Gronk showing up early, interrupting the TB12/BB lovefest and then enlisting Manning in an impromptu roasting of Brady was my highlight. From a fanservice perspective, that had everything and I agree that the BB segment alone is hugely compelling.
Tom Brady is retired
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
So can one of the brains here tell me if this thread should make me happy or mad?
View: https://twitter.com/scottbarrettdfb/status/1622683888408530951?s=46&t=u_g56eRJqEDZRor0fWbqDQ
View: https://twitter.com/scottbarrettdfb/status/1622683888408530951?s=46&t=u_g56eRJqEDZRor0fWbqDQ
I'll let the smart folks here weigh in, but that seems like a bullshit framing of a non-controversial point: Gronk was pretty goddamn good. (And, the "non-Gronk" years are weighted in favor of Brady's early years, when the "system QB/game manager" charges were being levied.)
I mean… the Pats won the Super Bowl four times without Gronk - 2001, 2003, 2004, and 2016 (Gronk played the first 8 games then was out the rest of the season, including playoffs).
Brady put up spectacular seasons without Gronk. He just won the Super Bowl a couple years ago without Gronk (thus, 5 of his 9).
That one can find A stat that makes Brady and Alex Smith seem similar doesn’t exactly prove the point.
Brady put up spectacular seasons without Gronk. He just won the Super Bowl a couple years ago without Gronk (thus, 5 of his 9).
That one can find A stat that makes Brady and Alex Smith seem similar doesn’t exactly prove the point.
Exactly. He should do that study using Brady’s numbers from 2007-on. See how his non Gronk stats look then.
Narrator: they’re pretty good.
We’re doing adjusted yards per attempt for 2010+ when Gronk doesn’t play? I haven’t seen Cherry picking like this since Variteks sleep disorder.
The Gronk-less stats are fucking stupid because a whole lot of those games just happened to come in 2013 and 2019, when not only did Brady not have Gronk but also had arguably the worst collection of skill position players in football around him. Let's see how Mahomes' stats look if the Chiefs go into 2023 with the same offense and Kelce is out for the season.
Maybe it was BS but Manning saying that he stayed in the AFC partly because he wanted to earn it by going through Brady was kinda cool. It's clear that these two really admire and respect each other.
This is so true—and one of the reasons I roll my eyes when people call him “arrogant.” An arrogant guy is not likely to be as meticulous, detail oriented, and warmly complimentary to players as BB is. And not just his own. He’s gushed over many over the years, especially Ed Reed, Peyton, and the pre-Pats play of Rosevelt Colvin and Moss.
Last edited:
How many times have we heard Belichick chuckle? Not snicker… chuckle? There are at least two occasions when BB was audibly laughing. Imagine such a thing. I thought it was quite endearing, a word I thought I’d never use to describe Coach Bill.
And generally speaking, I thought I’d had my fill of Gronk-the-Meathead. But he was genuinely hilarious jumping on while BB was talking. Received plenty of compliments as well prior to his appearance. Jabbing Brady by talking about how Manning would have led him better on passes up the seam as opposed to Brady getting him killed was amazing. Brady was laughing, but Manning seemed silent then; I think he may have even been uncomfortable which is even funnier.
Gronk’s emotional clock will forever be stuck at age 16.
And generally speaking, I thought I’d had my fill of Gronk-the-Meathead. But he was genuinely hilarious jumping on while BB was talking. Received plenty of compliments as well prior to his appearance. Jabbing Brady by talking about how Manning would have led him better on passes up the seam as opposed to Brady getting him killed was amazing. Brady was laughing, but Manning seemed silent then; I think he may have even been uncomfortable which is even funnier.
Gronk’s emotional clock will forever be stuck at age 16.
Ah right. I forgot about the FG with very little time left to take it from 10-3 to 13-3. Good call.
Speaking of Brady & BB, that one was Brady actually making the call and convincing BB to do it. "Just kick the field goal...the game is over" or something like that.
Bill Belichick is just an entirely different person when he's around players, talking to players, as opposed to when he's talking to almost anyone else - particularly members of the media. He lives for the players, and they all know it, and I just love seeing these little moments. I feel like that's the "real" Belichick, and we only get glimpses of it because he's that guy 12+ hours a day but it's all in meetings and practices away from our view.
