Trevor Story - Second Base or Short Stop???

BravesField

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There appears to be a lot of confusion, opinions or lack of faith where Trevor Story should be playing in 2023 if X is playing somewhere else next year.

I think we all agree that Story is a talented ballplayer and we are fortunate to have him on the Sox. I am of the opinion that Story is a terrific Short Stop. I think even X said he was one of his favorite short stops in baseball. What I don't understand is why that feeling is not appreciated by a number of posters who think he is best suited to play second base going forward. These posters have mentioned quotes similar to "Story doesn't have the strength to throw from SS" or "he has a dead arm" or "he has elbow issues". Are they right????

I keep falling back to why Story was acquired in the first place. He was a late signing FA. Was he really obtained with the sole thought he was going to be the second baseman for 7 years? - a position he never played in the majors. I was of the opinion that if X should opt out, we have an inhouse solution, and a damn good one.

What do you think? Can/Should Story be the 2023 Short Stop if X is gone? Or should the Sox go back in the FA market and acquire another SS?
 

Yo La Tengo

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Do we have any info about Story's velocity this year?

When we were talking about Story over the winter, the issue was the condition of his arm (from earlier posts):

He has changed his throwing motion to accommodate the issue and his throwing velocity is consistently lower. He regularly threw 85 to low 90s mph through 2019 but over the last 2 years has only one throw that exceeded 85 mph.

In a story from last July, Rosenthal states: "The average velocity on the top 10 percent of Story’s throws is 78.1 mph, down from 80.4 last season and an average of 85.4 the four previous years."

View: https://twitter.com/mike_petriello/status/1453782342384988165
 

effectivelywild

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What we need is a version of that chart that includes 2022.
I do wonder if looking at his throw velocity this season though could give us some false conclusions given that I imagine there is less of a need for him to put on max velocity on throws as a second baseman compared to SS. You'd probably want to sacrifice a little oomph for accuracy, especially given that the first baseman would have less time to react and adjust to errant throws, especially given the fine leatherwork we've seen for the majority of this season that would make Eyechart green with envy.
 

nvalvo

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I do wonder if looking at his throw velocity this season though could give us some false conclusions given that I imagine there is less of a need for him to put on max velocity on throws as a second baseman compared to SS. You'd probably want to sacrifice a little oomph for accuracy, especially given that the first baseman would have less time to react and adjust to errant throws, especially given the fine leatherwork we've seen for the majority of this season that would make Eyechart green with envy.
These are good points.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I do wonder if looking at his throw velocity this season though could give us some false conclusions given that I imagine there is less of a need for him to put on max velocity on throws as a second baseman compared to SS. You'd probably want to sacrifice a little oomph for accuracy, especially given that the first baseman would have less time to react and adjust to errant throws, especially given the fine leatherwork we've seen for the majority of this season that would make Eyechart green with envy.
I think there would be at least one or two 90+ mph throws from second base throughout the season. If we could find the infield mph database we could compare to other 2B.
 

Al Zarilla

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I do wonder if looking at his throw velocity this season though could give us some false conclusions given that I imagine there is less of a need for him to put on max velocity on throws as a second baseman compared to SS. You'd probably want to sacrifice a little oomph for accuracy, especially given that the first baseman would have less time to react and adjust to errant throws, especially given the fine leatherwork we've seen for the majority of this season that would make Eyechart green with envy.
Second basemen do need all the velocity they can get on double plays in which they are the pivot guy at second. And of course, those throws are against the body and hard to get the velocity they can muster on a regular ground ball. Pedroia was a magician.
 

simplicio

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He failed the eye test rather dramatically the other night while shifted to the 3b side. A loop of a throw that looked more like a 3 point attempt than something you could get outs with.
 

effectivelywild

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Second basemen do need all the velocity they can get on double plays in which they are the pivot guy at second. And of course, those throws are against the body and hard to get the velocity they can muster on a regular ground ball. Pedroia was a magician.
I thought about that but your point about them being across the body and thus, likely to also be lower velocity would still drag down his numbers. Not saying that arm isn't important at 2nd, just that his velocity measurements on his throws from second might not be an accurate representation of what he would do at SS.
 

geoduck no quahog

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He failed the eye test rather dramatically the other night while shifted to the 3b side. A loop of a throw that looked more like a 3 point attempt than something you could get outs with.
That was a tough throw as he was headed towards left field and couldn’t get planted. Still, the point remains the Red Sox have an all star SS and excellent 2B in their grasp, not to ignore a premier 3B and high potential at 1B, so why fuck with things? To save the team some money?
 

gryoung

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I thought, from reading various sources at the time of the Story signing, that his days at SS were over. His elbow/arm was damaged and having him play 2B was always the plan. The fact he hasn't seen any time there this season should be a hint. His bat needs to be in the lineup every day. He plays a terrific 2B. Playing SS, apparently, could cause injury.

