This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/trent-brown-patriots-players-thought-malik-cunningham-deserved-a-shot-to-be-our-qb

Kind of weird to see a player have the same sense of excitement some of us had in that pre-season game. Makes you wonder if the team would have rallied around Malik. I know he’s not the only one who was sad to see him go.

It’s the decision to not play him this year that gives me pause on Bill. It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Cellar-Door]

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/trent-brown-patriots-players-thought-malik-cunningham-deserved-a-shot-to-be-our-qb

Kind of weird to see a player have the same sense of excitement some of us had in that pre-season game. Makes you wonder if the team would have rallied around Malik. I know he’s not the only one who was sad to see him go.

It’s the decision to not play him this year that gives me pause on Bill. It doesn’t make sense.

He's not an NFL QB.... guys liked him and wanted him to get a shot at QB, of course they did. BUT.... 31 other NFL teams wouldn't give him a QB spot pre-season so he signed here to be a WR. Now BAL is gonna give him a look, but he's miles away from playing a game for them.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

He's not an NFL QB.... guys liked him and wanted him to get a shot at QB, of course they did. BUT.... 31 other NFL teams wouldn't give him a QB spot pre-season so he signed here to be a WR. Now BAL is gonna give him a look, but he's miles away from playing a game for them.

I knew there would be a semi-logical reply stating something along the lines of “he didn’t give them the best chance to win” / “every other team had a shot.”
Ive heard it. I understand that perception. I would have still liked to see an offense built around his skill set at least attempted. The fact they didn’t is stubborn, arrogant or both.

 

[lexrageorge]

I knew there would be a semi-logical reply stating something along the lines of “he didn’t give them the best chance to win” / “every other team had a shot.”
Ive heard it. I understand that perception. I would have still liked to see an offense built around his skill set at least attempted. The fact they didn’t is stubborn, arrogant or both.

More likely the other teams have seen tape, and aren’t exactly in a rush to change their offenses to accommodate Malik Cunningham. That goes for the Patriots as well.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I knew there would be a semi-logical reply stating something along the lines of “he didn’t give them the best chance to win” / “every other team had a shot.”
Ive heard it. I understand that perception. I would have still liked to see an offense built around his skill set at least attempted. The fact they didn’t is stubborn, arrogant or both.

Why?
It's neither stubborn nor arrogant not to play a guy you (and the rest of the league, and arguably the player) don't think has the skillet to play in the NFL. The idea that they should have rebuilt the entire offense on the fly, changing what all the actual NFL caliber players are learning and practicing to accommodate the him is insane. This isn't Madden, you can't just swap out the all the plays on a week by week basis.

 

[kenneycb]

I knew there would be a semi-logical reply stating something along the lines of “he didn’t give them the best chance to win” / “every other team had a shot.”
Ive heard it. I understand that perception. I would have still liked to see an offense built around his skill set at least attempted. The fact they didn’t is stubborn, arrogant or both.

What does an “offense built around his skill set” mean? In addition to the fact he may not be good, you can’t just reconstruct your offense (namely the OL) in the middle of the season. And doing it for a UDFA literally no team in the NFL for the whole season wanted until recently is foolhardy. Any team could have signed him before Week 14. The QB play this year has sucked with a ton of injuries Nobody did. Occam’s Razor says it’s because he sucks. He may prove everyone wrong but he’d be the exception.

The arrogance is in thinking it’s that’s easy.

 

[BigJimEd]

I knew there would be a semi-logical reply stating something along the lines of “he didn’t give them the best chance to win” / “every other team had a shot.”
Ive heard it. I understand that perception. I would have still liked to see an offense built around his skill set at least attempted. The fact they didn’t is stubborn, arrogant or both.

I can understand wanting to see Cunningham but the arrogance here is the post.

I wanted it and don't want to hear any logical reasons why not

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Wow guys. Slow down. I never said anything was easy

More likely the other teams have seen tape, and aren’t exactly in a rush to change their offenses to accommodate Malik Cunningham. That goes for the Patriots as well.

Everyone has seen college tape. I also saw the offense when he was QB in the pre season. Looked good. Trent and other players thought so too.

Why?
It's neither stubborn nor arrogant not to play a guy you (and the rest of the league, and arguably the player) don't think has the skillet to play in the NFL. The idea that they should have rebuilt the entire offense on the fly, changing what all the actual NFL caliber players are learning and practicing to accommodate the him is insane. This isn't Madden, you can't just swap out the all the plays on a week by week basis.

Arguably the player? You lost me there. I’m sure Malik thinks he can’t play in the NFL. That’s a hell of a statement.

Madden?? Please. If an offensive coordinator can’t adjust to another QB or can’t plan during the season to make some changes due to personnel then they suck as an OC.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about it being simple. It would have taken work. Work that an NFL level coaching system should be able to accomplish.

What does an “offense built around his skill set” mean? In addition to the fact he may not be good, you can’t just reconstruct your offense (namely the OL) in the middle of the season. And doing it for a UDFA literally no team in the NFL for the whole season wanted until recently is foolhardy. Any team could have signed him before Week 14. The QB play this year has sucked with a ton of injuries Nobody did. Occam’s Razor says it’s because he sucks. He may prove everyone wrong but he’d be the exception.

The arrogance is in thinking it’s that’s easy.

Again never said easy y’all decided that on your own. I’m watching backup QBs all over the NFL that no one else wanted make plays and look the part. My argument of it being arrogant and stubborn is that it wasn’t even tried. Just stayed the course.

the argument on the other side that they already knew the outcome and it would have been worse than the Mac and Zappe show is garbage. Quite literally none of you know that as a fact and are basing your info on the same people who have made all of these questionable offensive decisions the last two years (probably longer but I digress.)