Posnanski had a few of those glimpses, a few years ago: https://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/everyones-got-a-bill-belichick-story/
If we remove Gronk from how those stats are framed, the Gronk-less games become a random sample of games which mostly (40 out of 73 by my count) took place when Brady was 42-45 years old, while the Gronk games are a sample of games which mostly took place when Brady was in his 30s, so we'd expect Brady's stats with Gronk to be better based just on his age.
Last edited:
Speaking of Brady without Gronk, I was looking back to the 2016 season and it's just mind boggling what he did. Probably one of the most underrated QB seasons of all time in retrospect. The five players with most targets that season were Julian Edelman, Chris Hogan, Martellus Bennett, Malcolm Mitchell and Danny Amendola and he put up 4691 yards, 35 TD/5 INT and 33.1 points per game in 15 starts including playoffs (in which he went 14-1, with the sole loss requiring a last second goal line stand by Seattle). Over 34 points scored in every playoff game. What the fuck. Likely another MVP he didn't win due to the bullshit suspension (to couple with the 2008 MVP he 100% would have won if not for the ACL tear).
No one is a good enough actor to fake the relationship and mutual admiration those guys showed on that podcast.
I am sure there was tension near the end, but we can now say definitively Seth Wickersham is not a reliable reporter, or at least his writing on their relationship was badly slanted either intentionally or because he wasn't dutiful about tracking the biases of his sources.
I’ve said for a while now that the Bill we see is not the Bill the players see. So when we have people here calling him arrogant or an a-hole, it’s almost all strictly based on his press conferences, not on how he truly is 98% of the time.
I think when we hear him in this context, we get a little glimpse into the “real” Bill Belichick, and while yeah he’s hard nosed, it’s a completely different picture.
Even the whole “rip Brady in front of his teammates” thing apparently was something Brady was in favor of, as it allowed him to relate to his teammates and better lead. So what looked like BB being an ass to his star player and how could he do that, turns out to be something Brady himself advocated for. Instead of it being BB is a jerk to the GOAT, and no wonder Brady wants to leave, it really was BB giving Brady tools to lead better. Who knew?
I think when we hear him in this context, we get a little glimpse into the “real” Bill Belichick, and while yeah he’s hard nosed, it’s a completely different picture.
Even the whole “rip Brady in front of his teammates” thing apparently was something Brady was in favor of, as it allowed him to relate to his teammates and better lead. So what looked like BB being an ass to his star player and how could he do that, turns out to be something Brady himself advocated for. Instead of it being BB is a jerk to the GOAT, and no wonder Brady wants to leave, it really was BB giving Brady tools to lead better. Who knew?
You should. Blame the meddling woman. Tom and Bill are adults and any strain in their relationship is between them.
I made the disclaimer stronger than the actual context of the post, never did I say she was the source for strains in their relationship, but yeah, probably best not to make this about Gisele in any way, I'll edit it out.
I really think they parted ways over money, and years. Tom wanted both, and Bill was either unwilling, or not quick and enthusiastic enough about offering them. All the other palace intrigue speculation is likely just noise.
The Guerrero stuff definitely played a part as well, but I'll agree the issue of guaranteed money and years/confidence in Brady being able to maintain a high level of performance in his 40s likely was the main source of the relationship souring in the end.
Maybe my favorite Belichick story is in the lead up to SB36, when Lawyer Milloy complained to BB that he had a tiny hotel room, and rookie Richard Seymour had a bigger one.
From the Washington Post quoted on boston.com:
From the Washington Post quoted on boston.com:
Yeah, I mean, I think Bill genuinely thought that Tom's effectiveness had a very, very short shelf life, and he has always said he'd rather "get rid of" (which isn't really a fair way to characterize this situation, but whatever) a guy a year too early rather than a year too late. I think he truly felt that it was time to start the rebuild, unless Tom would play for peanuts, which wasn't a fair ask of Tom (and Bill knew it). Tom probably still wanted to play for NE but even though he's never really demanded top dollar, he didn't want peanuts either. So it made sense for both parties for Tom to move on, even though I'm sure neither *preferred* it. But during that time, those conversations were probably super uncomfortable and not enjoyable for either guy. Of course there would be tension there. But both these guys can obviously step back from that and say, holy cow, look what we did together for 20 years, and fully appreciate it all. They obviously have the utmost respect for each other and care a great deal about one another personally. There's genuine affection there.