He plays 2B. If needed, find a SS for a couple of years until the talent comes up.
 

BravesField

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I thought, from reading various sources at the time of the Story signing, that his days at SS were over. His elbow/arm was damaged and having him play 2B was always the plan. The fact he hasn't seen any time there this season should be a hint. His bat needs to be in the lineup every day. He plays a terrific 2B. Playing SS, apparently, could cause injury.

He plays 2B. If needed, find a SS for a couple of years until the talent comes up.
I don't remember reading that. It's possible, but if that were the case, don't you think the Sox would've just gone out and got a second baseman.? Story had zero games at 2nd base before this year. The Sox spent a lot of money on a guy who has never played the position.....Or they could've just stuck Kike there and gone out and got an outfielder.
 

jon abbey

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Also moving from SS to 2B has to be the easiest position change in baseball, I can’t think of anyone who’s been unable to do that.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I don’t think the fact that Story hasn’t played any SS this year means anything. They’ve got an all star SS there; and Story was on the IL when guys like Hernandez and Dalbec were playing there. Now, he may not be able to play SS anymore but the fact that he hasn’t played there this year isn’t evidence of it IMO.
 

trs

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I thought about that but your point about them being across the body and thus, likely to also be lower velocity would still drag down his numbers. Not saying that arm isn't important at 2nd, just that his velocity measurements on his throws from second might not be an accurate representation of what he would do at SS.
True, and while some of those across-the-body throws from 2b might require an overhand throw, not as many as from SS.

Also, I would think that most top-velocity throws from SS would be from moving in the direction of 1b and using that momentum when throwing. This would happen at SS whenever playing a ball to the left or theoretically when receiving a throw from 2b on a double-play. Lastly, a 2b moving to the left would be moving ever closer to 1b, so that may not be a time to let it rip.

All in all, I think a velocity comp between someone playing SS and 2B is going to tell us a lot more about the nature of playing those positions than about the arm strength of the players.

edit: just realizing this is tangential, sorry!
 

effectivelywild

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I don't remember reading that. It's possible, but if that were the case, don't you think the Sox would've just gone out and got a second baseman.? Story had zero games at 2nd base before this year. The Sox spent a lot of money on a guy who has never played the position.....Or they could've just stuck Kike there and gone out and got an outfielder.
It's been pretty widely reported on, especially here with the signing. Not that SI necessarily is a paragon of reporting, but they mention it here and source reporting from here as well.

As far as moving Kike there----he showed last year that he was an excellent defensive outfielder and they may not have wanted to continue to move him around just to create another problem. I agree that at the time of the Story signing it seemed like he was at least potentially viewed as a replacement SS should Xander leave. As far as him not playing any SS this season, there are (in my mind) two possible scenarios:

1. His elbow/arm strength simply aren't at a level for him to play a good SS anymore.

2. Boston is still hoping to bring Xander back and don't see the point in antagonizing him by having his putative replacement take over his position, even just on off days. Especially given that Xander's defense has been by all accounts improved and something he has actively worked on, coupled with the desire to not mess with Story's acclimation to the other side of the bag.

I think both are possible and probably a combination of the two is at play. As to the condition of his arm---I'm assuming the health of his elbow is something the team is keeping an eye on and I'm sure they have a better sense of whether or not his arm could handle a move back to SS or not, just from day to day scouting that we probably don't have access to.
 

joe dokes

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I don't remember reading that. It's possible, but if that were the case, don't you think the Sox would've just gone out and got a second baseman.? Story had zero games at 2nd base before this year. The Sox spent a lot of money on a guy who has never played the position.....Or they could've just stuck Kike there and gone out and got an outfielder.
Maybe, in a burst of competence, the Sox people correctly figured that Story could handle it. (And, presumably, Story was good with it, or he would not have signed here).
 

