH because his defense at 3B was so bad, and now he might be one of our best defensive players. This is a poorly constructed roster and looks nothing like what Bloom used to construct in TB.

Just an intersting note, I have played strat-o-matic since the 80s. Their defensie rating isn't as accurate or intense as defensive WAR, but having played the game for almost 40 years, I can say it's pretty darn accurate. For those that don't play, 1 is very good/elite, 2 is above average, 3 is average, 4 is below average, 5 is very poor and usually only guys that play very little D get a 5.
McGuire is a 3 at C
Casas is a 3 at 1B
Arroyo is a 3 at 2B
Devers is a 3 at 3B
Kike is a 4 at SS (but this is because of small sample size, I expect he would be better if he played more SS last year...he's a 2 in CF)
Refsnyder and Tapia are a 4 at all 3 OF spots (if Duran is called up he's a 4 in CF)
Duvall is a 3 in CF
Verdugo is a 4 in RF (would have been a 3 in LF)
Duvall is a 3 at 1B but obviosuly shouldn't be playing SS
Even Chang isn't very good defensively, his best position is a 3 at 2B.
Yoshida wasn't in MLB so no rating, but he doesn't exactly look like a gold glover out there.

There is not a single player who is even above average at their position unless Kike plays CF more.

This is the one thing I have no issue conceding to anyone down on this team--the defense is terrible. Positional flexibility is fine, but having too many guys who play a number of positions (Kike, Chang, Arroyo, Dalbec) often leads to a team fielding defenders who are at best average at their positions. And that leads to extra outs, which is death to a pitching staff that is struggling.

(I don't play Strat much anymore, as I prefer Inside Pitch, but in that game as well the difference between playing with a team with a great defense and even a mediocre one is striking. And playing with a team with a bad defense is a frustrating experience akin to watching yet another groundball to short or second NOT result in a DP when either Kike or Arroyo drops the ball on the exchange.)

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I think having players playing different positions also likely leads to a lack of cohesiveness and often, confusion on the field. A lot of these guys haven’t played together much; and there’s a different lineup with players at different positions seemingly every other game. I’m also guessing that having a guy like Dalbec worrying about playing SS doesn’t help his offense. Seems like having some more clearly defined roles might help.

 

[BigSoxFan]

While I agree wholeheartedly, Bloom will have to fire Cora to save his own job this year. It's the wrong move, but it's the move that I think happens.

That’s where competent ownership needs to step in. Bloom shouldn’t even be allowed to go to the bathroom this year without Henry’s explicit permission.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

That’s where competent ownership needs to step in. Bloom shouldn’t even be allowed to go to the bathroom this year without Henry’s explicit permission.

I’m 100% certain that Bloom is mostly following orders already

 

[TheYellowDart5]

Yeah, putting this all on Bloom isn't fair. He's getting marching orders from Henry and co., who have clearly told him to make do with less. That doesn't excuse Bloom botching the majority of the moves in the process, but ownership is absolutely not helping things right now.

 

[beautokyo]

I

I agree 100%. At least Duran has some upside to his game and can run. Dalbec should not be on a major league roster even as bad as ours. Put Kike back to short and let Duran play most games in center. If he can’t produce this year, we know it’s time to move on.

He's batting .188 in Wooster. I've moved on from him.

 

[chrisfont9]

If they fire Cora before Bloom, I'm going to lose my shit.

Well find a good place for your shit. They brought him in to be the opposite of Dombrowski, to rebuild the organization, which people like you can't or won't acknowledge. But you think they're now going to fire him because he's not Dombrowski?

 

[chrisfont9]

He's batting .188 in Wooster. I've moved on from him.

In 9 games? Maybe you should move on from baseball entirely. It doesn't move at the speed that you apparently want it to.

 

[moondog80]

He's batting .188 in Wooster. I've moved on from him.

More relevant:

The 188/381/406 form Duran in 42 PA in Worcester this year, or the 283/349/491 in 307 PA in Worcester last year?

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Well find a good place for your shit. They brought him in to be the opposite of Dombrowski, to rebuild the organization, which people like you can't or won't acknowledge. But you think they're now going to fire him because he's not Dombrowski?