Good point on the TB12 stuff, though I wonder if that was also a symptom of the looming contract impasse, rather than a root cause. I really enjoyed the podcast. It’s really cool, though not very surprising to me, that they are able to appreciate each other like that. It would honestly surprise me more if 2 guys who went through, and achieved everything they did for 20 years, didn’t have a high degree of respect and admiration for each other. Although, come to think of it Bradshaw and Noll had a long period of estrangement that I’m not sure they ever fully resolved. So, it is very nice, and maybe not as much of a given, to see these guys on such good terms. I think whenever the ceremony to honor Tom occurs, their comments and interactions with each other will be very emotional, and must see for all Patriots fans.
Of all the cool, mind blowing stats being thrown around about Brady, this one is the one that surprised me the most:
He played in the old 31 team, 3 divisions in each conference NFL, with the so called "balanced" schedule. It took me a minute to figure out, why they had played the colts twice in his first season as a starter, during the regular season (Colts were in the AFC East, because they were originally in Baltimore). Obviously the last guy in the NFL to do so.
Other guys who retired recently who were pre-2002
He played in the old 31 team, 3 divisions in each conference NFL, with the so called "balanced" schedule. It took me a minute to figure out, why they had played the colts twice in his first season as a starter, during the regular season (Colts were in the AFC East, because they were originally in Baltimore). Obviously the last guy in the NFL to do so.
Other guys who retired recently who were pre-2002
Drew Brees (2020)
Sebastian Janikowski (2018)
Shane Lechler (2017)
Oakland took Janikowski and Lechler in the same draft as Brady (2000). Brees was the 2001 draft.
Sebastian Janikowski (2018)
Shane Lechler (2017)
Oakland took Janikowski and Lechler in the same draft as Brady (2000). Brees was the 2001 draft.
I think the best parts of the podcast (and all of it was great) were:
Tom audibly choking up when Bill was paying tribute to his abilities, including how much he'd learned from Tom about how to coach better--and that summation doesn't do justice to the details. As part of that discussion, Belichick mentioned--at least twice--that players win games, not coaches. Coaches can lose games, but only players can win them. (The arrogance, the sheer hubris of this would-be king of the gridiron... )
Gronk saying that he almost got into five accidents pulling off the highway so he could call in.
The genuine respect, affection, and admiration that exists between Tom and Peyton Manning--they even made an Eli joke. And based on their relatively brief talk about the game, I think that nothing would be better (for us as fans) than for them to do a podcast in which they break down games.
Just a joy to listen to--even with Jim Gray's fawning.
Tom audibly choking up when Bill was paying tribute to his abilities, including how much he'd learned from Tom about how to coach better--and that summation doesn't do justice to the details. As part of that discussion, Belichick mentioned--at least twice--that players win games, not coaches. Coaches can lose games, but only players can win them. (The arrogance, the sheer hubris of this would-be king of the gridiron...
)Gronk saying that he almost got into five accidents pulling off the highway so he could call in.
The genuine respect, affection, and admiration that exists between Tom and Peyton Manning--they even made an Eli joke. And based on their relatively brief talk about the game, I think that nothing would be better (for us as fans) than for them to do a podcast in which they break down games.
Just a joy to listen to--even with Jim Gray's fawning.
Jim Gray is, frankly, super annoying. But yeah, the BB part, the Peyton part, and even the Gronk part - what a blast of a podcast, and you can tell that these guys all like and love each other and have a ton of respect for each other. Mutual admiration society.
But they hate their coach! Heck, even Gronk hammed it up with BB, so if there was any animosity between them, man, that’s water under the bridge for sure. They seem like they get along great.
But they hate their coach! Heck, even Gronk hammed it up with BB, so if there was any animosity between them, man, that’s water under the bridge for sure. They seem like they get along great.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to acknowledge that Brady evolved to be a bit of a diva in his later Pats years (e.g. skipping minicamp - for whatever reason, indicating he was tired of getting yelled at but yelling at teammates/coaches, feeling "unappreciated" (money? respect? accommodations to lifestyle/personal circumstances?), not to mention the calculus around his contract. He deserved every penny of what he wanted, but I think Bill the GM knew that acceding to his contract demands with Brady's age/performance risk profile would have had an impact on the future roster that he (Bill the Coach) wasn't willing to accept. Turns out Brady outperformed the expected return, a decision that BB got "wrong". C'est la guerre.
