The sixers and building a winner

[HomeRunBaker]

In respect to "getting used to losing" it is the collateral damage that occurs from constant negativity (losing games, not being competitive, etc) that impacts a young players growth as it becomes increasingly difficult to stay motivated to improve and even more so when your PG can't get the ball over half court to initiate the offense.

It isn't hard to envision young players counting down the days to the end of their rookie deal to get the dodge out of town under these current circumstances. Of course we're only really talking about 2-3 players with any value anyway at this point in time however you need one to want to stay to build with.

 

[nighthob]

Oh god this again. You get used to losing and can never get out of it. Is there any evidence of this? I'm open to it. (And I was wrong about veterans apparently though I was never against one or two, esp at pg. having no one to run the distribution etc. )

You're leaping at strawmen here. My specific criticism was that the Sixers, like the Clippers of yore, stripped the roster of useful vets and went entirely with a kiddie zoo. So your points of comparison would be the That's So JaVale era Wizards or the classic Clippers teams of last decade.

Obvious counter examples are the thunder or until the injury ridden Pelicans season this year you'd say them with Davis.

In fact these aren't the counter-examples. The Thunder rosters did lose, because their kids were, like most players, works in progress. Which is why the Thunder kept around useful vets like Donyell Marshall and Kurt Thomas to help transition the kids into the game. The Thunder are actually a counter-example to the Hinkie plan, because you can keep vets on the roster without winning 40 games and drafting in the mid first.

 

[LondonSox]

You get your players used to losing and playing for a way out rather than to win. The Clippers pursued that program for a generation and only escaped it by accident.

So the thunder who won 20 ish games for two years and around 30 the two years before that were what isolated from this used to losing thing due to a couple of veterans?

Because I don't get why. I get why veterans might help kids learn, and learn about the time away from the court and etc. I can see how they keep them more competitive and prevent a absolute shit show. I don't see how they prevent losing hurting. Plus the sizes have always had a veteran. This year it's Landry, though he was hurt. They are actively changing plan on this. But I'm confused why winning 20 games with two veterans is particularly different from 18 and 19 with only one veteran that the sixers did.

This is just like the thunder. Two around 30 loss seasons and then two around 20 the difference is they got their superstar and moved on where Philly not so much.

I'm open to veterans being helpful in many ways but preventing getting into a losers mentality is unprovable. They had the likes of Jason Richardson last year etc. The counter examples are of like two veterans. Which until this season they had.

 

[Devizier]

The obvious analogy for the current edition Sixers is the Chandler/Curry era Bulls.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So the thunder who won 20 ish games for two years and around 30 the two years before that were what isolated from this used to losing thing due to a couple of veterans?

Because I don't get why. I get why veterans might help kids learn, and learn about the time away from the court and etc. I can see how they keep them more competitive and prevent a absolute shit show. I don't see how they prevent losing hurting. Plus the sizes have always had a veteran. This year it's Landry, though he was hurt. They are actively changing plan on this. But I'm confused why winning 20 games with two veterans is particularly different from 18 and 19 with only one veteran that the sixers did.

This is just like the thunder. Two around 30 loss seasons and then two around 20 the difference is they got their superstar and moved on where Philly not so much.

I'm open to veterans being helpful in many ways but preventing getting into a losers mentality is unprovable. They had the likes of Jason Richardson last year etc. The counter examples are of like two veterans. Which until this season they had.

It's not that difficult to understand. There's a really simple question that can help you to understand whether you have the veteran leadership necessary to develop your young players: is Sam Hinkie your GM?

If Sam Hinkie is your GM, you're the Donald Sterling era Clippers and your vets aren't positive role models and basketball is ruined.

If he's not your GM, Kurt Thomas is responsible for the development of positive habits in Durant, Westbrook, and Harden.

In my view, the "process" hasn't yet worked because the Sixers don't have the right talent and didn't have the assets on hand that a Minnesota did that allowed them to re-tool so quickly.