BravesField

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I'm not as slick as most of you for posting graphs, but here goes.

I pulled these numbers from Baseball-Reference, 2021 Stats

Graph 1, I tried to collect all the top players over 120 games played at SS.

Graph 2, innings played.

Graph 3, Double Plays Turned.




Graph 1
2021 - SS - Fielding %
Rk Name Age Tm Lg G Ch PO A E Fld%
1 Kevin Newman
27​
PIT NL
132​
453​
164​
286​
3​
0.993​
2 Kyle Farmer
30​
CIN NL
121​
403​
128​
270​
5​
0.988​
3 Nicky Lopez
26​
KCR AL
148​
534​
156​
371​
7​
0.987​
4 Xander Bogaerts
28​
BOS AL
138​
523​
152​
362​
9​
0.983​
5 Brandon Crawford
34​
SFG NL
135​
517​
168​
340​
9​
0.983​
6 Dansby Swanson
27​
ATL NL
159​
571​
185​
376​
10​
0.982​
7 Nick Ahmed
31​
ARI NL
127​
481​
170​
302​
9​
0.981​
8 Carlos Correa
26​
HOU AL
148​
578​
183​
384​
11​
0.981​
9 J.P. Crawford
26​
SEA AL
160​
622​
222​
388​
12​
0.981​
10 Francisco Lindor
27​
NYM NL
124​
445​
160​
275​
10​
0.978​
11 Miguel Rojas
32​
MIA NL
128​
485​
191​
283​
11​
0.977​
12 Tim Anderson
28​
CHW AL
122​
432​
152​
270​
10​
0.977​
13 Andrelton Simmons
31​
MIN AL
131​
501​
167​
322​
12​
0.976​
14 Amed Rosario
25​
CLE AL
121​
414​
112​
292​
10​
0.976​
15 Trevor Story
28​
COL NL
138​
552​
190​
348​
14​
0.975​
16 Isiah Kiner-Falefa
26​
TEX AL
156​
669​
214​
436​
19​
0.972​
17 Elvis Andrus
32​
OAK AL
143​
513​
161​
337​
15​
0.971​




Graph 2
2021 - SS - Innings Played
Rk Name Age Tm Lg G Inn
1 J.P. Crawford
26​
SEA AL
160​
1412.1​
2 Dansby Swanson
27​
ATL NL
159​
1372​
3 Isiah Kiner-Falefa
26​
TEX AL
156​
1360​
4 Carlos Correa
26​
HOU AL
148​
1304.2​
5 Bo Bichette
23​
TOR AL
148​
1271.1​
6 Elvis Andrus
32​
OAK AL
143​
1246.1​
7 Nicky Lopez
26​
KCR AL
148​
1233.2​
8 Trevor Story
28​
COL NL
138​
1175​
9 Xander Bogaerts
28​
BOS AL
138​
1169​
10 Brandon Crawford
34​
SFG NL
135​
1165.2​
11 Willy Adames
25​
TOT MLB
136​
1150​
12 Andrelton Simmons
31​
MIN AL
131​
1091.2​
13 Kevin Newman
27​
PIT NL
132​
1074.1​
14 Miguel Rojas
32​
MIA NL
128​
1073​
15 Tim Anderson
28​
CHW AL
122​
1048​
16 Francisco Lindor
27​
NYM NL
124​
1029.1​
17 Nick Ahmed
31​
ARI NL
127​
1028​
18 Amed Rosario
25​
CLE AL
121​
1019.2​
19 Kyle Farmer
30​
CIN NL
121​
1008.2​




Graph 3
2021 - SS Double Plays Turned
Rk Name Age Tm DP Fld%
1 Isiah Kiner-Falefa
26​
TEX
98​
0.972​
2 Trevor Story
28​
COL
91​
0.975​
3 J.P. Crawford
26​
SEA
89​
0.981​
4 Miguel Rojas
32​
MIA
80​
0.977​
5 Nicky Lopez
26​
KCR
77​
0.987​
6 Xander Bogaerts
28​
BOS
76​
0.983​
7 Bo Bichette
23​
TOR
73​
0.957​
8 Carlos Correa
26​
HOU
70​
0.981​
9 Brandon Crawford
34​
SFG
68​
0.983​
10 Andrelton Simmons
31​
MIN
67​
0.976​
 

Sad Sam Jones

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Also moving from SS to 2B has to be the easiest position change in baseball, I can’t think of anyone who’s been unable to do that.
No one jumps to mind as having failed at it, but I do remember one of the parade of second basemen Cleveland had in the '90s between Baerga and Alomar having problems with the double-play early on. I don't recall who exactly it was, but Tony Fernandez would make sense. The one thing that's more difficult for the second baseman is having to turn the pivot on the double-play, because he has to get used to making the play with a runner coming in behind him.
 

radsoxfan

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My hunch is that given the elbow issues, potential shift change rules, and proven success transitioning to 2B, plan A is going to be Story at 2nd and sign Xander (or acquire another SS).