DD got 4 years, and was canned less than a year after the franchise won the WS, at the end of a season where the teams run diff was on par with Bloom’s best season. How patient do you think they are going to be with Chaim? It’s year 4. An improved farm system of DD/Bloom guys that isn’t producing major league talent isn’t all that compelling.

We’ve seen how this organization has treated front office and on field personnel far more accomplished than Bloom, yet we think they will exercise far more patience with him than they did Tito, Cherington. Dombrowski, etc? Even in the face of major declines in attendance and viewership? Why?

 

[chrisfont9]

DD got 4 years, and was canned less than a year after the franchise won the WS, at the end of a season where the teams run diff was on par with Bloom’s best season. How patient do you think they are going to be with Chaim? It’s year 4. An improved farm system of DD/Bloom guys that isn’t producing major league talent isn’t all that compelling.

We’ve seen how this organization has treated front office and on field personnel far more accomplished than Bloom, yet we think they will exercise far more patience with him than they did Tito, Cherington. Dombrowski, etc? Even in the face of major declines in attendance and viewership? Why?

Because the franchise is at a completely different point in their evolution. I mean, maybe they will do this but it would be a total betrayal of why they brought him in. Also DD was brought in to do a job, did it, and was let go when the job was *done*. Kennedy has hinted pretty strongly about where they are at.

 

[ShaneTrot]

I know going forward that the Sox will have a lot of money to spend and have some pretty good prospects in the minors. It's just we are going to have to spend the year watching this team that sucks defensively, is not athletic enough to take advantage of the new rules, is old, and will in most games be starting the lamer starting pitcher.

 

[chrisfont9]

I know going forward that the Sox will have a lot of money to spend and have some pretty good prospects in the minors. It's just we are going to have to spend the year watching this team that sucks defensively, is not athletic enough to take advantage of the new rules, is old, and will in most games be starting the lamer starting pitcher.

I think defensively Story, Mondesi and Kiké/Duvall will change things by ... June? July? It sucks that we have to wait for them to evolve given the horrible season they are coming off. But I don't think (personally) that they are wrong to prioritize the future over maxing out 2023. Quick fixes don't really work.

 

[jose melendez]

Well find a good place for your shit. They brought him in to be the opposite of Dombrowski, to rebuild the organization, which people like you can't or won't acknowledge. But you think they're now going to fire him because he's not Dombrowski?

If this is just executing the plan and the plan takes time, then firing Cora is bullshit.

 

[moondog80]

I think defensively Story, Mondesi and Kiké/Duvall will change things by ... June? July? It sucks that we have to wait for them to evolve given the horrible season they are coming off. But I don't think (personally) that they are wrong to prioritize the future over maxing out 2023. Quick fixes don't really work.

Agree.

This all goes back to five-to-six years of the farm producing next to nothing. It means you have to build a roster of free agents, which is a crapshoot no matter who is buying the groceries. Bloom has been far from perfect, but this was going to be a tough situation for anyone. I still think the "let's spend but be very careful about long term deals until we have the young, cost controlled players to compliment the big guns" has been the correct approach. It does mean you have to cut some corners, especially given the holes they had. But this was/is a roster, where, with a moderate-but-not-crazy amount of things broke their way, they could contend. At the start of the season fangraphs projected 81.4 wins and a 34% chance at the postseason. I don't love a 34% chance, but given the situation, I'm not sure it was reasonable to expect much more, unless you wanted to mortgage the future.

 

[tims4wins]

If this is just executing the plan and the plan takes time, then firing Cora is bullshit.

My question is, why would Cora want to be here for this? I get he had the stain on his resume, but after the 2021 run I think he built his reputation back up enough that he'd be hired pretty quickly elsewhere if he was let go.

 

[Humphrey]

The Sox are 3-20 in their last 23 games in Tampa Bay. I’m almost impressed with the magnitude of their ineptitude down there.

I just got done reading the last couple pages of this thread, and there is a lot of differing opinions, but to me the bottom line is that this was a horribly planned out roster. The pitching staff is old and has injury concerns at the top. The lineup is too left-handed (even with Duvall, your ideal top 4 would include 3 lefties), there is absolutely no team speed, and the defense absolutely F***ing sucks. Verdugo was an average at best LF and now he's being asked to play a challenging RF. Duvall is a decent corner OF who doesn't have the speed and range of an elite CF. Tapia, despite his speed, is a poor defensive OF. Refsnyder is a poor defensive OF who is stretched to play CF. Our best CF is playing SS. McGuire can't even come close to throwing anybody out. A couple of years ago almost all Sox fans wanted Devers to either switch to 1B or become a DH because his defense at 3B was so bad, and now he might be one of our best defensive players. This is a poorly constructed roster and looks nothing like what Bloom used to construct in TB.

