Washington Football Team is now the Washington Commanders
- Thread starter Hoya81
- Start date
They might object to honoring a team that was built to lose, and lost like 8,000 game in a row.
But i could see honoring a long time valient General, Red Klotz
But I'm leaning towards Redtails, it works on a lot of bases.
For sure. I actually didn't realize how many American Indian players were on the roster -- you think the team would have made that a bigger part of the narrative. Orien Crow, Larry Johnson, David Ward, Rabbit Weller.
But that just goes back to how the team's handling of this issue has been so inept. American Indians have a really fascinating connection to the sport of football and the Redskins have some interesting connections as well, including training in Carlisle, PA, where the Carlisle Indian Industrial School incredibly became a collegiate football power. (Recommended reading is Sally Jenkins' The Real All-Americans, which culminates with Carlisle knocking off Army).
If the team wanted to "earn" the name, they could have done some really impactful work telling that story and funding high school football programs in American Indian communities across the country. Go back to Carlisle and open a museum. Partner with the Chiefs, build a high school stadium and play a preseason game on a different reservation each year. Use their proximity to the federal government to do some real work in affecting change. Things along those lines. (In their defense, they've done some light lifting in these areas.)
Would that have made the name not problematic? I don't know, maybe not. But it certainly would have been better than just ignoring the issue.
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Maybe but I’ve not personally ever had anyone take that view. I think people are looking for allies. Anyway maybe a better way of saying it is I don’t think there is a magical percentage of Native Americans who need to find offense in the name for me to use my own privilege to support a name change. I don’t think me supporting or even pushing for a name change is virtue signaling any more than all of the white families with BLM signs on their lawn in my lily white suburb.
My girlfriend and I bought our condo back in 2004 and we got roped into an adjustable rate mortgage. A couple of years in, a friend of mine who is a banker put me in touch with a friend of his at Chase, who then referred me to a person out in Arizona.
We talked on the phone for awhile, my cousin moved to Arizona a number of years ago and lives close to where the Chase representative lives, during our conversation, he asked me what I do for a living, I told him I sell toy soldiers.
Come to find out, he collects them, talk about a small world. He took very good care of us and got us into a much better mortgage, when he did his follow up call, we agreed to stay in touch. He is now one of my best customers. I also attend a large toy soldier show in Chicago every year, he and his father came to the show one year.
Him and his Dad came to my stand during the show, his Father is a wonderful human being, he and my Dad hit it off right away, they were around the same age, both of them served in the US Military during WWII, my Dad was in the Army, his Dad was in the Marine Corps.
His Dad was a code talker during WWII. Do you know what a code talker is; I'm going to assume you don't, so here goes. A code talker is a native American who served in the US Military, a code was devised in his native language which was used to send and receive important military information, the Japanese whenever they'd intercept one of these were clueless as to the language, native Americans served a vital role in our armed forces using this, it actually goes back to WWI.
My friend (he's a customer, but to me he's a friend, we talk three or four times a month on the phone) and his Dad came to Chicago every year after that. One year, his Dad gave my Dad a GI JOE code talker figure mint in the box that was signed by my friends Dad and five other native American code talkers.
In the 88 years my Dad was on this planet, I saw him cry four times; at his Mothers funeral, his Fathers funeral, when the Red Sox won the WS in 2004 and when my friends Dad gave that figure to him.
My Dad passed away on February 23rd, 2017, he did not come with me to the Chicago show that Fall as a result, when my friends Dad came to my stand and my Dad was not there, he broke down and cried and told me how sorry he was.
It was quite a moment.
An all timer in my life.
That was the last year my friends Dad came to the show.
As a matter of fact, ironically, I just talked to my friend the other day, his Dad is not doing well right now, he's concerned and so am I, but hey, I digress.
Is that a positive enough statement for you?
Regarding your statement about how my comment would go over in a room with "A dozen of us and try playing that out."
Really?
How about if the next time I talk to my friend Chris I'll ask him what he thinks about the Redskins name and I'll report back to you, how's that?
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But that's the thing - BLM isn't the name of a football team. One is a civil rights issue, the other is a nickname. The former, absolutely, because it goes far beyond being offended. The latter...I think either side is a pretty fair position, unless you want to make the case that the name of the team is furthering the abuse or denigration of the NA population in this country.
If you've never experienced, than think about it in a non-racial setting. You're at a comedy club with your wife/gf/so, let's say you go see Dave Chapelle. He drops p*ssy, he drops b*tch, he talks about giving a girl a pearl necklace and yada yada. You're wife is cracking up, but you're steaming because you're offended for her. Only, she's not offended. And in being offended for her, you instead actively insult her by implying she needs you to protect her or you're going to tell her what should offend her.