Story's flexibility is a nice option have and he may indeed end up there but not sold that's the preferred direction.
 

LogansDad

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If we could find the infield mph database we could compare to other 2B.
I found out today (after like 45 minutes of wasted time) that apparently this info "isn't publicly released". It's kind of weird to me that off all the stats and information out there, fielders' throwing velocity is like the one things that they don't disclose to us. Fangraphs even has columns for it, but no data in them. I wonder if Story's agent has embarrassing pictures of somebody and is trying to keep the data under wraps.

To add some substance, I agree with radsoxfan in that I think the plan is for Story to be the 2B for his time in Boston, and nothing I have seen from him at 2B has led me to believe otherwise. The apparent velocity on his throws just does not make me confident that he will be able to get anyone out on throws that are deep in the hole. I would love to be proven wrong, because a Trevor Story who can play SS effectively is an extremely valuable player (not that he isn't valuable at 2B).

I am still foolishly holding out hope that Xander opts in, but otherwise I suspect we will see them sign or trade for someone who can be a stopgap for the next two or three years.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Half on topic…. But at what point in the throw is the mph actually read? Entering the 1B glove or exiting the hand of the throw?
 

effectivelywild

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I found out today (after like 45 minutes of wasted time) that apparently this info "isn't publicly released". It's kind of weird to me that off all the stats and information out there, fielders' throwing velocity is like the one things that they don't disclose to us. Fangraphs even has columns for it, but no data in them. I wonder if Story's agent has embarrassing pictures of somebody and is trying to keep the data under wraps.

To add some substance, I agree with radsoxfan in that I think the plan is for Story to be the 2B for his time in Boston, and nothing I have seen from him at 2B has led me to believe otherwise. The apparent velocity on his throws just does not make me confident that he will be able to get anyone out on throws that are deep in the hole. I would love to be proven wrong, because a Trevor Story who can play SS effectively is an extremely valuable player (not that he isn't valuable at 2B).

I am still foolishly holding out hope that Xander opts in, but otherwise I suspect we will see them sign or trade for someone who can be a stopgap for the next two or three years.
I agree. I thought it was weird that I could find an article pretty easily detailing the number of SS throws over 92 mph, including the SS and date of game (for purposes of comparison to a minor leaguer) but not....the overall data.
 

LogansDad

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MLB finally released arm strength stats on Statcast two days ago, and, as expected, it isn't pretty for Story.

It's a new tool for me, and I am only just now getting into it, but out of all players who have 100+ throws at 2B/3B/SS he is 152nd out of 159 in average velocity, and 151st out of 159 in max velocity. He is a GREAT second baseman (almost all of his other metrics have him elite at 2B), but I just don't see how he can be moved to SS next season and be as valuable as he is at 2B. That isn't to say he can't do it, I just think he is far more valuable as a 2B.
 

Yo La Tengo

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Some good comparative info from Mike Petriello (he had the earlier graphs tracking Story's velocity):