And so, people are looking for reasons why the rebuild's in such bad shape, and are placing outsized emphasis on things like "veteran presence" because missing out on Wiggins and Towns is too obvious. If the Sixers had landed Towns, they have their guy to build around, they start spending strategically and figuring out what their team looks like and how to put the pieces around Towns to maximize his value on the court. They didn't though, so now they're trying to figure out what they have in Okafor and Noel. And that takes time, and is ugly, regardless of how many Shane Battiers they're sitting next to on the plane. Would a Battier help Okafor? Probably. But that still doesn't magically turn Okafor into the franchise player they need him to be, and it's not moving the needle on way or the other on the merits of Sam Hinkie or the process.

 

[LondonSox]

If Sam Hinkie is your GM, you're the Donald Sterling era Clippers and your vets aren't positive role models and basketball is ruined.

Right and there is it. This is a ridiculous ridiculous comment and now I will move on.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Right and there is it. This is a ridiculous ridiculous comment and now I will move on.

Might want to get your sarcasm meter checked.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

So the thunder who won 20 ish games for two years and around 30 the two years before that were what isolated from this used to losing thing due to a couple of veterans?

Because I don't get why. I get why veterans might help kids learn, and learn about the time away from the court and etc. I can see how they keep them more competitive and prevent a absolute shit show. I don't see how they prevent losing hurting. Plus the sizes have always had a veteran. This year it's Landry, though he was hurt. They are actively changing plan on this. But I'm confused why winning 20 games with two veterans is particularly different from 18 and 19 with only one veteran that the sixers did.

This is just like the thunder. Two around 30 loss seasons and then two around 20 the difference is they got their superstar and moved on where Philly not so much.

I'm open to veterans being helpful in many ways but preventing getting into a losers mentality is unprovable. They had the likes of Jason Richardson last year etc. The counter examples are of like two veterans. Which until this season they had.

OKC (or Seattle) were loaded with NBA players and a competent system as those players at least understood the NBA game and how to execute sets both offensively and defensively. They didn't have their 4 through 15 being undrafted FA off the scrap heap with zero NBA experience leading the Okafors and Noel's. They had Collison already establishing himself, Malik Rose in his 12th year, Kurt Thomas, 9 year vet Earl Watson at the 1 with Chucky Atkins behind him, Desmond Mason, and Joe Smith.

We aren't talking about Carl Landry coming in and teaching a dozen kids how to play the game.....it was a culture of veterans in OKC who already knew while allowed Durant and the others to enter a non-dysfunctional system both on and off the court.

Players learn the game of basketball and the game of life from their teammates on and off the court. They are with these guys on road trips, in conditioning drills, in pre-practice, post game meals, and hanging outside of basketball. They are with the coaches for a couple hours a day. A coach cannot simulate plays on a basketball court of your teammates their movements and the subtle intricacies they pick up from their teammates. It's like a kid in grammar school......the parents can be the best parents in the world but the kids are going to learn mostly from the kids that they associate with all day. The REAL problem is that the Sixers not only don't have the teammates.....they don't have the kids with potential to learn with only a couple exceptions.

 

[LondonSox]

What do you know a mildly decent point guard and huge improvement. Noel looks like a different player.
I know it was Vs the kings but when Noel plays like last night he looks real, roll to the rim, great d.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

What a difference Ish Smith makes to these Sixers they look like night and day from last week. He dropped a 18/9/3 line and now they can start their offense from 25 feet out rather than 40 with a real PG. Guys got the ball in rhythm and in position to score.....Nerlens being the greatest beneficiary with a 20-point night. Two games.....one close loss and a win. These guys now at least have a chance to develop as NBA players with one on the floor who understands how this thing works. That was step one. Imagine thinking at the beginning of the season that Colangelo and D'Antoni would make an impact.....on the Sixers!

 

[Remagellan]

They're back to being watchable! Trust the re-process!

 

[LondonSox]

It shows just how huge an error coming into the season with two injured, and only one of them half decent, point guard. Hinkie claims they thought Marshall would be ready to start the season. I'm dubious. No one else I know thought that at all.

