The WNBA: Thread II

[BaseballJones]

Clark with a huge game last night, albeit in another losing effort. 30 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks. But also...only shot 7-16 (43.8%) from the floor and had 7 turnovers.

But she's starting to really put up some numbers. But they're a two-player team right now with her and Boston (17 points, 6 rebounds). It's not enough in the W.

On another note, the Sun keep rolling, destroying Taurasi and the Mercury last night 70-47 (!). Their big 3 of Bonner, Thomas, and Jones did most of the damage, though the bench chipped in with 18 points as well. The Sun are 6-0 for the first time in franchise history. They're not the best team in the league (I still think ultimately LV and NY are better) but they're always criminally underrated, year-in and year-out. Maybe I'm doing that right here by saying that I think LV and NY are better.

 

[OCST]

Notable improvement for Clark defensively, like you said 3 blocks, I saw one late in the game where she covered a lot of ground to get to the shot. Seems like she’s developing another gear in her perimeter D. More physical.

7 turnovers for the player who is on the ball for a bad offensive team isnt that bad. No one including Boston is giving her much to work with. Boston is playing better but still not imposing her will on the game.

 

[TheRooster]

Why is Boston so meh? Age? She's actually been terrible for long stetches. Also, does KatieLou have an excuse for being bad?

 

[BaseballJones]

An “excuse” for being bad? I mean, other than that the WNBA is way, way tougher than college and not everyone who was great in college is great in the pros?

 

[Auger34]

"excuse" may be the wrong word but I think you expect more from a top 4 pick.

Looking at the box scores, it appears that the Fever's problem is that Boston not only hasn't progressed since her rookie year, she's actually got worse. That's no bueno

 

[Senator Donut]

"excuse" may be the wrong word but I think you expect more from a top 4 pick.

Looking at the box scores, it appears that the Fever's problem is that Boston not only hasn't progressed since her rookie year, she's actually got worse. That's no bueno

The Fever are just one year removed from cutting a top-four pick after her rookie season.

I'd caution people about bringing an NBA perspective to the WNBA. There are only 12 teams. It's very hard to break through as a young player and even claim one of the 60 starting spots.

 

[Batman Likes The Sox]

I'm by no means a basketball expert but I am a fan of both leagues and actually think there are more similarities here than differences in terms of draft outcomes. Lottery picks in the NBA even in the top five can be total busts (imagine if instead of Jayson Tatum at #3 the Celtics had drafted Josh Jackson, who went #4 and is, with other problems as well, out of the NBA).

Indiana benefits tremendously in the long term from taking a lot of time to figure it out and keep getting those top draft picks. In 3 years or so they could dominate.

Also every time I post in here although it's already been said I'm going to keep saying HOW ABOUT YOUR UNDEFEATED CT SUN, FOLKS

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The difference between the Fever's schedule and the NBA playoff schedule is pretty hilarious.

 

[TheRooster]

An “excuse” for being bad? I mean, other than that the WNBA is way, way tougher than college and not everyone who was great in college is great in the pros?

I was wondering if she'd recently given birth or had a major injury.

 

[OCST]

The difference between the Fever's schedule and the NBA playoff schedule is pretty hilarious.

It’s ridiculous.

 

[riboflav]

The Fever who play multiple games more than anyone else are back at it again today at noon against a team who has played three fewer games... again. Are we sure the Fever aren't going to end up playing five more games in the season than everyone else? I get showcasing Clark but how is this helpful to the W when the team is young and exhausted and not playing well? They are overplaying their hand.

Also, good lord, enough with tipping off three or more games at the same time on the same day. Stagger them!

 

[BaseballJones]

The Sun won another close game last night. I was in Mohegan and the place was pretty full and very loud. It is, I have to say, a very different crowd than that attends UConn women’s BB games. Not sure why that is but it is.

Now 7-0 and finding new ways to win every night. Last night a great defensive stand at the end allowed them to survive missing like 7 free throws in the last two minutes that could have salted the game away easily, but didn’t.

My favorite player on the team, Bri Jones, continues to look better and better as she plays herself into shape following her injury that caused her to basically miss all last season.

Good times so far.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Clark’s Fever ahead of Chicago early in this key Commissioner’s Cup tournament matchup!

 

[riboflav]

The Fever also travel and play tomorrow. This is totally nuts.

 

[Remagellan]

The Fever also travel and play tomorrow. This is totally nuts.

They just said that because of their schedule, the Fever have not held a practice since the season began. (They've just been holding film sessions to allow the players to get some rest.) Maybe the league should have given a thought to doing a better job at setting up their new star for success, because that is not a recipe for such.

 

[kfoss99]

They just said that because of their schedule, the Fever have not held a practice since the season began. (They've just been holding film sessions to allow the players to get some rest.) Maybe the league should have given a thought to doing a better job at setting up their new star for success, because that is not a recipe for such.

