VAR What is it good for?

[fletcherpost]

They apparently caught it in under 10 seconds. As a Spurs fan *of course* I would have been like WTF???? but in the end the right call is the right call. There has to be a line somewhere. I don't think 10 seconds would've have crossed that line. That said, the talk of a replay behind closed doors? I mean, come on. I get that's 90% for their fans (and Klopp).

VAR, at least as currently run, sucks. But now that Liverpool is upset it's suddenly a big deal? Did they release that statement after Jota kicked Skipp in the head last year, then scored the winner? Or after the stupid handball call in the UCL Finals?

First things first. Congrats to Spurs for the win. They did nothing wrong. No one with too much in the way of brains thinks replaying the match is anything other than silly.

It's true most people scream loudest when it's their own team being hard done by. But we have to be better than that. We are not most people. From what I've seen this weekend there's a consensus regarding VAR being unfit for purpose that may well lead to positive changes.

It's not that it's Liverpool complaining and Liverpool are this saintly presence in the game. It's that you have people like Gary Neville (Man U), Alan Shearer (Newcastle), Gary Lineker (Everton/Spurs/Barca), Micah Richards (City), Craig Burley (Celtic/Chelsea) and loads of other ex players and managers (to go along with the coterie of ex Liverpool players) all more or less singing from the same hymn sheet. Did it have to be Liverpool? I don't think so. I think it had to be an incident of absolute incompetence mixed with a lack of transparency during a show piece match that the world was watching.

I new it was gonna be a game changer the second i heard Gary Neville's reaction to finding out the PGMOL had released a statement. Full disclosure Gary Neville was doing the co commentary for Sky Tv on the match. I can't listen to Gary when he's doing Liverpool matches, I'll seek out a stream of some other broadcaster just to avoid him. He's Man Utd through and though, the last thing he wants in a footballing sense is for Liverpool to do well. After the match he goes down pitch side to do some punditry with whoever is on punditry duties. His first words when the news came through was 'Oh dear. (Pause.) Oh dear.' (I translated this as 'This is big. This is really big') And if you can get Neville's dulcet tones in your ear and you know how he sounds when he slips into gravitas, well then you know. I'd say Gary Neville is the ex player with the most clout in the UK, when he talks, everyone in the game listens, like they really listen - and he knows it too. Once you add Shearer and Lineker and Ian Wright it becomes a different matter in terms of scrutiny.

And that's when i new it was different. Not cos it's Liverpool but cos a died in the wool Utd legend knew this was a big one. That's what it takes. When influential people can put aside their club loyalties and be objective. I think it hits you guys different in the USA...i don't think you appreciate how big some of these ex players are - they move the needle. I think it was only a matter of time. I think if the same incident happens and its City v Arsenal we have the same outcome and aftermath. If it's Burnley v Palace we don't, and i think that's a problem too.

By the way i was gutted when Ange left Celtic, I knew it was a good match him going to Spurs. I've loved watching Spurs this season. I'd love Spurs to get top 4 and maybe even win the FA cup.
I love Liverpool and have done ever since Kennny got the winning goal v Bruges. I try to keep it neutral though. I want to see a fairly officiated match and let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with Spurs taking all three points from the match. Anyone caught racially abusing Udogie i want them in the dock.

 

[coremiller]

For me, there's a big difference between VAR screwing up judgment calls (borderline red cards, marginal penalties, etc.) and VAR screwing up what should be basics like communicating to VAR what the call on the field was, remembering to draw the offside lines, drawing the lines on the correct player, etc. You can never totally eliminate the former, and the best we can hope is that VAR prevents the most egregious errors that would otherwise have occurred. But the latter can't be tolerated.

What's so strange is that VAR seems to work pretty well outside of England. We've been through a few major international tournaments with VAR now and I don't remember any major VAR controversies. Is this kind of crap happening in Germany and Spain? Why is England so hopeless?

 

[Zososoxfan]

For me, there's a big difference between VAR screwing up judgment calls (borderline red cards, marginal penalties, etc.) and VAR screwing up what should be basics like communicating to VAR what the call on the field was, remembering to draw the offside lines, drawing the lines on the correct player, etc. You can never totally eliminate the former, and the best we can hope is that VAR prevents the most egregious errors that would otherwise have occurred. But the latter can't be tolerated.

What's so strange is that VAR seems to work pretty well outside of England. We've been through a few major international tournaments with VAR now and I don't remember any major VAR controversies. Is this kind of crap happening in Germany and Spain? Why is England so hopeless?