In 2020, Story averaged 82.3 mph as a Rockies shortstop -- a good-not-great number, slightly below average for shortstops. In 2021, still at shortstop, that was down to 79.1 mph, largely believed to be related to a midseason elbow injury. In 2022, that’s down again, to 76 mph. So is that because the elbow isn’t allowing harder throws -- not that it’s mattered much, as he’s been excellent defensively -- or because his new position doesn’t demand it?
One answer to that is in the context of his new position; 76 mph is one of the weakest marks of any regular second baseman. But there’s also this, that Story has 195 tracked throws of at least 80 mph in his career -- he even topped 90 a few times early on -- but it’s happened only once since the 2021 All-Star break. It’s been well over a year since his last 80 mph+ throw, much of which he spent at shortstop; Arizona’s Ketel Marte, comparatively, has six such throws just this month.
It’s hard to think it’s entirely about Story’s move to the right side. That holds true when you realize he’s still played some left side in the shift, and his hardest throw from there was this 75.1 mph throw in April. (He has 14 harder throws from the right side, though obviously in far more opportunities.)
But the counterbalance to that is looking at a handful of infielders who have played on both sides of the bag just this season. (For this, we’ll just look at throws on fielded balls, not outfield relays or double play pivots.)
Take Tommy Edman, who has moved back and forth between both spots. His 10 hardest non-relay/pivot throws on the right side of the infield average 75.7 mph, maxing out at 78.2 mph. On the left side, it’s higher: 81.5 mph on average, maxing out at 84.9 mph.
In fact, if we look at the 16 fielders who had enough throws to qualify at both second base and shortstop this year, plus Story, and look at their comparisons on both sides of the bag ... every single one had a harder average throw from the left side than the right side, by an average of 5.3 mph.
Every one, that is, except Story. So the answer here might really be more than one answer, in that infielders who spend times on both sides of second base seem to throw harder from the left side, and Story might best be served as a second baseman going forward.

https://www.mlb.com/news/ronald-acuna-jr-owns-2022s-strongest-throwing-arm
 

nvalvo

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I don’t have the link handy, but Speier asked Story about this, and Story said he was confident that he could do still play SS, but hopes it doesn’t come to that, because he hopes Xander is still here.
 

dhappy42

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Some good comparative info from Mike Petriello (he had the earlier graphs tracking Story's velocity):

In 2020, Story averaged 82.3 mph as a Rockies shortstop -- a good-not-great number, slightly below average for shortstops. In 2021, still at shortstop, that was down to 79.1 mph, largely believed to be related to a midseason elbow injury. In 2022, that’s down again, to 76 mph. So is that because the elbow isn’t allowing harder throws -- not that it’s mattered much, as he’s been excellent defensively -- or because his new position doesn’t demand it?
One answer to that is in the context of his new position; 76 mph is one of the weakest marks of any regular second baseman. But there’s also this, that Story has 195 tracked throws of at least 80 mph in his career -- he even topped 90 a few times early on -- but it’s happened only once since the 2021 All-Star break. It’s been well over a year since his last 80 mph+ throw, much of which he spent at shortstop; Arizona’s Ketel Marte, comparatively, has six such throws just this month.
It’s hard to think it’s entirely about Story’s move to the right side. That holds true when you realize he’s still played some left side in the shift, and his hardest throw from there was this 75.1 mph throw in April. (He has 14 harder throws from the right side, though obviously in far more opportunities.)
But the counterbalance to that is looking at a handful of infielders who have played on both sides of the bag just this season. (For this, we’ll just look at throws on fielded balls, not outfield relays or double play pivots.)
Take Tommy Edman, who has moved back and forth between both spots. His 10 hardest non-relay/pivot throws on the right side of the infield average 75.7 mph, maxing out at 78.2 mph. On the left side, it’s higher: 81.5 mph on average, maxing out at 84.9 mph.
In fact, if we look at the 16 fielders who had enough throws to qualify at both second base and shortstop this year, plus Story, and look at their comparisons on both sides of the bag ... every single one had a harder average throw from the left side than the right side, by an average of 5.3 mph.
Every one, that is, except Story. So the answer here might really be more than one answer, in that infielders who spend times on both sides of second base seem to throw harder from the left side, and Story might best be served as a second baseman going forward.

https://www.mlb.com/news/ronald-acuna-jr-owns-2022s-strongest-throwing-arm
Average throwing speed seems to me a poor measurement of arm strength, especially for second basemen who tend to not have to throw hard to get outs, except when turning double plays. You want to know how hard they can throw, not the average velocity of all throws. Like pitchers, second basemen often intentionally lob or throw softly to first and to SS for putouts at 2B.

Perhaps better would be a stat that records how many times a batter was safe after hitting a ground ball fielded by the second baseman.
 

jon abbey

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You want to know how hard they can throw, not the average velocity of all throws.
This is in the quote you were answering, I don't think you're going to get more proof than this especially since this offseason, it behooves BOS to let the world think that Story can potentially play either SS or 2B while they figure out what is happening with Xander.

