The summer chopping block: who do you want gone and why?

Which Celtics player(s) and/or coach do you want to see gone?

  • Joe Mazzulla

    Votes: 110 45.8%
  • Jaylen Brown

    Votes: 81 33.8%
  • Marcus Smart

    Votes: 100 41.7%
  • Malcolm Brogdon

    Votes: 26 10.8%
  • Grant Williams

    Votes: 84 35.0%
  • Derrick White

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Robert Williams

    Votes: 5 2.1%
  • Al Horford

    Votes: 26 10.8%
  • Jayson Tatum (anyone who picks this gets a timeout)

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • no one

    Votes: 49 20.4%

  • Total voters
    240

ZMart100

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I like PP, and imagine there are teams where he'd play a more consistent role, but defensively he really is a tough fit for Cs who like to switch and value length more than most. On a different team he's maybe a 20ish minute a game guy, and in the playoff rotation. On a bad team he might even be more minutes/production wise (but, more of a good stats/bad team type just becuase of his limtations). I just don't think the Celts are going to trust him and thus, they should try to get value for him while they can. Bums me out a bit as I see talent there, but I also acknowledge some real limitations---he's neither defensively versatile nor all that good a distributor.

I guess the most optimistic view would be "why can't he be a better-shooting Gabe Vincent" and my answer unfortunately is "two inches and some weight make a big difference"
I don't want PP to go, but I think he will ask out for the reasons you cited and the Cs will accommodate him. I don't expect much of a return.
 

Toe Nash

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Jaylen should be dealt for multiple pieces and I trust PBS to figure out who those are.

It seems like the Celtics found themselves with two very good offensive players who are pretty similar on offense. It's not a terrible idea to have a 1A and a 1B to lighten the load on both, but they don't play off each other well and Brown doesn't make his teammates significantly better. In the playoffs you're sinking or swimming with Tatum as we saw in Game 7 vs. Philly and then last night, so I don't think you get a lot of benefit from having both. Maybe 1 of 3 games Brown does great but that's not enough and in the others he's a huge problem.

This was OK 3-4 years ago as both were getting better each year and you'd think they would show greater cohesion by now. Brown improved a lot in his weak areas his first few years but he still just simply loses the ball too much and doesn't see teammates when he drives. I think the exact same team with a 3 and D guy replacing Brown would be better, even if he's 80% as talented. In crunch time halfcourt offense you're giving the ball to Tatum, and White and Smart and others can pick up the rest. if Tatum is hurt figure it out but you're not getting too far when he's hurt anyway (and fortunately he seems quite durable so far).

Brown just doesn't do anything that's irreplaceable or that they don't already have a better version of in Tatum. Make it Tatum's team for real.
 

Auger34

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I am shocked at the amount of people that are saying they want to build around TimeLord.

The guy is an amazing talent. I think we all love watching him play…but there is no way in hell a team should build around a guy that has proven, time and time again, that he just can’t stay healthy.

I understand the sentiment that he shouldn’t be traded because there’s just no way you get back equal value for him (everyone is aware of his availability concerns and medical history). That makes sense.

But to set up your team where one of the core principles is a guy that can’t stay on the court, seems like a really, really awful idea
 

mwonow

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I voted Other, ie., Bring them all back. More pain!
But if I had to pick one to replace, I would say Mazulla.
The challenge is not just to fire guys, but to replace them with better options. That's Brad's job. There is no one on that list who is such a poor player (or person, IMO) that I want them to go away. Watching this same group improve and make it to the top will be very sweet.
Clearly this teams needs a mental skills coach and someone who can get them to be more consistent with their intensity. They are all insanely good at their jobs already, but they have to somehow get over the mental challenges.
I'm here, except I voted CJM
 

brendan f

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All the people who want CJM out are overreacting, IMO. So if the team had won game 7 would you still want him out? What if they had gone on to win the finals? These were not impossible scenarios. He made mistakes, a good number of them, as do all coaches. He also clearly made better adjustments as each series went on. Was he too late in making some of those adjustments? Yes. Is he going to learn and grow from the mistakes he made? Yes. I think it's a ridiculous assumption to think he isn't willing to grow or listen to other people on his staff.

How about we give him some credit for helping to hold this team together during the Ime saga. It could have gone much much worse. The team had a good year, a year any fan should be proud of. It wasn't perfect and it didn't have the happiest of endings. Same will be true for every team except for one.
 

mcpickl

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I voted no one.

