USMNT: To Rüssia With Love

[Cellar-Door]

 
Most of these guys just got a cup of coffee at January Camp.  There hasn't been a serious attempt to integrate most of these players into the team or give them a shot outside of the confines of January.
 
Dax McCarty (DM), Kitchen (DM), Benny Feilhaber (CM), Ethan Finlay (winger), Sebastian Lletget (winger), Robbie Rogers (LB), Harry Shipp (attacking midfielder), Matt Miazga (CB) are some guys I'd consider calling in.  Darlington Nagbe too, now that he's eligible.  Kellyn Acosta is developing well at CM for Dallas, though I think it's too early for him.  It's a shame that Feilhaber has been totally ignored during the best three year stretch of his career.

I'd like to see everyone on that list get at least some run in friendlies except Feilhaber. He's almost 31 already, and I am not a believer in his game in general. I think he is one of the players most benefiting from playing in MLS, I think he has all the same flaws as before, and now he's getting old.
 

FJ dismissed from camp:
 
https://twitter.com/DougMacESPN/status/653674481723015168
 
https://twitter.com/BrianSciaretta/status/653674069192257536
 

Jurgen is such a clown sometimes. Yes send home the guy who has been your best and hardest working defender over the last few years because he had to come off after 100+ minutes in the heat with only a few games under his belt in a return from injury. All because you wanted to save your sub for the keeper in PKs (which didn't even happen) because you are a moron.

 

[nickandemmasuncle]

 
I don't think Klinsmann is a particularly good coach but come the fuck on.  That 2006 Germany team was very pedestrian.  People in Germany were pleasantly surprised that they finished third and nobody blamed Klinsmann for failing to make the final.  Then he coached Bayern for one season, getting knocked out in the quarters of the CL by one of the greatest club sides of all time and finishing second in the Bundesliga by two points (he was three points off the top when he got sacked).  That's hardly "running them into the ground," especially given that the club won the double and made the CL final the following year (although finishing with only three more points in the league).

 
I'll admit that my mind is made up about Klinsmann, and that I'm inclined to interpret his results in the least favorable way possible, but I don't see how his 2006 World Cup results can be interpreted as anything better than par for the course. For the last 60 years, regardless of how lackluster the squad looked or anything else, you've been able to pencil in Germany for a spot in the last 8 every single time. So making it to the last 4 at home, and doing it by beating a bunch of tomato cans, squeaking by a so-so Argentina in the quarters, and then losing to an Italian team that wasn't heavily fancied isn't really a huge feather in your cap.
 
As far as Bayern, I didn't mean to suggest he ran the club into the ground in the sense that he did significant long-term damage, but rather in the sense that he clearly underachieved. That's a club that's won 60% of Germany's domestic titles and 50% of all DFB cups since the turn of the century, and he couldn't manage to win either. On top of that, he lost the locker room and was generally viewed as not knowing what the hell he was doing, which seems to be consistent with what we're seeing these days.
 

 
Man, I don't think I could disagree with this post more.  I think talking about the USMNT under any coach in terms of results sort of misses the forest for the trees.  The US team has always had an ability to grind out heroic results on the back of guile and effort.  This is without question.  The promise Klinsmann made was to stop playing that style and to try to be one of the big boys, playing proper footy and trying to beat teams while dictating the match.  He certainly hasn't delivered on that front.
 
Last night was really, really depressing for me.  I don't care about losing to Mexico, which will happen sometimes, and I don't care about the Confederations Cup.  Last night was depressing because Klinsmann felt a need to field THAT lineup and to play that style of football.  It was basically a Bob Bradley attempt at winning, and those players were essentially Bradley's team as well, and it nearly worked.  But I'm tired of a USMNT that wins because it defends with heart and some attacker has a moment of brilliance and/or we score from a set piece and we manage the result.  I have no doubt that the USMNT can be setup this way and achieve greater results than they do today, but they'll never achieve the greatest results playing this way and I don't believe a talent pool of our size should be aiming to at best play the part of spoiler and make a semi deep run in a non CONCACAF tournament.  This is why I have no desire to see us playing the MLS All Stars coached by Bruce Arena (again).  It's not a pissing match -- the league simply isn't as good as the level we need to aspire to be at.  

 
I don't think it's fair to characterize the Arena era, and particularly 2002, as one in which we worked hard and relied on the odd moment of brilliance from soneone. It's been 13 years, so my recollection isn't the greatest, but I remember our World Cup games playing out as follows:
 
Portugal: We absolutely took the game to them for about the first half hour, before we got gassed / terrified / Agoosed
 
Korea: We were a bit on the back foot for most of that game, but not excessively so
 
Poland: We tried to boss this game and got torched on the counter repeatedly
 
Mexico (R16): We did sit back and counter here, because that's our formula for beating Mexico
 
Germany (QF): We held our own with Germany in this one, at the very least -- made tons of good / very good chances, and would have had an equalizer if it hadn't been for some weak officiating -- also, I know these stats aren't perfect, but I took a look back to see if my memory was failing me, and it looks like we outpossessed Germany 58-42 and had more shots, overall and on target, than they did in this game)
 
So in some games we were on the back foot, but in others we most certainly weren't, and that includes our QF against an eventual finalist. We did that with large contributions from a bunch of guys playing in season 7 of MLS. With how far things have advanced since then, I have a hard time buying the argument that the talent level in MLS is really what's killing us.
 
