Tom Brady is retired
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
You're right, comparing the era's is futile.
How do we compare Montana's career, where SF could outspend everyone if they chose, they basically couldn't lose anyone because there was no free agency, and Montana himself crossed the picket line and most of the SF players were against the strike in 1987 because they were being paid so well. Eddie D. also hit on Bill Walsh and a bunch of fantastic drafts.
So, I think it's more than just astroturf, rules and nutrition as to why we can't compare them. If Brady played the middle part of his career with Jerry Rice and Roger Craig and Rathman and John Taylor et al, and 4-5 defensive all pros, and all of the other studs that stayed there forever, he might have gotten to 13 rings.
The biggest gripe I have when people compare Brady to Montana is the idea that Brady couldn't handle playing in Montana's era. Brady is bigger and stronger than Montana and has taken a ton of pounding from elite defensive players. In a league where half of the QBs every year don't finish the season, Brady is arguably the greatest QB ironman of all time. And as much as we judge his outside training influences, he learned how to protect his body better than all of the old greats.
Brady being a pussy and yet surviving when QBs go down every day seems like complete cognitive dissonance.
See, this is where the "eras" debate gets murky. Brady learned how to protect his body and took on a training regimen under modern conditions. He certainly wasn't going to drink concussion water and develop the TB12 Method given where training rituals and restorative science was in Montana's time.
We can speculate how he would have held up in. that era -- which, of course, had fewer restrictions on how quarterbacks could be hit -- but to say anything conclusively seems like a stretch.
That's true. We can't retroactively give Montana access to modern training regimens. But as I said before, Brady is bigger than Montana. If he Montana can take a hit from LT, so can Brady.
And despite all of this restorative science, we have a crisis where the best QBs (or any of them) are struggling to produce complete seasons. Every fantasy owner knows it. That probably speaks more to the science on the defensive side, but the league is more violent despite every effort to correct it.
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yep. Anyone who thinks Brady can’t take a hit or couldn’t have handled life as a QB back then is insane. Remember the pounding he took in the AFC championship game against Denver and still let the team on a potentially game tying drive at the end? The dude is as tough as anybody has ever been playing the quarterback position, full stop. I do think he would not have played till age 45, but he would’ve had a long and glorious career even in that era.
Several Pats have talked about Brady being the toughest player on the team. He could take hits and also learned how to protect himself.
And he deserves tons of credit for the work he did, avocado shakes and all, to add to his longevity. He revolutionized training to such a degree that sports still haven't caught up to him.
And he deserves tons of credit for the work he did, avocado shakes and all, to add to his longevity. He revolutionized training to such a degree that sports still haven't caught up to him.
I just watched a youtube video called "Tom Brady gets clocked." Honestly most of the moments are obscure, but almost all of them involve breakdowns of the line around him, and he demonstrates crazy ball security awareness given the situations. He's a unicorn.
I would imagine it’s not just the quarterback protection afforded in the modern game but the wide receivers having so much freedom with the rules favoring them that bothers Montana. I’m sure he’d love to throw into some of those windows.
I wanted to see how much more, and for straight "rushing attempts" it was closer than I thought it was:
Montana: 2.4/game
Brady: 2.1/game
However, Montana was clearly a better runner, averaging 3.7 per rush while Brady was 1.6. Brady was never more than 110 yards in a season, while Montana eclipsed that 8 times.
Brady was soft.
Brady was afraid to take a hit.
Brady lacked toughness.
5 seconds of thinking. Find a better way than the bolded.
it’s hard not to be a better runner than brady but using ypc is totally ignoring the context that a huge portion of brady’s runs were short yardage sneaks. which he was extremely good at.
Brady was good for an average of 10 rushing first downs in a season, with a high of 23 in 2011. Pro-football-reference doesn't seem to have Joe Montana's rushing first downs listed aside from his final season. Peyton Manning averaged 5 rushing first downs per season.
Brady also caught 3 more passes than Montana, and punted the ball twice (Montana never punted).
That '15 AFCCG remains one of the wildest Brady games. Brady took 20 QB hits -- most by a QB in ANY game that season -- and I remember there being rumors he was concussed (didn't Giselle say something about this?).