It's obviously not as easy as "when x number of the group says its an issue, then i can jump in". I think the line of virtue signaling is where you are doing more pushing than supporting, wherever that may fall.
I don't really give a shit about nicknames. Their value, in my mind, is so small that practically any other concern takes precedence.
It's no that I feel so strongly about standing up for a marginalized group in our community that I am demanding this change, as much as it is me not standing up for some fans who want to maintain a nickname.
There were Twitter rumors that the Chiefs were going to sell the naming rights of Arrowhead Stadium to GEHA, but the team has since denied that reporting. Still, a name change there is probably appropriate.
So firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your dad.
Secondly, everybody with even a beginning knowledge of US history, to say nothing of military history specifically, knows about Navajo (and other tribal) code-talkers. They're a credit to the country and we're all in their debt. I'm also happy to stipulate that you personally know more native americans than I do, and perhaps more than most people in this board. However, I don't see what any of that has to do with racist allusions in sports team nicknames.
Thirdly, by "positive statement", I meant one that advances a point of view rather than one that (mockingly, in your case) dismisses or denigrates another's point of view. Several people in this thread have have offered theirs, including Montana. Yours has been the only substantive post here that was (I think) on the side of "don't change it" which didn't offer any sort of argument. Just derisive remarks about others' points of view. There's times that's called-for, but when there's near-unanimity that something's a problem, the burden of proof is kinda on you to say why it's not.
So what I was hoping to hear was your opinion on where one draws the line with respect to racism in team names. The examples you gave, which I guess you thought ridiculous enough to serve as mockery, are actually a good set of test cases. I'd probably put the "Blackhawks" name alongside the Redskins on the side of the line of Chief Wahoo, i.e. in the dustbin. Florida State, on the other hand, is a clear example of using native symbols not as some imagery of raw brutal strength (which of course is the allusion being sought by so many of these team nicknames) but in a spirit of genuine honor and partnership. FSU has done the homework and forged the bonds necessary to say their nickname is different. Has the Washington football team done so? Just the opposite, up until yesterday they've laughed at the idea that that is or should be a consideration. Which is why they've been roundly condemned, both by comfortable whites as well as plenty of the less-privileged, including that native american organization that's been cited a few times now.
I don't think there's any obvious bright line you can draw for acceptable vs unacceptable, but taking a stab at it and defending one's position is, I think, kinda what we're going for here. Insulting everyone else, and then acting like of course you're so right you don't even owe us a statement of your opinion (much less a defense of it), really doesn't add anything at all to the conversation.
I'm half expecting Snyder to say, "After engaging highly regarded consulting firms, undertaking exhaustive studies, conducting hundreds of interviews, and giving the matter the serious and careful deliberation it deserves, I have concluded I really like the name and logo, so fuck off. Go Redskins:
I don’t think I ever said anyone had to be offended by the name. I said I was offended by it, not on behalf of anyone else but on behalf of me. In my opinion the name is offensive on its face, like several other ethnic slurs, but that’s just like my opinion. Obviously many others don’t agree (including some Native Americans) which is why there is still a team with that name. However, because I find it offensive and because I understand that a not insignificant percentage of Native Americans agree, and because generally speaking it takes people like me to support this kind of change before it happens, I support changing the name.
Dave Chapelle’s comedy does not offend me (or my wife) but if I found it offensive it would be because I found offensive, not on her behalf.
Thanks regarding my Dad; not going to lie and as I've told many members here via PM's, every day is a struggle, my Dad and I were extremely close, we got closer the older we got as frankly, I knew our time together on this earth was limited, so I wanted to make every second of time we had together count, every day being a struggle is the price you pay when you love someone with every ounce of your soul, but I'll happily pay that price..
Ok, back to the subject at hand, didn't mean to digress.
You want to know what really upsets me? How native Americans have been treated in this country; their land stolen from them, throw on reservations, then when they were needed by our government in WWI and to a greater extend in WWII, they were dragged off of their reservations and put into military service, then once the wars were won, they were tossed back onto their reservations. They were recognized later on in life for their service; big fucking deal, too little, too late.
It's flat out embarrassing how they've been treated, it sickens and disgusts me.
I object less to the team names than to the mockery, specifically that idiotic tomahawk chop/war chant bullshit or the racist, moronic Chief Wahoo face.
