I do not, ever, think "coaching" is the problem when I see performances from players that are far below their usual standard. There is not one player from the '14 WC squad who has taken a clear, definitive step forward since. Every one of them, IMO, has taken at least one - and in some cases, several - steps backward. Since the end of the WC, one new player has shown a capacity to play at this level - Zardes.Even those invested in pumping MLS's tires know the player pool has weakened. But if you watch the games, you can still evaluate how Klinsmann is doing. And he's not doing well. In the Gold Cup, we saw the US forced on the defensive and badly outshot on home soil by a bunch of teams that featured a ton of those dreaded MLS-caliber players in their lineups - or worse. Jamaica started an MLS bench player and a USL starter against us as well as League One types. I saw the Haiti game in person, in which the US was outshot 21-6. Haiti started three minor leaguers, as well as guys in places like Cyprus.
It's depressing and the problem clearly goes far beyond the player pool.
At pretty much every level from the senior team down to the U-17s, we are seeing squads look like less than the sum of their parts. That has never been the case for the US until now. It's plain to see that these teams lack cohesion, lack a solid game plan, lack any sort of system, lack good coaching. I watch these games and I'm seeing dreadful stuff, even from players who are successful at their clubs. At the younger age groups, it's the USSF's fault for hiring shit youth coaches who are simply well-connected to the federation. At the senior team and the U23 level, it's on Klinsmann.
In the current context of a weaker player pool, we need to maximize the use of all the resources we have. Klinsmann isn't doing that and isn't even coming close.
Lastly - do you really believe there is a 20-year plan, or anything like that? For his entire tenure, I've struggled to understand exactly how to translate Klinsmann's lofty vision into something tangible or specific. I have yet to hear much articulated beyond empty sound bytes and buzzwords.
When I observe national team player performance declining nearly across the board including young players, foreign-based players, and MLS players, I look at the coach of the national team. I believe that the player pool's relative weakness has simply given Klinsmann cover for his other failings.I do not, ever, think "coaching" is the problem when I see performances from players that are far below their usual standard. There is not one player from the '14 WC squad who has taken a clear, definitive step forward since. Every one of them, IMO, has taken at least one - and in some cases, several - steps backward. Since the end of the WC, one new player has shown a capacity to play at this level - Zardes.
That's not coaching. I think it is very, very easy to blame a coach because it is easy to fire a coach. But this is on the senior level players, IMO. (I trust your judgement on anything below the senior level - if you say the problem there is coaching, I cannot dispute it because I have not watched.)
Michael Bradley has regressed since leaving Europe. Clint Dempsey, Beckerman, and Beasley have aged out of effectiveness. Jozy Altidore is a shadow of the guy who once looked promising in the Eredivisie. Guys like Diskerud and Bedoya have regressed. Johannsson, Besler, Gonzalez, and Brooks have all struggled with injuries or ineffectiveness. Bad Guzan has sucked. Howard "retired" and then looked like shit. Fabian Johnson has outright quit playing on the pitch and had to be sent home. Chandler has so little commitment to the team concept they shouldn't even bother calling him in.
The one possible exception - that proves my point - is Geoff Cameron. Stayed in England, fought for his spot, didn't take the easy money and the easier competition, and hasn't outright sucked.
Which players are you prepared to blame?
The tragedy of this is that it didn't have to go down this way. Don Garber and MLS torpedoed the USMNT program for several cycles by giving away DP contracts like candy. MLS sabotaged any chance the USMNT had at a competitive player pool - by bringing home all these "stars", MLS took away minutes from prospects and gave them to the likes of Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard. MLS created a stagnant, "fat & happy" player pool where no one fights for minutes or a job. If you are American, and you make the USMNT roster, you get a cushy contract and your name in the marketing program.
Lastly, I hope there's a plan, or Gulati should be shot out of cannon into the sun for being so incompetent and feckless. Reforming the way coaches are trained, and players identified - as you've written about extensively - should be priority #1 and it seems like that is happening based on some of the links in this thread.
Klinsmann lost his battle to Garber & MLS and saw his chances of a WC contender vanish - and was pissed about it. Maybe that's resulted in some MLS prospects not getting called in - I don't know. I watch MLS and never see anyone worth shit. YMMV. Lee Nguyen is a nice player in MLS who is hopelessly overmatched against Germany's D team. That a kid out of Stanford is the best prospect the USMNT has is a huge fucking indictment of USA Soccer's incestuous and disastrous "partnership" with MLS.