It's making me mad just thinking about it. Yes, that Broncos defense was playing out of its mind, but 20 QB hits is unacceptable. Vollmer and Cannon were overwhelmed. Plus, even against a totally spent, noodle armed, barely able to drop back Peyton Manning the defense allowed that dreadful Broncos offense to drive 83 yards for a TD and then gave up another TD at the start of the 2nd quarter when Brady turned the ball over on our own 13 yard line (both to Owen Daniels).
And the Pats shouldn't have even been PLAYING in Mile High, this was the year in the final regular season game against Miami they ran the ball 17 of their first 20 plays with a washed up Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden uggghhhhhhhhhh I'll stop.
I don't think posting this in a Patriots-centric forum ignores that context. We all know that.
That 2015 season is truly etched in my brain as the one that got away because of Bill, in addition to the Butler benching, but I digress.
One week before that Miami lay down, Bill deferred in OT on the road against the Jets, giving NY the ball, and allowing them to drive down and win the game without TB or the offense touching the ball. They started the season 10-0, and their first loss was that horrible game in Denver, in which Brock Osweiler beat them, thanks to a horrible fumble by Chris Harper on a punt return in the snow.
Then they came home and lost to a horrible, 4-7 Eagles team led by Sam Bradford, which included a blocked punt by Philly right as the half ended for a touchdown to tie the game, a 99 pick six by Philly in the 3rd and then an 83 punt return td by Sproles minutes later.
The Pats then won their next two, before the infamous Jets game, and the absolute lay down against Miami, as if Bill was trying to teach the team a lesson or some shit.
One thing about that 2015 team is that its offense was obliterated by injuries. Dion Lewis, Julian Edelman, and LeGarrette Blount were lost for the season by the time the Pats went down to New Jersey. James White was emerging in his 2nd season but hadn't really become the true 3rd down back threat he eventually became. Brady, Gronk, Amendola, Bolden, and a washed Brandon LaFell was the offense. And, oh yeah, Steven Jackson.
IIRC, the weather in NJ was crappy, and by deferring the OT toss, Belichick was counting on both having the wind at their backs and the D being able to prevent a TD (Pats would have gotten a chance to get the ball back if the Jets kicked an FG). Pats defense was pathetic early in the game, but seemed to be coming along, holding the Jets to long FG try (which they made) and 3 punts in their final 4 drives. Instead, the Pats defense was awful in the OT and the Jets won.
Now, that Miami game plan is less defensible. But Brady's offense wasn't great when he did throw; again, a lot of key players were wearing street clothes.
I don't disagree with most of this, but deferring in overtime when the other team can ensure you never get the ball by scoring a touchdown is never, not in any way, defensible. It just isn't. It's overthinking and trying to think outside the box.
Once the Pats, they lost. The Steelers did it in 2019, they got the 3 and out, but JuJu coughed it up on their 2nd play and they lost. I believe the Vikings did it (after losing their QB), and pulled out the win. Can't think of many others. If it made sense, it would have happened regularly. It didn't, and it doesn't. I don't care if the field conditions look like the wind game in Buffalo, you take the fucking ball, particularly when you have the greatest fucking QB in history under center and home field advantage on the line.
Only two years earlier, the Pats chose to defer in OT in similar conditions and beat Peyton and the Broncos because of it. https://www.nfl.com/news/bill-belichick-explains-why-patriots-took-wind-in-ot-win-0ap2000000287894
Totally forgot that one.
As of the end of the 2022 season, the team that won the coin toss was 86-67-10 in overtime under the current rules, and 10-1 in the playoffs. At least Bill never tried it in the playoffs.
Yeah having the wind was more valuable in that game than getting the ball first. Perfect example of when you can defend kicking it there.
In 20 years, football historians are going to see that Belichick made the playoffs with Mac Fucking Jones at QB and build a new wing in Canton for that accomplishment alone.
If would be entirely appropriate for your tagline to change to "Throw Mac From The Train".