As far as Bradley, yeah, his teams counterattacked, but frankly, that's a legit strategy, and it can be both effective and entertaining when it's done well, which it was for a good chunk of Bradley's term. Hell, did you not get a thrill watching that 2009 Confederations Cup team dismantle Brazil on the break? If anyone can complain about not having the right guys, it's Bradley. Charlie Davies was the perfect guy to play up front in that system, and then he got in that car accident and we ended up trying to fit a bunch of square pegs into his role for the rest of Bradley's run.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
 
I'll admit that my mind is made up about Klinsmann, and that I'm inclined to interpret his results in the least favorable way possible, but I don't see how his 2006 World Cup results can be interpreted as anything better than par for the course. For the last 60 years, regardless of how lackluster the squad looked or anything else, you've been able to pencil in Germany for a spot in the last 8 every single time. So making it to the last 4 at home, and doing it by beating a bunch of tomato cans, squeaking by a so-so Argentina in the quarters, and then losing to an Italian team that wasn't heavily fancied isn't really a huge feather in your cap.
 
As far as Bayern, I didn't mean to suggest he ran the club into the ground in the sense that he did significant long-term damage, but rather in the sense that he clearly underachieved. That's a club that's won 60% of Germany's domestic titles and 50% of all DFB cups since the turn of the century, and he couldn't manage to win either. On top of that, he lost the locker room and was generally viewed as not knowing what the hell he was doing, which seems to be consistent with what we're seeing these days.

 
You're missing a lot of important context about the German team around the turn of the century.  This was a period in which there were deep concerns that German football was in a steep decline.  Their run to the WC final in 2002 was seen to be largely an illusion, given that they played Paraguay, the US, and South Korea to get there.  More telling was the fact that they had not won a match at either Euro 2000 or Euro 2004, despite playing the likes of Latvia, Romania, the and the Czechs.  There were serious worries in Germany that the team was going to embarrass the country by going out very early and/or playing dire football.  Instead, they won all their group games, played  with style, and beat a very good Argentina before losing in extra time to Italy (a fantastic team IMO). And that German team was very far from stacked - Michael Ballack was really their only world class outfield player.  Every German I talked to at the time considered 3rd place to be a very good performance given pre-tournament expectations.
 
Klinsmann might not have won the Bundesliga or DFB-Pokal but we're talking about one year.  Killing a guy for not winning silverware in a single year is kind of extreme, no?
 
Long story short, I don't think he's a particularly good coach either but you're not doing your argument any favors by massively exaggerating his perceived failures before coming here.

 

[soxfan121]

 
Klinsmann and MLS deeply loathe each other and their relationship has worsened in the last year or two.  Nowadays, Klinsmann is very hesitant to experiment with any new players from MLS.  Gyasi Zardes is the only new player from MLS that has joined the player pool since the World Cup.  Although there are no surefire USMNT stars in MLS who have not been called, there are quite a few players who could potentially help fill a role.  Instead, Klinsmann limits himself to foreign-based players -- and that particular pool isn't that big.  Does anybody seriously think that Ventura Alvarado would have caps if he played for the Portland Timbers?  Or Greg Garza if he played for FC Dallas?  Or Joe Corona continuing to get call ups if he played for Orlando City?  Would Andrew Wooten be in camp right now if he played for the Chicago Fire?  Not a chance.  No way.

 
Or, MLS players aren't good enough. 
 
Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris make this case for me; Wood is a marginal B2 player who is one of "our" brightest prospects, because he's improving by playing against tough competition. Morris is staying in college rather than toil for minimum wage in MLS, and keeping his Euro options open after his injury because the competition is better. 
 
I mean, if you're convinced JK "deeply loathes" MLS and is intentionally leaving useful players off his roster to make some kind of point, while also selecting a majority of his roster from the MLS ranks...I don't know what to tell you. The quality of play in MLS, as judged by someone who knows better than I, is lacking.

 

[coremiller]

 
You're missing a lot of important context about the German team around the turn of the century.  This was a period in which there were deep concerns that German football was in a steep decline.  Their run to the WC final in 2002 was seen to be largely an illusion, given that they played Paraguay, the US, and South Korea to get there.  More telling was the fact that they had not won a match at either Euro 2000 or Euro 2004, despite playing the likes of Latvia, Romania, the and the Czechs.  There were serious worries in Germany that the team was going to embarrass the country by going out very early and/or playing dire football.  Instead, they won all their group games, played  with style, and beat a very good Argentina before losing in extra time to Italy (a fantastic team IMO). And that German team was very far from stacked - Michael Ballack was really their only world class outfield player.  Every German I talked to at the time considered 3rd place to be a very good performance given pre-tournament expectations.
 
