Tim Tebow saves a fans life in the AFL?

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For the whole year to date, he's got a 759 OPS against righthanded pitchers. Lefties are eating him alive. He's as much a "prospect" as 3/4 of Salem's current roster. The whole "he's an embarrassment" schrick is becoming less and less relevant every day.
It's less that he's an embarrassment, and more that him getting the level of attention he gets is an embarrassment. As you say, 3/4 of Salem's current roster are as much a prospect as he is. None of them are going to be noted, let alone a headline story, on Sportscenter if they manage to get "called up" from Greenville.
 

E5 Yaz

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As you say, 3/4 of Salem's current roster are as much a prospect as he is. None of them are going to be noted, let alone a headline story, on Sportscenter if they manage to get "called up" from Greenville.
And none of them will be 30 next month
 

jon abbey

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Exactly, anyone else his age would have been released long ago. At least Alderson said he won't be called up to the bigs in September, but we'll see.
 

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For the whole year to date, he's got a 759 OPS against righthanded pitchers. Lefties are eating him alive. He's as much a "prospect" as 3/4 of Salem's current roster. The whole "he's an embarrassment" schrick is becoming less and less relevant every day.
As people have pointed out, he's 30 next month. Age is a huge component of what defines a legitimate prospect, so your claim is false on its face.

Look, the Mets are free to do what they want with their farm system. And I'll acknowledge that if/when they call him up, they'll reap some extreme promotional benefits. But I'm not going to pretend that makes the whole lot of them anything other than cynical con artists.
 

moondog80

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And none of them will be 30 next month
I don't think Tebow is a legit prospect, but isn't his 30 not the same as a typical 30 year old baseball player, given that it's been whatever many years since he last played real baseball?
 

Plympton91

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As people have pointed out, he's 30 next month. Age is a huge component of what defines a legitimate prospect, so your claim is false on its face.

Look, the Mets are free to do what they want with their farm system. And I'll acknowledge that if/when they call him up, they'll reap some extreme promotional benefits. But I'm not going to pretend that makes the whole lot of them anything other than cynical con artists.
Why does it matter if he's 30 or 26 like Jose Sermo at Salem? Is Jose Sermo taking the spot of a more deserving player too? There are hundreds of people in the low minors who have no prayer of making the majors. Why shouldn't a team give a spot to a Heisman Trophy winner instead of some no name, little talent hanger on who got drafted in the 30th round 4 years ago? The Heisman winner is generating revenue not only for the team, but for the vendors at the minor league parks who get extra sales from the attendance spike, for the municipal parks g garaGes serving the stadiums where he draws an extra 500 cars a night. And maybe among the thousands of extra kids whose parents bridng them to game a hundred or so decide to play baseball or softball instead of lacrosse or soccer.

But I get it. Liberals can't stand that his mother was told she should have an abortion, and diidnt. The more notoiety Tim Tebow gets, the more people hear that story. And that's bad. Because Something something choice.
 

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Exactly, anyone else his age would have been released long ago. At least Alderson said he won't be called up to the bigs in September, but we'll see.
Anyone else his age would have been in the minors for a decade. Age is normally a big part of how a prospect is defined, but that assumes a continuous development process. Was Rick Ankiel not a prospect because he was a 26 yr old in single A? If you take an extended leave from the sport or switch from pitching to hitting or flame out as a real pitcher and start throwing a knuckleball, etc, it's pretty obvious that impacts how your age is factored into the equation.
 

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I mean, all of that is true, but even Ankiel had 1000 big league ABs by the time he was Tebow's age. That being said, I don't actually have an opinion on this, so good luck to him.
 

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He's going to turn 35 as fast as a 30 year old who's been playing minor league baseball since getting drafted.

Also 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40.

And Father Time is hard to outsmart, even if you go to bed early and say your prayers instead of going out carousing.
 

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Why does it matter if he's 30 or 26 like Jose Sermo at Salem? Is Jose Sermo taking the spot of a more deserving player too? There are hundreds of people in the low minors who have no prayer of making the majors. Why shouldn't a team give a spot to a Heisman Trophy winner instead of some no name, little talent hanger on who got drafted in the 30th round 4 years ago?
They can absolutely do this. I'm not sure what your point is.