Ish is nothing special and could have been had for a minimum short contract and instead two seconds. Look as stop losses go not bad. And that horror start might help the tank and allow them to a the rest of the season I guess. But Noel is a different guy at center with a point guard. When he plays like that I'd trade Okafor. Saric and 4 and Noel with guys like cross and Holmes as nice bench options for small 4 and 5 respectively. That's doable.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Fun with on/offs.
With Okafor off the court the Sixers are a disappointing -2.5 net efficiency rating.
With Okafor on the court: -19.2.

 

[LondonSox]

Apparently ish Smith is a steal for 2 seconds. He'll be flipped for a first in no time!

Elton brand is back for "veteran" stuff at the cost of cross. Which is a shame as I think cross is not nothing and is brand really going to actually PLAY?

But the sixers front court can afford the loss, he's a lottery ticket that probably should be on the d league anyway.

Landry playing great recently so esp with brand here I could see him being flipped at the deadline for a second.

Suns join the tank party and the sixers win 3/6 save the children

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Apparently ish Smith is a steal for 2 seconds. He'll be flipped for a first in no time!

Elton brand is back for "veteran" stuff at the cost of cross. Which is a shame as I think cross is not nothing and is brand really going to actually PLAY?

But the sixers front court can afford the loss, he's a lottery ticket that probably should be on the d league anyway.

Landry playing great recently so esp with brand here I could see him being flipped at the deadline for a second.

Suns join the tank party and the sixers win 3/6 save the children

I'm pretty sure the days of flipping guys for 2nd round picks are over in Philly. Colangelo wasn't brought in to continue the same path that Hinkie paved. I'm wondering how many are going to be moved at the deadline for some able bodied players.

Ish wouldn't ever muster a 1st rounder this winter as a rental he is more valuable to this team than any other in the league at this point for the stability he's giving them.

 

[LondonSox]

Ish was a joke.

Landry I totally see as plausible to be flipped. They have a crowded front line, Holmes deserves more minutes, they added brand who I assume will want some minutes. He's no part of the future, you can trade him and add another vet. Or some other team salary dump could send a similar vet.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Ish was a joke.

Landry I totally see as plausible to be flipped. They have a crowded front line, Holmes deserves more minutes, they added brand who I assume will want some minutes. He's no part of the future, you can trade him and add another vet. Or some other team salary dump could send a similar vet.

Finance guys have a sense of humor....who knew?!?!?!

 

[LondonSox]

So Elton brand is back at the minor cost of cross, who passed waivers and should be on the d league 87ers

But now they are talking to Shane battier now, I'm down with veteran presence, but how many exactly? I mean can't brand be a coach? Is he going play? At the expense of Okafor, Noel Holmes? Fine regardless it's not likely to be a huge issue. Killing roster and reducing minutes for retired players seems like the tanking way of doing this veteran presence thing....

 

[HomeRunBaker]

So Elton brand is back at the minor cost of cross, who passed waivers and should be on the d league 87ers

But now they are talking to Shane battier now, I'm down with veteran presence, but how many exactly? I mean can't brand be a coach? Is he going play? At the expense of Okafor, Noel Holmes? Fine regardless it's not likely to be a huge issue. Killing roster and reducing minutes for retired players seems like the tanking way of doing this veteran presence thing....

There is an enormous difference between being a player with the guys and being a coach. The coaches spend their non-court time in meetings or doing their own thing while the players are in the locker room together, training room together, devouring the spread together, and bonding/learning together. A coach can tell a player some of the intricacies of the game but a player is out there showing them how it is done against them or against another player. Players learn from their teammates on and off the court much more than from their coaches.

As far as minutes those guys are playing 82 games of regular rotations. I doubt Brand would get more than some token run anyway not enough to curb any growth that's almost certain. If Holmes doesn't show enough to earn minutes over Elton that isn't the movements fault it is Richaun's.

The culture needed to be changed and it can't be done overnight by simply acquiring talent. Moving guys who can't cut it for older veterans who can help those with some upside is the short term way to go. Add a couple more, you've got 15 roster spots and last I saw TJ, Kendall, and Stauskas were still some of them.