But if it's part of a long term plan to grow the game domestically, overhaul the coaching and training pipelines, develop a decent league where players can grow...then yeah, in 20 years America might have a chance to be competitive again in a WC. That's depressing - but barring an American Messi - I don't know how anyone can conclude otherwise.
If T&T had a top-1,000 striker in the world this game would be 2-0 at least.For those not watching... the players who have sucked for the last year still suck
Pretty sure Kenwyne Wilfork is a top-1000 striker in the world. Fortunately he keeps laying off the ball for other guys.If T&T had a top-1,000 striker in the world this game would be 2-0 at least.
I'm legitimately curious how your autocorrect turned an attempt to type Jones into Wilfork.Pretty sure Kenwyne Wilfork is a top-1000 striker in the world. Fortunately he keeps laying off the ball for other guys.
Do these people just spend their retirement watching Miracle on loop all day? Like this mysterious idea of "identifying as American" imbues players with a magical will to win through togetherness and freedom. Not that Donovan was ever a much-loved player, but this guy has lost all credibility over his transparent anti-Klinsmann act.Glad Donovan can make himself out to be more of a childish asshole. The US obviously lost to Belgium because the foreign-born players did not care enough.
Imagine how well Jermaine Jones would have played if he cared. If only we had more players like Wondo on the squad.
Heh, it's true, this is better than nobody giving a shit and I think most of us can probably remember such a time. Of course, most people likely don't understand this whole thing is just a symptom of the developmental problems Titans Bastard tells us about with every new post about some terrible hire in the youth ranks.Institutional dysfunction is a step towards bringing the USSF inline with their foreign counterparts. So, maybe this is progress?
Look, this really isn't that controversial. Some of the stuff Wambach said came across as redneck-y, whatever the intent, but Donovan's first point ("I wouldn't feel as good about it if we had a team full of players that didn't really grow up or didn't really identify as being American") isn't hard to understand. A significant part of what makes international soccer awesome and elevates it above the standard "rooting for laundry" model of pro sports as we're accustomed to them is that you're cheering for your country, and there's a nationalistic element to it, for better or worse. So when I'm trying to get a cheap, harmless patriotic thrill out of watching these games, it's much easier to do that if I'm rooting for guys like Donovan, who was born and raised here, or Carlos Llamosa, who emigrated from Colombia to the US as an adult to work as a janitor, or Hugo Perez, who came here from El Salvador when he was 11. They have a much stronger connection to some readily identifiable aspect of American culture than do guys who have an American parent but have never set foot in the US (at least not until they've joined the national team). Without that connection, we're much closer to rooting for laundry, which I guess is OK, but it clearly loses some of what makes it special. And I'm sure for Donovan, there's another layer on top of that, where he's got a personal emotional investment in the US soccer development system, and outsourcing our development to the German system (without a hell of a lot of tangible gain) craps all over that.Do these people just spend their retirement watching Miracle on loop all day? Like this mysterious idea of "identifying as American" imbues players with a magical will to win through togetherness and freedom. Not that Donovan was ever a much-loved player, but this guy has lost all credibility over his transparent anti-Klinsmann act.
As if JK's German-Americans are A) the team's first ever "foreign" players or B) not responsible for much of the team's recent successes.
God help us if this guy ever worms his way into the ranks of the USSF.
The bolded is ridiculous and there is no data to back it up, just xenophobic assholes. You realize the pinnacle of the sport is winning the world cup. These players are playing for the US because they want to win the world cup. Name one player who has not tried as hard because he was a duel-national.To his other point, about whether the dual nationals are harmful to our success, it's debatable. That being said, the example of Fabian Johnson doesn't disprove what Donovan is saying - his quote isn't insinuating that all dual-nationals are going to lack dedication and be detrimental to team performance, but rather that *some* dual-nationals are going to be like that (and you can infer that he thinks dual-nationals are more likely to be like that than guys who came up through the system are). Sure, there's not hard data to back that up, and there are plenty of examples and counterexamples, but it's not completely out of leftfield to think that a guy who settled for the US as a consolation prize after having his heart set on playing for Germany or France or whoever might be more inclined to half-ass it out there when things get tough. Debatable, but grounded in some sort of logic.
In any case, I think a lot of this also reflects a certain level of frustration with Klinsmann's willingness to give his dual nationals every chance to succeed, even when they appear to be contributing nothing, while burying a number of guys who have come up through the US system and shown promise there.