Yeah, this is what one of the Spurs podcasts was saying. If there was miscommunication amongst the refs about the initial call, right when Spurs put the ball down to take the FK from the offside call, why didn't the VAR refs call into the main ref and say, "wait a tick...we said call stands, goal. What's going on?" It really does seem like EPL refs are doing a poor job. And I'm not laying it all at their feet either--that's too easy. The rules must be problematic as is the whole VAR setup. Regardless, during the next international break, they really need to sit down and rework this. Kinda like when the NBA switched to synthetic bballs, and reverted midseason.

 

[swiftaw]

What's so strange is that VAR seems to work pretty well outside of England. We've been through a few major international tournaments with VAR now and I don't remember any major VAR controversies. Is this kind of crap happening in Germany and Spain? Why is England so hopeless?

Thats a question I've been asking myself too. It seems like they've chosen to implement it in the worst way possible (maybe to placate the refs union?).

Here's what I'd do:

1. All communication between on-filed ref and VAR is broadcast live on the tv feed (they do this in rugby and cricket and it works well).
2. People working VAR shouldn't be the same people as working as on-field refs. 2 separate entities, so their's no sense of "protecting ones own"
3. Replays for penalties / red cards need to be shows at full speed. Slow motion and pausing will always make something look bad.
4. Restrict replay reviews to 30 seconds. If you can't tell something in 30 seconds it wasn't clear and obvious.

 

[lars10]

First things first. Congrats to Spurs for the win. They did nothing wrong. No one with too much in the way of brains thinks replaying the match is anything other than silly.

It's true most people scream loudest when it's their own team being hard done by. But we have to be better than that. We are not most people. From what I've seen this weekend there's a consensus regarding VAR being unfit for purpose that may well lead to positive changes.

It's not that it's Liverpool complaining and Liverpool are this saintly presence in the game. It's that you have people like Gary Neville (Man U), Alan Shearer (Newcastle), Gary Lineker (Everton/Spurs/Barca), Micah Richards (City), Craig Burley (Celtic/Chelsea) and loads of other ex players and managers (to go along with the coterie of ex Liverpool players) all more or less singing from the same hymn sheet. Did it have to be Liverpool? I don't think so. I think it had to be an incident of absolute incompetence mixed with a lack of transparency during a show piece match that the world was watching.

I new it was gonna be a game changer the second i heard Gary Neville's reaction to finding out the PGMOL had released a statement. Full disclosure Gary Neville was doing the co commentary for Sky Tv on the match. I can't listen to Gary when he's doing Liverpool matches, I'll seek out a stream of some other broadcaster just to avoid him. He's Man Utd through and though, the last thing he wants in a footballing sense is for Liverpool to do well. After the match he goes down pitch side to do some punditry with whoever is on punditry duties. His first words when the news came through was 'Oh dear. (Pause.) Oh dear.' (I translated this as 'This is big. This is really big') And if you can get Neville's dulcet tones in your ear and you know how he sounds when he slips into gravitas, well then you know. I'd say Gary Neville is the ex player with the most clout in the UK, when he talks, everyone in the game listens, like they really listen - and he knows it too. Once you add Shearer and Lineker and Ian Wright it becomes a different matter in terms of scrutiny.

And that's when i new it was different. Not cos it's Liverpool but cos a died in the wool Utd legend knew this was a big one. That's what it takes. When influential people can put aside their club loyalties and be objective. I think it hits you guys different in the USA...i don't think you appreciate how big some of these ex players are - they move the needle. I think it was only a matter of time. I think if the same incident happens and its City v Arsenal we have the same outcome and aftermath. If it's Burnley v Palace we don't, and i think that's a problem too.

By the way i was gutted when Ange left Celtic, I knew it was a good match him going to Spurs. I've loved watching Spurs this season. I'd love Spurs to get top 4 and maybe even win the FA cup.
I love Liverpool and have done ever since Kennny got the winning goal v Bruges. I try to keep it neutral though. I want to see a fairly officiated match and let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with Spurs taking all three points from the match. Anyone caught racially abusing Udogie i want them in the dock.

Last year Arsenal, in a title race, had a goal disallowed for offside.. he wasn’t… the VAR ref ‘forgot’ or ‘didn’t’ draw a line as part of the check before ruling the call to stand. It’s almost literally the only thing he had to do and he somehow forgot to do it.. and nothing changed.