The 31 other team argument is also foolish. Thinking that other teams weren’t interested other than the fact they just didn’t have room. There were absolutely other teams interested. Hes gone now right?

“Oh but they had their chance before and didn’t take him.” Please… It’s like roster construction evades some of you.

 

[kenneycb]

Because it’s basically unprecedented to completely change your offensive scheme mid season. That requires changing the playbook, coaching up the guys, getting the right personnel, etc. All when practicing basically doesn’t happen. It’s not a snap the fingers exercise. Putting aside the logistical impossibility, it’s also likely that Cunningham sucks and never plays a meaningful down.

Cunningham was on the practice squad for most of the year. Literally any team could sign him. There’s also been a ton of QB injuries this year so I’m not sure where the “didn’t have room” argument comes from. Why did the Jets prefer Trevor Simien? Browns prefer Joe Flacco? Bengals prefer AJ McCarron? Giants prefer Matt Barkley? Vikings prefer Josh Dobbs? I can keep going as this isn’t hard information to find. Those teams all signed (or traded for) shitty QBs midseason and did not deem Malik Cunningham worthy of roster space even though he was there for the taking for all but the couple weeks he was on the main roster.

Again, the arrogance is in thinking it’s as easy to change the offense as you suggest. Couple gadget plays, sure that’s doable. A whole gameplan, no f’ing way.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Because it’s basically unprecedented to completely change your offensive scheme mid season. That requires changing the playbook, coaching up the guys, getting the right personnel, etc. All when practicing basically doesn’t happen. It’s not a snap the fingers exercise. Putting aside the logistical impossibility, it’s also likely that Cunningham sucks and never plays a meaningful down.

Cunningham was on the practice squad for most of the year. Literally any team could sign him. There’s also been a ton of QB injuries this year so I’m not sure where the “didn’t have room” argument comes from. Why did the Jets prefer Trevor Simien? Browns prefer Joe Flacco? Bengals prefer AJ McCarron? Vikings prefer Josh Dobbs? I can keep going as this isn’t hard information to find.

You listed a bunch of Vet QBs and are asking me why a developmental QB wasn’t taken ahead of them?
I’m not saying he’s currently a starting level QB or should have been. I keep saying try. Like give it a shot. The same way they did in pre season. The same way they can in practice. Then it gets to in game. Rinse and repeat.

Do you have any evidence to back up your first sentence? I’m having a hard time believing it. Not that I’m saying it’s easy for christs sake.

 

[Bowhemian]

You listed a bunch of Vet QBs and are asking me why a developmental QB wasn’t taken ahead of them?
I’m not saying he’s currently a starting level QB or should have been. I keep saying try. Like give it a shot. The same way they did in pre season. The same way they can in practice. Then it gets to in game. Rinse and repeat.

Do you have any evidence to back up your first sentence? I’m having a hard time believing it. Not that I’m saying it’s easy for christs sake.

It would be criminal for a team to completely change it's offensive approach to tailor it to a player who may or may not be a starter.
Let's say you have 20 guys on the offense. Each of them has been learning and practicing the plays (the same offensive system the Pats have been playing for decades, BTW). Then because of one guy, who may not even make the team you want to completely change the offense?

Insanity.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Couldn’t they just run what they ran with Cam? You guys are making this a bigger change than it really is. How do you know if someone may or may not be a starter? By letting them play? Each of these guys have been learning the same system we’ve been running for decades? Then why are they so bad?

I see. I said tailor an offense to his skillset and you guys blew that the fuck out of proportion. Sprinkle in some plays that take advantage of his mobility. The “tailoring” part is really subjective. Can’t it be week to week like most offenses do depending on the defense they’re going up against? They can take what they currently run and add some other dimensions.

Again slow down.

 

[Garshaparra]

Couldn’t they just run what they ran with Cam? You guys are making this a bigger change than it really is. How do you know if someone may or may not be a starter? By letting them play? Each of these guys have been learning the same system we’ve been running for decades? Then why are they so bad?

I see. I said tailor an offense to his skillset and you guys blew that the fuck out of proportion. Sprinkle in some plays that take advantage of his mobility. The “tailoring” part is really subjective. Can’t it be week to week like most offenses do depending on the defense they’re going up against? They can take what they currently run and add some other dimensions.

Again slow down.

No FB. 2 healthy RBs for the majority of the season. 2 TEs who can't block (though one who can). They're just not built to do that job right now. That said, when they're losing 6-0 and 10-6 to other struggling teams, I can see the lure of "why not just try it?". We know BB is willing to try unorthodox game plans, but I don't think he could stomach potentially putting even more on the defense after repeated turnovers or 3-and-outs.

 

[lexrageorge]

Couldn’t they just run what they ran with Cam? You guys are making this a bigger change than it really is. How do you know if someone may or may not be a starter? By letting them play? Each of these guys have been learning the same system we’ve been running for decades? Then why are they so bad?

I see. I said tailor an offense to his skillset and you guys blew that the fuck out of proportion. Sprinkle in some plays that take advantage of his mobility. The “tailoring” part is really subjective. Can’t it be week to week like most offenses do depending on the defense they’re going up against? They can take what they currently run and add some other dimensions.

Again slow down.