Ratings and ticket sales have been great. I think the league and broadcasters would rate that as mission accomplished.

The league needs sustained engagement, though. Despite the losses, Clark still has highlight moments each game. That may be enough in the Tik Tock age.

I'm watching more of the WNBA than I ever have. It's good fundamental basketball.

Without a vertical game, star power and three-pointers can advance the league's popularity. Clark can't dunk, but she can make logo threes like Curry


Every old dude who said they hated the NBA in the 90s and 2000s because of 1-on-1 isolation play, should love the WNBA play.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Chicago should have missed that second free throw. Great in bounds play by Indy. Nice to see smart basketball by the home team in that building.

 

[Senator Donut]

Did Evans forget the score? She just let Indiana inbound to someone completely alone.

 

[Dan Murfman]

This is kind of not nice. Apparently calling her bitch as she’s doing. Just a common foul?

View: https://twitter.com/wnbarookiewatch/status/1796956710071910673?s=61&t=mLlSRkfq4VtgCm4CvSpAPg

 

[Dan Murfman]

Angel was cool with it.

View: https://twitter.com/burackbobby_/status/1796967957605626100?s=61&t=mLlSRkfq4VtgCm4CvSpAPg

 

[OCST]

Every old dude who said they hated the NBA in the 90s and 2000s because of 1-on-1 isolation play, should love the WNBA play.

ding ding ding ding

 

[OCST]

Angel was cool with it.

View: https://twitter.com/burackbobby_/status/1796967957605626100?s=61&t=mLlSRkfq4VtgCm4CvSpAPg

What was the call on this?

 

[riboflav]

Carter has a history. Coming out of the bubble it looked like she was gonna be a stud player but then she went sideways. Disappearing from the Dream and then getting suspended by them. Then they dumped her to LA where she was meh and then was out of the W last year and is now on her third team.

 

[lostjumper]

What was the call on this?

Common foul.

I'm actually impressed with the sheer stupidity of some of these WNBA players. I understand the resentment and jealousy of a rookie getting all of this attention, but Clark is bringing in more eyes and money to the league than the rest of the players combined. That means new luxuries like charter flights finally happening and likely salary increases as well. I've never watched a WNBA game before, but we've watched 3 this year. And in every game there have been cheap shots like this. And worse, it seems her teammates are also jealous because not one of them stands up for her. Meanwhile, Reese is jumping up and cheering the dirty play. Such a bad look.

Someone does this to Steph Curry and Draymond is kicking someone in the groin next time down the court. Let's hope the players wise up and don't end up regretting this.

 

[johnmd20]

Common foul.

I'm actually impressed with the sheer stupidity of some of these WNBA players. I understand the resentment and jealousy of a rookie getting all of this attention, but Clark is bringing in more eyes and money to the league than the rest of the players combined. That means new luxuries like charter flights finally happening and likely salary increases as well. I've never watched a WNBA game before, but we've watched 3 this year. And in every game there have been cheap shots like this. And worse, it seems her teammates are also jealous because not one of them stands up for her. Meanwhile, Reese is jumping up and cheering the dirty play. Such a bad look.

Someone does this to Steph Curry and Draymond is kicking someone in the groin next time down the court. Let's hope the players wise up and don't end up regretting this.

One thing I noticed in watching the game today is that Clark's teammates really don't seem to support her, as you said. It was crazy how little engagement they were giving her in dead time. She was talking to air.

It's a bad look for the league. And dumb. I watched the game today soley to see Reese versus Clark. And I am glad Indiana won because how Clark was treated is just garbage.

 

[Auger34]

Some random thoughts after seeing these replays:

I have no idea how that could just be a common foul. An incredibly bad look by Boston doing absolutely nothing there. She also was awful today, which is an unfortunate theme for her year.

I can’t stand Reese. A bad look for her but not surprising at all

 

[Remagellan]

One thing I noticed in watching the game today is that Clark's teammates really don't seem to support her, as you said. It was crazy how little engagement they were giving her in dead time. She was talking to air.

It's a bad look for the league. And dumb. I watched the game today soley to see Reese versus Clark. And I am glad Indiana won because how Clark was treated is just garbage.

Absolutely agree. I have no idea what the refs were thinking not ejecting her for that. Clark had an end of the quarter interview and just casually mentioned that it was not a basketball play, but it's just something she has to adjust to at this level. But it's major BS if the league doesn't step in and eject/fine/suspend players for actions like this.

 

[Auger34]

View: https://twitter.com/dhookstead/status/1796986593187659789?s=46&t=Yv-0viabFQl7Lk7DrSRbBA


also had this play by Reese on Clark

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Post game assessed technicals and fines might be in order

 

[kfoss99]

I'm okay with the Reese vs Clark feud if it's simply a pro wrestling feud. But, I'm too old and soft to wish these young people to have real animosity against each other. Especially, um to avoid V&N, for the reasons that animosity appears to exist.