The list of VAR misses and excuses is long as posted above. This call may be remembered after the season.. maybe not… but if history is any indication there won’t be any changes.

edit: I misremembered.. it was a goal against not for and the player was off not on... there have been so many bad decisions it’s hard to keep track.
https://www.the-sun.com/sport/7369892/var-brentford-arsenal-mark-halsey/amp/

 

[candylandriots]

@Mighty Joe Young I can tell you with the Bundesliga, at least, while people still grumble, it’s light years better than what we see in England - both in terms of overall acceptance and actual outcomes. I posted an article from The Athletic in the other VAR thread that is worth reading if you’re interested in seeing how it’s done in Germany.

edit you too @coremiller and @swiftaw

 

[fletcherpost]

Last year Arsenal, in a title race, had a goal disallowed for offside.. he wasn’t… the VAR ref ‘forgot’ or ‘didn’t’ draw a line as part of the check before ruling the call to stand. It’s almost literally the only thing he had to do and he somehow forgot to do it.. and nothing changed.

The list of VAR misses and excuses is long as posted above. This call may be remembered after the season.. maybe not… but if history is any indication there won’t be any changes.

edit: I misremembered.. it was a goal against not for and the player was off not on... there have been so many bad decisions it’s hard to keep track.
https://www.the-sun.com/sport/7369892/var-brentford-arsenal-mark-halsey/amp/

Yeah that one was a shocker.

But it was mid season...mid season malaise where we dig in and accept the bullshit whilst hoping for a better future.

We're at the start of a new season...a new dawn, early season optimism and idealism abounds. We've not been battered by incompetence nor sodomized by presumption of same. We're wearie but we still remember summer when there was no footie and how we longed for a brave new world of fair and accountable football and officaldom.

Not to mention Liverpool have went about the post match fall out with strategic agression. From Klopp's post match comments where he tended to avoid the incendiary to the offical statement by Liverpool FC and now an offical request...

Liverpool have asked PGMOL for audio of discussions between the match officials in Saturday's 2-1 defeat at Tottenham.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66987861

Meanwhile the topic has been discussed all day on Talksport (UK's biggest sports chat radio station) and i expect it to be discussed on Monday Night footie on Sky TV. I don't think this is going away.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think what happens is that whenever there is a problem, they come up with a solution to what happened. But only what happened. And then it has unintended consequences, so they "fix" those consequences. And then it has unanticipated consequences. And it's just turtles all the way down.

I think Fletch is kind of right that the real surprise here is how the whole operation does not appear to be consistent with what we imagine it must be given the stakes. You have guys sitting in a room. They are getting memos that says things like "VAR is taking too long, if it's clear and obvious you'll know," and they probably have multiple games on at once so guy in chair A can't exactly hear the commentary of his game and so misunderstood it was not called a goal. Or maybe he had to watch two games and got distracted.

I am hopeful like Fletch that we have reached a critical mass. I tend to doubt it. I think something will come out of this -- some sort of principle or something that avoids a repeat of the situation that happened this weekend. Like, the ref on the field will have to communicate clearly what happened before VAR gives its ruling, or whatever. But that will not solve the next problem. Because nobody seems to be very forward looking on any of this, and they will band-aid it, when what really needs to happen is for it to be rebuilt and re-conceptualized from the ground up.

 

[lars10]

Yeah that one was a shocker.

But it was mid season...mid season malaise where we dig in and accept the bullshit whilst hoping for a better future.

We're at the start of a new season...a new dawn, early season optimism and idealism abounds. We've not been battered by incompetence nor sodomized by presumption of same. We're wearie but we still remember summer when there was no footie and how we longed for a brave new world of fair and accountable football and officaldom.

Not to mention Liverpool have went about the post match fall out with strategic agression. From Klopp's post match comments where he tended to avoid the incendiary to the offical statement by Liverpool FC and now an offical request...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66987861

Meanwhile the topic has been discussed all day on Talksport (UK's biggest sports chat radio station) and i expect it to be discussed on Monday Night footie on Sky TV. I don't think this is going away.

I think the major difference here is that this is your team that it happened to . Perhaps it's different, but there have been some shockingly bad decisions that have changed nothing...or at least haven't stopped additional incompetence from happening.

Feels a bit like being a Pats fan when Brady was suspended for 'more likely than not' knowing about something that didn't happen whilst denying that science exists. We all looked around and said 'surely this will change something'.. Not sure which of the EPL or NFL would seem to care less about fan's opinions.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think the major difference here is that this is your team that it happened to . Perhaps it's different, but there have been some shockingly bad decisions that have changed nothing...or at least haven't stopped additional incompetence from happening.

Feels a bit like being a Pats fan when Brady was suspended for 'more likely than not' knowing about something that didn't happen whilst denying that science exists. We all looked around and said 'surely this will change something'.. Not sure which of the EPL or NFL would seem to care less about fan's opinions.