Klinsmann might not have won the Bundesliga or DFB-Pokal but we're talking about one year.  Killing a guy for not winning silverware in a single year is kind of extreme, no?
 
Long story short, I don't think he's a particularly good coach either but you're not doing your argument any favors by massively exaggerating his perceived failures before coming here.

 
You're generally right about the context here, but this is going a bit too far.  The 2006 team was young, and expectations were low because they had turned over nearly the whole team after Euro 2004 (Lahm, Ballack, and Frings were the only 2004 starters to start the opening game in 2006), but they turned out to be much more talented than most people figured at the time.  Ballack was hardly their only world class player -- they had Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Podolski, Mertesacker, Metzelder, that damn handballer Frings, mad Jens in goal ... it wasn't a bare cupboard.  Despite the talent, they got pretty badly outplayed for most of the quarterfinal against Argentina (the only quality team they "beat"), only for Argentina to sub off Riquelme (who had been running the game) and Crespo to save them for the semis and Germany to nick an equalizer off a set piece and then win on penalties.  Plus apparently most of the key tactical decisions (always Jurgen's weakness) were being made by Jogi Low anyway, who's turned out to be a much better manager than Jurgen.  I tend to agree with nickandemmasuncle that Klinsmann's 2006 performance has been generally overrated.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Or, MLS players aren't good enough. 
 
Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris make this case for me; Wood is a marginal B2 player who is one of "our" brightest prospects, because he's improving by playing against tough competition. Morris is staying in college rather than toil for minimum wage in MLS, and keeping his Euro options open after his injury because the competition is better. 

 
Jordan Morris has been offered multiple six-figure contracts by the Sounders, btw; minimum wage has never been on the table for him.  If you take him at his word, he just really likes Stanford and wants to finish his degree.  If you believe that he actually just wants to avoid MLS, well -- if he's gotten any offers from Europe at this point he certainly hasn't signed them either.
 
Wood is in the 2.Bundesliga, so he's playing against more or less the same level of competition as one might face in MLS.
 

I mean, if you're convinced JK "deeply loathes" MLS and is intentionally leaving useful players off his roster to make some kind of point, while also selecting a majority of his roster from the MLS ranks...I don't know what to tell you. The quality of play in MLS, as judged by someone who knows better than I, is lacking.
 

 
I don't think Klinsmann is intentionally leaving useful players off his roster as he would view it, I think his spat with MLS has clouded his judgment.  He systematically underrates out-of-pool MLS players and forces them to clear a much higher bar to get into the USMNT picture than players who are employed outside of MLS.  Based on what's been said publicly and reading between the lines, I think it's not at all a leap to believe that JK & the MLS establishment have no love lost between them.  But anyway, the key point here is that since the World Cup and since his public spat with Garber & the MLS owners, almost no new players from MLS have been added to the pool.  At the same time he's been diving deep into the pool of Americans who are abroad - guys like Garza, Alvarado, Corona, Yarbrough, and now Wooten - who really don't have resumes that stand out against those of MLS types.
 
Just as one shouldn't overstate the quality of MLS, one shouldn't lean too far in the inferiority complex direction either.

 

[Statman]

 
Jordan Morris has been offered multiple six-figure contracts by the Sounders, btw; minimum wage has never been on the table for him.  If you take him at his word, he just really likes Stanford and wants to finish his degree.  If you believe that he actually just wants to avoid MLS, well -- if he's gotten any offers from Europe at this point he certainly hasn't signed them either.

 
Can you point me to some links re: the above bolded section?  Wahl reported in April 2015 that the Sounders had made their first written contract to Morris and that it was "lucrative," but there was no mention of actual numbers.  

 

[McBride11]

 
Jordan Morris has been offered multiple six-figure contracts by the Sounders, btw; minimum wage has never been on the table for him.  If you take him at his word, he just really likes Stanford and wants to finish his degree.  If you believe that he actually just wants to avoid MLS, well -- if he's gotten any offers from Europe at this point he certainly hasn't signed them either.
 
Wood is in the 2.Bundesliga, so he's playing against more or less the same level of competition as one might face in MLS.
 
 
I don't think Klinsmann is intentionally leaving useful players off his roster as he would view it, I think his spat with MLS has clouded his judgment.  He systematically underrates out-of-pool MLS players and forces them to clear a much higher bar to get into the USMNT picture than players who are employed outside of MLS.  Based on what's been said publicly and reading between the lines, I think it's not at all a leap to believe that JK & the MLS establishment have no love lost between them.  But anyway, the key point here is that since the World Cup and since his public spat with Garber & the MLS owners, almost no new players from MLS have been added to the pool.  At the same time he's been diving deep into the pool of Americans who are abroad - guys like Garza, Alvarado, Corona, Yarbrough, and now Wooten - who really don't have resumes that stand out against those of MLS types.
 