 

[LondonSox]

Marshall coming off injury I think deserves some time, TJ I'd lose for a veteran point guard any day. Stauskas I'd think you'd be slower to give up on, he hasn't lost the ability to shoot I'd imagine despite recent evidence to the contrary.
Thompson and jakarr I'd not care about either. So fair point there are at least a few spots.

I guess this is an interesting way to go for veterans without paying a lot nor losing a LOT of minutes for the development players. Rather than playing vets who want minutes for their career advancement, I always was nervous a good vet would potentially be passed at losing and be a negative and demand more time etc. This is unlikely with retired players, they can teach and mentor but know exactly what they are getting into.

 

[LondonSox]

Huge improvement recently. Up by 25 Vs the Bulls before losing in ot to Jimmy butlers 50+ really hurt missing grant on the defensive end.

They blowing out the trailblazers, I guess them using trust the process term pissed off some sixers. Most impressive was Okafor who had 14 points on 7/7 shooting after half the first quarter and had an excellent game. Covington who has been awful is suddenly playing better again and the team looks bad as opposed to God awful

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Once Smith got there, everyone focused on Noel because he had the 2 big games, but Okafor has been great since.

 

[LondonSox]

Much more efficient for sure. Worst counting stats but much better efficiency. Which fits with the idea he was having to do too much alone and better point guard play would help him.

He was flat out dominant in the first quarter last night. No answers. Very interesting, he's really been shooting mid range more too, well.

 

[LondonSox]

Fun double ot loss to Knicks today. Okafor solid again but the sixers are trying to avoid the Noel and Okafor together lineup and defense really drove the 4q comeback.

Okafor zero minutes 4th or either ot. One of them is really likely to go.

 

[LondonSox]

Oh I forgot to mention Okafor is now shooting 57% on mid range shots since Christmas. Which is interesting and a surprise to pre draft chat for sure. Between that and his ft percentage people may well have given up on his shooting preeeeeettttyy early. If he can shoot and post and play any kind of d, a lot more interesting (he even had a couple blocks today)

 

[jon abbey]

That was indeed a fun game, although Philly was helped by Melo not really being healthy (I have never seen him nearly as tired as he was down the stretch of this one) and Porzingis leaving with a mild injury early in the 4th.

Okafor didn't play late because he was giving up baskets to freaking Robin Lopez almost as fast as he was scoring his own, but I was still surprised Brown didn't give him minutes in the OTs when everyone was clearly exhausted.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Did Ish really get up 28 FGA and miss 20 of them? He's their everything on the perimeter which is obviously one of the teams many problems.

 

[jon abbey]

Actually Covington, Canaan and Thompson each hit three 3-pointers today. Ish has the ball constantly when he's in, and it's not hard to get past Calderon to get the offense going. He did have a career high 16 assists but probably should have given it up even more.

I'm not really sold on Brett Brown, even with how obviously inexperienced most of their guys are. I think they could maybe use someone with much more NBA head coaching experience (not D'Antoni) but they just committed to Brown long-term.

 

[LondonSox]

I think brown is a great coach/ teacher but I agree not sold on him a game coach, adjustments lineups crunch time etc

Separately super interesting story coming out saying that ownership pushed Hinkie to draft Okafor over porzingis. This is interesting to me as first it shows why MAYBE a guy with an excellent draft history who spent more time looking at porzingis than anyone else passed on him. It never helps when ownership overrules the basketball guys.

www.phillyvoice.com/reports-sixers-ownership-pressured-sam-hinkie-take-jahlil-okafor-over-kristaps-porzingis/

 

[Cesar Crespo]

That's looking awful right now but we'll see how it plays out. Porzingas is now day to day with a sore foot. I hate seeing anything related with feet when it comes to guys 7'3.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

That's looking awful right now but we'll see how it plays out. Porzingas is now day to day with a sore foot. I hate seeing anything related with feet when it comes to guys 7'3.

This is what I've been afraid of. The history of foot problems for players 7-1 and up is a long one. We'll see what happens to Durant as well.