I think the problem is exactly what you say at the beginning -- for the most part whether or not you care about these issues depends on who you support. New England fans do not care about the Saints and bountygate, which people seem to suggest was a railroading. I'm guessing Saints fans have their book about why it was just as bad as we do for deflated footballs. And so it goes.

Fletch seems to think that this weekend was so bad that it transcends the usual tribalism that keep these things from ever actually being fixed. I'm skeptical. I remember that there was a call like that in American football a few years back. A Rams guy absolutely trucked a Saints player in the NFC Championship game, and no pass interference was called. It was close to outcome determinative. It reached a critical mass. it made non-sports news programs. It was a very big deal. Lots of outrage. They changed the rule to deal with the problem the next year -- they made pass interference reviewable, but then everyone just decided they liked it the old way and so they quietly removed the new rule a year or two later.

 

[CodPiece XL]

I just wish they do away with it completely. Yes, sometimes your team gets fucked and it’s obvious. You’re angry. Football is about expressing yourself, cheering a goal in real time. Not waiting around to find out if the goal stands or not. It’s not perfect, it never has been. I’d rather deal with the inherent warts than deal with VAR, because it too has shown to be fallible. And don’t get me started on the hand ball issue rule changes. I’m pretty sure some of those wankers haven’t played the game and don’t understand how you extend out your arms for balance. It’s fucking comical how defenders are tucking their arms behind their backs in defending a cross. That’s far from natural.

 

[Jimy Hendrix]

I still can’t get my head around how it’s worse in England than anywhere else. Sometimes I feel like the rest of the world started from “We’re doing VAR I guess” and worked from that to make it as good as possible and England started with “VAR is gonna be shit!” and worked backwards to make it as bad as it could be so they could feel justified about what they assumed from the jump.

 

[lars10]

I just wish they do away with it completely. Yes, sometimes your team gets fucked and it’s obvious. You’re angry. Football is about expressing yourself, cheering a goal in real time. Not waiting around to find out if the goal stands or not. It’s not perfect, it never has been. I’d rather deal with the inherent warts than deal with VAR, because it too has shown to be fallible. And don’t get me started on the hand ball issue rule changes. I’m pretty sure some of those wankers haven’t played the game and don’t understand how you extend out your arms for balance. It’s fucking comical how defenders are tucking their arms behind their backs in defending a cross. That’s far from natural.

It's like hockey.. where you can now go back well before the goal was scored to see if there was something in the build up to the goal was missed... which I think isn't really the intent in a way. Reviews take longer and offer for more reasons to not have a goal..in sports where goals are few and far between already... and are hugely important to how the game is played if there is the goal vs. if there isn't. In other sports it's not quite as important because the scoring opportunities are usually a lot more plentiful.

 

[DJnVa]

Here's the audio:



No, as a Spurs fan, I say "Oh well!" But as a soccer fan, they realized pretty quickly that there was a fuck up. Just stop the game. At the end of the day, I would have whined a bit and posted "It's only cuz it's Liverpool!" but that's not anything subjective that people can disagree on. It's pretty clearly a different level of fuck up.

 

[SocrManiac]

Anthony Taylor has been demoted for the weekend (except as VAR for Liverpool/Luton) for this penalty call: View: https://twitter.com/WFTV46/status/1720758082014450157


The VAR for the game wasn’t punished.

I mean, what the hell? Mistakes happen on the pitch, that’s literally what VAR is for. This is so fundamentally broken I can’t even wrap my brain around it.

 

[shaggydog2000]

So the NFL have had goal line cams for almost a decade. It appears that Germany has them as well. Why is it that the best angle of an out of bounds the EPL can give their VAR officials is this weird off angle one that is completely indeterminate? I'm not saying I know it was out. I have no idea because I never saw a good shot of it, and it seems like that's not that hard to do. I get that the NFL has a lot more money than most EPL teams and can put cameras on everything, but watching an NFL game has always provided so many camera angles for review, and there are just so many VAR incidents where they have no good shot of important things happening that it frustrates me. I think they need to start spending some cash to make sure this system has what it needs to actually work the way the PGMOL acts like it does.

 

[coremiller]

Remember, these are the same people who, despite being the richest soccer league in the world, refused to stump a few million for the semi-automated offside system that FIFA and UEFA use, so instead we get subjected to these torturous interminable line-drawing exercises. They are cheap bastards.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Never mind.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

This apparently is real:
View: https://twitter.com/StokeyyG2/status/1721832357726933174

3rd November: Anthony Taylor is demoted to the Championship for one game.
4th November: Anthony Taylor makes horror decision in Preston vs Coventry.
7th November: Anthony Taylor is given Chelsea vs Man City. Make it make sense.

PGMOL accountability in action!