I think Grant will be gone because I think the Celtics will just save the bucks there, but I don't want him gone.

And man, Celtics fans are really going to miss Smart when he's gone. I guess that's the only way he'll ever really be appreciated here.
 

jablo1312

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I want every single guy listed back tbh, not emotionally attached to Mazulla but watching this group coalesce over the last 18 months has been a hell of a lot of fun. Obviously there's almost no way every single guy is back, but each of those names would have me react to the news of there departure somewhere between "damn, I liked that guy" (Brogdon) to "that really hurts" (White, Horford, Rob W). I know winning titles is also fun, I don't think this group is that far away from the competition at the top currently.
 

radsoxfan

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The biggest data point we don't really have is "what's Jaylen's value around the league on something approaching a Supermax contract".

I'm fine keeping the band mostly together, particularly if trading Jaylen isn't going to get any major prize in return. I definitely wouldn't trade him just to shake things up.

But I do think there is a decent chance the team's metrics only "like" (but don't love) Jaylen and internally they don't consider him an All-NBA 2nd team type player. If another team in the NBA is that high on Jaylen, exploring a trade would make sense. Unfortunately it would probably leak, Jaylen's feelings will get hurt, etc. So it's a bit tricky.
 

radsoxfan

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Aside from a potential Jaylen curveball, to me it feels like the team is mostly set +/- a fringe guy like Grant.

I don't see a lot of major changes aside from more experience on the coaching staff.
 

uncannymanny

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Joe - I’d just like a fresh voice. I think he’s probably not the best coach we could find in the world. Maybe someone who’s won something.

Smart - I hate the tone his leadership sets as much as I sometimes love it.

Brown - I wish I didn’t have to watch this guy kick the ball all over the place for another however many years. The stat sheet numbers are what they are, but bad fundamentals and shit that you can practice away is excruciating to watch and very difficult to forgive when it inevitably, and predictably, costs the team a huge game.
 

ALiveH

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Smart - at best, he's the 2nd (to D-White) and at worst, the 3rd best big PG (after Brogdon) on this team yet he gets the most minutes and will most likely not age gracefully but likely still has a couple good years left in the tank. His value, such as it is, could be reallocated shoring up a position where we're thin (big man allowing us to play 2-big to make our defense elite again). I am certain I'm right about this. I hear a lot of people say "he's more valuable to the Celtics than other teams" - I don't get it. How is he more valuable to us if he's eating minutes that could go to more productive players at the same position? He is a starter / decent role player on an elite team on a reasonable contract - that has to have some value to the right team in the league.

Mazulla - i voted for him but i could be talked into keeping him. My main issue is how he failed to recognize the above, how badly he misallocated Smart's minutes after D-White clearly passed him all year and Brogdon was probably as good or better.
 

Salem's Lot

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For everyone looking to trade Brown, how do you think that’s going to look to Tatum? Try selling that deal to him. It might make him suddenly want to play somewhere else. It’s hard enough to get elite NBA players to want to play here. The Celtics really aren’t in a position to start pissing them off.
 

j-man

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or u can buy 2k turn the cap off and do this
C R Williams III
PF Glannis
sf Tautm
SG Brown/lillard
PG luka

but in real life i wouild run it back i mean miami run only happhen every 10 years or so and who in the east can beat u other than yourseles

and with lebron older GS getting weaker unlees joker suppourt cast can stay healty for 2-3 years in a row unlees tatum/brown does not like each other u have 2 or 3 more shots at this
 

Cellar-Door

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For everyone looking to trade Brown, how do you think that’s going to look to Tatum? Try selling that deal to him. It might make him suddenly want to play somewhere else. It’s hard enough to get elite NBA players to want to play here. The Celtics really aren’t in a position to start pissing them off.
Who knows, we have no insight into how they really feel about each other. And I think how it looks to Tatum depends a great deal on why and for whom he's traded.
 

nighthob

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For everyone looking to trade Brown, how do you think that’s going to look to Tatum? Try selling that deal to him. It might make him suddenly want to play somewhere else. It’s hard enough to get elite NBA players to want to play here. The Celtics really aren’t in a position to start pissing them off.
Honestly the time to explore a Brown deal is next summer after his extension kicks in. And after Tatum has signed his making it a moot point.
 

benhogan

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For everyone looking to trade Brown, how do you think that’s going to look to Tatum? Try selling that deal to him. It might make him suddenly want to play somewhere else. It’s hard enough to get elite NBA players to want to play here. The Celtics really aren’t in a position to start pissing them off.
PBS will keep JT in the loop on any big decision, like they did when KD talks heated up last summer. If Brad liked Bridges/Claxton for Brown (& the Nets were interested) they'd get JT's thoughts on Mikal & Nic prior.

