Vazquez Placed On The 60 Day DL
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benhogan said:
I think this is the most likely scenario for a long term Vazquez injury. My completely uneducated guess is that unless they found a complete tear of the UCL or something that is 100% unworkable unless it's surgically repaired, they'll attempt the rest and rehab route first. Because if that is ineffective and they end up going the surgical route, having it in June is still going to give him enough recovery time to be ready for spring training 2016.
No sense in expending too many resources trying to bring in a "starter" if plan A is Vazquez returning by Memorial Day and plan B is Swihart potentially being ready in the same time frame. Shouldn't preclude them from bringing in a superior option to Quintero if one becomes available, but there shouldn't be any need for desperation in their search.
Edes said the MRI reveled an issue and Vazquez is going to seek a 2nd opinion. But as ghoff says, Vazquez will not be there on Opening Day.
Do you go with Hanigan and Swihart or Hanigan and Quintero?
Do you go with Hanigan and Swihart or Hanigan and Quintero?
Sure. I was trying to put the brightest face on it, and moreso note that the positional player recovery timeline is not the same as for pitchers.amfox1 said:
RedOctober3829 said:
I agree with benhogan's take. You start with Hanigan/Quintero and move Swihart in after 4-6 weeks. No reason to rush Swihart, especially as it appears that need some polishing of his receiving skills.
DaveRoberts'Shoes said:
Any setback is bad news, but if you are right, this would seem like a better situation than UCL.
Chainsaw318 said:
Understood. It definitely sounds like TJ is needed, though. Note that Matt Wieters had his TJ surgery in mid-June, was only cleared to throw 100% last week (9 months later) and is likely to start the season on the DL.
czar said:
Of course, but you don't "say" that, you "say" he needs some polishing of his receiving skills. Also, it's not like he's hitting like Kris Bryant this spring.
This feels like a knee jerk reaction.jasvlm said:
I'm pretty sure the front office gave a lot of thought to the probability of a Vasquez or Hannigan injury when they signed Quintero this off-season.
Swihart on the opening day roster should not happen if Vasquez is done for the season, starting his clock for 12 days and giving up a year of control is bad roster management.
In those 12 games Blake would start maybe 7 games, the spread between Swihart and Quintero for those games in April is not worth it.
Add in the fact that Swihart has only played a few weeks above AA and could use more seasoning at the AAA level.
Yesterday was my first time getting to watch Swihart, and it was on a 13 inch TV from a hospital bed, but I seem to recall the announcers interviewing someone and talking about how much work he needs on catching the "sinking" pitches. Considering the FO actively sought out high ground ball pitchers who greatly utilize sinking pitches, and the fact that watching him for 6 innings pretty much verified this statement, I am not comfortable with bringing him up to start the season.
I am terrified of the rest of this news on Vazquez, though, because he is an absolute joy to watch behind the plate and I was really looking forward to seeing a full season of him this year. Very much hoping that is is on the minor end of the "shit, we found something" spectrum.
I am terrified of the rest of this news on Vazquez, though, because he is an absolute joy to watch behind the plate and I was really looking forward to seeing a full season of him this year. Very much hoping that is is on the minor end of the "shit, we found something" spectrum.
You can't run a major-league team like a fantasy team, and this'll never happen for logical reasons, but we have a guy on the roster with 539 major-league games as a catcher, and another with 14 big-league catching appearances and another 176 games in the minors. The guys with 539 games has a suitable back-up in the infield, and he's on the last year of his contract, so if his hips give out completely, it'll be sad, but not something we'll be paying for in the future.
Quintero is awful. I'd be fascinated by the fantasy-league approach. Swihart needs some time, and I can't think of anything else to do.
Quintero is awful. I'd be fascinated by the fantasy-league approach. Swihart needs some time, and I can't think of anything else to do.