Just as one shouldn't overstate the quality of MLS, one shouldn't lean too far in the inferiority complex direction either.

 
What about the coaching and style of play? I have never seen a 2 Bundesliga game but I assume the type of play is more possession centered an more technical than what you find in the MLS. Plus he may have more motivation to improve as he wants to move up the ladder as opposed to say Jozy who is comfortable being at the top of the MLS.
 
I think it is pretty ridiculous JK sent home FJ. He has been one of the hardest playing and best players for the UMSNT recently. I'm sure the only reason he asked to come off was because he was dead tired not being completely fit after his injury and thought himself a detriment to the team on the field.
 
At this point I want to see JK make some decisions on younger kids and stick with them. Example, clearly Zardes is here to stay, but are we keeping him at winger or are we going to move him up top? I think everyone in this forum would like to see Jozy sit. Or, while we all appreciate what Dempsey did for this team, but he is 32 and never puts in a full shift. Is he going to be a starter at 35 in 2018? Put Zardes in position either replacing Jozy or Clint. Then either Morris or Wooten or AJ* replacing the other going forward.
 
The experimentation entering the Gold Cup was foolish. But now try some players who will not only help us qualify but play in 2018. But he has to stick with them and give them a chance.
 
edit: other examples - Danny Williams takes the role of DM.
            Is Yedlin our CB of the future? Put him back there. He will hopefully continue to grow at Sunder, but trotting Brek Shea or DMB out there doesn't move the team forward.

 

[Titans Bastard]

 
Can you point me to some links re: the above bolded section?  Wahl reported in April 2015 that the Sounders had made their first written contract to Morris and that it was "lucrative," but there was no mention of actual numbers.  

 
This link states he turned down a verbal offer last winter and a written offer in April
 
I'm trying to find a report on numbers, but I can't find anything specific and it's entirely possible that I'm just extrapolated from "one of the most lucrative homegrown offers ever" line from Grant Wahl that you already referenced and forgot that it was an extrapolation.  For context, I believe Gyasi Zardes got the biggest ever HG contract, around $200k/yr.  I would not be surprised if Morris beats that.  This winter, Morris will be the same age as Zardes was when LA signed him, but Morris is better than Zardes was at the time in most respects.

 

[soxfan121]

Thanks for the substantive reply; I disagree on some points, but think you're making a persuasive argument. 
 

Wood is in the 2.Bundesliga, so he's playing against more or less the same level of competition as one might face in MLS.

However, I have a really hard time squaring this statement with your generally dim view of the development scheme for USA Soccer. Based on what I know - which is limited - the professional standards for coaching quality in the B2 far exceed those of any US based operation. And since, like you, I'm convinced that coaching is the key to development...I don't get how a league with demonstrably better coaching standards isn't "more" competitive - even if the talent is equivalent. 
 
The B2 has been the USA best pipeline of talent. Now, that can be spun into criticism of JK & his foreign-based approach but the fact is that the B2 players have come in and performed better than peers from MLS in the same timeframe. Zardes, and to a lesser extent, Yedlin are the MLS success stories; Brooks, Boyd, Wood, and many others have come through the b2 pipeline, and have put in credible performances. 

Now, JK's love affair for the MX players is inexplicable, and there might be some "screw MLS" in those selections. 

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
You're generally right about the context here, but this is going a bit too far.  The 2006 team was young, and expectations were low because they had turned over nearly the whole team after Euro 2004 (Lahm, Ballack, and Frings were the only 2004 starters to start the opening game in 2006), but they turned out to be much more talented than most people figured at the time.  Ballack was hardly their only world class player -- they had Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Podolski, Mertesacker, Metzelder, that damn handballer Frings, mad Jens in goal ... it wasn't a bare cupboard.  Despite the talent, they got pretty badly outplayed for most of the quarterfinal against Argentina (the only quality team they "beat"), only for Argentina to sub off Riquelme (who had been running the game) and Crespo to save them for the semis and Germany to nick an equalizer off a set piece and then win on penalties.  Plus apparently most of the key tactical decisions (always Jurgen's weakness) were being made by Jogi Low anyway, who's turned out to be a much better manager than Jurgen.  I tend to agree with nickandemmasuncle that Klinsmann's 2006 performance has been generally overrated.