Timothy Chandler, which is pretty obvious IMO. But no one else comes to mind.The bolded is ridiculous and there is no data to back it up, just xenophobic assholes. You realize the pinnacle of the sport is winning the world cup. These players are playing for the US because they want to win the world cup. Name one player who has not tried as hard because he was a duel-national.
JK almost certainly considers Donovan a locker room cancer. But does anyone else? I've gotten the impression that he's far more controversial among fans than he's been among players & coaches, especially later in his career. Certainly, earlier in his career there were players who thought he was arrogant -- because he was -- but I think he's matured since then.Wasn't Donovan considered a "locker room cancer"? You are right we won't know the extent till JK is gone, but I trust almost nothing he says about team chemistry.
What I like about Donovan is that, even though his voice makes him sound like the most boring guy in the universe, he's remarkably honest about what he thinks and feels. His candor is part of the reason he's widely liked and widely disliked.I personally would not have fond feelings about a guy who took time off from the game during qualification.
I disagree with this quote pretty emphatically, but leaving that aside for a moment, if you want to be "strict" about what type of players qualify as being culturally identifiable to you, you need to recognize that this will be a significant obstacle for the the USMNT. There are numerous examples of the best teams in the world accepting dual nationals on their squads (Germany with Klose and Podolski who are Pollocks, Spain with Brazilian Diego Costa and Marcos Senna, Italy with Argentine Camoranesi, etc.). So, if the US doesn't try to take advantage of this technicality, it will be to their detriment.A significant part of what makes international soccer awesome and elevates it above the standard "rooting for laundry" model of pro sports as we're accustomed to them is that you're cheering for your country, and there's a nationalistic element to it, for better or worse. So when I'm trying to get a cheap, harmless patriotic thrill out of watching these games, it's much easier to do that if I'm rooting for guys like Donovan, who was born and raised here, or Carlos Llamosa, who emigrated from Colombia to the US as an adult to work as a janitor, or Hugo Perez, who came here from El Salvador when he was 11. They have a much stronger connection to some readily identifiable aspect of American culture than do guys who have an American parent but have never set foot in the US (at least not until they've joined the national team). Without that connection, we're much closer to rooting for laundry, which I guess is OK, but it clearly loses some of what makes it special. And I'm sure for Donovan, there's another layer on top of that, where he's got a personal emotional investment in the US soccer development system, and outsourcing our development to the German system (without a hell of a lot of tangible gain) craps all over that.
Donovan is hardly some far-right neanderthal. He was one of the loudest voices in pushing for acceptance of gay athletes in pro sports locker rooms, and for destigmatization of mental health issues in pro sports. (He had serious issues with depression, which is what caused him to take time off -- and which is why people who vilify him for "quitting on the national team during qualifying" need to take a step back and rethink their stance.)The bolded is ridiculous and there is no data to back it up, just xenophobic assholes.
Timmy Chandler, as has been brought up. Also, back in the old days, guys like David Wagner and Michael Mason didn't exactly cover themselves in glory.You realize the pinnacle of the sport is winning the world cup. These players are playing for the US because they want to win the world cup. Name one player who has not tried as hard because he was a duel-national.
Brooks and Chandler don't seem to be dramatically better options than the rest of the field in the US, and might be worse. Guys who have been buried (not limited to youth) include Robbie Rogers, Ethan Finlay, Lee Nguyen, Wil Trapp, Benny Feilhaber, Sebastian Lletget, etc., etc.Also, what duel-nationals are "contributing nothing" and who has he buried that has shown promise? The best example of youth showing promise during Klinsmann's tenure would be Yedlin and Morris, they have gotten plenty of run.
I'm not saying they shouldn't call up guys who are eligible for the national team just because they don't meet some strict definition of "cultural identifiability" from my personal standpoint. I'm saying it takes some of the fun out of rooting for the team for me personally when they do that, for reasons that I think should be fairly understandable. I should also add that my personal view on "cultural identifiability" is fairly broad and includes pretty much anyone who qualifies under FIFA rules and has spent a significant amount of time in the US for reasons other than being a professional soccer player. (That would cover Podolski and Klose in the Germany example.)I disagree with this quote pretty emphatically, but leaving that aside for a moment, if you want to be "strict" about what type of players qualify as being culturally identifiable to you, you need to recognize that this will be a significant obstacle for the the USMNT. There are numerous examples of the best teams in the world accepting dual nationals on their squads (Germany with Klose and Podolski who are Pollocks, Spain with Brazilian Diego Costa and Marcos Senna, Italy with Argentine Camoranesi, etc.). So, if the US doesn't try to take advantage of this technicality, it will be to their detriment.