Her own teammates not helping her up is a big concern. Did Clark speak out against the Union? Or not join it? If that's not the case, teammates have each other's back.

Attendance for today's game was 17,274. Average attendance for the team, in 2023, was 4,067. The Portland Sea Dogs for AA baseball probably draw about that.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. And, you know, maybe help it up when it gets knocked down.

 

[TrapperAB]

If the refs are gonna allow THAT, then the Fever need to find/draft someone to be the Marty McSorley to Clark's Gretzky.

 

[lostjumper]

If the refs are gonna allow THAT, then the Fever need to find/draft someone to be the Marty McSorley to Clark's Gretzky.

Does Charles Oakley have a daughter by any chance?

 

[reggiecleveland]

I think the envy of established WNBA people may cause the WNBA to squander the popularity brought by CC. The amount of contempt and thinly veiled racism directed at her from so much of the league, especially older players is staggering. It is like Rick Barry is in charge of protecting Larry and Magic. (Barry was still avery good player, and pretty good announcer but his resentment of the popularity of LArry and MAgic ate hime up) The coach analyst at half time said the Fever had focused too much on Caitlin Clarke on listed the players that had been overlooked. Not hard to piece together this came from Fever players. In transition, about the only time she will ever be open for a three, her teammates seem to ignore her or at the very least not look for her. This may be not understanding how to take advantage of her talent. When she is off the ball she is not going to get it.

Angel Reese clearly hates CC, but was the fact that Larry and Magic (at onbe time) hated each other held against them?

 

[BigSoxFan]

Is the Clark resentment isolated to a black WNBA players or is it everyone?

 

[ElUno20]

She hasnt even had time to really practice, gets blitzed every game and plays on a shitty team.

I cant wait til she gets her footing and starts killing the league. Get your cheap shots in now, haters.

 

[BigSoxFan]

She hasnt even had time to really practice, gets blitzed every game and plays on a shitty team.

I cant wait til she gets her footing and starts killing the league. Get your cheap shots in now, haters.

And that is coming off of a grueling NCAA season as well.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Is the Clark resentment isolated to a black WNBA players or is it everyone?

Taurasi isn't black and she's been flaying Clark for months.

 

[InstaFace]

Were PGA golfers like this when a super young Tiger Woods came in and took the circuit by storm? Obviously different levels of physicality in the sports, but still, were they this contemptuous at least?

 

[smokin joe wood]

Were PGA golfers like this when a super young Tiger Woods came in and took the circuit by storm? Obviously different levels of physicality in the sports, but still, were they this contemptuous at least?

The back-and-forth between WNBA media personalities/pundits and net new WNBA fans is really fascinating.

To me - the best and most-recent analogy is Victor Wembanyama. He was the most hyped prospect in at least two decades and I don't recall a single NBA old head being anything but supportive. Guys were saying how much they enjoyed watching him on TV early in the season. The treatment of Victor flies in the face of the argument re: Clark "what if this were the men?" which was trumpeted quite loudly by some of the WNBA media. (https://x.com/ApexJones22/status/1794300044532699369?t=BXFvqH17_PdgDkHIGy40Uw&s=01).

 

[ObstructedView]

Is there something I'm missing about Clark's demeanor or reputation that would trigger this type of treatment? Like is she regarded among other players as especially arrogant or dirty? I know there was the hand-wave-in-front-of-her face that Reese mocked after LSU beat Iowa last year, but as I recall Clark took that in stride and tipped her cap at the time. From what I've seen she seems to have a clean game (maybe too clean??) and to say "all the right things." As someone who's not super familiar with women's basketball I'm curious as to whether there's something more at play here than plain old sour grapes. What's happening right now really feels like some combination of bullying and hazing.

 

[Auger34]

Angel Reese clearly hates CC, but was the fact that Larry and Magic (at onbe time) hated each other held against them?

No but Reese just isn’t that level. She was the 8th pick in the draft.

 

[Justthetippett]

Is there something I'm missing about Clark's demeanor or reputation that would trigger this type of treatment? Like is she regarded among other players as especially arrogant or dirty? I know there was the hand-wave-in-front-of-her face that Reese mocked after LSU beat Iowa last year, but as I recall Clark took that in stride and tipped her cap at the time. From what I've seen she seems to have a clean game (maybe too clean??) and to say "all the right things." As someone who's not super familiar with women's basketball I'm curious as to whether there's something more at play here than plain old sour grapes. What's happening right now really feels like some combination of bullying and hazing.