You're making a wild leap of faith in assuming Cunningham could be 2020 Cam 2.0. Looking good in a couple of preseason games, against 3rd string defenders implementing vanilla game plans, is not indicative of his true ability or readiness to be a QB in the NFL. Yeah, so Trent Brown liked him. Doesn't mean he was fit to play for the Patriots. And it appears other NFL teams came to the same conclusion, so to say Cunningham's usage is an example of Bill's arrogance is a huge leap that is not supported by the facts so far.

Maybe Cunningham becomes a decent backup in a couple of years. More likely, he is out of the league by then, a-la Michael Bishop.

 

[Jimbodandy]

You listed a bunch of Vet QBs and are asking me why a developmental QB wasn’t taken ahead of them?
I’m not saying he’s currently a starting level QB or should have been. I keep saying try. Like give it a shot. The same way they did in pre season. The same way they can in practice. Then it gets to in game. Rinse and repeat.

Do you have any evidence to back up your first sentence? I’m having a hard time believing it. Not that I’m saying it’s easy for christs sake.

I get jonesing (no pun intended) for the backup backup backup quarterback, given the QB play of the team this year, but I think that you're overstating the importance of "the same way they did in pre season". Enough of the guys that Cunningham went against in a preseason game 2 fourth quarter are currently working in Home Depot as to make anything that he did utterly meaningless. He got 6 attempts to McSorley's 4, and his 3-6 for 19 yards isn't really something to dream on.

 

[tims4wins]

I mean Will Grier went 29-35 for 305 and 2 TDs plus 10 carries for 53 yard and 2 TDs in his preseason start, why didn't they let him have a shot??!!

Edit: if not clear, I am not being serious and am in agreement with @Jimbodandy and others

 

[bunchabums]

Hard to watch the Rams game and not be influenced by the narrative of the young coach, an offense with some young (drafted) dynamic players, a Rams team coming out of a reset post the Super Bowl, etc.

Or maybe Al Michaels blathering on about it played a part.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Hard to watch the Rams game and not be influenced by the narrative of the young coach, an offense with some young (drafted) dynamic players, a Rams team coming out of a reset post the Super Bowl, etc.

Or maybe Al Michaels blathering on about it played a part.

First - I want no part of the Rams team-building approach.

Second - Last 3 years 1 game over .500.

Third - Everyone has been trying to hire the next McVay for the last 5 years...it isn't easy.

 

[johnmd20]

First - I want no part of the Rams team-building approach.

Second - Last 3 years 1 game over .500.

Third - Everyone has been trying to hire the next McVay for the last 5 years...it isn't easy.

The Pats definitely couldn't use rookies like Kyren Williams and Puka Nacua. Absolutely, yesiree. Better to have Parker and Juju and Zeke. Dynamic, explosive performance from that trio.

And you want no pat of a team that has made the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 seasons, won the SB in one of them, made the SB in another, and are on pace for a playoff spot this year with one of the youngest rosters in the NFL?

 

[Garshaparra]

The Pats definitely couldn't use rookies like Kyren Williams and Puka Nacua. Absolutely, yesiree. Better to have Parker and Juju and Zeke. Dynamic, explosive performance from that trio.

And you want no pat of a team that has made the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 seasons, won the SB in one of them, made the SB in another, and are on pace for a playoff spot this year with one of the youngest rosters in the NFL?

I was definitely fuming over that last night. How could the Rams, who seem to have traded away their #1s for the next decade, manage to land a 6'2" X with such elegant hands in traffic?

*reviews predraft numbers* Puka ran a 4.6 40. No wonder he dropped to the 5th round. Analytics can kill sometimes.

 

[Silverdude2167]

The Pats definitely couldn't use rookies like Kyren Williams and Puka Nacua. Absolutely, yesiree. Better to have Parker and Juju and Zeke. Dynamic, explosive performance from that trio.

And you want no pat of a team that has made the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 seasons, won the SB in one of them, made the SB in another, and are on pace for a playoff spot this year with one of the youngest rosters in the NFL?

They have 77 million in dead cap space this year and haven't had a first-round draft pick since 2017. They may have one of the youngest rosters in the league, but all the key talent that makes them good is old. And we are saying they are good but they are 8-7. If they had lost today they would not be on pace for a playoff spot.

Their GM subscribes very heavily to the go-for-it-now approach to team building. I personally do not like that, so yes I do not want the Pats to follow that approach to team building.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

No FB. 2 healthy RBs for the majority of the season. 2 TEs who can't block (though one who can). They're just not built to do that job right now. That said, when they're losing 6-0 and 10-6 to other struggling teams, I can see the lure of "why not just try it?". We know BB is willing to try unorthodox game plans, but I don't think he could stomach potentially putting even more on the defense after repeated turnovers or 3-and-outs.

Could have picked up a FB off the street. Even though 32 teams didn’t like them at FB this person may have been able to play. You know what maybe 36 teams. Quite possible there were some CFL teams that weren’t keen on him either. The assumption that all of the teams think he can’t play because he wasn’t on a roster is so trash. There are only so many positions. I have no doubt there are a handful of people walking around right now who no team is currently interested in that can play NFL football. Just because they don’t have a job doesn’t make them terrible. Mac Jones has a job.

You're making a wild leap of faith in assuming Cunningham could be 2020 Cam 2.0. Looking good in a couple of preseason games, against 3rd string defenders implementing vanilla game plans, is not indicative of his true ability or readiness to be a QB in the NFL. Yeah, so Trent Brown liked him. Doesn't mean he was fit to play for the Patriots. And it appears other NFL teams came to the same conclusion, so to say Cunningham's usage is an example of Bill's arrogance is a huge leap that is not supported by the facts so far.