 

[nighthob]

This is what I've been afraid of. The history of foot problems for players 7-1 and up is a long one. We'll see what happens to Durant as well.

You mean with Durant's basketball related Jones fracture? We always knew that he had a...

 

[LondonSox]

Was reading some trade proposals on Okafor from other teams recently, and the blazers guys noted that Okafor's defence seem to be better than people think.
His rim protection is actually excellent (and most advanced stats I find agree eg http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/ where he grades better than Noel and up there with Mark Gasol and Porzingis. The range of these stats is large but all seem to agree his rim protection is pretty solid. As a rookie and his lack of explosiveness that's interesting.
He's also really good defending the post. So really it's the modern game switching, pick and rolls and having to defend outside the paint. That is something basically all rookies struggle with, let a lone young big men. He's never going to be able to switch out to the perimeter, but I see signs of hope here.

His shooting recently has been great, and super efficient, he's catching at the elbow and passing well, and his face up game is good, he's shooting well, which means people have to respect it and he's been able to drive too.

That said Noel without okafor has been playing GREAT at the 5.

The big knocks on Okafor were shooting and D. Shooting is already changing opinions and he might actually be already solid in the paint defensively. Hmmm. Decisions.

 

[bowiac]

I think you've misread that rim protection stat. Okafor's points saved is below average there.

 

[LondonSox]

4.5 points/ 36 saved no? I guess I am looking at the wrong column?

Well that website aside here's the link that I found that got me looking at his numbers again
http://hoop76.com/quick-chat-jahlil-okafors-defense/

So how do Jah’s numbers stack up against the rest of the Association?

Better than you’d expect, actually! He’s allowing opponents to convert just 47.5 percent of shots against him at the rim, which doesn’t exactly sound all that good until you realize that number either tops or is on par with alleged defensive studs such as Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, Clint Capela, and — weird — Nerlens Noel. That may be in part because Okafor has held his own down low. Nobody has defended a higher volume of attempts in the postthan Jah this season, who has allowed 48.4 percent shooting on such looks — an honorable number for any rookie who could be easily taken advantage of by savvy veteran footwork and pump fakes.

Okafor may not have the vertical lift of a Hassan Whiteside or Andre Drummond, but he uses his combination of a stocky build and 7-5 wingspan to shut down the paint. Jahlil is already a prodigy when it comes to the ever-so-glamorous art of bodying post behemoths and keeping those hands up:

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

4.5 points/ 36 saved no? I guess I am looking at the wrong column?

Well that website aside here's the link that I found that got me looking at his numbers again
http://hoop76.com/quick-chat-jahlil-okafors-defense/

Think you want to look at the position adjustment column rather than raw numbers, which would put Okafor at -0.3/36 minutes. Don't know how the website calculates that adjustment factor though.

 

[LondonSox]

So the only move at the deadline was so Hinkie it's funny. Take Joel Anthony off the Rockets for a second, get to the spending floor and pick up a 2nd in the process.

Loved a hot (blisteringly) take saying the sixers should get an F as a trade grade because the author is sick of this shit. It's a free 2nd round pick. Who wouldn't want that?

 

[moly99]

OKC (or Seattle) were loaded with NBA players and a competent system as those players at least understood the NBA game and how to execute sets both offensively and defensively.

Just to follow up on this, Presti did a good job of keeping some vets like Nick Collison who could provide leadership and fill the role of solid role players when the team eventually turned things around.

Because I don't get why. I get why veterans might help kids learn, and learn about the time away from the court and etc. I can see how they keep them more competitive and prevent a absolute shit show. I don't see how they prevent losing hurting.

The issue is with minutes and roles. The Sonics let Durant chuck as many shots as he wanted because that was the role he was going to fill when he became a star. The danger with a team full of young guys is that they will stray from the roles the team wants them to fill.

For the Sixers to be a success (at least with the current young guys), they need Okafor and Noel to develop into complementary players. So they need Okafor to buy into a defensive role; either he needs to protect the rim while Noel takes stretch fours or vice versa. And veterans can help force Okafor to accept that defensive role. Either by benching him for a vet if he doesn't hustle on defense, or by showing him how other guys are able to complement Noel if he is willing to learn.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Just walked past Hinkie in midtown Manhattan. Resisted the urge to say something snarky but kind of regretting it now.