It does feel like hazing, and some professional jealousy over what many might see as her overexposure. Didn't Pistol Pete get this in the NBA? Even his teammates famously wouldn't bother picking up some of his more creative passes. Not sure it's an ideal analogy, but CC will have to earn it and these first years may be tough. It's not a great look for the WNBA though. What they need are eyeballs and CC brings those, which increases revenue (and salaries) for everyone. Competitiveness is good but some of the nasty stuff out there now is not.

 

[BaseballJones]

This is going to sound terribly sexist and I apologize for that, but I’ve played lots of ball with men and with women and I’ve found over the years that women can be far nastier to each other than men tend to be towards other men on the court. They (women) tend to hold grudges for a lot longer and things just don’t tend to be forgotten. Now in what way Clark has slighted these other women, I have no idea. But I’m not surprised at any of this.

 

[reggiecleveland]

This is going to sound terribly sexist and I apologize for that, but I’ve played lots of ball with men and with women and I’ve found over the years that women can be far nastier to each other than men tend to be towards other men on the court. They (women) tend to hold grudges for a lot longer and things just don’t tend to be forgotten. Now in what way Clark has slighted these other women, I have no idea. But I’m not surprised at any of this.

Since you opened the door...
This is from a large number of successful coaches of women's teams, mostly female coaches. Teams of women have to like each other to play well. with few exceptions. Very few male teams actually like each other, some great teams even hate each other. On the other hand they feel it is impossible to get the unity in a male team you can get in female teams. From the female players coaches I know I tend to see grudges lasting longer against opponents, but I also see female coaching staffs that are devoted to each other in a way I have never seen in male groups. I still think some of it is sexism. My daughter was a very successful wrestler and very aggressive. I often saw, more from female opponents and female fans, resentment and negative reactions and comments about the type of things that are praised in male wrestlers, such as not smiling before a match, pinning an overmatched opponent instantly. My daughter quit wrestling in large part because there were a group of older athletes that resented a young wrestler getting attention from the coaches and a chance to be 1st string in her weight class. It was classic female bullying right out of Queen Bees and Wannbes, excluding her from social events and conversations, , spreading rumours, etc. My son plays college hoops and is maybe the most popular guy on the team, meaning he likes maybe half the guys on the team.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Is there something I'm missing about Clark's demeanor or reputation that would trigger this type of treatment? Like is she regarded among other players as especially arrogant or dirty? I know there was the hand-wave-in-front-of-her face that Reese mocked after LSU beat Iowa last year, but as I recall Clark took that in stride and tipped her cap at the time. From what I've seen she seems to have a clean game (maybe too clean??) and to say "all the right things." As someone who's not super familiar with women's basketball I'm curious as to whether there's something more at play here than plain old sour grapes. What's happening right now really feels like some combination of bullying and hazing.

Thank you for this post - I have the exact same questions. The negativity definitely feels extra - it would be interesting to understand if that's actually the case and what's causing it.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Some of the way this is being discussed in the press is disappointing. She’s not a pressed flower. She will dust herself off and play basketball, because she likely has more toughness in her little finger than most of those worrying about her. If it gets too much, there are refs there.

This is not to say that discussion of the hazing, and what sociological factors might be behind it, are not worthwhile discussion topics. Obviously they are. But that it is easy to slip into a way of discussing this that we would never do if it was Wemby or Bronny getting hazed.

 

[luckiestman]

I’m a little confused by how blatant this was. Cheap shots and name calling happen all the time in sports but there was not even a minor attempt to conceal this.

 

[Auger34]

I’m a little confused by how blatant this was. Cheap shots and name calling happen all the time in sports but there was not even a minor attempt to conceal this.

exactly. I literally have no idea how that was just a common foul. It’s absolutely ridiculous

 

[InstaFace]

Various reporting I've seen suggests that the incident was called a Flagrant 1 foul, not a common foul. e.g.

https://247sports.com/article/angel-reese-celebrates-flagrant-foul-against-caitlin-clark-during-fevers-win-over-sky-232402648/

But SI reports that it was called a common away-from-ball foul, before the inbound, so it was 1 shot and then the ball for them.

https://www.si.com/wnba/sky-chennedy-carter-committed-hard-off-ball-foul-on-caitlin-clark-and-fans-are-heated

No idea what to believe.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Various reporting I've seen suggests that the incident was called a Flagrant 1 foul, not a common foul. e.g.

https://247sports.com/article/angel-reese-celebrates-flagrant-foul-against-caitlin-clark-during-fevers-win-over-sky-232402648/

But SI reports that it was called a common away-from-ball foul, before the inbound, so it was 1 shot and then the ball for them.

https://www.si.com/wnba/sky-chennedy-carter-committed-hard-off-ball-foul-on-caitlin-clark-and-fans-are-heated

No idea what to believe.

Play by play shows only 1 free throw. F1 would be 2 I believe.