 

[singaporesoxfan]

That’s the problem right there, not VAR. if fundamentally PGMOL culture is to circle the wagons and VAR refs have as their priority reinforcing the infallibility of their colleagues on the field, rather than getting decisions right, then no amount of tech or enhancement of the VAR process is going to work

 

[candylandriots]

That’s the problem right there, not VAR. if fundamentally PGMOL culture is to circle the wagons and VAR refs have as their priority reinforcing the infallibility of their colleagues on the field, rather than getting decisions right, then no amount of tech or enhancement of the VAR process is going to work

I’ve mentioned this before, but we even have the control for this experiment in Germany. The Bundesliga has centralized and separated VAR in Köln. People grumble, but I seriously can’t remember anything near the magnitude of the messes that there have been in England. Part of that is the greater visibility and interest in the EPL, but I probably watch equal amounts of Bundesliga and EPL, and the quality of VAR decisions, and their speed, is not even close between the two leagues.

 

[Jettisoned]

The goal of video review should be to go back and fix crazy, game-ruining referee mistakes like goalscorers being offside by metres and giving the wrong player/team a red card or something. The spirit of the offside and touchline rules is to contain the ball and players in a finite space so the game is better. If the margin of an offside or a ball going over the touchline is so small that it's imperceptible to human senses in real time then there isn't really an unfair advantage being created by it, so there's no reason to go back and check for it on every goal.

 

[Vinho Tinto]

The spirit of the offside and touchline rules is to contain the ball and players in a finite space so the game is better.

This is the way, but at some point it has become about maintaining the use of offside as a defensive tactic.

 

[soxhop411]

View: https://twitter.com/NBCSportsSoccer/status/1724523703113785650


regardless of if you agree or disagree with the car, every sport needs to be doing this more. Makes it extremely transparent about waht was being discussed with the VAR/Replay room

 

[SocrManiac]

Releasing choice reviews after the fact doesn’t encourage me on transparency. Real-time is the only way to build trust.

 

[teddykgb]

The desire to be fast is really not helping them there. They’re trying to clear so many incidents so fast that theres no time to discuss them.

what do people want to happen in that situation? I’d prefer there’s just no var but if there is then are we ok with a 5 minute check? I think it’s really different to say “no conclusive evidence” for 2 of the checks (ball out of play and offside) from the result a fan feels which is “goal”. Basically this hinged on the VAR ref deciding the push wasn’t much of one. Probably if you’re doing Var to the moving “get it right” standard they’re drifting toward then you have to take more time to show the on field ref that potential foul and let him make the call. But if they send him over there with a still of that photo you’re gonna get one of those “there’s a hand on his back you have to call it decisions”.

There are many difficulties in the VAR debate but fundamentally I think the problem is that we as fans say we want one thing ( quick reviews, deference to call on pitch) but demand justice when the calls go against us. This poster included, it’s really difficult to watch a tough call go against your team in slow motion and not feel that the ref is blind (or in the case of many of you, biased). But the uproar over mistakes is causing them to chase accuracy and get involved in more decisions. Plus as anyone would have predicted, they’re adapting to calling less on the pitch and are figuring VAR can sort it out but that makes it impossible to have deference to the call on the pitch because the ref on the pitch might have called it differently in a better universe where VaR wasn’t inflicted upon us.

I think it was Postecoglu who was saying a few weeks back that we just need to go back to being grown ups who can handle bad calls going against us. It’s how it always was and always will be. I’m not saying I don’t fall into this trap and this stuff has driven me crazy in the past but I hear what I hear in that video and it’s completely unreasonable to try to talk that out and find the relevant camera angles and manage all of the rules points in a reasonable amount of time. This is what our brains do in milliseconds I don’t think that elongated process is really even improving it that much. If they must persist with this, I think I’d rather they use the pitch side screens more and have the ref waddle over and watch in real time. There’s an accountability to being the ref on the pitch and the ref on the pitch sets the standards for the day on how much contact is being allowed and which player is being a reckless jackass. It’s not that I think they’re particularly good but I don’t think they’re being improved much by having more chefs in the kitchen

 

[the1andonly3003]

This Howard Webb guy...could have a career in media...

 

[Zososoxfan]

View: https://twitter.com/NBCSportsSoccer/status/1724523703113785650


regardless of if you agree or disagree with the car, every sport needs to be doing this more. Makes it extremely transparent about waht was being discussed with the VAR/Replay room

The desire to be fast is really not helping them there. They’re trying to clear so many incidents so fast that theres no time to discuss them.

what do people want to happen in that situation? I’d prefer there’s just no var but if there is then are we ok with a 5 minute check? I think it’s really different to say “no conclusive evidence” for 2 of the checks (ball out of play and offside) from the result a fan feels which is “goal”. Basically this hinged on the VAR ref deciding the push wasn’t much of one. Probably if you’re doing Var to the moving “get it right” standard they’re drifting toward then you have to take more time to show the on field ref that potential foul and let him make the call. But if they send him over there with a still of that photo you’re gonna get one of those “there’s a hand on his back you have to call it decisions”.