 
Lahm was 23, Schweinsteiger 22, Mertesacker 22, Podolski 21.  They were an exciting group of promising young players but they were all very far from world class.  Frings and Klose were in their primes but they were never at that level either.  It wasn't a bare cupboard but they were certainly well outclassed by a lot of other teams in that tournament (France, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal) and they beat two of those teams and finished 3rd.  Like I've said numerous times, I don't think Klinsmann is a particularly good coach (and I have also read that about Low having more influence over tactics) but that's not the issue under debate.  The question is whether its fair to view his team's performance in that World Cup as a strike against him and I think that's completely off base.

 

[coremiller]

 
Lahm was 23, Schweinsteiger 22, Mertesacker 22, Podolski 21.  They were an exciting group of promising young players but they were all very far from world class.  Frings and Klose were in their primes but they were never at that level either.  It wasn't a bare cupboard but they were certainly well outclassed by a lot of other teams in that tournament (France, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal) and they beat two of those teams and finished 3rd.

 
Lahm and Schweinsteiger had been in Germany's Euro 2004 squad and were already starters for a Bayern side that won the Double that season (as did Frings).  They were young but they didn't come from nowhere.  Klose won the Bundelisga Golden Boot that season and was voted Germany's  Footballer of the Year.  
 
Meanwhile, they didn't really "beat" Argentina -- they drew 1-1 and went through on penalties.  And the win over Portugal (with an old Figo and a pre-breakout Ronaldo, probably not any more talented than Germany) came in the third place game that doesn't get taken nearly as seriously as a genuine WC knockout game.  A 1-1-1 record against the "good" sides, with that team, with home field advantage, is a decent result, but probably right about at expectation.
 
The myth Klinsmann likes to propogate that he elevated a rag-tag bunch of wet-behind-the-ears youngters and ne'er-do-well veterans to spectacular heights has little basis in fact.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
Lahm and Schweinsteiger had been in Germany's Euro 2004 squad and were already starters for a Bayern side that won the Double that season (as did Frings).  They were young but they didn't come from nowhere.  Klose won the Bundelisga Golden Boot that season and was voted Germany's  Footballer of the Year.  
 
Meanwhile, they didn't really "beat" Argentina -- they drew 1-1 and went through on penalties.  And the win over Portugal (with an old Figo and a pre-breakout Ronaldo, probably not any more talented than Germany) came in the third place game that doesn't get taken nearly as seriously as a genuine WC knockout game.  A 1-1-1 record against the "good" sides, with that team, with home field advantage, is a decent result, but probably right about at expectation.
 
The myth Klinsmann likes to propogate that he elevated a rag-tag bunch of wet-behind-the-ears youngters and ne'er-do-well veterans to spectacular heights has little basis in fact.

 
 Lahm and Schweinsteiger were both established first team players for a top club but that doesn't make them world beaters.  Schweinsteiger in particular was nothing special as a winger before Van Gaal made him a central midfielder.  Klose was a good striker but winning the Bundesliga golden boot was hardly a sign that he was world class in an era when the world's best were playing in England, Italy, or Spain.  For example, the guys who finished behind him in league goals were Berbatov, Altintop, Makaay, Vitek, and Klasnic - hardly a "who's who" of world strikers at the time.
 
I agree that Klinsmann did not "elevate a rag-tag bunch of wet-behind-the-ears youngsters and ne'er-do-well veterans to spectacular heights."  But I never made that argument.  I said that: (a) That 2006 team was pedestrian by German standards (b) Michael Ballack was the team's only world class outfield player at the time and (c) Knocking Klinsmann for not even being able to make the final is completely off base.  If you want to rail against Klinsmann mythology, knock yourself out.  But don't imply that I'm propagating the myth.

 

[Titans Bastard]

However, I have a really hard time squaring this statement with your generally dim view of the development scheme for USA Soccer. Based on what I know - which is limited - the professional standards for coaching quality in the B2 far exceed those of any US based operation. And since, like you, I'm convinced that coaching is the key to development...I don't get how a league with demonstrably better coaching standards isn't "more" competitive - even if the talent is equivalent. 

 
How about framing it this way - instead of saying US youth development is "worse" than Germany's, let's say it's "less efficient".  The US can get away with this and still have a league that's more or less on par with the 2.BL because (a) the US has a much larger population than Germany and (b) the 2.BL isn't Germany's top division anyway.
 
Despite numerous problems with the US system, it is still possible for players to become pretty good.  Not all youth coaches are bad, a good work ethic goes a long way, some guys have soccer dads who know the game, etc.  And the population base is huge.  The quality of youth development has to improve if the US (and MLS) is to advance beyond its current standing, though.
 
I really don't know enough about 2.BL managers to compare them with MLS managers.  Senior team managers do matter, but youth coaching is the bigger factor.
 

[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]The B2 has been the USA best pipeline of talent. Now, that can be spun into criticism of JK & his foreign-based approach but the fact is that the B2 players have come in and performed better than peers from MLS in the same timeframe. Zardes, and to a lesser extent, Yedlin are the MLS success stories; Brooks, Boyd, Wood, and many others have come through the b2 pipeline, and have put in credible performances. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]Now, JK's love affair for the MX players is inexplicable, and there might be some "screw MLS" in those selections. [/SIZE]
 

 
Yes, I agree that the Germany-based players have been more reasonable choices than the Mexico-based players.
 