The culture of excellence and perfection built by Belichick, with Brady leading the way, would be challenging for any player to accept for an entire career. That Brady "took it" for 20 years is almost unbelievable, even though he was central to creating it in the first place and was the key player that led to the team's success ("the bullseye was always on Tom").
So of course there was tension between the two (and RKK) at the end. And they have acknowledged that. Listening carefully, Brady commented that sometime after he left New England he grew to understand and appreciate how BB managed the team from players 1 to 53. It took some time for the relationship to thaw, but likely a key moment in the post-Patriot era was the 30 minutes BB spent with Brady after the game in Foxboro.
There's nothing wrong with taking the high road and putting a gloss on events like the two did on the podcast. Taking the high road is never the wrong decision, much to the chagrin of the bleating talk radio media. I think everything they said was genuine, reflected maturity in their relationship, but also needed some time and separation to create.
The culture of excellence and perfection built by Belichick, with Brady leading the way, would be challenging for any player to accept for an entire career. That Brady "took it" for 20 years is almost unbelievable, even though he was central to creating it in the first place and was the key player that led to the team's success ("the bullseye was always on Tom").
So of course there was tension between the two (and RKK) at the end. And they have acknowledged that. Listening carefully, Brady commented that sometime after he left New England he grew to understand and appreciate how BB managed the team from players 1 to 53. It took some time for the relationship to thaw, but likely a key moment in the post-Patriot era was the 30 minutes BB spent with Brady after the game in Foxboro.
There's nothing wrong with taking the high road and putting a gloss on events like the two did on the podcast. Taking the high road is never the wrong decision, much to the chagrin of the bleating talk radio media. I think everything they said was genuine, reflected maturity in their relationship, but also needed some time and separation to create.
Like the ones Tom put him through leading him in the seam, which Peyton never would have done….
That was even funnier considering Peyton was likely the one guy who would fit balls into players in the direction of a hit over the middle more often than Tom.
I often wondered who would win more titles if you swapped Peyton and Brady - put Peyton on the Pats and Brady on the Colts (and, I guess, Broncos).
By the way, Peyton did have some terrific defenses during his career.
In Indy:
2002 - #7 points, #8 yards
2005 - #2 points, #11 yards
2007 - #1 points, #3 yards
2008 - #7 points, #11 yards
2009 - #8 points, #18 yards (yards not so great, but #8 in points is really good)
In Denver:
2012 - #4 points, #2 yards
2015 - #4 points, #1 yards
Even in 2014, while Denver’s D was ranked #16 in points allowed (meh), they were #3 in yards allowed, which is awesome.
So it’s not like Peyton never played with good defenses.
That 2007 Colts team was pretty awesome actually. 13-3 record (one of those losses to NE). #3 scoring offense, #1 scoring defense. Lost a meaningless game in week 17 to the Titans. Lost to NE by 4. Lost to SD by 2 points in the regular season. Lost again to SD in the playoffs by 4. That team was fantastic. Bummer for them though. LOL
In Indy:
2002 - #7 points, #8 yards
2005 - #2 points, #11 yards
2007 - #1 points, #3 yards
2008 - #7 points, #11 yards
2009 - #8 points, #18 yards (yards not so great, but #8 in points is really good)
In Denver:
2012 - #4 points, #2 yards
2015 - #4 points, #1 yards
Even in 2014, while Denver’s D was ranked #16 in points allowed (meh), they were #3 in yards allowed, which is awesome.
So it’s not like Peyton never played with good defenses.
That 2007 Colts team was pretty awesome actually. 13-3 record (one of those losses to NE). #3 scoring offense, #1 scoring defense. Lost a meaningless game in week 17 to the Titans. Lost to NE by 4. Lost to SD by 2 points in the regular season. Lost again to SD in the playoffs by 4. That team was fantastic. Bummer for them though. LOL
The bolded is the likely answer, not just for Wickersham but some of the other farfalards who have written hit pieces on BFB and the Pats over the years. Sure, some like Borges and McDonough had intentional slants to their writing, but many lately have been cutting corners or skipping due diligence in a desire to hit the market with meaty clicks and as quickly as possible. In some ways the latter is worse because it's harder to spot at first glance, but it's also easier to understand the desperation of competition in a dying industry.