Just an intersting note, I have played strat-o-matic since the 80s. Their defensie rating isn't as accurate or intense as defensive WAR, but having played the game for almost 40 years, I can say it's pretty darn accurate. For those that don't play, 1 is very good/elite, 2 is above average, 3 is average, 4 is below average, 5 is very poor and usually only guys that play very little D get a 5.
McGuire is a 3 at C
Casas is a 3 at 1B
Arroyo is a 3 at 2B
Devers is a 3 at 3B
Kike is a 4 at SS (but this is because of small sample size, I expect he would be better if he played more SS last year...he's a 2 in CF)
Refsnyder and Tapia are a 4 at all 3 OF spots (if Duran is called up he's a 4 in CF)
Duvall is a 3 in CF
Verdugo is a 4 in RF (would have been a 3 in LF)
Duvall is a 3 at 1B but obviosuly shouldn't be playing SS
Even Chang isn't very good defensively, his best position is a 3 at 2B.
Yoshida wasn't in MLB so no rating, but he doesn't exactly look like a gold glover out there.

There is not a single player who is even above average at their position unless Kike plays CF more.

Been a long time since I played Strat O Matic, early 1970s- the defensive ratings only went as low as 4. Maybe they created a 5 after the DH was adopted...or was it later than that? I do remember seeing a game 10-15 years later and they had created the left-and-right splits. Before that, you could tip the scales for your favorite team by using a platoon player with great numbers full time.

I assume Franchy is a 5 at at least one position.

 

[Rovin Romine]

DD got 4 years, and was canned less than a year after the franchise won the WS, at the end of a season where the teams run diff was on par with Bloom’s best season.

Dombrowski hired in August of 2015, and was dismissed in September of 2019 after what was essentially a reboot of the 2018 WS team tumbled out of contention. And was not coming back due to free agency.

Now, it may come as a complete shock to you, but this is what Dombrowski left them: View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l9hPh7ITusWGngIWJdPqwN_kL5e9ci_ygCsg9ng02LM/edit#gid=573401688


Keep in mind Sale and Price were both injured/ineffective. Monies were being paid to Pedroia, Pierce, Sandoval, and Castillo (mostly not his fault, but you can't not be aware of it.)

You can click here and scroll down to look at the prime prospect in the system as of October 2019. https://soxprospects.com/history.htm Recognizable names, but nothing close to the majors except for Dalbec (late 2020).

Compare that to July 1 of 205 - just before he came on. Some were kept, some were traded, but that's a pretty stocked war-chest with near ML talent.

And, FWIW, these were Dombrowski's drafts:
https://soxprospects.com/dh2016.htm
https://soxprospects.com/dh2017.htm
https://soxprospects.com/dh2018.htm
https://soxprospects.com/dh2019.htm

 

[Rovin Romine]

My question is, why would Cora want to be here for this? I get he had the stain on his resume, but after the 2021 run I think he built his reputation back up enough that he'd be hired pretty quickly elsewhere if he was let go.

Cora really needs a veteran team he can stay out of the way of. The Dodgers or the Yankees would be the perfect fit for his skill-set.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Please take a look at the 2012-15 drafts, too.

2019 was way too early to judge DD’s drafts. Just look now, a high % of the top prospects on the currently “loaded” Sox system were signed / drafted by DD. There’s a lag here; the main reason that the Sox didn’t have a lot of major league ready prospects in 2019 was because of Cherington’s final few drafts, IMO.

If Bloom gets canned in 2023, I don’t think it will be because his draft hasn’t yielded any major leaguers. It’s way too soon to judge his drafts. If he gets fired and he is drafts end up beating fruit, the next guy will get the credit.

i think you are missing point, though. Do you think the Sox organization will be more patient with Bloom than they were with his two predecessors? They’ve always been impatient, reactionary, and prone to quickly reverse course based on public opinion or other influences.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Wow. This is being VERRRRRRRYY generous.