 

[ypioca]

Well, he's gone now.


Marc Stein: ESPN sources say Sam Hinkie has stepped down from his posts in Philadelphial

What a waste of time.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Saw that coming a mile away...

 

[BigSoxFan]

Bryan Colangelo new GM. Nepotism!

 

[soxfan121]

Twitter has been spectacular this evening. Two personal highlights:

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Does this guy ever get another important job in the league?

Any idiot can lose on purpose and take on contracts for draft picks.

 

[Smokey Joe]

He did a really good job at losing on purpose and taking on contracts for draft picks.
Alas, taking on contracts for draft picks is not going to be a sought after skill over the next few years. After then, who knows?

 

[theXman]

Per ESPN, below is a link to the 13 page resignation letter Hinkie wrote to the 76ers board. Some references to Belichick and Bill James, among others. Still reading through it, but interesting to a geek like me (and I'd imagine some of you).

http://espn.go.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf

 

[RG33]

Per ESPN, below is a link to the 13 page resignation letter Hinkie wrote to the 76ers board. Some references to Belichick and Bill James, among others. Still reading through it, but interesting to a geek like me (and I'd imagine some of you).

http://espn.go.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf

Wow. This dude needs to get over himself. The Sixers clearly have.

 

[gingerbreadmann]

I dunno, that's sort of an easy characterization to make. This is a fascinating document. I've been combing through the Sixers blog Liberty Ballers, and the reaction over there is a lot closer to "Sonics fans when the team moved to OKC" than "Red Sox fans when Bobby Valentine was fired." Utter despair, and almost universal respect, if not reverence, for Hinkie. I think that is a fair bit due to Stockolm Syndrome but I also think they're not exactly wrong.

The debate around Hinkie and The Process can and will not be settled for years (if ever) so I won't attempt to do so now. But this letter, to me, reads as if it was written by a guy with a really deep and complex mind at a really strange and vulnerable time in his life -- which it certainly was. A lot of it comes across as platitudinous self-aggrandizement, but it seems earnest, you know? I think all the quotations and life lessons from famous people were inserted to lend credence to principles which in his head need none. He's writing to twelve owners, to thousands of people he knew could possibly get a hold of this if it leaked, and most importantly, to himself. I think Hinkie is an awkward communicator and has probably had this entire thing floating around in his head for three years but has never laid it out on paper like this. And now it's all he can do.

I still have a lot of questions about the exact circumstances and motives that led to this existing and eventually ending up in the public's possession, but I really think this is little more than a window into the mind of a very bright (and probably quite humble) dude at a very weird time in his life.

 

[jon abbey]

That Okafor pick cost him his job IMO, no way they should have taken a center there, take the best non-center or trade the pick, but I've been saying that since well before that draft happened. It's hard for ownership to trust a guy who botches a top 3 pick that badly when a huge part of your strategy is to build through the draft (and it's possible they still have put zero building blocks in place, depending how you feel about Noel).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

That Okafor pick cost him his job IMO, no way they should have taken a center there, take the best non-center or trade the pick, but I've been saying that since well before that draft happened. It's hard for ownership to trust a guy who botches a top 3 pick that badly when a huge part of your strategy is to build through the draft (and it's possible they still have put zero building blocks in place, depending how you feel about Noel).

I don't feel the players or the record had much to do with his loss of power earlier in the season and ultimately his walking away today. This was the vision that he sold to the owners and it was in line with what they had hired him to achieve. The problem was Hinkie's reputation around the league for being an awful communicator with the agents and other GM's who are the ones making the deals with him. Once this became known throughout the league that is when ownership lost their faith in him being able to effectively communicate with the agents and GM's to achieve his goals.

One can certainly question the wisdom of building a culture of losing while developing young players but he had already sold that vision to the owners......it was Hinkie's lack of communication skills that cost him his leadership role. You can't lead in his role if you can't communicate.