You are upset they are playing John Brooks? The guy has the potential to be a great CB and is one of the reasons the US made it out of the group stage.Donovan is hardly some far-right neanderthal. He was
Brooks and Chandler don't seem to be dramatically better options than the rest of the field in the US, and might be worse. Guys who have been buried (not limited to youth) include Robbie Rogers, Ethan Finlay, Lee Nguyen, Wil Trapp, Benny Feilhaber, Sebastian Lletget, etc., etc.
I'm going to slightly disagree with you. Bringing in someone like Jermaine Jones is like what the US did for their 90s teams. Guys like Tom Dooley and Ernie Stewart were established vets and were clear starters on the team. But when JK brings in a very inexperienced player, it's not the same. I get the logic that he is using, but it's going to rub people who are in the system the wrong way.The US has always imported players to fill holes. What JK is doing is no different than what Bora did with Thomas Dooley and Earnie Stewart, two guys who make my all-time USA team, by the way.
That's not true for Stewart, who got capped at 21.I'm going to slightly disagree with you. Bringing in someone like Jermaine Jones is like what the US did for their 90s teams. Guys like Tom Dooley and Ernie Stewart were established vets and were clear starters on the team. But when JK brings in a very inexperienced player, it's not the same. I get the logic that he is using, but it's going to rub people who are in the system the wrong way.
This is not a uniquely American conundrum. Every time Portugal has incorporated a naturalized Brazilian to the team (Deco, Liedson, Pepe), there was some push back. Deco was introduced when he was playing at his highest level, but players like Figo openly criticized his inclusion.
This isn't an issue that you are going to get everybody to agree on because it isn't clean cut.
If potential in isolation meant a thing, Jovan Kirovski and Freddy Adu would be US soccer legends. Brooks had 10 good minutes against Ghana in the World Cup (primarily due to his offensive contribution, which isn't top of the list among things I'm looking for from a central defender). Then he spent this summer getting worked like a speedbag by average-to-good MLS players in the Gold Cup. I don't need to see any more of him until he's able to show better than that.You are upset they are playing John Brooks? The guy has the potential to be a great CB and is one of the reasons the US made it out of the group stage.
Chandler's roster spot isn't like a dedicated slot for a right back. There are guys like Cameron and Yedlin, or Tim Ream in a pinch, who could play RB without any significant compromise to team quality, which would then open up a slot for someone else who warrants a closer look to see if we have something. But even if we were swapping out like for like, it wouldn't kill me to see someone like Brad Evans or even Zach Loyd in there. It's not like Chandler is head-and-shoulders above those guys.So of those players who have been "buried", which of their replacements are foreign? None of them play RB, so that is why Chandler made the team.
Diskerud, yes. I've seen plenty of him, I know what he is, and I find him pretty ordinary - maybe a prime example of the phenomenon where people overrate our overseas options over our domestic ones. Jones, yes, given that his current level of performance at this age / in this health state is no longer enough to make up for the fact that he's kind of a lunkhead (poor positional discipline, emotionally volatile). Johnson, no.Also, every player you listed is a midfielder and some of them have gotten run with the national team already. Would you take them over Mix or Jones or F Johnson depending on where he plays?
This is soccer, not baseball, so age and veterans status is more fluid. By 21, he was in his 3rd season of getting first team run in Holland and had transferred to Willem. The rest of the roster was trying to play their way out of the APSL.That's not true for Stewart, who got capped at 21.
Alexander Hamilton likes this.The bolded is ridiculous and there is no data to back it up, just xenophobic assholes. You realize the pinnacle of the sport is winning the world cup. These players are playing for the US because they want to win the world cup. Name one player who has not tried as hard because he was a duel-national.
Also, what duel-nationals are "contributing nothing" and who has he buried that has shown promise? The best example of youth showing promise during Klinsmann's tenure would be Yedlin and Morris, they have gotten plenty of run.
I am sad to say this went over my head.Alexander Hamilton likes this.
Ha, I was hoping he was referring to Hamiltons support for using foreign-born players in the American Revolution.Duel vs dual