Brooks & Morales were starters on promotion teams in the 2.BL.  Brooks has stuck in the Bundesliga and Morales has been a regular starter there so far.  Boyd moved from the regional leagues to the Austrian Bundesliga, where he did well (not 2.BL, but not a dramatically different level).  Wood hasn't had as much club success as the rest, but he has good qualities and is an interesting prospect, especially since he seems to be improving his finishing woes.
 
All clearly above-average players in the 2.BL or prospects.
 
The Mexico guys haven't stood out in Liga MX.  And while Liga MX is clearly better than MLS, it is not exactly the EPL.  League average players in Liga MX are not USMNT caliber.  Jose Torres, Michael Orozco, and even old Jonathan Bornstein are currently regular starters down there.

 

[coremiller]

 
 Lahm and Schweinsteiger were both established first team players for a top club but that doesn't make them world beaters.  Schweinsteiger in particular was nothing special as a winger before Van Gaal made him a central midfielder.  Klose was a good striker but winning the Bundesliga golden boot was hardly a sign that he was world class in an era when the world's best were playing in England, Italy, or Spain.  For example, the guys who finished behind him in league goals were Berbatov, Altintop, Makaay, Vitek, and Klasnic - hardly a "who's who" of world strikers at the time.
 
I agree that Klinsmann did not "elevate a rag-tag bunch of wet-behind-the-ears youngsters and ne'er-do-well veterans to spectacular heights."  But I never made that argument.  I said that: (a) That 2006 team was pedestrian by German standards (b) Michael Ballack was the team's only world class outfield player at the time and (c) Knocking Klinsmann for not even being able to make the final is completely off base.  If you want to rail against Klinsmann mythology, knock yourself out.  But don't imply that I'm propagating the myth.

 
Except nobody suggested they should have made the final, either.  The argument you were responding to was that making a semifinal on home turf was "par for the course" and that Klinsmann didn't actually accomplish anything particularly special.  That team may have been pedestrian by the exceedingly high German standards (since they're either the 1st or 2nd most successful country in world football), sure, but that's why a semifinal was "par", rather than winning the competition (which historically most German teams from 1966-1996 and 2008-present on home soil would have been heavily favored to do).  And while they played stylish football against the weaker sides, they got outplayed by both Argentina and Italy in the big knockout games.  Klinsmann's accomplishment got overrated at the time because nobody knew that batch of players would actually turn out to be much stronger than it seemed.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
Except nobody suggested they should have made the final, either.  The argument you were responding to was that making a semifinal on home turf was "par for the course" and that Klinsmann didn't actually accomplish anything particularly special.

Wrong. The initial argument to which I responded was that Klinsmann "failed to make the World Cup final at home with a loaded German team."

I don't think we disagree much. But you're not even taking the time to actually read the conversation into which you're interjecting opinions.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

 
 
 and then losing to an Italian team that wasn't heavily fancied isn't really a huge feather in your cap.
 
 
 

 
Why couldn't Klinsman be like all of the other German Managers that have beaten Italy in a high level tournament? 
 
Was Low a shitty manager when Italy kicked their ass (with a much better and more mature German team) in the 2012 Euros?  
 
There is plenty to critique here, including that nonsense with Johnson, but 2006 world cup revisionist history is not necessary. I don't like sending Johnson home, it looks like sour grapes that, if necessary  it should be handled in private. But but the one part of Klinsman's managerial game that is most defensible is motivating the team and getting high level effort out of them. 

 

[McBride11]

Dont forget the USA - CR friendly tonight is 630 on ESPN. Gotta start getting back on track for the WCQ that starts up in November.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Dont forget the USA - CR friendly tonight is 630 on ESPN. Gotta start getting back on track for the WCQ that starts up in November.

 
The US U23s are also playing Canada at exactly the same time for 3rd place in CONCACAF.  The winner plays Colombia in Rio de Janeiro next March for a place in the Olympics.

 

[McBride11]

 
The US U23s are also playing Canada at exactly the same time for 3rd place in CONCACAF.  The winner plays Colombia in Rio de Janeiro next March for a place in the Olympics.

TV?

 

[Investor 11]

TV?

NBCUniverso

 

[Titans Bastard]

TV?

 
NBC Universo.  Nobody picked up the English language rights, but Canada has been streaming their games via YouTube, so hopefully that will be an option.  Their announcer was surprisingly good in the group stage.
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/CanadaSoccerTV

 

[Titans Bastard]

Hmmm.....
 
https://twitter.com/borussia_en/status/653910620966907904

 

[Vinho Tinto]

TV?

 
http://www.livesoccertv.com/match/1767106/usa-vs-canada/
 
If you don't have NBC Universo, you should look at the usual streaming sites.