The Heisman winner is generating revenue not only for the team, but for the vendors at the minor league parks who get extra sales from the attendance spike, for the municipal parks g garaGes serving the stadiums where he draws an extra 500 cars a night. And maybe among the thousands of extra kids whose parents bridng them to game a hundred or so decide to play baseball or softball instead of lacrosse or soccer.
Again, this is a straw man, as I explicitly stated that I understood why the Mets are doing this and the value they expect to get from it.

But I get it. Liberals can't stand that his mother was told she should have an abortion, and diidnt. The more notoiety Tim Tebow gets, the more people hear that story. And that's bad. Because Something something choice.
Like most of what you post, this is simply beneath contempt.

The truth is the right wing fanatics with a skewed perspective on what religion means (like yourself) are the ones having difficulty accepting reality. Saint Timmy is such an icon that you have become the most delicate of snowflakes, unable to bear it when Tebow is called out for being the craven opportunist he is rather than being taken seriously.

My disdain for Tebow's quest has to do with the unseemly nature of the self-interested, hype-driven alliance between ESPN, the Mets and Tebow. You can agree or disagree with that, but leave the intellectually dishonest arguments in V&N where they belong.
 
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Plympton91

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Leaving aside the V&N bullshit, I guess I take issue with the last paragraph. What is it about this revenue generating, mutually beneficial transaction that drives you nuts? Tebow isn't "blocking" anybody, and that's the only criticism I can see as valid. Otherwise, it's something that brings more casual fans more often. There's nothing about the sports or business aspects to complain about. indeed, there was nowhere near this level of vitriol directed at Michael Jordan, and I followed his quixotic quest with the same rooting interest. Which is why I think it is exactly the left-wing V&N angle at play here.
 

Average Reds

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Leaving aside the V&N bullshit, I guess I take issue with the last paragraph. What is it about this revenue generating, mutually beneficial transaction that drives you nuts? Tebow isn't "blocking" anybody, and that's the only criticism I can see as valid. Otherwise, it's something that brings more casual fans more often. There's nothing about the sports or business aspects to complain about. indeed, there was nowhere near this level of vitriol directed at Michael Jordan, and I followed his quixotic quest with the same rooting interest. Which is why I think it is exactly the left-wing V&N angle at play here.
As I posted earlier, if Tebow were ever called up to the majors based on merit, it would (and should) be an astounding story. But we already know that this isn't going to be the case. He is where he is because the Mets and Tebow want to exploit his rabid followers.

That is his right. And if I were in his position, I'd probably do exactly what he's doing. But the media attention that is given to him is so over-the-top ridiculous that it turns me off.

For the record, Jordan is a great comp, because the media was as dishonest in reporting his attempt to switch sports as they (OK, ESPN) are now with Tebow. And while I didn't begrudge Jordan for his attempt, I didn't take it seriously either.

I would never have responded to your original post if not for the drive-by V&N comment. (Which, in your classic style, you claimed to "leave aside" before reiterating it.) And with that, I will leave this thread.
 
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Fred not Lynn

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A relevant and timely comp could also be Eddy Alvarez at Birmingham (AA - White Sox). The 2014 Olympic medalist in short track was signed as an undrafted free agent after the 2014 draft, and while he gets his share of note for his transition from another sport, he's seems to be earning his progress within the White Sox system despite having spent a chunk of time away from baseball (and being a bit older than most of his teammates and opponents).

http://m.milb.com/milb/player/657193

He got promoted to AAA at the tail end of last season, and held his own, but started this year back in Birmingham (quite possibly a victim of the Moncada trade). He's had a slower start this year, and was passed over for promotion when Moncada got called up, so I am not sure what his trajectory is at this point.
 

DrewDawg

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Tebow since call-up: .317/.398/.549, OPS of .947. His K/W ratio has dropped from nearly 3:1 to 2:1.

That OPS would be 2nd in league if he had enough PAs, but clearly he doesn't (only 91), but only 15 players in league have OPS over .800.

He's hitting the ball in the air a lot more and it's paying off.

He still leads the league in birthdays.
 