ALSO Tatum & his entourage are incredibly smart, they aren't turning down a Super MAX because the team wanted him to be the main Alpha (score more) & have a deeper roster around him. Plus JT is incredibly commercial, he literally will hock sugar water, cardboard subs, and salted snacks if the price is right.

Regardless, the odds are the C's sign Jaylen to a Super MAX, run it back next year with very few tweaks and kick the CAP can down the road.

Most of Brad's time this summer will be spent finding & hiring 3-4 new Asst Coaches
 

boca

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I want every single guy listed back tbh, not emotionally attached to Mazulla but watching this group coalesce over the last 18 months has been a hell of a lot of fun. Obviously there's almost no way every single guy is back, but each of those names would have me react to the news of there departure somewhere between "damn, I liked that guy" (Brogdon) to "that really hurts" (White, Horford, Rob W). I know winning titles is also fun, I don't think this group is that far away from the competition at the top currently.
I wouldn't describe it as fun that's for sure.

For me this has been one of the most frustrating Celtics teams to watch.

How long do we give this core together before we just accept that they're not going to win a championship?

I voted to move on from Joe (and still think we should if a more experienced better option is available) but he's the third coach for these guys and maybe it's time to admit it's a player issue and not a coaching one.
 

BigSoxFan

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I wouldn't describe it as fun that's for sure.

For me this has been one of the most frustrating Celtics teams to watch.

How long do we give this core together before we just accept that they're not going to win a championship?

I voted to move on from Joe (and still think we should if a more experienced better option is available) but he's the third coach for these guys and maybe it's time to admit it's a player issue and not a coaching one.
Problem is that you’re about to lock up one of the key “player issue” players for 5/295. Tatum is obviously not going anywhere so that basically leaves Smart. And the return for him wouldn’t be great. Thus, I feel like the play here is to find the best possible coach that the Celtics can hire. And that ain’t Joe Mazzulla. So, I think we’re aligned there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Mutual chopping block:

Ben Sullivan, bye-bye and good luck with your Udoka loyalty in Houston. While you're at it take all of Ime's second-row assistants with you.

Payton Pritchard, someone will take you for a Top-55 protected 2nd rounder (is that still a thing?) so you can get 17 mpg on a lottery team and a $3m AAV second contract.

Add Stephen Silas as Joe's top assistant and be sure he takes well-respected up and comer Mahmoud Abdelfettah from Houston with him. The players primarily interact with the assistant coaches and this is where the cultural change/improvement/accountability needs to begin.

The players contractual situations will play themselves out. Will Wyc sign that $290m for Jaylen? Will we commit longer term to Grant? The options to add to this rotation will be limited unless a trade/major shakeup occurs. I don't get all the Smart hate lately as he was crucial in our Miami series comeback and is soooo underappreciated for his matchup switchability where Derrick sometimes gets exposed. Brad knows best what's going on behind the scenes so benefit of doubt and all that.

Hot take trade: Smart to Lakers for Reaves SNT? Hey, if LeBron wants change I'd snap off that one on the same call. I'd imagine his market begins in that $20m range so numbers can work if he wants to remain on a winner.
 

boca

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Problem is that you’re about to lock up one of the key “player issue” players for 5/295. Tatum is obviously not going anywhere so that basically leaves Smart. And the return for him wouldn’t be great. Thus, I feel like the play here is to find the best possible coach that the Celtics can hire. And that ain’t Joe Mazzulla. So, I think we’re aligned there.
This upcoming contract for Jaylen scares the shit out of me.

It would be negligent of the front office to not make calls on what's out there for him this summer.
 

Jimbodandy

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I am shocked at the amount of people that are saying they want to build around TimeLord.

The guy is an amazing talent. I think we all love watching him play…but there is no way in hell a team should build around a guy that has proven, time and time again, that he just can’t stay healthy.

I understand the sentiment that he shouldn’t be traded because there’s just no way you get back equal value for him (everyone is aware of his availability concerns and medical history). That makes sense.

But to set up your team where one of the core principles is a guy that can’t stay on the court, seems like a really, really awful idea
Yeah.