Maybe Cunningham becomes a decent backup in a couple of years. More likely, he is out of the league by then, a-la Michael Bishop.

The facts. Kid looked good in limited play. Teammates thought so too. Who was calling Bill arrogant? This is a whole office failure. This is on the entire offensive coaching staff for thinking status quo would work.

I get jonesing (no pun intended) for the backup backup backup quarterback, given the QB play of the team this year, but I think that you're overstating the importance of "the same way they did in pre season". Enough of the guys that Cunningham went against in a preseason game 2 fourth quarter are currently working in Home Depot as to make anything that he did utterly meaningless. He got 6 attempts to McSorley's 4, and his 3-6 for 19 yards isn't really something to dream on.

It wasn’t until I heard teammates saying they were excited. If starting Malik meant 100% of Trent Brown every game does it change some perspectives? Maybe Parker stretches that extra inch? The team was reverse rallying around Jones.

 

[Jimbodandy]

It wasn’t until I heard teammates saying they were excited. If starting Malik meant 100% of Trent Brown every game does it change some perspectives? Maybe Parker stretches that extra inch? The team was reverse rallying around Jones.

Yeah I hear you, if there were a groundswell of support for Cunningham, sure. But I suspect that you're reading into a throwaway comment from a teammate who may have just appreciated the guy's company and wanted to see his friend get a shot. Nothing malevolent in that, since I suspect most of us in any industry have pumped up a coworker that's a good dude for something.

And I get you about taking a "what's the downside" approach to it. But honestly every GM could have had Malik. Bill liked him as a project WR, and we've seen that turn out ok in rare cases--Edelman famously, but Steve Neal was a college wrestler turned NFL guard, the Steelers' QBs turned WR, etc. If Bill sees a possible future for Malik as a WR, they wouldn't be doing him any favors giving him QB responsibilities beyond a small gadget set.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

Because it’s basically unprecedented to completely change your offensive scheme mid season.

This is what the Broncos did for Tebow.

 

[Silverdude2167]

This is what the Broncos did for Tebow.

Is this supposed to be an example of good results?

I did enjoy how that season ended for the Broncos.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

Is this supposed to be an example of good results?

It's supposed to be addressing precedent.

 

[Strike4]

Yeah I hear you, if there were a groundswell of support for Cunningham, sure. But I suspect that you're reading into a throwaway comment from a teammate who may have just appreciated the guy's company and wanted to see his friend get a shot. Nothing malevolent in that, since I suspect most of us in any industry have pumped up a coworker that's a good dude for something.

And I get you about taking a "what's the downside" approach to it. But honestly every GM could have had Malik. Bill liked him as a project WR, and we've seen that turn out ok in rare cases--Edelman famously, but Steve Neal was a college wrestler turned NFL guard, the Steelers' QBs turned WR, etc. If Bill sees a possible future for Malik as a WR, they wouldn't be doing him any favors giving him QB responsibilities beyond a small gadget set.

Andy Hart from WEEI was on for his weekly call with the Big Jab and he was like normally we say loose lips sink ships, but it's also sinking ships cause loose lips. He chalked the Brown comments more up to players now being in an environment where they are more willing to speak out about things pretty freely. Nobody wants to do that when you've won six games in a row and are trying to get the #2 seed etc. But when you're already at the bottom, there's nothing left to mess up.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I really will never understand the fascination with Cunningham other than “he’s exciting” and “the Pats need a mobile/modern QB” type reasoning. Problem is, neither of those things make him an actual NFL Qb

he was a solid, unspectacular college QB who was largely considered undraftable and a guy who needed to switch positions to make it in the pros. Given how valuable QB’s are and the league wide desire for athleticism at that position, it follows that the league generally didn’t view him as a legit QB prospect given he was undrafted

The Pats barely used him at QB in practice, giving him mostly reps at WR or limited time at QB with 3rd/4th team offense.

he then goes on to have one drive which looks solid, against Houston’s 4th string guys making one impressive throw (the one Nixon couldn’t haul in). He did nothing of note in albeit limited preseason action after that.

he then gets cut, available to all other teams, and despite Pats fans being convinced he would never clear waivers, he did and went unclaimed on their practice squad for most of the season even with QB’s dropping like flies league wide.

he’s a very good athlete. But being fast and agile doesn’t mean much as a QB if you’re not a credible threat to throw the ball. And there really is no evidence that he can throw at an NFL level. Should he have been given a chance in a lost season to throw in regular season action? Maybe? I would assume that if he was throwing well in practice, he would have gotten a shot. But the Pats had to figure out if Mac was salvageable and I think they (understandably) would prefer to see if Zappe can be develop and be any sort of bridge/backup moving forward than hope a 25 year old undrafted athlete can provide some spark or excitement to the offense.

I get that fans would prefer “bad and interesting” over “bad and crushingly dull” but I don’t think there’s any reason to think for the short or medium term playing Cunningham would have been beneficial to the team. And frankly, I think if he had been showing up big in practice as an actual passer, he would have gotten more regular season snaps.

 

[Cellar-Door]

So generally...

1. You can't just run the Cam offense because it was 4 years ago, most of the roster wasn't here and the base for it was significantly different than the current system... Also Cunningham isn't Cam.

2. Tebow was not actually a full mid-season change, they drafted him in the 1st and inserted a lot of stuff in the summer with the plan for him to take over at some point.

3. Cunningham is not a guy who you prioritize over keeping your young online and WRs in the same system, those guys are going to be here next year

 

[NextBigThing8184]

This is what the Broncos did for Tebow.