"But there’s also this, that Story has 195 tracked throws of at least 80 mph in his career -- he even topped 90 a few times early on -- but it’s happened only once since the 2021 All-Star break. It’s been well over a year since his last 80 mph+ throw, much of which he spent at shortstop; Arizona’s Ketel Marte, comparatively, has six such throws just this month."
 

Max Power

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If you read the definition of the stat, it says it's the average of the fastest 10% of throws for infielders, 5% for outfielders, and 1% for first basemen to account for the fact that the vast majority of throws are lobbed. The numbers match what everyone who has watched the games has seen. Story doesn't have the arm to play shortstop anymore.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Average throwing speed seems to me a poor measurement of arm strength, especially for second basemen who tend to not have to throw hard to get outs, except when turning double plays. You want to know how hard they can throw, not the average velocity of all throws. Like pitchers, second basemen often intentionally lob or throw softly to first and to SS for putouts at 2B.

Perhaps better would be a stat that records how many times a batter was safe after hitting a ground ball fielded by the second baseman.
Fair point, but i think it's still a bit disconcerting that Story's average speed is bottom of the barrel amongst second basemen this year. If he's weak compared to other players making throws of similar distances, that doesn't bode well for him having to make throws from farther away from first.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Fair point, but i think it's still a bit disconcerting that Story's average speed is bottom of the barrel amongst second basemen this year. If he's weak compared to other players making throws of similar distances, that doesn't bode well for him having to make throws from farther away from first.
True, but if he’s been excellent defensively at 2b despite “bottom of the barrel” velocity, perhaps that metric isn’t all that meaningful?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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True, but if he’s been excellent defensively at 2b despite “bottom of the barrel” velocity, perhaps that metric isn’t all that meaningful?
Not meaningful for evaluating second basemen, sure. But when the biggest concern about Story playing SS is whether he has the arm for it, it seems like a pretty relevant metric.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Not meaningful for evaluating second basemen, sure. But when the biggest concern about Story playing SS is whether he has the arm for it, it seems like a pretty relevant metric.
I mean, I guess…but his velocity at 2B has been more than adequate enough for him to be an excellent 2B. Perhaps it isn’t enough at SS, but perhaps he would be throwing the ball with more velocity….if he was playing SS?
 

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The average length of throw from second is way shorter than short so velocity makes less of a difference. There have to be far fewer bang-bang plays at second (double plays excepted) that would flip from out to safe with a weak throw.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
6,606
I read the article and I totally get it, but the fact that Story hasn’t thrown a ball more than 80 mph since 2021 is interesting, but not terribly meaningful to me, since he switched positions and clearly was more than adequate (I think the word we use here is “elite”) despite not throwing the ball hard. Maybe he can no longer play SS, it’s certainly possible, I’m just not sure that the velocity in which he throws the ball while playing 2b is conclusive evidence.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
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I read the article and I totally get it, but the fact that Story hasn’t thrown a ball more than 80 mph since 2021 is interesting, but not terribly meaningful to me, since he switched positions and clearly was more than adequate (I think the word we use here is “elite”) despite not throwing the ball hard. Maybe he can no longer play SS, it’s certainly possible, I’m just not sure that the velocity in which he throws the ball while playing 2b is conclusive evidence.
There are also stats cited from when he played SS last year.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
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Apr 9, 2007
16,161
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Maybe he can no longer play SS, it’s certainly possible, I’m just not sure that the velocity in which he throws the ball while playing 2b is conclusive evidence.
The person you quoted didn't suggest it was conclusive either. RHF said "that doesn't bode well " and that he was concerned and thought throw velocity is a relevant metric. All very reasonable, I think.

But since you say it is certainly possible, I guess you agree?
 

Ale Xander

doesn't like to back it in
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Oct 31, 2013
55,687
What happened to the 2B or not 2B thread title? That was awesome
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
6,606
The person you quoted didn't suggest it was conclusive either. RHF said "that doesn't bode well " and that he was concerned and thought throw velocity is a relevant metric. All very reasonable, I think.

But since you say it is certainly possible, I guess you agree?
Sure, I just disagree with statements, in this thread, like “Story doesn't have the arm to play shortstop anymore” which I think are perhaps a bit too definitive to me.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
14,213
Michigan
Velocity isn’t the only factor in throwing out runners. Footwork and glove-to-hand exchange times matter too. Otherwise, 100mph-throwing pitchers would make great shortstops.
 