I also do not get the people who just want Smart and Brown gone. Finding talent in this league is fucking hard.

Here's the five guys above and below Brown for turnover% this year: Batum, McCollum, Jamal Murray, Hield, Jalen Green, Jarrett Allen, Randle, Caleb Martin, Lebron, Franz Wagner. Some of those guys have high assist%, so not really good comps (CJ, Murray, Lebron). The other 7 are similar or lower assist percentage but turn the ball over at the same rate. I wonder if someone on the Sons of John Starks is talking about dumping Randle because he kicks the ball all over the court.

Here are the guys tied with Smart in D-DPM: Butler, Towns, Kessler, Hart, Lowry, Tucker, James Johnson (and a few low minutes guys). Good defensive company.

But yeah, let's treat it like a fantasy basketball team and throw some shit against the wall.
 

chilidawg

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Mutual chopping block:

Ben Sullivan, bye-bye and good luck with your Udoka loyalty in Houston. While you're at it take all of Ime's second-row assistants with you.

Payton Pritchard, someone will take you for a Top-55 protected 2nd rounder (is that still a thing?) so you can get 17 mpg on a lottery team and a $3m AAV second contract.

Add Stephen Silas as Joe's top assistant and be sure he takes well-respected up and comer Mahmoud Abdelfettah from Houston with him. The players primarily interact with the assistant coaches and this is where the cultural change/improvement/accountability needs to begin.

The players contractual situations will play themselves out. Will Wyc sign that $290m for Jaylen? Will we commit longer term to Grant? The options to add to this rotation will be limited unless a trade/major shakeup occurs. I don't get all the Smart hate lately as he was crucial in our Miami series comeback and is soooo underappreciated for his matchup switchability where Derrick sometimes gets exposed. Brad knows best what's going on behind the scenes so benefit of doubt and all that.

Hot take trade: Smart to Lakers for Reaves SNT? Hey, if LeBron wants change I'd snap off that one on the same call. I'd imagine his market begins in that $20m range so numbers can work if he wants to remain on a winner.
Thanks for weighing in, good insights.
 

TomRicardo

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Grant/Smart/Brown. I said run it back immediately after the game last night, but after sleeping on it I think it's time to split the core. As much as I love Smart, he's no longer a good fit for this team. He is already starting to age poorly, his defense slipped this year, and he will never be a great shooter or playmaker. It's time to hand the PG keys over to Derrick White. As far as JB goes, I am not comfortable super-maxing him. Great guy to have in the regular season who will put up points and win you games, but we've seen it two years in a row now that he is just not someone you can trust with the ball in his hands in the playoffs. He's most likely going to get the super-max anyway, but if Brad could find a deal for him I'd be on board with pulling that trigger.

Nurse is the only guy I'd have wanted if Joe got canned, so now that he's off the board I'm ok with giving Joe another year with a more experienced staff.
You might as well add Tatum there. If all three go, it is really hard to see how they build a team that can win a playoff series in the next five years. Maybe if you get Dame for Smart and Brown you can sneak out a First Round win against the Knicks or Cavs but you are going to need Grant for size and bench depth. Derrick White is not a PG. We saw that in Game 7. While he was able to score points he did not have the court vision to get others the ball.
 

RSN Diaspora

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Nurse is the only guy I'd have wanted if Joe got canned, so now that he's off the board I'm ok with giving Joe another year with a more experienced staff.
Am I the only one who would consider Mike Budenholzer as a solid replacement option? I agree with the general premise that firing CJM without a clear idea of who would replace him is bad for the team, but I could see MB as head coach.
 

Auger34

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Who knows, we have no insight into how they really feel about each other. And I think how it looks to Tatum depends a great deal on why and for whom he's traded.
I think we have more than a pretty good idea that they both like each other and want to win together.

Any feelings on the trade would depend on the return but I think it’s fairly obvious that they like each other
 

TomRicardo

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Am I the only one who would consider Mike Budenholzer as a solid replacement option? I agree with the general premise that firing CJM without a clear idea of who would replace him is bad for the team, but I could see MB as head coach.
Yes. He had the similar issues as Mazzulla but was able to pull of the Championship one year (his Big 3 was better than the current Celtics Big 3 at the time).
 

Leon Trotsky

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I don't get all the Smart hate lately as he was crucial in our Miami series comeback and is soooo underappreciated for his matchup switchability where Derrick sometimes gets exposed. Brad knows best what's going on behind the scenes so benefit of doubt and all that.