Not exactly. They had built a lot of “Tebow packages” into the offense prior to him taking over for Orton in 2011. They didn’t completely rework the offensive scheme mid season as much as they just focused more on the packages which had specifically designed for Tebow

also a little different given Tebow was their presumed QB of the future at that point given he was their first round pick and they had laid 2 full camps of groundwork designing plays for him

 

[Toe Nash]

They have 77 million in dead cap space this year and haven't had a first-round draft pick since 2017. They may have one of the youngest rosters in the league, but all the key talent that makes them good is old. And we are saying they are good but they are 8-7. If they had lost today they would not be on pace for a playoff spot.

Their GM subscribes very heavily to the go-for-it-now approach to team building. I personally do not like that, so yes I do not want the Pats to follow that approach to team building.

People were just talking about how impressive their young picks are. Kupp has only played 63% of snaps and is well off his prime numbers, Donald is still great but not DPOY great, and they have still managed to rebuild the team (and Kupp and Donald can probably find another gear if they make any noise in the playoffs). Stafford is 35; he has more injuries in his history than I would like but I bet he can play at a high level for 2-3 more years.

They are just 8-7 but that is shocking given that they truly went all in to win it all and have a lot of dead money etc. Isn't it amazing that they are in a playoff position WITH 77 M in DEAD SPACE?!!

Obviously you can't just find a McVay but they have done a few things that BB has never been interested in doing:

• Go all-in for a year or two and take a year off from really trying to compete when the team makeup warrants it to re-set the cap etc
  • Bill could have done this in 2020 with COVID having no impact on fans in the seats but he cobbled together a ridiculous offense based on Cam Newton who was not the future QB for the team because Bill will never give up on a season even if it's his best chance to build a future contender. He's going to be forced to do it this year when the roster is worse and it could take much longer to dig out.
• Trade first round picks for obvious upgrades
  • They didn't have first rounders because they traded them to get quarterbacks. Those QBs got them to the super bowl and then got them the QB that won the super bowl. Seems fine to me.

The latter is easier when you can draft a Cooper Kupp in the 3rd round, so it all comes back to scouting but I don't have a problem at all with the team building philosophy over there. You can re-set a roster and cap in literally a year, there's no such thing as long-term cap hell. And no one cared that the Pats went 7-9 in 2020 instead of 3-13.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

So generally...

1. You can't just run the Cam offense because it was 4 years ago, most of the roster wasn't here and the base for it was significantly different than the current system... Also Cunningham isn't Cam.

2. Tebow was not actually a full mid-season change, they drafted him in the 1st and inserted a lot of stuff in the summer with the plan for him to take over at some point.

3. Cunningham is not a guy who you prioritize over keeping your young online and WRs in the same system, those guys are going to be here next year

point #3 is an important one. Even though it’s a write off season, you still need to see what you have (and try to develop) guys like Sow, Mafi, Strange (prior to injury), Douglas etc

Giving those guys continued reps in a meaningful way, consistent with what they’ve been asked to do for months, is more likely to be beneficial moving forward than having Cunningham have a few exciting draw plays.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

People were just talking about how impressive their young picks are. Kupp has only played 63% of snaps and is well off his prime numbers, Donald is still great but not DPOY great, and they have still managed to rebuild the team (and Kupp and Donald can probably find another gear if they make any noise in the playoffs). Stafford is 35; he has more injuries in his history than I would like but I bet he can play at a high level for 2-3 more years.

They are just 8-7 but that is shocking given that they truly went all in to win it all and have a lot of dead money etc. Isn't it amazing that they are in a playoff position WITH 77 M in DEAD SPACE?!!

Obviously you can't just find a McVay but they have done a few things that BB has never been interested in doing:

• Go all-in for a year or two and take a year off from really trying to compete when the team makeup warrants it to re-set the cap etc
  • Bill could have done this in 2020 with COVID having no impact on fans in the seats but he cobbled together a ridiculous offense based on Cam Newton who was not the future QB for the team because Bill will never give up on a season even if it's his best chance to build a future contender. He's going to be forced to do it this year when the roster is worse and it could take much longer to dig out.
• Trade first round picks for obvious upgrades
  • They didn't have first rounders because they traded them to get quarterbacks. Those QBs got them to the super bowl and then got them the QB that won the super bowl. Seems fine to me.

The latter is easier when you can draft a Cooper Kupp in the 3rd round, so it all comes back to scouting but I don't have a problem at all with the team building philosophy over there. You can re-set a roster and cap in literally a year, there's no such thing as long-term cap hell. And no one cared that the Pats went 7-9 in 2020 instead of 3-13.

BB traded a 1st round pick for Brandin Cooks. How is trading a 1st rounder not something he’s “never shown interest in doing”? They’ve also traded multiple 2nd round picks for upgrades (Dillon, Welker, Sanu)

The Rams have a ton of dead cap, but also have a generational talent at DT, a franchise QB and an MVP WR. They’ve drafted a few late round gems which is the only reason they’re (barely) above .500 and relevant this season.

What McVey has done is impressive, but in a league where QB/WR is critical, and you have both those positions locked up wins against Arizona x2, Cleveland with Flacco, early season Colts, Washington, New Orleans and Seattle x2 aren’t quite as impressive as people are making it out to be. They’ve got the Giants and (maybe 1st seed locked up) 49ers left so they have a good shot at the playoffs but I think their success is more a statement of how you can beat mediocre and bad teams with a franchise QB and elite WR rather than “you can rebuild even with dead cap”

put Stafford, Kupp and Nacua on any sub .500 team with a soft schedule and they probably have 7-8 wins

put another way - set aside the dead cap for a minute. How many teams have a top 7-8 QB and high end WR’s and are sub .500? The Chargers. Who else?