LoweTek

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I have friend who had two sons play D-1 baseball. Both were drafted twice. One made it to AA before getting released. I think I may have passed this along in another thread one time but he has a truth saying about minor league baseball (paraphrasing): "Every year 1,200 kids are drafted, 800-900 sign and 800-900 minor leaguers get released to make room for them."

Each team has maybe 15-20 legitimate prospects in their system, some a few more, some considerably less. Every other player is there to fill out rosters to provide competition for the real prospects. Here and there a lesser regarded minor league player blossoms but for the most part being released is the most likely outcome for 80-90% of draftees who sign.

Point being, Tebow is not taking anyone's spot, at least not anyone of any MLB consequence. He may be a spectacle but he's legitimately improving. Say what you will about him but all noise aside, the dude is an intense competitor, hard worker and an authentic athlete.

He came through Orlando (Kissimmee) over the past few days. 5,000 plus showed up to each of the games in a league where they are lucky to draw a few hundred. There was nearly a riot when he was sitting the entirety of one of the games to avoid an LHP.

I saw MJ play several times during his Birmingham AA season. There is no comparison. The circus was far larger for MJ. However, hate to say it, Tebow is a better baseball player than MJ was.
 

moondog80

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Teams should be searching for more Tim Tebows. Preferably younger, but even at his age it's a worthy investment. He's very likely not going to make the majors, but he does offer a black swan potential that doesn't exist with say, the 4th OF on the Greenville roster. This isn't a pefrect analogy, but it's somewhat like an NBA team wanting a 7'4" guy who has never played basketball over a 6'0" college all-american who is only a so-so athlete with average foot speed.
 

moondog80

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Teams already have Tebows, though. The Sea Dogs have Mike Olt, he of 400 PA in The Show, on their club. He's 28. There's lots of such guys around.

I'm not talking about failed prospects (though that may have merit too), but guys with freakish athletic skills and relatively minimal baseball experience.
 

Boggs26

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I'm not talking about failed prospects (though that may have merit too), but guys with freakish athletic skills and relatively minimal baseball experience.
Are there really that many examples of this though? What other non-baseball athletes who haven't made it in their sort of choice would be considered to have freakish athletic skills? Don't most of those guys at least hang on to a backup spot in their sport?

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Ford Frick's Asterisk

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I think the reason it's rare isn't so much that MLB teams aren't willing, but that the potential players are unwilling. How many athletes who have reached a high level of accomplishment and/or fame in another sport have the passion and attitude to live the minor league lifestyle for more than half the year? Plus the off-season training and the thick skin to put up with the ridicule of fans and media. I hate to shower Tebo with compliments, but I think he has the required combination of determination and humility to go through the process. He also has a weird cult following that shows up in droves at the park each night to tell him how much they admire him for doing this… some random world class track athlete trying the same thing probably wouldn't get the same support.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I think that lifestyle of training and playing every day is EXACTLY what Tebow wanted. The thrill of competing, the sense of belonging you get when you're getting dirty and sweaty as part of a team...things money (which Tebow seems to have more than enough of) doesn't buy. So many critics question his motives, and skip the plain obvious - playing baseball everyday is a pretty cool way to live while you're young enough to do it.
 

shaggydog2000

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I think that lifestyle of training and playing every day is EXACTLY what Tebow wanted. The thrill of competing, the sense of belonging you get when you're getting dirty and sweaty as part of a team...things money (which Tebow seems to have more than enough of) doesn't buy. So many critics question his motives, and skip the plain obvious - playing baseball everyday is a pretty cool way to live while you're young enough to do it.
Or when you'd desperately still like to be known as a "pro athlete" instead of a "horribly failed ex-pro athlete."
 

Fred not Lynn

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When you're an athlete, the most important game to you is the NEXT one...even if people around you won't stop talking about the last one...the beauty is once you're done playing, what people remember (with a few outlying exceptions ala Bill Buckner) is your success. Tim Tebow will always be Heisman Trophy winner Tim Tebow, not failed NFL Tim Tebow...

The baseball stuff is glorified beer league to him - he's doing it because he can afford it financially, and because the gatekeepers to the game will let him.
 

Marciano490

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Or when you'd desperately still like to be known as a "pro athlete" instead of a "horribly failed ex-pro athlete."
L oh L at "horribly failed." Like saying F. Scott Fitzgerald was a horribly failed writer because he didn't win the Nobel.
 