I don't know... I mean, I did qualify it, but this is the first year that I really think this is a majority Bloom team rather than the one he walked into. It's really not that crazy of a thing to think... and if some other GM has to come in and fix up Bloom's team, it'll take them probably 3-4 years to really transform that team. But honestly, whoever (if it's not Bloom himself) takes over in say, '24... the future will be in a much better situation than it was when Bloom took over.

I also want to stress that I'm not a "Bloomer"... I think he's made several bad decisions but they've mostly been made in the "short term/continue to compete" mode rather than long term. His long-term plan is still quite solid... but it's a plan. And filling in the time between that plan and after he took over has been bumpy at best.

What Cherington did when he came in was very similar but he somehow was magically able to dupe the Dodgers- Bloom didn't have a trade partner like that.

 

[chawson]

I think almost all of the handwringing is ridiculous at this point, but there are a couple things I'm concerned about.

1. Yoshida. I really, really want to like this player. It is extremely early to evaluate him, but it's hard not to be concerned with the kind of contact he's making. The plate discipline is great. Yoshida was the biggest signing in the offseason we lost Bogaerts, but the way I see it, his alternative was Kyle Schwarber, who signed a comparable deal. I would love to see us win that bet, but I'm not fully convinced that Yoshida isn't Nori Aoki.

2. Kiké at shortstop was too cute an idea to begin with. I get that it's a stopgap for Mondesi/Story/trade deadline acquisition. It's also possible the WBC held him back a bit and he improves with reps. But with Duvall out that experiment should end immediately. I don't see that the defense is especially flawed otherwise.

3. Chris Martin isn't striking anyone out. Is that just noise?

 

[Rovin Romine]

Please take a look at the 2012-15 drafts, too.

2019 was way too early to judge DD’s drafts. Just look now, a high % of the top prospects on the currently “loaded” Sox system were signed / drafted by DD. There’s a lag here; the main reason that the Sox didn’t have a lot of major league ready prospects in 2019 was because of Cherington’s final few drafts, IMO.

Sure. Dombrowski also traded significant near-ML ready assets for players in a push to shore up the ML team and win a series. Which he did.

I'm not saying there's a perfect world where one can trade MiL assets, compete and get low draft picks, and keep the farm system fully stocked.

But I am saying that by the end of 2019, DD had left a farm system that had few near-to-graduating prospects, and a hobbled ML roster full of holes and FA-to-be's. So I would guess that's what ownership responded to, as opposed to the idea they suddenly decided to fire DD mid-September. But maybe that was so.

They’ve always been impatient, reactionary, and prone to quickly reverse course based on public opinion or other influences.

Well then, I suppose we all ought to encourage everyone to shout louder so they sign or extend the next Chris Sale, David Price, Carl Crawford, or Pablo Sandoval. Things will go really well the closer we push things to a tweet-tocracy.

 

[chrisfont9]

If this is just executing the plan and the plan takes time, then firing Cora is bullshit.

Agree! I don't see either of them leaving, it's pointless.

 

[TonyPenaNeverJuiced]

Cora really needs a veteran team he can stay out of the way of. The Dodgers or the Yankees would be the perfect fit for his skill-set.

Ah, dang, too bad those teams already have former players who were not stars but have become generally respected managers who each really need a veteran team they can stay ouf of the way of. Maybe we could work out a three-way trade? We get Boone?

 

[chrisfont9]

I think almost all of the handwringing is ridiculous at this point, but there are a couple things I'm concerned about.

1. Yoshida. I really, really want to like this player. It is extremely early to evaluate him, but it's hard not to be concerned with the kind of contact he's making. The plate discipline is great. Yoshida was the biggest signing in the offseason we lost Bogaerts, but the way I see it, his alternative was Kyle Schwarber, who signed a comparable deal. I would love to see us win that bet, but I'm not fully convinced that Yoshida isn't Nori Aoki.

2. Kiké at shortstop was too cute an idea to begin with. I get that it's a stopgap for Mondesi/Story/trade deadline acquisition. It's also possible the WBC held him back a bit and he improves with reps. But with Duvall out that experiment should end immediately. I don't see that the defense is especially flawed otherwise.