There are many difficulties in the VAR debate but fundamentally I think the problem is that we as fans say we want one thing ( quick reviews, deference to call on pitch) but demand justice when the calls go against us. This poster included, it’s really difficult to watch a tough call go against your team in slow motion and not feel that the ref is blind (or in the case of many of you, biased). But the uproar over mistakes is causing them to chase accuracy and get involved in more decisions. Plus as anyone would have predicted, they’re adapting to calling less on the pitch and are figuring VAR can sort it out but that makes it impossible to have deference to the call on the pitch because the ref on the pitch might have called it differently in a better universe where VaR wasn’t inflicted upon us.

I think it was Postecoglu who was saying a few weeks back that we just need to go back to being grown ups who can handle bad calls going against us. It’s how it always was and always will be. I’m not saying I don’t fall into this trap and this stuff has driven me crazy in the past but I hear what I hear in that video and it’s completely unreasonable to try to talk that out and find the relevant camera angles and manage all of the rules points in a reasonable amount of time. This is what our brains do in milliseconds I don’t think that elongated process is really even improving it that much. If they must persist with this, I think I’d rather they use the pitch side screens more and have the ref waddle over and watch in real time. There’s an accountability to being the ref on the pitch and the ref on the pitch sets the standards for the day on how much contact is being allowed and which player is being a reckless jackass. It’s not that I think they’re particularly good but I don’t think they’re being improved much by having more chefs in the kitchen

I feel like they only needed to clear the out of bounds decision and shouldn't have reviewed the back post challenge. The ref and his linesmen crew need to be responsible for making or not making that call, and VAR should only intervene in foul situations like that when there's a dangerous play involved (i.e., involving a card potentially). I'd have preferred a quicker offside check as well--the standard for reversal is higher and needs to be refereed accordingly.

In other words, that review should've ended at around 1:45, and the review began after the ref gave VAR the on-field decision at 0:45. I hate to say it, but the NFL's framework of classifying what calls are reviewable is probably helpful. And instituting a 1-minute cap on reviews should avoid reviewing too many issues on a given play.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

So - Howard Webb explains why the delayed VAR call in the the Liverpool/Palace game was correct.


Howard Webb explains error in decision against Liverpool as audio released
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/have-look-this-howard-webb-28278272?utm_source=app

From the audio - VAR is instructing - not suggesting or questioning or anything like that - Instructing the ref to call a PEN

VAR: Mads [Madley], stop the game, stop the game, stop the game. I'm going to recommend an on-field review for a potential penalty.

Ref: So I'm awarding a penalty and no further discipline, yeah? Happy with that?

VAR. Confirmed, confirmed.

So much for not re-refereeing the game and “the onfield ref has the final say” rubbish.

 

[PedroSpecialK]

Not really surprising... PGMOL and the NHL DoPS are neck-and-neck when it comes to making things up as they go along

FWIW -- the penalty was ultimately the correct decision, and I fully believe in VAR having the power to act as an autonomous off-field official, but as you note the problem is that's not their job right now

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Hard to remember too many potential penalty checks that do not result in the penalty being given.

 

[rguilmar]

Well, I hadn’t heard of this happening before…

Genk-Anderlecht game which was played on the 23rd December 2023 will be REPLAYED. Reason: Big VAR penalty error in the match. Genk took this to court and won the case!

https://x.com/eurofootcom/status/1750925949640544537?s=20

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Hallelujah !!! Let the bells ring out and the banners fly !!!

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5495032/2024/05/15/premier-league-var-vote/?source=user_shared_article

Premier League to vote on scrapping VAR

It won’t happen of course but one can dream.

 

[PedroSpecialK]

If they put the technology in the hands of competent, non-conflicted people, it can be used well. See: Rugby, nearly any other domestic league La Liga aside

 

[Theodoric]

If they put the technology in the hands of competent, non-conflicted people, it can be used well. See: Rugby, nearly any other domestic league La Liga aside

Yep.

1. Semi-automated offside, ideally with about a one foot (distance not body part) buffer zone because no one likes to see a goal chalked off by a toe nail. Still need some human management in case the computer gets confused by the keeper not being one of the last two defenders or there's a defender over the by-line and not obviously seen.