It'll never cease being incredible the Broncos won the Super Bowl that year. They won both these games against the two other best teams in the AFC:
A loss in either not only would've taken them out of home field, but they wouldn't even have won the division and there's not a shot in hell that offense would've won three road games. Instead, they got Pittsburgh at home with no Brown and forced a fumble when the Steelers were leading and driving in the fourth. They then held on for dear life against the Pats and got a Carolina team who although was 15-1, played a very weak schedule and just wasn't ready for the moment. It's one of the more improbable seasons ever but hey, they all count the same.
Brady took some big hits and usually got right back up after. The guy started in 2001 when there were noticeably fewer rules about hitting QBs, and big hits in general.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqTmz_-scYA
That season is just so infuriating. I can't even talk rationally about that regular season Denver game. The cherry on top was the Sports Illustrated cover of Osweiler the following week that shows a clear and obvious hold not being called on Easley (?) in the background. ("Brock On!" is a hilarious cover story in retrospect)
Even that Eagles game -- Pats go up 14-0 and are cruising... so they try a Nate Ebner surprise sort of onsides kick? Which the Eagles recover at their 41 and a few plays later score a TD.
Yeah, flags fly forever, they won fair and square, yadda yadda. The silver lining of sorts is that by a lot of measures the 15 Broncos defense is in elite company, and certainly Von Miller's final few months that season rank up there with any individual defender.
It's the 9-7 2011 Giants that will always grind my gears the most, I think. Their freaking defense ranked 25 (!) in points allowed. That team shouldn't have even made the playoffs, let alone won multiple road playoff games and the Super Bowl. Ugh.
Just to be clear, because I may have been the one that started this, I never said, or even meant to imply, that Brady isn't the GOAT, or wasn't tough as nails. But there's no way to dispute that what qualified as roughing the passer in 1983 is very different than what it was in 2013. There's no way to dispute that what DBs could get away with in 1983 is very different to what they could get away with in 2013.
Brady is the GOAT, and for what it's worth, Steve Young is my favorite even though Montana was better. I was only speaking to what I see as the futility of making statistical comparisons across eras.
Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing that at all. It's a claim that makes total sense. When Brady played in, say, 2004, the rules were still much more like the old rules (they'd change after that season), and we see what Brady did. Let's compare 2004 Brady to some normal years from other great QBs who played a few years earlier:
2004 Brady: 60.8%, 3,692 yds, 7.8 y/a, 28 td, 14 int, 92.6 rating
1996 Elway: 61.6%, 3,328 yds, 7.1 y/a, 26 td, 14 int, 89.2 rating
1983 Montana: 64.5%, 3,910 yds, 7.6 y/a, 26 td, 12 int, 94.6 rating
1991 Marino: 57.9%, 3,970 yds, 7.2 y/a, 25 td, 13 int, 85.8 rating
1989 Kelly: 58.3%, 3,130 yds, 8.0 y/a, 25 td, 18 int, 86.2 rating
Obviously all these guys had worse years than this and better years than this. The point is, Brady's passing numbers if he played in the same era as Elway/Montana/Marino, etc., would probably have looked very similar to those guys', and we have an idea that this likely would have been the case because Brady did play a few seasons before the rule changes came into play favoring the offense and passing game.
He probably would have had some years worse than this, and also some bonkers years where he threw for 4,300 yds, 30+ td, and fewer than 12 INT, but it likely wouldn't have been an every year kind of thing.
The irony of course is they the rules were changed because Brady was winning too much under the old rules and they wanted Peyton Manning to win. Which he did twice under the new rules but Brady still ended up winning more – not just in total but after the rules were changed as well. GOAT indeed.
The Pats offensive roster in Mile High in 2015 by the time the playoffs rolled around was a disaster.
The Pats center(Stork?) was not varying his snap routine and Denver had two guys in the backfield by the time Brady got the ball.
Still after all that, a two point conversion away from OT, after Ghost shanked an XP earlier.
What’s unreal is the clinic Brady and Gronk put on in the final drive when Gronk was being triple covered. Just unreal. Everyone knew Brady had 1/2 second to get rid of the ball and they knew where it was going and couldn’t stop it.