Hot take trade: Smart to Lakers for Reaves SNT? Hey, if LeBron wants change I'd snap off that one on the same call. I'd imagine his market begins in that $20m range so numbers can work if he wants to remain on a winner.
This post is good info. I agree, having Marcus is really helpful to the overall scheme it seems. Having all three of Smart, Brogdan, and Derrick allows them to change up as needed and play to all three of their strength. I don't think they want to go away from that.

Is Reeves legit and not smoke and mirrors? I mean, I watched him lately and he looks really good, but just seems hard to believe (like Caleb Martin). Does his D hold up?
 

HomeRunBaker

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This post is good info. I agree, having Marcus is really helpful to the overall scheme it seems. Having all three of Smart, Brogdan, and Derrick allows them to change up as needed and play to all three of their strength. I don't think they want to go away from that.

Is Reeves legit and not smoke and mirrors? I mean, I watched him lately and he looks really good, but just seems hard to believe (like Caleb Martin). Does his D hold up?
100% certain that Reaves is legit on both ends of the floor. He was a part of the best defensive team in the league since the deadline and that came while sharing the backcourt w Russell. Passes eye test w flying colors on that end too....excellent positional defender, alert and instinctual as a help defender, with decent size.

I've been preaching for months that he is much closer to being part of the Lakers Big-3 than he is to being a role player in the Russell, Vanderbilt, Walker, Schroder grouping. The Lakers, I believe, can only offer him up to $10m or so but can match anything out there. Doubt they would move on but LeBron has already made his feelings known he wants more talent or the talent that he wants. I think he loves Reaves but again none of us knows what goes on behind the scenes.
 
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jose melendez

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Okay I've had time to think about it, and I've decided I want to run it back.

Three trips to the conference finals and one to the finals in four years is really, really good, and you don't mess with that when you still have a young core.

Maybe fire CJM, but I'm not sure. If Brad thinks he's the guy and he's growing, I trust him. Plays after TOs weren't great, and I wonder about how they handled the zone. However, I don't blame the late game lapses on CJM at all--this has been a problem for this core with three different coaches--it's not the coaching, the team just needs to keep growing up.

Jaylen is going to cost too much, kind of, but he's the sort of player that is going to get this kind of deal. Unless you can deal him for someone as good--not two guys half as good, don't deal him.
 

NomarsFool

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Not a bad primer. They are saying league-wide Grant's price is $12-14MM which is much better than last summer's rumors

https://hoopshype.com/lists/celtics-offseason-primer-jaylen-browns-future-grant-williams-more/
They make it seem like Gallinari is a Celtics choice. It's a player option, which certainly seems like he would take. Could be wrong, though - maybe someone is willing to go more than that for him, but sure seems like a gamble.

I think if I'm the Celtics, I let Grant Williams walk and see if I can get by in the regular season with Kornet et al. Staying under the tax next season seems quite important.
 

benhogan

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They make it seem like Gallinari is a Celtics choice. It's a player option, which certainly seems like he would take. Could be wrong, though - maybe someone is willing to go more than that for him, but sure seems like a gamble.

I think if I'm the Celtics, I let Grant Williams walk and see if I can get by in the regular season with Kornet et al. Staying under the tax next season seems quite important.
Ha, I just wrote in the Gallinari thread that Hauser, DG, and Muscala make Grant expendable (unless he comes back at 4 x 50)
 

Jimbodandy

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Hauser & Muscala + any warm body makes Grant expendable.

Grant's Platinum Doordash card got worked since last season
Bad timing for Grant. He's got a good year/bad year thing going like Josh Beckett. Funny thing is that he was having a good year, but the wheels fell off literally.

I love what he brings when he's on, but you can't overpay for those guys. Especially now.
 

benhogan

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Bad timing for Grant. He's got a good year/bad year thing going like Josh Beckett. Funny thing is that he was having a good year, but the wheels fell off literally.

I love what he brings when he's on, but you can't overpay for those guys. Especially now.
The "it's just Wyc's money" & "all NBA contracts are tradeable" memes will slowly fade away.

Grant did a cliff dive this year (or did CJM shove him off that cliff?)

Regardless, the Celtics are still in a great position for the next half-decade
 

Auger34

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How much do you think Grant gets in a contract now? $13M? Maybe less? His last 3 games he was really, really fucking bad.

I have an image of him seeing a pick from Bam coming…and running directly into it while Gabe Vincent drains a 3 pointer without a hand in his face