And not to cause a shitstorm here, but at least the Redskins logo is somewhat dignified; the name itself, clearly not so much. And do me a favor; if anyone here does not feel that to be the case, don't go shithouse on me, I made my comment and I'm going to stand by it, it's not cartoonish or offensive looking IMO compared to Chief Wahoo, I hope members here can see the difference like I do.
And I'm sorry if my sarcasm was taken the wrong way by you and others, no harm, no foul, not my intend to in anyway mock or lessen the situation.
I guess my overall point is where do you draw the line; Vikings? They plundered, looted, raped and pillaged. Raiders/Buccaneers/Warriors? Is the word "Indians" really offensive, or again is it the mascot that they got rid of? Yankees? Southerners call Northerners Yankees in a derogatory way; "We don't want Yankees moving here to Texas, stay up north please"...…...…..
The only persons opinion I care about regarding the name Redskins are native Americans; if the overwhelming majority of them don't like it/find it offensive, then get rid of it, I stand behind them and whatever they want.
It's their country afterall.
This is a legitimately solid idea. Granted, Peta would be offended. But I think you're on the right track here, that would be a great name and it would allow the DC football team to keep the Skins moniker.
Regarding the white people offended by proxy - since at least the murder of George Floyd, most of what I have heard/seen/read from my minority friends is the need for people in the majority to not just support their efforts but to be proactive in calling out shit.
It’s a horrid position for minorities to have to say “I’m offended” or to constantly be the ones to point out wrongs or essentially other themselves. There are plenty of instances where something is clearly wrong. Like having a slur as the name of a football team.
Being an ally isn’t about ignoring obvious racism and then patting your black or indigenous friend on the back when they bear the burden of speaking out. It’s calling it out in real time.
It’s a horrid position for minorities to have to say “I’m offended” or to constantly be the ones to point out wrongs or essentially other themselves. There are plenty of instances where something is clearly wrong. Like having a slur as the name of a football team.
Being an ally isn’t about ignoring obvious racism and then patting your black or indigenous friend on the back when they bear the burden of speaking out. It’s calling it out in real time.
I think there is a line, but a racial slur is 100% on one side of it.
In terms of the Indians, I am not offended by it and by all accounts it isn't a terrible term. But Cleveland fucked up with the Wahoo logo. That is what the franchise associated the word "Indian" with. That was there idea of what an Indian is.
It isn't wholly apples to apples, but there were more than a few hockey teams that called themselves the Swastikas in the early 1900's-1920's. Once that legitimate symbol meant something else to people, it was canceled. this despite being a symbol that meant much different things for hundreds (or even thousands) of years.
I agree with 54 that there are lots of things we can be doing for Native Americans that would be way more meaningful for them than changing the name of a football team.
But I also agree with 49-0 that this issue actually isn’t mostly about Native Americans. It’s the idea that in 2020 - not in 1934 but in 2020 - you would make a decision to continue to have as your team’s nickname a reference to anyone’s skin color. Put in yellow, white, blue, brown, black, tan, bronze, or even cafe au lait like Lady Marmalade, it would be an offensive name.
But I also agree with 49-0 that this issue actually isn’t mostly about Native Americans. It’s the idea that in 2020 - not in 1934 but in 2020 - you would make a decision to continue to have as your team’s nickname a reference to anyone’s skin color. Put in yellow, white, blue, brown, black, tan, bronze, or even cafe au lait like Lady Marmalade, it would be an offensive name.
I feel for you in this debate. There's a reason that New England is right up there with New York City as the most despised group of people in America. And it has nothing to do with the Patriots because they hated us when the Patriots should probably have been named The New England Generals, the Red Sox the hapless losers of the postseason and the Bruins the Habs' plucky comic relief.
The next time a New Englander acknowledges that the rest of the world might know better about their own situation will likely be the first.
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For the ensuing riots alone that would be hilarious. Unfortunately corporate America wants to replicate China here. So the official producer of NFL merch is going to force the NFL to make the change by reducing revenue. (But in true Corporate America style the minute the name is changed they'll be out there selling the shit out of retro Redskins merch.)
Coach “Lone Star” Dietz, who that article says pushed for it, was likely not actually a Native American: he was a white man who assumed the identity of a Sioux, at first to dodge the draft during World War 1. He wound up pleading no contest to charges brought against him eventually, after a trial in which everyone from his own childhood acquaintances to the actual Lone Star/One Star's sister testified against him.
See my post here for details: https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/washington-football-team-name-change.30773/#post-3933314
I agree, given the horror show that resulted from American involvement in the war we should honor the man as a national hero.
Yep I read that after posting because all that was new information to me. But thanks for the follow up.