Dollar

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Name one that was worse in the last 25 years? One that was even less capable of throwing a spiral or checking down from the first intended receiver on a play?
Dude, really? I mean, Tebow wasn't a good quarterback and he wasn't accurate at all, but he was far from one of the worst quarterbacks in NFL history. Unlike a lot of shitty QBs, Tebow was generally able to avoid making big mistakes, he could escape the pocket and run for a first down when needed, and he could occasionally hit the deep ball. Ryan Leaf, Ryan Lindley, Craig Whelihan, Browning Nagle, John Skelton, Jamarcus Russell, Heath Shuler and Alex Van Pelt were all far worse, to name a handful.
 

shaggydog2000

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Dude, really? I mean, Tebow wasn't a good quarterback and he wasn't accurate at all, but he was far from one of the worst quarterbacks in NFL history. Unlike a lot of shitty QBs, Tebow was generally able to avoid making big mistakes, he could escape the pocket and run for a first down when needed, and he could occasionally hit the deep ball. Ryan Leaf, Ryan Lindley, Craig Whelihan, Browning Nagle, John Skelton, Jamarcus Russell, Heath Shuler and Alex Van Pelt were all far worse, to name a handful.
And I think those guy were all bad, but better capable of doing the main job of an NFL QB over the last 50 years, which is throwing a football.

So I went to pro football reference. I looked over the last 20 seasons for a QB who started at least half of a team's games and threw at least 200 hundred passes, just to say we had a decent sample size of data to evaluate suckiness. There were only two who had worse seasons than Tebow in 2011 (46.5%). Ryan Leaf in 98 (45.43%) and Akili Smith in 2000 (44.2%). I really had forgotten how terrible Akili Smith was. Ryan Leaf still had a higher career completion % than Tebow. Both those players played for far worse teams in eras where completion percentages were lower. The league averaged 60.8% completion rate in 2010 vs 58.2% in 2000, and 56.6% in 1998. That puts Leaf at 80% of the leauge average completion rate, Akili Smith at 76%, and Tebow at 76% of league average, if you want to create an OPS+ sort of stat to equate them all. So factoring in the league offensive performance standard and the talent around him, Tebow was most likely worse. Those teams around Leaf and Smith were terrible, and Tebow was sucking while surrounded by a playoff team. And being just as good as Akili Smith in terms of performance while being surrounded with every advantage you could have is not a good look.
 

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There is more to QB than just completing passes. Tebow was far from good. But his running and ball security helped offset a bit of his terrible throwing
 

E5 Yaz

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Those teams around Leaf and Smith were terrible, and Tebow was sucking while surrounded by a playoff team.
As much as I hate to wade into this quagmire, you might want to review the season in which Tebow was the quarterback for that playoff team. When you do, you'll see how the legend grew with the fourth-quarter comebacks he staged leading to his memorable playoff game. Actually, it's fair to say that Denver would not have made the playoffs that year were it not for Tebow's contributions to those comebacks
 

shaggydog2000

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As much as I hate to wade into this quagmire, you might want to review the season in which Tebow was the quarterback for that playoff team. When you do, you'll see how the legend grew with the fourth-quarter comebacks he staged leading to his memorable playoff game. Actually, it's fair to say that Denver would not have made the playoffs that year were it not for Tebow's contributions to those comebacks
So you believe he was actually a competent "winning" QB? If so, what is your excuse for why he was not deemed good enough to play for the Jets or any other team in the NFL after Denver's enormous mistake with him? NFL teams hate winning? Every single NFL front office is incompetent?
 