Sin Duda

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Jul 16, 2005
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Velocity isn’t the only factor in throwing out runners. Footwork and glove-to-hand exchange times matter too. Otherwise, 100mph-throwing pitchers would make great shortstops.
Yes, but without the velocity, he's not playing shortstop. Just look at Pedroia as a relevant example. He had everything you mentioned and more ... positioning, first step, baseball IQ, footwork, hands, body control... But they still moved him off his college position, one where he was considered the best in the game.
 

Yo La Tengo

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Nov 21, 2005
458
Are folks arguing that his velocity hasn't dipped or it doesn't matter?

If the former, as previously shared (all throws from SS): In a story from last July, Rosenthal noted "The average velocity on the top 10 percent of Story’s throws is 78.1 mph, down from 80.4 last season and an average of 85.4 the four previous years."

Here's the chart:

56014

His velocity is without question down and has been trending down prior to his move to 2B. I would argue that his move to 2B was due in part to this issue.

Does it matter? If Story was moved back to SS, I think there are ways to attempt to offset that dip in velocity (through positioning, quicker release, etc) but I see no reason to try that experiment since he has been so good at 2B and defense at that position will be more important next year as the shift will be limited.
 

lexrageorge

Member
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Jul 31, 2007
15,599
Nothing wrong with having a great defensive 2B with a decent bat. Given his struggle with injuries this season, keep him at second.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
14,213
Michigan
nm
Are folks arguing that his velocity hasn't dipped or it doesn't matter?

If the former, as previously shared (all throws from SS): In a story from last July, Rosenthal noted "The average velocity on the top 10 percent of Story’s throws is 78.1 mph, down from 80.4 last season and an average of 85.4 the four previous years."

Here's the chart:

View attachment 56014

His velocity is without question down and has been trending down prior to his move to 2B. I would argue that his move to 2B was due in part to this issue.

Does it matter? If Story was moved back to SS, I think there are ways to attempt to offset that dip in velocity (through positioning, quicker release, etc) but I see no reason to try that experiment since he has been so good at 2B and defense at that position will be more important next year as the shift will be limited.
No one is arguing that Story’s velocity has not dipped. Or that it doesn’t matter. But it probably doesn’t matter as much as some people seem to fear with regard to SS and probably not at all playing 2B. (I’d keep him at 2B.). Do we know that his elbow-injury-induced loss of velocity is permanent?
 

BravesField

lurker
Oct 27, 2021
118
Yes, but without the velocity, he's not playing shortstop. Just look at Pedroia as a relevant example. He had everything you mentioned and more ... positioning, first step, baseball IQ, footwork, hands, body control... But they still moved him off his college position, one where he was considered the best in the game.
Well I'm not so sure Pedroia is a relevant example. He only played 6 games as a SS In MLB. I'm guessing Mookie and a lot of other played ballplayers played SS in High School and College, that also got moved for one reason or another.

I'll see if I can sum up the facts, as I understand them.

1. Trevor Story was put on the IL, late May 2021. He was diagnosed with elbow inflammation, not an "arm injury" but elbow inflammation.
2. He spent 10 days on the IL, and was cleared to play. And, played the rest of 2021 as a short stop.

MRI on Trevor Story's ailing elbow comes back clean, per Colorado Rockies (espn.com)

3. According to Patrick Saunders, the Rockies Beat Writer, the Rockies wanted to sign Story to be "their longtime shortstop."
Saunders: Trevor Story, booed by Red Sox nation, will be OK (denverpost.com)


4. Story signs with Boston. Now, is it with the understanding that this is a 6 year deal to be just a second baseman, or is Chaim signing him as SS insurance in case X leaves. I guess only Chaim knows that.

So we have 2 camps out there, He can't play SS any longer, and he can play SS going forward.

Here's the confusion on my part.....

If the Colorado Rockies, who should know Story better than anyone, were willing to sign Story and keep him at short stop, then where is the issue? Who has the better facts, the Rockies or a random poster telling us about throwing velocity?

And how does Chaim fit in this? Why would Chaim give out a 6 year deal if he has any doubts at all about his elbow?

You know we probably could have just re-signed Iglesias to play second this year, or left Kike there and maybe signed Schwarber to play OF. (Just a random thought)

I guess we'll just wait and see. If X leaves, and the Sox move, or don't move Story, we'll know the answer.