 

[Titans Bastard]

https://twitter.com/ussoccer/status/654053690517626881

 

[nickandemmasuncle]

 
Why couldn't Klinsman be like all of the other German Managers that have beaten Italy in a high level tournament? 
 
Was Low a shitty manager when Italy kicked their ass (with a much better and more mature German team) in the 2012 Euros?  
 
There is plenty to critique here, including that nonsense with Johnson, but 2006 world cup revisionist history is not necessary.

 
Like I said, my opinion is on the harsher end of things, because I'm predisposed to think that Klinsmann is a fraud, but with the benefit of hindsight it's fair to say he had a pretty talented (if young) squad in 2006. Two years later they were in the final of what's arguably a tougher tournament played on foreign soil. If pushed, I'd buy that he met expectations in 2006, but I think it's generous to say that tournament reflects positively on his coaching ability.
 
And yeah, I know Germany always loses to Italy, but Low's had other major accomplishments, and his full body of work suggests that he has a clue, so I'd be willing to cut him some slack on that one where I wouldn't with Klinsmann.

 

[Titans Bastard]

zzzzzzzz
 
 
The US had one good chance, when Ream got on the end of a Brek Shea set piece, but that's it so far.

 

[McBride11]

And very nearly gave up a goal as the ball went thru Cameron's legs on a cross on the ground. 
 
They can't string together 5 passes.
 
edit - The Canadian #3 earns a second yellow for dissent and the US is up a player. 0-0 approaching half..
 
this YouTube channel thing from Canada is neat but somewhat choppy.

 

[McBride11]

Wood for Jozy
Mix for Jones
Alvarado for Cameron
 
Good
Good
Ok

 

[Titans Bastard]

Not a good look from Orozco there.  He tracked that ball like an uncoordinated 5th grader who the coach tries to hide in right field.

 

[Titans Bastard]

Spector on for Ream in the 64th minute.  Party like it's 2009.

 

[McBride11]

CR should have had a goal. Great cross and run. CR is outplaying this US team.
 
Wood looks much better than Jozy.
 
Anddd there is the goal for CR

 

[ifmanis5]

Hurray Gunners. USA looks awful. No talent, no organization. JK is a disaster.

 

[Titans Bastard]

1-0 CR
 
1-0 US U23s

 

[djhb20]

For what it's worth, we (generally) were saying the same thing as WC qualifying started up 4 years ago, and then things came together fairly well.

That said, it's hard to feel good about things these days.

 

[Titans Bastard]

U23s almost go up 2-0 when Hyndman's long range shot is deflected and nails the crossbar.  Ugly game, but 10-man Canada is getting worn down.  Apparently Kianz Froese was given a second yellow and sent off for dissent because he said "come on" and walked away after a foul.  CONCACAF'd!

 

[Arroyo Con Frijoles]

A bad team.

 

[Titans Bastard]

I'm struggling because the USMNT is wearing white playing against a team wearing blue and the U23s are wearing blue playing against a team wearing white.

 

[dirtynine]

Penalty to the US U-23. Could go up 2-0
 
edit: converted. Rio 1-gamer looking good. 

 

[Titans Bastard]

US soccer in one picture:
 
https://twitter.com/nickiluzada/status/654094548554002432

 

[Titans Bastard]

Jürgen looks as miserable as the rest of us.

 

[McBride11]

Pray Bradley stays healthy for all of WCQ. 

 

[Jimy Hendrix]

I like Hyndman's through balls, I hope his Fulham escape plan actually takes him somewhere worth giving up the development time for.

 

[OCST]

For what it's worth, we (generally) were saying the same thing as WC qualifying started up 4 years ago, and then things came together fairly well.

.

 
seemingly hitting rock bottom in 2013 with that Sporting News article that savaged JK for being a shitty manager... and then they went on a very good run starting with the "snow game."
 
If there hadn't been a blizzard that night, and CRC had won, JK might have been gone right then.

 

[dirtynine]

I cribbed this from BigSoccer (I normally stay away, but I needed to find some optimism after recent results...)

------------------------------------Jozy/Wood/Rubin
------Johnson/Zardes--------------------------------------Morris/Kiesewetter
------------------------------------Bradley/Hyndman-----------Nagbe/Zelalem
--------------------------------------------Williams/Kitchen/Trapp
Ream/Garza/Shea--------------------------------------------------------------------------Yedlin/Chandler
--------------------------Brooks/Besler----------------Cameron/Miazga
-------------------------------------------Howard/Guzan/Hamid

I'm not a formation guy per se, but I like the blend of names here.  I'd maybe shift Fabian Johnson backwards, and find a way to include Johannsen and Dempsey on the depth chart.  But it's nice to think about really turning the page, roster-wise. 