The Rams and Texans should both serve as examples that the QB/WR is how to be competitive in the NFL and papers over a ton of other issues. Nothing to do with cap hits and dead money and everything to do with having top guys at those positions. You can compete with a mediocre roster if you have a QB and 2 skilled playmakers.

Problem being, finding a franchise QB and dynamic receiving options isn’t easy.

 

[johnmd20]

People were just talking about how impressive their young picks are. Kupp has only played 63% of snaps and is well off his prime numbers, Donald is still great but not DPOY great, and they have still managed to rebuild the team (and Kupp and Donald can probably find another gear if they make any noise in the playoffs). Stafford is 35; he has more injuries in his history than I would like but I bet he can play at a high level for 2-3 more years.

They are just 8-7 but that is shocking given that they truly went all in to win it all and have a lot of dead money etc. Isn't it amazing that they are in a playoff position WITH 77 M in DEAD SPACE?!!

Obviously you can't just find a McVay but they have done a few things that BB has never been interested in doing:

• Go all-in for a year or two and take a year off from really trying to compete when the team makeup warrants it to re-set the cap etc
  • Bill could have done this in 2020 with COVID having no impact on fans in the seats but he cobbled together a ridiculous offense based on Cam Newton who was not the future QB for the team because Bill will never give up on a season even if it's his best chance to build a future contender. He's going to be forced to do it this year when the roster is worse and it could take much longer to dig out.
• Trade first round picks for obvious upgrades
  • They didn't have first rounders because they traded them to get quarterbacks. Those QBs got them to the super bowl and then got them the QB that won the super bowl. Seems fine to me.

The latter is easier when you can draft a Cooper Kupp in the 3rd round, so it all comes back to scouting but I don't have a problem at all with the team building philosophy over there. You can re-set a roster and cap in literally a year, there's no such thing as long-term cap hell. And no one cared that the Pats went 7-9 in 2020 instead of 3-13.

The Rams went all in and won the SB. They had a down year last year and heading into this year, the entire team was a bunch of no names and Kupp, Stafford, and Donald. The team was expected to be one of the worst in the NFL.

Then you look up and McVay has the team 8-7 with two truly incredible, dynamic rookies in Kyren and Puka. They compete every week. Hell, they almost beat the Ravens.

The Pats haven't had a dynamic offensive rookie who looked like either Kyren Or Puka in fucking years. This the problem. The process is stale. The voices are old. The coaches are either family or retreads. There is nothing unique or original. It's the same shit.

The process is rooted in 2006. It's 2023.

As I've been saying, people are in denial. This board has spent the last 5 years mocking McVay as the "overrated golden boy". It's easy to sit on a throne of judgement when your team makes the SB every year. But those days are over. Seems like the "golden boy" is doing a pretty good job.

 

[johnmd20]

BB traded a 1st round pick for Brandin Cooks. How is trading a 1st rounder not something he’s “never shown interest in doing”? They’ve also traded multiple 2nd round picks for upgrades (Dillon, Welker, Sanu)

The Rams have a ton of dead cap, but also have a generational talent at DT, a franchise QB and an MVP WR. They’ve drafted a few late round gems which is the only reason they’re (barely) above .500 and relevant this season.

What McVey has done is impressive, but in a league where QB/WR is critical, and you have both those positions locked up wins against Arizona x2, Cleveland with Flacco, early season Colts, Washington, New Orleans and Seattle x2 aren’t quite as impressive as people are making it out to be. They’ve got the Giants and (maybe 1st seed locked up) 49ers left so they have a good shot at the playoffs but I think their success is more a statement of how you can beat mediocre and bad teams with a franchise QB and elite WR rather than “you can rebuild even with dead cap”

put Stafford, Kupp and Nacua on any sub .500 team with a soft schedule and they probably have 7-8 wins

put another way - set aside the dead cap for a minute. How many teams have a top 7-8 QB and high end WR’s and are sub .500? The Chargers. Who else?

The Rams and Texans should both serve as examples that the QB/WR is how to be competitive in the NFL and papers over a ton of other issues. Nothing to do with cap hits and dead money and everything to do with having top guys at those positions. You can compete with a mediocre roster if you have a QB and 2 skilled playmakers.

Problem being, finding a franchise QB and dynamic receiving options isn’t easy.

Stafford is now a top 7 QB? Amazing. Top 7? Really?

And you say put Nacua on a team like it's nothing. The Rams defated Nacua. That is the POINT. The Pats draft Thorton and Boutte.

"Their wins are crappy." (they are wins) "They have top end talent on offense." (how did that talent get on the team, magic? McVay waved a wand?) "You can win any game against mediocre teams." (Patriots lost to the Giants, Titans, Colts, Commanders, CHARGERS, (a lost team) and Raiders, two of those teams used as an excuse as to why the Rams aren't that good)

The mental gymnastics people go through to diminish others is wild. All the while trusting the Belichick is still the mastermind he was, while he's the coach and the GM of the 2nd worst team in the league.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The Rams went all in and won the SB. They had a down year last year and heading into this year, the entire team was a bunch of no names and Kupp, Stafford, and Donald. The team was expected to be one of the worst in the NFL.

Then you look up and McVay has the team 8-7 with two truly incredible, dynamic rookies in Kyren and Puka. They compete every week. Hell, they almost beat the Ravens.