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So you believe he was actually a competent "winning" QB? If so, what is your excuse for why he was not deemed good enough to play for the Jets or any other team in the NFL after Denver's enormous mistake with him? NFL teams hate winning? Every single NFL front office is incompetent?
Nope, all I'm saying is for that stretch in that season, he had a great deal to do with the Broncos being a playoff team. Your post indicated the idea that he was riding the coattails of a playoff team. I just pointed out they went hand and hand, and that, for that season, he wasn't just along for the ride.
 

shaggydog2000

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Nope, all I'm saying is for that stretch in that season, he had a great deal to do with the Broncos being a playoff team. Your post indicated the idea that he was riding the coattails of a playoff team. I just pointed out they went hand and hand, and that, for that season, he wasn't just along for the ride.
The team went 8-8 and barely made the playoffs. They went 13-3 the next season by subbing in the corpse of Peyton Manning for him. He hurt much more than he helped. So do you think he is one of the worst NFL QB's of the last 30 years or not? If not, please prove to me why not. I've shown he was really historically bad at his primary job. The job that has overwhelmingly defined his position for 50 years. I can't believe people would actually argue that point with a straight face. I know ESPN would, but I'm thinking of actual human beings.
 

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The team went 8-8 and barely made the playoffs. They went 13-3 the next season by subbing in the corpse of Peyton Manning for him. He hurt much more than he helped. So do you think he is one of the worst NFL QB's of the last 30 years or not? If not, please prove to me why not. I've shown he was really historically bad at his primary job. The job that has overwhelmingly defined his position for 50 years. I can't believe people would actually argue that point with a straight face. I know ESPN would, but I'm thinking of actual human beings.
I'm not interested in the overall argument. I was pointing out an inaccuracy in your assessment of those Broncos as a playoff team that Tebow was hitching a ride upon. The rest of this debate doesn't interest me in the least.
 

scottyno

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The team went 8-8 and barely made the playoffs. They went 13-3 the next season by subbing in the corpse of Peyton Manning for him. He hurt much more than he helped. So do you think he is one of the worst NFL QB's of the last 30 years or not? If not, please prove to me why not. I've shown he was really historically bad at his primary job. The job that has overwhelmingly defined his position for 50 years. I can't believe people would actually argue that point with a straight face. I know ESPN would, but I'm thinking of actual human beings.
Every year teams completely fall apart because most backup qbs are ungodly terrible at being an NFL qb. Do you mean one of the worst primary starters? Because you can probably argue that, but the fact he was to be put in as the starter on a 1-4 team and didn't tank the season shows he was better than tons of NFL qbs.
 

Fred not Lynn

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For what it's worth, shaggydog said Tebow was the worst he'd ever seen play, not the worst in history...

And semi-back on the theme of other sport athletes and their MiLB exploits, Eddy Alvarez has been promoted to AAA Charlotte...
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The team went 8-8 and barely made the playoffs. They went 13-3 the next season by *subbing in the corpse of Peyton Manning* for him. He hurt much more than he helped. So do you think he is one of the worst NFL QB's of the last 30 years or not? If not, please prove to me why not. I've shown he was really historically bad at his primary job. The job that has overwhelmingly defined his position for 50 years. I can't believe people would actually argue that point with a straight face. I know ESPN would, but I'm thinking of actual human beings.
They made quite a few free agents signings for 2012, the rest of the division was terrible (they went 6-0 and the second place team was 7-9 overall), but you really kind of lose any chance of making your point when you refer to 2012 Peyton Manning as a corpse. The guy threw for 4700 yds on 68% and 37/11 for a 105.8 rating, which was good for third best of his career. It's not at all out of the realm to think a qb of that caliber could make a big difference.

Which is to say nothing of the fact that Tebow immediately went into the doghouse with the new coaching staff; even the fact that Fox, who had a clear dislike of him from jump street eventually had no choice to play him and bench Orton should tell you he wasn't even the worst qb on the team; Fox wanted no part of Tebowmania. Had mcdaniels not gotten fired and been able to use him like he intended, he may have had a very different career. I don't think anyone is saying he's a legit starting qb in the NFL or even a Brian Hoyer level, but saying he was the worst in the last 10-15 years is either betraying a bias or admitting you don't watch much football. Either way, it's a bridge too far.
 
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DrewDawg

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Coming back to Earth a bit: .272/.352/.465 for an OPS of .815 with 26/11 K/W ratio. He's only hitting .194 over his last 10 games.

It appears to be a pitching dominant league, as his OPS would be 7th in the league had he enough PAs to qualify.
 

The Needler

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There is more to QB than just completing passes. Tebow was far from good. But his running and ball security helped offset a bit of his terrible throwing
He had a very negative rushing DVOA (34th), and he fumbled 14 times, losing 11, in 11 starts -- worst in the league.