It’s a red. We’ve seen it given as such. I assume this got caught in a weird VAR area, like everything seems to. The ref made a decision, it isn’t a clear and obvious error, blah blah blah. Bullshit. Fix the call.
VAR What is it good for?
- Thread starter Mighty Joe Young
- Start date
In the USA U-20 vs Mexico U-20 match, after a header and partial clearance in the box, a defender then picked up and dribbled the ball with his hand like a basketball because, we can only assume, he thought a whistle had blown, or surely must have blown, and either way there's no point in continuing the play. Not so, says the ref, ball was live. Penalty kick. The handball was clear as day, and just as clearly deliberate (albeit not cynical, as with Thiago Silva).
View: https://youtu.be/f6y_YFO4u00?t=350
Yellow was shown.
View: https://youtu.be/f6y_YFO4u00?t=350
Yellow was shown.
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a handball, even a deliberate one, is only a red if it's a DOGSO. "[D]eliberately touch[ing] the ball with their hand/arm" makes the action a "handball offense" under FA Rule 12 (specifically 12.1), but those offenses are not automatic sending offs, those are just definitions of fouls. Rule 12.3 does defines it as a red card "denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)." So, just looking at the clip from the twitter link doesn't prove it's a red, only that it's a deliberate handling of the ball and thus a foul.
Here's the angle on VAR review. I don't think, with a defender roughly even with the play and more central to goal, with an angle to cut off the attack, that it's a DOGSO, and even if you want to argue that it should be, I certainly don't think it's clear and obvious error to say it's not a DOGSO:
It's a foul and a cynical one, so yellow is the right call there, but unless I'm getting the rules wrong or that defender doesn't negate the DOGSO analysis, I don't think it should have been a red.
Here's the angle on VAR review. I don't think, with a defender roughly even with the play and more central to goal, with an angle to cut off the attack, that it's a DOGSO, and even if you want to argue that it should be, I certainly don't think it's clear and obvious error to say it's not a DOGSO:
It's a foul and a cynical one, so yellow is the right call there, but unless I'm getting the rules wrong or that defender doesn't negate the DOGSO analysis, I don't think it should have been a red.
I think this angle shows pretty clearly that he would have been able to get a pretty decent shot off if allowed to dribble forward. The defender might have forced him wider than he would have liked but a competent forward is turning this into a good shooting opportunity.
View: https://twitter.com/GingerPirlo_/status/1576337611110563842
View: https://twitter.com/GingerPirlo_/status/1576337611110563842
The weekly VAR rundown from ESPN UK. The Saka offsides couldn’t be reviewed due to an uncalibrated Hawkeye camera. Certainly an interesting explanation there.
VAR Review
VAR Review
And they mention the Juventus one as a sort of weird comp.
He doesn’t love the Gabriel handball not getting called, either.
He usually twists himself in knots defending decisions as correct. Oliver had himself a nightmare. Or, by his standards, a good game:
He doesn’t love the Gabriel handball not getting called, either.
He usually twists himself in knots defending decisions as correct. Oliver had himself a nightmare. Or, by his standards, a good game:
My interpretation of that article was that this part of the pitch is effectively a "blind spot" for the Hawkeye system. I couldn't tell whether the cameras set up at the Emirates just happened to have this issue or whether it is this way in all PL stadiums.
Whatever the case, it seems like an obvious problem. If teams are playing high defensive lines, its going to be common to find wingers trying to play on the last shoulder and beat an offside trap from that portion of the pitch. I'm actually quite surprised its never come up before, which makes me wonder whether this was something specific to how Hawkeye has been implemented in that particular stadium.
Was Saka offside? It looks really close eyeballing things and seems like a situation in which everything is likely to depend on what particular frame VAR semi-arbitrarily decides Ben White kicked the ball, since Saka is moving rapidly toward the ball while the defender is stationary or perhaps even moving in the other direction.
I said it in the game thread, but I’ll repeat it here. If Saka is a yard offside, he isn’t gaining a material advantage on the play. It isn’t the difference between the goal being scored and not. That’s not why the law was written. If that yard gave him the leg up to win a 50/50 ball… Yeah, that’s offside.
You can’t write a law that encompasses this or doesn’t leave more grey area than we already have, so I get why we are where we are. All that said, I’m really okay with the decision.
Contrast that with the Juventus play earlier this year where they had two points taken from them by this same flaw… That I have a huge problem letting go.
Most people, including the VAR review, are saying that the Jesus penalty was "soft."
But it's clearly a foul (Thiago kicks Jesus's ankle and doesn't get the ball), and it would be called so anywhere else on the pitch.
But it's clearly a foul (Thiago kicks Jesus's ankle and doesn't get the ball), and it would be called so anywhere else on the pitch.
I think there ought to be a safe harbor for players who are marginally offside when the ball is kicked, but they're coming back to the ball (as Saka was), and as such are onside at the spot they receive it at.
I think the most frustrating offside calls are the ones where there's a corner kick played, or some other scramble within a few yards of goal, and there's an offside because of some shuffling of bodies. IMO the zone for offside should stop at the line made by the front of the 6-yard box; once the ball advances past that point without it being an offside violation, there can be no offside violation until it is cleared outside that zone.