The Pats haven't had a dynamic offensive rookie who looked like either Kyren Or Puka in fucking years. This the problem. The process is stale. The voices are old. The coaches are either family or retreads. There is nothing unique or original. It's the same shit.

The process is rooted in 206. It's 2023.

As I've been saying, people are in denial. This board has spent the last 5 years mocking McVay as the "overrated golden boy". It's easy to sit on a throne of judgement when your team makes the SB every year. But those days are over. Seems like the "golden boy" is doing a pretty good job.

I mean... They also have a clear franchise QB. For all the flaws it has and they are are many, this offense would look a lot better with Stafford, he'd probably have made Douglas a star.

 

[johnmd20]

I mean... They also have a clear franchise QB. For all the flaws it has and they are are many, this offense would look a lot better with Stafford, he'd probably have made Douglas a star.

The Rams have like 20 undrafted rookies on their team.

They do have a QB who slings it. That is true. I don't recall Stafford winning that often in Detroit, despite having hall of fame Calvin Johnson to throw to. But maybe I'm forgetting all those years Detroit was not a laughingstock and was making the playoffs and winning playoff games.

 

[Harry Hooper]

What if the story that BB's contract extension was only for one more season (2024) is accurate?

Does that mean the master plan was to go forward with Mac as QB and BB overseeing a big re-tooling with all the cap space this offseason for one more campaign, ending with BB retiring and turning the keys over to Mayo? If yes, probably both BB and Kraft are re-considering the plan these days.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The Rams have like 20 undrafted rookies on their team.

They do have a QB who slings it. That is true. I don't recall Stafford winning that often in Detroit, despite having hall of fame Calvin Johnson to throw to. But maybe I'm forgetting all those years Detroit was not a laughingstock and was making the playoffs and winning playoff games.

He was a good QB on a bad team, but they point wasn't that Stafford carries them, but rather using the Rams as a comparison to the Patriots is pointless because teams with good QBs are operating in a different realm than teams without one. The Patriots defense is good, arguably really good... Their offense is bad, but also probably could have won 3-5 more games with a very good QB instead of bad ones.

 

[johnmd20]

He was a good QB on a bad team, but they point wasn't that Stafford carries them, but rather using the Rams as a comparison to the Patriots is pointless because teams with good QBs are operating in a different realm than teams without one. The Patriots defense is good, arguably really good... Their offense is bad, but also probably could have won 3-5 more games with a very good QB instead of bad ones.

No argument overall.

But I do think the Patriots' offensive problems are far more than just the QB. It's not just the apples that are poisoned. It's the entire orchard. The offense has been piss poor for a very long time now. It's not just the QB that stinks. There is nothing great.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

I get that fans would prefer “bad and interesting” over “bad and crushingly dull” but I don’t think there’s any reason to think for the short or medium term playing Cunningham would have been beneficial to the team. And frankly, I think if he had been showing up big in practice as an actual passer, he would have gotten more regular season snaps.

Were they giving him opportunities in practice?

 

[lexrageorge]

Could have picked up a FB off the street. Even though 32 teams didn’t like them at FB this person may have been able to play. You know what maybe 36 teams. Quite possible there were some CFL teams that weren’t keen on him either. The assumption that all of the teams think he can’t play because he wasn’t on a roster is so trash. There are only so many positions. I have no doubt there are a handful of people walking around right now who no team is currently interested in that can play NFL football. Just because they don’t have a job doesn’t make them terrible. Mac Jones has a job.




The facts. Kid looked good in limited play. Teammates thought so too. Who was calling Bill arrogant? This is a whole office failure. This is on the entire offensive coaching staff for thinking status quo would work.


It wasn’t until I heard teammates saying they were excited. If starting Malik meant 100% of Trent Brown every game does it change some perspectives? Maybe Parker stretches that extra inch? The team was reverse rallying around Jones.

Calling it a failure is laughable for obvious reasons.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Calling it a failure is laughable for obvious reasons.

I was talking about the offensive decision making

 

[Jungleland]

McVay is great. The Rams are fun (and good) in large part because they've really nailed their offensive picks. Completely reasonable example to shit on the current state of the Pats with and no disagreement that it's embarrassing the way many people on this board and throughout New England view any praise of someone else in the NFL as Patriots slander. I get that.

I don't get this part:

• "Go all-in for a year or two and take a year off from really trying to compete when the team makeup warrants it to re-set the cap etc
  • Bill could have done this in 2020 with COVID having no impact on fans in the seats but he cobbled together a ridiculous offense based on Cam Newton who was not the future QB for the team because Bill will never give up on a season even if it's his best chance to build a future contender. He's going to be forced to do it this year when the roster is worse and it could take much longer to dig out."

1) Every QB in that draft is a bust except Lawrence. Would they be better off today had they picked higher and gotten one of the tackles, WRs, or Parsons that were taken between Lance and Mac? Yes. But if we're going to do the tank and start the rebuild thing, almost certainly a QB is the pick when you're picking in the range where first round QBs are available in a draft with 4-5 first round QBs. Unfortunately, they all suck. Can you imagine this board if they had gone 3-13 in 2020 and we spent 2021 watching Wilson?!

2) Losing sucks. They're losing a lot now and barring a disastrous win this weekend should be granting the wishes of everyone (myself included) rooting for a high enough pick to truly start a rebuild with. Why do the Rams get credit for this, but when it happens here, it's an organizational failure?