I don’t think this means the rest of that story is untrue. Though who knows....
Blackfeet Pride
I'd imagine that not many on this site have ever spoken to a Blackfeet. They are a resilient people.
And RalphWiggum, I've always respected your posts on this site and your most recent one rings very true as to who you are. Many posters on the site are not as ingenuous as you.
Like this?
I’ve really appreciated your posts on this, and the story about your dad, but this isn’t just about a name. It furthers the ridicule of the people you say you care for. It invites the worst of our culture to think that ridicule is acceptable. It pushes real healing further and further out into the future.
I’ll spoiler this last part showing some fans of the team that‘s an issue in name only because it’s super fucked up. We’ve all seen these types of people in their stands and my whole point is we’ve hand waved it away. The team name is the only reason these photos exist:
Pretty sure this swell fellow is making a White Power sign.
Another guy that has painted his face to honor NA culture I assume.
Let’s see what an Eagles fan has to add...
This is just from a “Redskins fans” google image search. I barely needed to scroll.
Also, this is fucking awesome:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124178677783
and would be way better than this no matter how you slice anything:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283688389369
Thanks for the spoiler; those images are cringeworthy.
You left out that moron at Chiefs games who wears the opposing teams QB jersey with arrows sticking out of it, I bet he's the life of the tailgate party before and after the games.
I'm actually glad this thread exists, the sooner the Redskins change their name the better.
Enough is enough.
You left out that moron at Chiefs games who wears the opposing teams QB jersey with arrows sticking out of it, I bet he's the life of the tailgate party before and after the games.
I'm actually glad this thread exists, the sooner the Redskins change their name the better.
Enough is enough.
I'm not Irish, but I am from Boston and that's been my experience. I'd be fine with changing even the Celtics if I saw any indication it offended Irish-Americans. But I don't.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29411648/coach-ron-rivera-says-working-redskins-owner-new-nicknames
I love that Rivera and Snyder are handling this personally. No need for professionals at a time like this.
More from the actual article:
A combination Native American/military theme, which probably means they're angling to keep the logo. This is going to be a disaster. Just name them the Bulldogs or something and move on.
Although, I will say that a brand new coach personally reshaping the team's identity is very on brand, evoking Lombardi replacing burgundy and gold with the ketchup and mustard that's been in place ever since.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/04/ron-rivera-redskins-name/
A combination Native American/military theme, which probably means they're angling to keep the logo. This is going to be a disaster. Just name them the Bulldogs or something and move on.
Although, I will say that a brand new coach personally reshaping the team's identity is very on brand, evoking Lombardi replacing burgundy and gold with the ketchup and mustard that's been in place ever since.
It’s interesting, because the Celtics have a funny reputation around race of course. They have had a lot of white stars (Cousy, Havlicek, McHale, Bird of course) and had a (great championship) team that was something like 9/12 white. But they were the first team to draft a black player and play five black players (IIRC) and hire a black coach and to have hired three black coaches (I think).
But over the years there have been occasional theories espoused (that I think are crap) that the Celtics played into to “white team” persona with certain player acquisitions. (Not recently as far as I know).
Anyway, there’s no Irish backlash against the name as far as I know BUT I wonder if naming the team after a group of white people plays into that perception of the Celtics as sort of the white fan’s team.
No. I have, however, spoken to Lakota Sioux and Odjibwe and they think the Redskins logo and name is trash. And they are also a “resilient people.” I wouldn’t for a moment presume to think that they speak for all American Indians, though, because that would be really stupid.
Also stupid is pointing to a particular family that gets special treatment from the Redskins, for obvious PR purposes, as being an unbiased voice in the matter. What’s that? There’s disagreement even in their own family? What a shocker.
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Is simply shortening it to the 'Skins, and removing any/all NA imagery from their logo and brand, too cute or still too close to the original? It's what many, if not most of their fans refer to them as anyway. And as mentioned up thread, could also have a pigskin connotation. Not really advocating, just curious.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I know he changed them but they’ve been back to burgundy and gold for a long time, I think since Allen took over right after Lombardi in early 70s. I’d just never heard them referred to as ketchup and mustard.
They dropped the yellow helmet, but they never changed the colors back. I guess the burgundy/maroon/red has ebbed and flowed a bit, but the gold has been yellow ever since.
To further complicate the matter and muddy the Potomac, the Washington DC Football team is going to need a new fight song too.
For those not familar with the stirring Native-American influenced ditty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1zJeGf-gpc
maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda can come up with something.
For those not familar with the stirring Native-American influenced ditty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1zJeGf-gpc
maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda can come up with something.