2. Fix the handball rule in some at least somewhat objective fashion. These calls aren't VAR's fault; the problem is that no one of any expertise, from referee down to casual fan, has any understanding of what a handball is anymore.

3. Absolutely rugby. Give us the communications in near enough to real time, so we can understand what's going on. E.g. ref "no penalty defender got the ball"; VAR "no he didn't, now go over to the monitor and decide if there was enough contact for a penalty".

 

[rguilmar]

If they put the technology in the hands of competent, non-conflicted people, it can be used well. See: Rugby, nearly any other domestic league La Liga aside

I do think VAR in La Liga this season has been handled (pun intended) pretty well. I can only think of one game where it was an issue, and I think the general feeling is that the problem stemmed from the VAR official being the senior most referee and the on field referee being new. “Clear and Obvious” became “Well, the veteran official called for me to review it so I must be wrong”. Beyond that, it’s been pretty well handled. Of course there is the unceasing controversies involving Real Madrid and Barcelona, usually in the form of fans complaining about how the other team benefited from VAR.

If your argument is that La Liga and the Spanish Federation is run by corrupt individuals who only seem to get things right by accident, well yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that.

 

[trs]

I think it would be an absolute mistake to remove VAR. No one truly wants to go back to games and leagues being decided by refereeing mistakes no matter how much it feels good to celebrate. The Swedish league example is ridiculous -- no one watches the Swedish league. Half the stadiums fit less than 15,000 spectators and are not suited to camera coverage that allow the barrage of camera angles that we get in most La Liga, Premiership, Serie A stadiums. The one stationary camera at midfield at Strandvallen isn't going to give much clear and obvious evidence.

On the main board people are crying out for automated balls and strikes because of how hard it is to evaluate whether a ball passed through a three-dimensional pentagonal cube. One guy running around the field trying to tell whether someone's heel was clipped 30 meters away from him and whether that contact was "enough" or occurred well over a white line drawn on the pitch also has a pretty damn difficult job. Plus, at least in Spain, he's dealing with 22 guys who can't wait to pirouette their way into a penalty. That's not even looking at the doubly-ridiculous responsibilities of the line judges who somehow need to look at two different spots on the pitch at the exact same time while crab-running along the sideline to maintain a perfect right angle with the foremost attacker to determine offside. Oh and if the ball goes out of bounds make sure you know who touched it last. As we saw in the Champions semis, when it's close, they get this right about as frequently as an unweighted coin.

Anyway, VAR is definitely not perfect. However, going back to relying entirely on 3 people racing around a field trying to keep track of a moving ball and 22 others in a sport where 1 goal very frequently decides entire games? No thanks.

Yeah, to a extent I get the emotional appeal of some of those negative repercussions listed in the Athletic article. Most of those though are due to execution, and that certainly should be open to criticism and adjustments, but let's keep the baby in the bathtub. There have been some wonderful positive repercussions too, beyond just getting more calls right. Anecdotally it seems diving (in La Liga) has been reduced, specifically in the penalty area; yes there might be some erosion of trust, but it's been great to see refs just tell players to shut the fuck up and wait, someone upstairs is looking at it; and it's been nice to have games decided by actual goals for the most part -- again look at the reactions to not being able to check the offside call between Munich and Madrid. We want that back as the norm? Just so Joselu could celebrate right away?

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

No matter how much you fix it the fundamental problem will remain - you can’t cheer. It totally diminishes the fan experience. I’d trade 50 bad calls a year for that immediacy back. It’s ruined the game.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

A number of accounts on Twitter, at least one of whom has a very good track record with this kind of stuff in my experience, are claiming that VAR never checked to see whether KDB was offside on the goal against Spurs that made it 1-0.

He very well may be onside here. I really have no idea. But its flabbergasting that they wouldn't draw the lines on a decision this tight, especially given the stakes of that match. The implementation of this system continues to be awful.

 

[wonderland]

I understand your point but on the flip side, I don’t want that called off. It’s just so tight. I only want to see an offside call made where it is clear the player is off.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I understand your point but on the flip side, I don’t want that called off. It’s just so tight. I only want to see an offside call made where it is clear the player is off.

I don't necessarily disagree but think that's a separate issue. They have a system in place, the foundation of it is that they draw the lines when a decision is reasonably close to make sure they get it "right," and they seem to have just failed to do that for inexplicable reasons in one of the highest stakes matches of the year despite this decision obviously looking very close.