(FWIW, Kyren Williams is in his second season, but similar to Travis Etienne missed essentially all of his rookie year with an early injury. I might argue that first and second season Rhamondre Stevenson looked as impactful as Williams does this year and had the stats to back it up. He's fallen off the cliff this year, but I'm not sure we should have seen that coming. I digress.)

I'm on team keep Bill here so I'm not unbiased, but we're at the point where anything - Patriots or rest of the NFL - can be twisted to be a point in favor of why the current situation is the worst ever or why Bill shouldn't go. Fun to argue about but no one's convincing anyone at this point.

 

[tims4wins]

McVay is great. The Rams are fun (and good) in large part because they've really nailed their offensive picks. Completely reasonable example to shit on the current state of the Pats with and no disagreement that it's embarrassing the way many people on this board and throughout New England view any praise of someone else in the NFL as Patriots slander. I get that.

I don't get this part:

• "Go all-in for a year or two and take a year off from really trying to compete when the team makeup warrants it to re-set the cap etc
  • Bill could have done this in 2020 with COVID having no impact on fans in the seats but he cobbled together a ridiculous offense based on Cam Newton who was not the future QB for the team because Bill will never give up on a season even if it's his best chance to build a future contender. He's going to be forced to do it this year when the roster is worse and it could take much longer to dig out."

1) Every QB in that draft is a bust except Lawrence. Would they be better off today had they picked higher and gotten one of the tackles, WRs, or Parsons that were taken between Lance and Mac? Yes. But if we're going to do the tank and start the rebuild thing, almost certainly a QB is the pick when you're picking in the range where first round QBs are available. Unfortunately, they all suck. Can you imagine this board if they had gone 3-13 in 2020 and we spent 2021 watching Wilson?!

2) Losing sucks. They're losing a lot now and barring a disastrous win this weekend should be granting the wishes of everyone (myself included) rooting for a high enough pick to truly start a rebuild with. Why do the Rams get credit for this, but when it happens here, it's an organizational failure?

I'm on team keep Bill here so I'm not unbiased, but we're at the point where anything - Patriots or rest of the NFL - can be twisted to be a point in favor of why the current situation is the worst ever or why Bill shouldn't go. Fun to argue about but no one's convincing anyone at this point.

All fair points but re: 2020, there are alternate universes where the Pats have a better pick and take a different QB and that guy has success in NE. In taking Mac, BB didn’t have his choice of QB. Maybe another QB would have sucked here too. Maybe Mac was BB’s first choice after Lawrence anyway. They were never going to be bad enough to earn the first pick anyway. But who knows what happens if they finish with a worse record.

Also important to point out that it’s not just the 15th pick vs the 7th pick or whatever in the first round. It’s all rounds. There is meaningful value there cumulatively.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Zolak on the radio today says everybody he talks to assumes Bill to be coaching in Dallas next season.

If Bill were to go to Dallas, I’d have to root for the Cowboys until he pried the wins record from Shula’s cold, dead hands.
Do it, Jerry (fire Big Mac).

 

[Harry Hooper]

If Bill were to go to Dallas, I’d have to root for the Cowboys until he pried the wins record from Shula’s cold, dead hands.
Do it, Jerry (fire Big Mac).

Again, maybe BB doesn't care a whit about Shula's record if the report that his Patriots contract was running out at the end of next season is accurate.

 

[Eastchop]

I keep reading that Bill would never give up GM responsibilities to stay on as coach

Can Bill possibly think his roster building is a strength at this point? Of course he sees much more than what we see. But assuming he isn’t totally senile I don’t see how he could possibly think the team wouldn’t be better served by bringing in help on the roster building front. I’m actually being serious- maybe this is a stupid question. Why do we think he would put up a stink over retaining GM power? And if he does- it’s over anyway and the Pats are done until he’s gone

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I keep reading that Bill would never give up GM responsibilities to stay on as coach

Can Bill possibly think his roster building is a strength at this point? Of course he sees much more than what we see. But assuming he isn’t totally senile I don’t see how he could possibly think the team wouldn’t be better served by bringing in help on the roster building front. I’m actually being serious- maybe this is a stupid question. Why do we think he would put up a stink over retaining GM power? And if he does- it’s over anyway and the Pats are done until he’s gone

nobody can really say for sure what BB is thinking of course, but I can’t see him - based on what we do know about him - wanting to finish his career reporting to someone else and not having full control of the operations.

And honestly I don’t know if BB the coach could even coach other GM’s acquisitions to his liking. His talent acquisition on defense remains good and his schemes and ability to gameplan well on D revolves around having “his” types of guys. I think you neuter a lot of what makes him a good coach if you force him to coach guys who he doesn’t see as good fits for what he needs.

There was also that comment he made about only wanting to coach guys he likes at this point in his career.

if the prevailing wisdom is that BB has forgotten how to build a good offensive roster - and let’s not act as if he didn’t assemble excellent receiving groups and OL over the years even with the lack of a Jefferson type WR most of the time - then there’s no reason to hire him at all. Pats fans also seem to think he can’t draft, can’t hire good offensive coaches, can’t identify offensive talent, doesn’t retain good players , prioritizes special teams too much, and on and on, why would any team want him? He’s basically a glorified defensive coordinator at that point. And his defenses only work well because he’s been adept at finding good players or finding mediocre players he knows he can coach into what he needs.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

If Bill were to go to Dallas, I’d have to root for the Cowboys until he pried the wins record from Shula’s cold, dead hands.
Do it, Jerry (fire Big Mac).

why would Jerry fire Will McClay or demote him though? Their roster is really good and if Bb the GM is as awful as people seem to think, I can’t imagine Jerry is eager to replace McClay with BB