Somehow Denver lost Gronk on the 2point conversion and Brady never looked at him. I will never understand why.
The Pats center(Stork?) was not varying his snap routine and Denver had two guys in the backfield by the time Brady got the ball.
Still after all that, a two point conversion away from OT, after Ghost shanked an XP earlier.
What’s unreal is the clinic Brady and Gronk put on in the final drive when Gronk was being triple covered. Just unreal. Everyone knew Brady had 1/2 second to get rid of the ball and they knew where it was going and couldn’t stop it.
Somehow Denver lost Gronk on the 2point conversion and Brady never looked at him. I will never understand why.
It is amazing that my favorite Brady game is a loss, yet it is
And this is the one "flaw" with being so brilliant at reading defenses presnap.
Without actually knowing, I bet the read was Edelman and Gronk was double/tripled. Ofcourse they blew the Gronk coverage, but Brady had made up his mind presnap, and with no time, no adjustment.
The context of my sentence was "The idea of Brady being a __ coupled with his (accomplishments) represents cognitive dissonance." My point was that he is the opposite of that word given the evidence.
Whatever Mac did to your sister, I'm sorry. That's the only thing left to explain your infatuation. Simpsons "stop it, he's already dead," and whatnot.
That was the greatest monkey's paw moment in recent NFL history. Polian was so upset they were beating up his precious Pey Pey, and rigged the rules via his position on the rules committee (with the eager help of his minion Jeff Fischer) to try to make sure the mean old Patriots didn't beat up Pey Pey again.
And the very next year, the Patriots held the Colts to 3 points in the playoffs. THREE. FUCKING. POINTS.
There has never been a team with more confidence and swagger than the 2004 Patriots.
Unfortunately they are rarely talked about in terms of all-time great defenses, people talk about the '85 Bears, the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Bucks, the Steel Curtain, etc. but the 2003 & 2004 Pats finished first and second in defense those years, won back to back titles, and completely manhandled a bunch of high powered offenses. I guess they didn't have a flood of Hall of Famers (although they did have Seymour and Law) but they did have a ton of guys who would be in the Hall of Very Good (Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinnest, Ted Washington).
The 2004 Pats' defense:
DL
- Richard Seymour (NFL HOF)
- Ty Warren (really freaking good)
- Vince Wilfork (potential HOFer, Pats HOF)
LB
- Willie McGinest (Pats HOF)
- Mike Vrabel (Pats HOF)
- Ted Johnson (really good)
- Tedy Bruschi (Pats HOF)
DB
- Ty Law (NFL HOF, Pats HOF)
- Asante Samuel (4x Pro Bowl, 1x all-pro)
- Rodney Harrison (should be NFL HOF, Pats HOF)
- Eugene Wilson (really good)
So in their starting 11:
- 2 NFL HOFers
- 7 Pats HOFers
- 1 guy with multiple pro bowls and an all-pro
- 3 guys who didn't win awards but who were really good, really solid NFL players
That's a hell of a defense. Not the best ever, but really really good.
DL
- Richard Seymour (NFL HOF)
- Ty Warren (really freaking good)
- Vince Wilfork (potential HOFer, Pats HOF)
LB
- Willie McGinest (Pats HOF)
- Mike Vrabel (Pats HOF)
- Ted Johnson (really good)
- Tedy Bruschi (Pats HOF)
DB
- Ty Law (NFL HOF, Pats HOF)
- Asante Samuel (4x Pro Bowl, 1x all-pro)
- Rodney Harrison (should be NFL HOF, Pats HOF)
- Eugene Wilson (really good)
So in their starting 11:
- 2 NFL HOFers
- 7 Pats HOFers
- 1 guy with multiple pro bowls and an all-pro
- 3 guys who didn't win awards but who were really good, really solid NFL players
That's a hell of a defense. Not the best ever, but really really good.
Some real good depth guys too with Jarvis Green and Dan Klecko. Green had those 3 sacks in the championship game if i recall correctly.
That was back when I would use the bathroom or make a snack when we had the ball, because what I really wanted to watch was our D.