I know Wickersham has a great deal of respect from his peers and I assume that is well-earned. And, what I came away with is that the most likely scenario was a) some extended people in the Brady-verse were leaking to him (no idea how close or distant---could be anyone from TB12 marketing to Youk to Yee to third-hand guy who gave him post-workout avacado cream massages) and b) he began to view everything through that prism, leading him to share a fundamentally not-wrong conclusions ("there's tension and issues between Brady, Kraft, BB about future path") in a way that probably misrepresented or over-emphasized the level of personal friction as opposed to just "it's time for all of us for different reasons to do different things"
that could all be wrong, and YMMV, but to me as we now have a couple more years of data his conclusion looks pretty accurate and his explanation of how and why the parties got there looks less and less likely to be accurate.
Totally agree with this take. Wickersham was more “right” than “wrong” in that there was definitely friction, but any characterization of it being at all personal was far from reality.
Confirmation bias is a really powerful thing. Once you start to see things through one lens, it’s very easy to start seeing things that aren’t really there. We do it as Pats fans all the time with the “everyone (including the NFL) hates the Pats” stuff. Inconsequential things get filtered through that and we are like, see, there’s another example of it!
And DFG is another example. Turns out the drop in pressure is fully explainable by science but if you are convinced the Pats cheated (the “Cheatriots”!), then the science doesn’t matter and it’s all about the weird texts and the trip to the bathroom before the game as evidence of wrongdoing.
If Wickersham believed that TB and BB disliked each other, it’s probably not hard to find “evidence” of that.
And DFG is another example. Turns out the drop in pressure is fully explainable by science but if you are convinced the Pats cheated (the “Cheatriots”!), then the science doesn’t matter and it’s all about the weird texts and the trip to the bathroom before the game as evidence of wrongdoing.
If Wickersham believed that TB and BB disliked each other, it’s probably not hard to find “evidence” of that.
Right. It was inevitable *professional* friction resulting from a set of circumstances that had never before existed in the NFL and probably won't ever again.
I mean, Brady left two years later. He was def. more right than wrong.
I've said this before, but I think people also overlook the strain Deflategate almost certainly put on their relationship. I mean, there's the "You'll have to ask Tom" stuff and the suspension. But there's also the fact that the whole scandal itself was ginned up largely as a way of getting back at Belichick for his dismissive attitude toward the league office leading up to Spygate and directed primarily at Brady.
It's absolutely water under the bridge now. But to think that wouldn't have put stresses on their relationship, especially when the whole thing lasted over the course of 19 months spanning three football seasons, is probably delusional.
Curran just noted this week on his podcast that he feels that some of the people in Brady’s orbit (he cited Tom Sr.) tend to overstate the degree of friction and resentment Tom held/holds against BB because THEY are upset on Brady’s behalf.
Conversely, I do think TB12 has shown himself to be very conflict-averse, so he himself may UNDERPLAY the problems between him and Bill or Kraft when speaking on the record about it.
It’s a bit of a web, to be sure, though I agree that Brady left predominantly because he was over it and Bill wasn’t gonna chase him.
Conversely, I do think TB12 has shown himself to be very conflict-averse, so he himself may UNDERPLAY the problems between him and Bill or Kraft when speaking on the record about it.
It’s a bit of a web, to be sure, though I agree that Brady left predominantly because he was over it and Bill wasn’t gonna chase him.
Sounds like we have add brilliance and fantastic memory to the list of Tom's GOAT attributes. Or, maybe they were already there.
Fair point about DFG. I wonder what they’ve spoken about “off the record” since then.
Well that's rich because Curran has been Brady Sr's direct outlet for his thoughts for years and years and years, and Curran has had NO Problem throwing those thoughts out there WITHOUT the caveat that it's Sr getting upset on Brady's behalf when Brady himself may not have been upset.
Whenever I think about BB writing his memoirs, there are three things I really really want to know:
1. Deflategate. Tell me all about it.
2. Malcolm Butler and the whole Eagles SB situation.
3. What happened at the end there that led to Tom Brady leaving.
1. Deflategate. Tell me all about it.
2. Malcolm Butler and the whole Eagles SB situation.
3. What happened at the end there that led to Tom Brady leaving.