The spirit of the offside rule is "let's prevent people from camping out by the opponent's goal, waiting for a long ball". That spirit is met by the test in the first note, and imo would be similarly upheld if we got rid of those near-endline calls with the second one. Let's eliminate the making of calls that don't have to be made to ensure game fairness.
Right now, offsides is still offsides no matter if they were running back or only had a 1 yard advantage. I'm all for changing that rule but it's just not the case right now. My main concern is whether the assistants know where the blind spots are. If the instructions are to keep your flag down and let VAR adjudicate, there is a problem with that strategy if VAR only works in certain parts of the field because of where the Hawkeye cameras are set up. I guess semi-automated offsides will fix this particular issue when it's implemented (World Cup first and maybe Premier League next season).
Oops:
View: https://twitter.com/TheSharpeEnd/status/1624537708587634690
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11740619/VAR-Lee-Mason-FORGOT-draw-offside-lines-reviewing-Ivan-Toneys-controversial-equaliser.html
In one match today, they forgot to draw the lines. In another, they drew the lines on the wrong player. I'm generally more pro-VAR than most but this is comically stupid. The point of VAR is to get things right. if VAR can't even do that we shouldn't be bothering.
View: https://twitter.com/TheSharpeEnd/status/1624537708587634690
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11740619/VAR-Lee-Mason-FORGOT-draw-offside-lines-reviewing-Ivan-Toneys-controversial-equaliser.html
In one match today, they forgot to draw the lines. In another, they drew the lines on the wrong player. I'm generally more pro-VAR than most but this is comically stupid. The point of VAR is to get things right. if VAR can't even do that we shouldn't be bothering.
This is why replay is stupid. It slows the game down, ruins the "what you see is what you get" part of sports (how many times do we see a goal scores and then have to wait to see if it was really scored?) and it just changes what the humans involved in the process screw up.
Instead of arguing about whether the refs on the field called the touchdown catch or the goal or the charge properly, we argue about whether the reply official called it properly.
Instead of arguing about whether the refs on the field called the touchdown catch or the goal or the charge properly, we argue about whether the reply official called it properly.
Replay is not stupid. The way FIFA has insisted on officiating 22 world class athletes on a massive patch of grass is stupid. The resulting constant errors then forced the introduction of replay, where the implementation was stupid.
It’s clear that the referees cannot police themselves, and it’s probably unfair to expect them to. It’s difficult to imagine any line of work where a professional would be comfortable having a peer watching over them, ready to fix their errors publicly. That peer is likely hyper aware of the potential of having the tables turned when roles are reversed.
The “clear and obvious” criteria is absurd. A call is either correct or it isn’t. That’s part of what has created this mess. Using that standard alongside an offside decision system that is almost completely arbitrary in its implementation just furthers the feelings of absurdity.
I think there are some fantastic ideas out there (including this thread) on patches and fixes for this, but they don’t matter. Until FIFA and/or the FA concede that there are critical, crippling flaws in their implementation we won’t see any change and this thread will continue to grow every week.
It’s clear that the referees cannot police themselves, and it’s probably unfair to expect them to. It’s difficult to imagine any line of work where a professional would be comfortable having a peer watching over them, ready to fix their errors publicly. That peer is likely hyper aware of the potential of having the tables turned when roles are reversed.
The “clear and obvious” criteria is absurd. A call is either correct or it isn’t. That’s part of what has created this mess. Using that standard alongside an offside decision system that is almost completely arbitrary in its implementation just furthers the feelings of absurdity.
I think there are some fantastic ideas out there (including this thread) on patches and fixes for this, but they don’t matter. Until FIFA and/or the FA concede that there are critical, crippling flaws in their implementation we won’t see any change and this thread will continue to grow every week.
The PGMOL has now admitted to the human error screwup in the Arsenal/Brentford game. In a rational system, anyone involved in that kind of mistake shouldn’t go anywhere near a replay system for a long time; over/under on when Lee Mason gets his next VAR assignment?
It’s his only job and as I recall he’s already been suspended for an egregious error this year… So he’ll miss zero games.
People hired for VAR roles should be entirely different people, and trained entirely differently, than on-field referees. It shouldn't be a revolving door. The skills required to manage players' tempers on-field, run 6+ miles up and down, and make calls in real time, overlap only superficially with those required to operate some image processing equipment and determine a fact while applying the rules. Yeah, you need to know the rules, cold... but that's about where the comparison stops.
Having them be separate career tracks would also alleviate SocrManiac's valid objections that VARs are in a position of needing to overturn the calls made by a peer, knowing the shoe could be on the other foot the next time.
Having them be separate career tracks would also alleviate SocrManiac's valid objections that VARs are in a position of needing to overturn the calls made by a peer, knowing the shoe could be on the other foot the next time.
And now he’s out of the PGMOL “by mutual consent.”
View: https://twitter.com/FA_PGMOL/status/1626669063140171784
I probably watch as much (or more of) the Bundesliga as the PL these days. While there is still grumbling about VAR in Germany, I find the implementation of it to be far superior to what we see in England. The Athletic had a recent story about how they do it differently there:
https://theathletic.com/4172245/2023/03/02/inside-the-bundesligas-var-centre-and-the-possibility-of-virtual-reality/?source=user_shared_article
https://theathletic.com/4172245/2023/03/02/inside-the-bundesligas-var-centre-and-the-possibility-of-virtual-reality/?source=user_shared_article