3. Chris Martin isn't striking anyone out. Is that just noise?

You've been around way too long to fall into that trap with Yoshida, no? Give him a minimum of two months before drawing any conclusions. But also keep in mind that he hasn't ever been a huge slugger, just a hard contact guy who can go yard but tends to hit more doubles. Honestly, it would be kind of miraculous for him to just slide right in and be his best self. He didn't even have an MLB spring training.

 

[pedro1999mvp]

Been a long time since I played Strat O Matic, early 1970s- the defensive ratings only went as low as 4. Maybe they created a 5 after the DH was adopted...or was it later than that? I do remember seeing a game 10-15 years later and they had created the left-and-right splits. Before that, you could tip the scales for your favorite team by using a platoon player with great numbers full time.

I assume Franchy is a 5 at at least one position.

The 5 rating is relatively new. Not brand new, and all the years seem to run together as you get older, but I would estimate maybe the last 10 years. And yes, Franchy is a 5 at at least 1 position.

 

[bosockboy]

DD got 4 years, and was canned less than a year after the franchise won the WS, at the end of a season where the teams run diff was on par with Bloom’s best season. How patient do you think they are going to be with Chaim? It’s year 4. An improved farm system of DD/Bloom guys that isn’t producing major league talent isn’t all that compelling.

We’ve seen how this organization has treated front office and on field personnel far more accomplished than Bloom, yet we think they will exercise far more patience with him than they did Tito, Cherington. Dombrowski, etc? Even in the face of major declines in attendance and viewership? Why?

My guess is the Henry vision was to rebuild the organization and put out 88 win wildcard teams in the process. That’s likely not happening again this season so I agree, Chaim is likely failing at the second part of his job-keeping them just interesting enough on the fly.

 

[Blizzard of 1978]

Has any Red Sox team been 8 games out after only 13 games? I can't think of one Red Sox team that was out by 8 games after only 2 weeks of games?

 

[Coachster]

More relevant:

The 188/381/406 form Duran in 42 PA in Worcester this year, or the 283/349/491 in 307 PA in Worcester last year?

Once again, explain this to me. Ramiel Tapia was at .265/.292/.380 in THE MAJOR LEAGUES last year, and he can track a ball and throw a little. Did ya know? He's on our team now.

Duran has no upside. He's a faster Michael Chavis.(But he doesn't cross himself between pitches. Wait- is THAT the upside?)

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Has any Red Sox team been 8 games out after only 13 games? I can't think of one Red Sox team that was out by 8 games after only 2 weeks of games?

Has any Red Sox team been in a division with a 13-0 team before? Their record would put them 3, 3.5, or 4 games out in every other division in baseball. The eye-popping nature of this stat is on the Rays side, not the Red Sox side.

 

[Fishy1]

I’m with you, but we appear to be a dying breed.
Different strokes, I suppose.

Case in point:

Has any Red Sox team been 8 games out after only 13 games? I can't think of one Red Sox team that was out by 8 games after only 2 weeks of games?

And how many teams have started 13-0? And how many times has this exact exchange happened in like three pages?

 

[jon abbey]

1. Yoshida. I really, really want to like this player. It is extremely early to evaluate him, but it's hard not to be concerned with the kind of contact he's making. The plate discipline is great. Yoshida was the biggest signing in the offseason we lost Bogaerts, but the way I see it, his alternative was Kyle Schwarber, who signed a comparable deal. I would love to see us win that bet, but I'm not fully convinced that Yoshida isn't Nori Aoki.

I'm guessing you meant to write Benintendi instead of Schwarber? Schwarber was the previous offseason.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Has any Red Sox team been in a division with a 13-0 team before? Their record would put them 3, 3.5, or 4 games out in every other division in baseball. The eye-popping nature of this stat is on the Rays side, not the Red Sox side.

Are we just ignoring that 31% of the Rays wins came against the Sox? I mean half of the reason that they are 8 games out is that they went 0-4 against Tampa. Had they split, they’d be 4 out and nobody would be talking about it.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Has any Red Sox team been in a division with a 13-0 team before? Their record would put them 3, 3.5, or 4 games out in every other division in baseball. The eye-popping nature of this stat is on the Rays side, not the Red Sox side.

Right. The Yankees are 8-5 and are 5 games out.