If Vazquez is out for the season there will almost certainly be a trade. We have a glut of outfielders and more prospects than we know what to do with. Who are some logical and realistic candidates?
mloyko54 said:
Wellington Castillo
Dioner Navarro
Jason Castro
Wilin Rosario
Carlos Ruiz
None of those would be expensive, but they're also uninspiring options. Might as well stick with Hanigan/Quintero and hope Swihart shows himself ready in AAA.
I am missing something here - everybody seems very concerned, yet we have the games best catching prospect, who just put on a show in spring training and a very good veteran. Seems like we are in the best possible position to deal with a loss to Vazquez.
Gets the whole $10 if he promises to keep his distance while he's talking.Papelbon's Poutine said:
Gash Prex said:
Agreed. The idea of making a panic trade is even worse. If you can get a cheap upgrade to Quintero to split time with Hanigan, fine. Other than that, ride it out.
Besides, think of the positive side to this. Cafardo's drumbeat to send Swihart to Philly for Hamels comes to a halt.
Austin Romine is out of options and will seemingly be traded or will need to be placed on waivers. Not sure that a Yankee/Red Sox trade is going to happen but I could see a waiver claim..........Agree with the point not to do anything drastic but rather give Swihart his shot.
He wouldn't offer anything with the bat and is seemingly got one foot in retirement, but if they really valued the stolen strikes that Vaz's framing gave them why not bring in his instructor Jose ? Again the bat is essentially pitcher quality now maybe worse, but it buys you a bit of time to season up Swihart.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/24/jose-molina-joins-the-cardinals-as-a-guest-instructor/
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/24/jose-molina-joins-the-cardinals-as-a-guest-instructor/
koufax32 said:
There's been nothing indicating that from any of the Sox beat guys on twitter. I'd take reports from the Rays broadcasters with a big grain of salt. They may be right, but they also may be talking out of their asses based only on what we already know (the MRI showed "something" and he's seeking a 2nd opinion).
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/12575944/christian-vazquez-boston-red-sox-get-2nd-opinion-elbow-ready-opening-day
EDIT I know this has been reported, but it is still the most recent thing in Twitter.
EDIT I know this has been reported, but it is still the most recent thing in Twitter.
We know they were interested in Ruiz prior to last year, but on a two-year contract. He's now on a two-year contract. But, the Phillies' demands are probably just as relatively ridiculous for him as for Hamels.
The Blue Jays won't want to help out a division rival, and Navarro doesn't offer the kind of defense they want. Defense is also a problem with Willin Rosario. I can't understand why Wellington Castillo has fallen so far in the Cubs eyes unless they have problems with his defense.
Seems to me the best bet is to go with Hannigan as the starter until the All-Star break, and hope Swihart is ready for the 2nd half.
The Blue Jays won't want to help out a division rival, and Navarro doesn't offer the kind of defense they want. Defense is also a problem with Willin Rosario. I can't understand why Wellington Castillo has fallen so far in the Cubs eyes unless they have problems with his defense.
Seems to me the best bet is to go with Hannigan as the starter until the All-Star break, and hope Swihart is ready for the 2nd half.
I'm more than fine with letting Swihart play the majority of games. He'll no doubt go through struggles, but the available alternatives are bleak..
John Henry made comments earlier this offseason about not wanting to/having regrets about rushing players from the minors. I would guess that, for the first couple months at least, they'll try to make do with Hanigan and some other backup C.
mloyko54 said:
I'm on the opposite side. Go with anyone else but Swihart for now - we were looking at Vazquez as a defense-first catcher so we just need catchers who can handle the pitching staff and control the running game. Offense is a bonus with this lineup. Let Swihart get the development time he needs for the first part of the season.
The likelihood is that a defensively-capable backup catcher will become available through waivers, final cuts, etc. to serve on the weaker side of the Hanigan platoon for a couple of months.
Who are the veteran catchers likely to hit waivers this spring? Someone mentioned Romine, and it looks like Bryan Holaday of Detroit will lose his job to the kid James McCann...