 

[DJnVa]

What's the solution? I think we're all coming to some sort of general agreement, but can anyone start a list?
 
1--Fire JK and hire _______.
 
2--"Retire" Wondo, Beckerman, DMB, ______, and ______ from USMNT immediately.
 
3--Bring in ________, ________, and ________ now and let them take some lumps while playing with the MNT.
 
I'm not saying these are the steps, but can anyone start to put the first few together?

 

[soxfan121]

1. Check the calendar, confirm it is 2015.
2. Tell everyone in the national pool under the age of 28 that the time is now to start playing your best soccer, and earn an invite to the January camp. 
3. Invite a bunch of new faces into January camp, based on current form and ability. 
 
OR

1. Check to make sure you have a towel.
2. Stick out your thumb.
3. DON'T PANIC.

 

[Titans Bastard]

1. Probably Peter Vermes if you want to keep it local.  Maybe Jesse Marsch, but he's inexperienced for this type of job.  But internationally there are plenty of fish in the sea and it would hardly be difficult to find a coach who has better leadership skills than Klinsmann and who can actually build a team identity and a tactical scheme that players understand and can execute.  You don't exactly need to hire Bielsa to upgrade.  I'm not totally sold on Vermes and would check to see who is available internationally first.
 
Also, anybody who will introduce a modicum of stability into the lineup.  Yes, the US player pool isn't at its peak, but I'm convinced it's made worse by the fact that the defensive pairings constantly change and that there's no identifiable spine.  Too much experimentation, too much tinkering.  It makes it difficult to learn much about players and formations and it has prevented any sort of gelling.
 
2. Wondo, Beckerman, DMB....and Jones, soon enough, though perhaps not immediately.
 
Chandler, Alvarado, and Diskerud would be set aside temporarily until they show signs of improvement.  Alvarado and Diskerud in particular haven't done much with their clubs that justify an NT callup, while Chandler is simply notorious for mailing it in with the USMNT.  His repeated lack of tracking back every game is criminal.
 
Something has to be done about Jozy, too.  When Bobby Wood comes on, his pressure and work off the ball is very noticeably superior to Jozy.  Something's wrong with Altidore right now, not just with his form, but with his whole mentality.  Whatever his issues are, they should be worked out at the club level not the NT level.
 
3. It's time for new blood at DM.  Danny Williams did NOT impress against Costa Rica.  JK has very shamefully wasted opportunities at the position on Bedoya, Diskerud, and Corona in the last year.  Test out some combination of Dax McCarty, Perry Kitchen, or some of the U23s like Trapp or Polster.  It's dumb that McCarty isn't part of the pool.  I'm not sure that he's the long-term answer, but he'd at least be established as a solid stopgap until some of the younger players develop into superior options.  Instead, we're scrambling.
 
Also call up Ethan Finlay, Darlington Nagbe, Matt Miazga, Sebastian Lletget.
 
Miazga is one of the USMNT's very best prospects who stands a good chance of starting in 2018.  Get him in the rotation - I wouldn't start him over Cameron/Besler just now, but the acclimatization process should begin immediately.
 
Finlay is an out-and-out winger with 20 goals and 20 assists over the last two seasons for Columbus.  Adds badly needed speed and would give us a real winger option instead of a bunch of out-position ones (Zardes, Yedlin).
 
Lletget is another wide player, but one whose game is built on skill more than speed.  Another option.
 
Nagbe, I think, would be a great fit for a 4-4-2 diamond, as a shuttler on the side who plays somewhat pinched in.  He leads MLS in chances created from open play this season.

 

[SocrManiac]

Something has to be done about Jozy, too.  When Bobby Wood comes on, his pressure and work off the ball is very noticeably superior to Jozy.  Something's wrong with Altidore right now, not just with his form, but with his whole mentality.  Whatever his issues are, they should be worked out at the club level not the NT level.

 
I have never understood the fascination with the guy. 
 
The one time I've seen him live it was difficult to articulate just how hurtful was to his team. There were a number of breaks where he'd be drifting toward the ball carrier, drawing his defender to the ball. This eliminated any outlet for his teammate and brought a double team with absolutely no consequence to the opponents. He had no sense of spacing whatsoever, no real direction of what he was supposed to be doing. For a big forward that should hold the ball up, he'll often return the ball to sender with his back to goal before he even feels the bump of a defender.
 
He's just... Not good. At all. At some point it needs to be understood that whatever potential he once possessed just isn't going to materialize. He's dragging the USMNT down while given repeated opportunities to realize it. I mentioned in another thread... Giovinco's service and pressure relief is going to generate stats that continue to inflate perceptions of Altidore's ability. Playing alongside the little Italian is going to make any forward look good right now. Time to cut bait and develop other forwards with potential that they may yet actually realize.

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

He is a poor man's Emile Hesky. Which is saying something (Not good).