 

[the1andonly3003]

There is a solution to the problem: us
https://x.com/FA_PGMOL/status/1808802939651436892

 

[rguilmar]

I think that the call was the right one (offside) but the line is comical

View: https://twitter.com/managertactical/status/1815577852294635523?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ

 

[rguilmar]

Based on comments here and elsewhere, it seems like La Liga has handled VAR much better than other leagues, but how a ref can see Endrick knee an opponent in the nuts and not show him a red card is beyond me.

View: https://twitter.com/herculezg/status/1838681379485425741?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ

View: https://twitter.com/sulimelilla/status/1838682836167008722?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ

 

[the1andonly3003]

I'd expect Howard Webb will get interviewed by Michael Owen to explain those yellow cards for kicking the ball away pretty soon....

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

The Bruno red is a great example of why VAR is fundamentally broken. Very awkward challenge intended to be a professional foul to stop the break but wasn’t dangerous and very easy for the onfield referee to get wrong in the moment given the height of the foot. I’ve yet to see anybody with access to replay argue for it being a red, he doesn’t really touch him with the studs and there’s no force in any of it. And I’m sure the onfield referee would give yellow not red there if he had access to replay. Yet VAR won’t intervene because the system is not at all geared toward making the right call, it’s just designed to uphold virtually any decision on the pitch while also finding random stupid reasons to disallow goals every once in a while.

 

[SocrManiac]

Agreed. The charter is fundamentally broken. There isn’t any interest in ensuring the match is called correctly, just to show how incredibly accurate the match officials are in real time.

VAR is there to correct the Bruno red. It didn’t even try. What’s the point?

 

[teddykgb]

Counterpoint: bad things happened to Man United so VAR is good for something

Counter counter point: we might lose ETH over this and he's done a fantastic job of continuing mediocrity or worse over there

I fundamentally agree with both of you that VAR needs to find a way to be more focused on getting it right but I don't see em environment where fans of the Prem are going to handle the subjectivity that requires well. Not looking to rehash City v Arsenal at all because that's hardly the only incident we have had recently where fans are beside themselves with accusations of bias and corruption. By sticking to defined standards, as stuffy and backwards as they are, they at least ameliorate some of this although of course not particularly well. I just really wonder if fans are ready to accept that the VAR jumped in because they felt like the ref got this one wrong. That usually leads to "but then this other thing happened in the match that was clearly wrong why didn't he jump in there" kind of stuff and you might just end up with a still broken system that still pisses everyone off which is now even more arbitrary. Like if VAR intervenes on Bruno decision yesterday then United fans are upset and we get 200 examples of similar tackles which received a red and the merry go round continues

I think it's a really hard problem to fix. I basically quit watching the NFL 7/8 years ago as every game was marred by Zapruder film analysis of pass interference and it felt completely pointless to watch. I have taken in a few games recently and the NFL seems to have gotten out of that knot perhaps the Prem needs to see how they got out of it (or I'm far enough removed that they haven't and I'm just not watching it to see that the problem persists)

I think most reasonable people would be into some system that didn't let the VAR and on field ref sort of conspire to create a middle ground where nobody is ever wrong or at fault. The ref on the field tends to assume the VAR will correct egregious errors and then the VAR assumes the on pitch call is correct and should be preserved at all costs and that creates this weird middle ground of calls where each is relying on the other to have gotten it right but both are showing deference. Probably it would be best to just use the big screens and show the incidents live to the ref and let them overrule themselves. That rugby style solution seems to have the most integrity to me in that the original ref knows what he thinks he saw and why he called and with the benefit of a quick replay or other angle can reverse himself or not. Just don't see any leagues trending in this direction and it's certainly not where the NFL went either

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I think the system would be a million times better if VAR was only used for offsides and did-it-cross-the-goal-line kind of decisions and then each manager was given one challenge per match for penalty or red card situations. After a challenge, have the onfield referee look at a variety of video replays while talking it through with referees in the booth, like in the NFL, and have their directive be to make the best call given all the evidence and angles they had, with no assumption that the initial call was correct and that only a clear and obvious error can be overturned. Maybe you do a thing like the NFL where the manager gets a second challenge if he wins the first one.

 

[SocrManiac]

I think the system would be a million times better if VAR was only used for offsides and did-it-cross-the-goal-line kind of decisions and then each manager was given one challenge per match for penalty or red card situations. After a challenge, have the onfield referee look at a variety of video replays while talking it through with referees in the booth, like in the NFL, and have their directive be to make the best call given all the evidence and angles they had, with no assumption that the initial call was correct and that only a clear and obvious error can be overturned. Maybe you do a thing like the NFL where the manager gets a second challenge if he wins the first one.

I like this, with a "but." I think this crop of referees does have enough built-in bias and ego that personality conflicts come in to play. VAR referees need to be an independent branch. Use the challenge, the third party looks at it, call it done.