Wonder what it would take to get Dan Butler back from the Cubs AAA team? I always thought he''d make a good ML backup and he knows the Sox system pretty well.
moondog80 said:
If he's on the DL, yes, it counts toward his service time. Only way around that is to option him rather than DL him (where presumably he'd sit on Pawtucket's DL instead). But considering they'll want to place him on the 60-day DL in order to gain the 40-man roster spot for Quintero or some other replacement, optioning him probably isn't really an option. And I imagine the MLBPA wouldn't look too kindly on the team doing that either.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
It's not like he's hit enough where optioning wouldn't be justified. But yeah, they'd look idiotic saying that they were planning on optioning him anyway. Though that hasn't stopped Theo from claiming Kris Bryant is being sent down for baseball reasons.
Hanigan has struggled to stay healthy the last couple seasons. He is no sure bet to make it to the AS break.
Danny_Darwin said:
I highly disagree that Jason Castro wouldn't be expensive. Or that he would be uninspiring. Or that trading for him wouldn't be a better option than going with Hanigan/Quintero, but it likely would be cost prohibitive.
If CV is really done for the year, than they need to go find a C. Hanigan can certainly split duties, but the other half of that needs to be better than Quintero. Swihart shouldn't be in the mix, in my opinion. He needs his development time. I think if they plan on him being a starting quality C this season, prior to All Star break, they are making a mistake. YMMV.
I think it lines up nicely for a Castillo trade with Theo. They're not keeping 3 catchers, despite what they may proclaim.
And I would like DRS to return my $5.
I have no interest in a panic move to trade much of anything for a catcher. With this lineup the team can afford to sign or make a minor trade for a good glove no-hit backstop. Sucks about CV, but no knee jerk moves, please. 2016 and beyond is much more wheelhouse-y, contending-wise. 2015, for me anyway, is halfway between bridge year and the first steps toward a sustained run of dominance.
The Rockies are going into the season with 3 catchers, so one of Hundley or (more likely) McKenry could be available. Rosario was mentioned up thread but there's no way he'd be available for cheap, isn't particularly good defensively, and is also in his prime. Someone like Workman would be more valuable to the Rockies than the Sox.
Rudy Pemberton said:
As far as I know, his defensive skills have always been very highly regarded, most particularly his throwing arm. If the Red Sox prioritize catcher defense, I don't see why they'd look any further than Quintero, unless his skills have eroded by now, at the age of 35.
So, from what I've heard, they originally did a noncontrast MRI of his elbow and now they are repeating it with contrast. That means the diagnosis is still in doubt - might be a full UCL, might be a partial. If it's a partial they will almost undoubtedly try to manage it nonoperatively at least to start. If it's full thickness... well, you know the drill. So to speak.
No matter what the 2nd MRI shows, if the ligament is torn, he'll have surgery almost certainly. That way, he'll be ready to go early in 2015, perhaps by April. If they wait to have him try to play through it, and he's on the DL until he is able to play, we're still talking about mid May at the earliest. Then, if he has a setback, or the ligament won't allow him to throw as he needs to, not only does he miss the rest of 2015, but a big chunk of 2016 as well. If the UCL is injured, let him have surgery, and let Hanigan/Quintero share duties. I still favor using Swihart right away IF the coaching staff feels he is big league ready defensively. If they do not, then send him to AAA, hope he hits and learns to play defense, and then bring him up midseason. Sometimes making a bold move works out, especially when you are trying to win now.DaveRoberts'Shoes said:
It's important to remember that Christian Vazquez is an actual human being with an actual elbow, and that Tommy John surgery is an actual surgical procedure with all of the risks inherent in a major surgery. Even pitchers, who face a longer and less certain recovery, often choose to wait and rehab before going under the knife, even when a look at the baseball schedule seems to indicate "the sooner the better".jasvlm said:
He'll have the surgery if and when he decides that it's his best available option.
(Also worth noting that DRS knows exactly what he is talking about on topics such as Tommy John surgery).