Yeah, no, I was wondering if they're in the top 5 over some of your picks, but that's really a topic for another thread. Fisk's clearly out.
The Red Sox will retire Wade Boggs’ number on May 26
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Was coming here to post this.
Boggs deserves the honor. The moment the decision was made about Fisk, this was inevitable. Doesn't make him less of an ass, but the guy was an amazing hitter and 1st ballot HofFer.
The 80's were a wonderful era when you had expanding coverage of sports and reporters willing to report on athletes misbehaving or being jerks in a post Ball Four atmosphere, but before athletes were trained by coaches and agents to be aware of PR and "being a brand." This was the golden age of sports nit-wits. Canseco was example number one of this. Boggs and Clemens did not come off well in the media coverage. They both could play though.
Canseco and Bo were who everybody pretended they were on the playground, because they were clearly superhuman. Boggs couldn't compete with that. But thankfully 7 year olds do not decide hall of fame worthiness. Unfortunately, BBWA members do.
I can see arguments on both sides, but for me, as a little kid in the 80s, I really can't imagine what would have made me grow up into a baseball fan if not for Boggs/Clemens. I liked Greenwell and Dewey, and everyone did, but you weren't winning any playground arguments based on them (which is obviously all that matters to kids). I was too little to have enjoyed his true peak years, but 88-92, there wasn't a lot else to root for, and having a guy who would compete for the batting title every year, along with a perennial Cy Young candidate, counted for a lot. There is no one I associate more with the 80s Red Sox teams, and he is a first ballot HoF guy. What more can you do?
We had different years on the playground, obviously. Canseco/Mcgwire and Bo mania was later, c.1989-90ish; the competition for the peak Clemens/Bogg frenzy c. 85-86 was more Mattingly/Brett/Henderson/Trammell and Gooden/Saberhagen types.
Unabashed Dewey fan here. Evans is more deserving than either Boggs or Rice, IMO. None of them are in the league of Doer, Cronin, Williams, Yaz and Fisk, though.
Johnny Pesky, I get, because of sentimentality and longevity, but Boggs makes no sense at all. Seems like silly marketing, but to what end?
Indeed, let's put a business suit up there.
But, despite the fact that the quoted post was meant as a snide joke, Duquette certainly should be recognized for what he did for the franchise.
Again, just about every other HOFer has his number retired, along with many who aren't in the HOF. Yet it makes no sense at all for Boggs? Quite the opposite, actually.
Boggs isn't in the Doerr/Cronin/Fisk league only because he's well above it as a player (especially in Boston) by any objective measure, and Evans is right there with them at the very least.
An argument for Doerr or Cronin over Boggs is going to need to bring in intangibles, which is fine if you want to make that case but you can't just throw away a line saying they're out of his league without arguing for it (and hopefully giving some younger (?) people some insight into what those guys meant to you).
It's pretty simple really. Boggs is finally getting the honor because he's a Hall of Famer who played the majority of his career in a Red Sox uniform. They're finally doing away with (rather than just making exceptions to) the arcane rules set forth by the previous ownership that prevented Boggs from being honored sooner.
This really isn't going to open the flood gates for other players, because how many other Hall of Famers are left that spent significant time in a Red Sox uniform and would even register minutely on the current fanbases radar?
Clemens if he gets into the Hall will probably be have his number put up. Other than that, the next guy might just be Ortiz.
This really isn't going to open the flood gates for other players, because how many other Hall of Famers are left that spent significant time in a Red Sox uniform and would even register minutely on the current fanbases radar?
Clemens if he gets into the Hall will probably be have his number put up. Other than that, the next guy might just be Ortiz.
He's deserving, fits the retired # model, but I'm kind of "eh" about this..
Can he ride a horse around Fenway?
Can he ride a horse around Fenway?
The criteria of HOF induction and spending a significant part of their career with the Sox isn't really cranking up the promotional machine though. That's a reasonable hurdle to establish (I know, Pesky - whatever) and avoids having retired numbers for "True Red Sox" tm, NYY
Of course the HOF hurdle will be ignored for Ortiz if he doesn't get voted in which may very well have purists arguing that retired numbers are being further tarnished.
1989. I'll never forget. Boggs was my favorite active player and obviously Bo was just unreal to watch.
Fair enough, but your standard is basically Carl Yastrzemski and Ted Williams on the facade. Which is noble, but it's a really high standard.
The top five guys in Sox history by WAR are Ted, Yaz, Clemens, Boggs and Dewey. Boggs had ~70 WAR in 11 seasons here, which I find staggering.
boggs was the man. some sparkling offensive regular season stats and very consistent...until the playoffs started!!! basically Manny Ramirez but even worse in October. just completely melted. Manny in 2003 against NY with 0 RBI probably only thing worse than Boggs in 88 or 90 LCS. a guy who never struck out just k'ing all over the place. he still deserves his number retired --3000 hit guy and 5 batting titles but people saying he was better than Fisk is absolute madness. I dont even think hes clearly better than Lynn, Doerr or Cronin but those are more debatable.
On the 40 man roster page of the Sox website, Holt is still shown as #26. His player page now shows #12.
.385/.444/.385 in 1988 ALCS
.438/.438/.644 in 1990 ALCS
8 total games, 34 total PA. Yeah, Boggs was soooo horrible in those ALCS.
FWIW Manny batted 310/333/552 with two home runs and four RBIs against the Yankees in the 03 ALCS.
But other than that, what an excellent, fact-filled post!
But other than that, what an excellent, fact-filled post!
Also, re:
1990 ALCS: 4 games, 3 Ks
Yeah, they're "well above his regular season rates," but far from "all over the place."
(Yeah, I know, I would quickly be voted out. But that's a discussion for another thread).
1988 ALCS: 4 games, 4 Ks
1990 ALCS: 4 games, 3 Ks
Yeah, they're "well above his regular season rates," but far from "all over the place."
SoSH was a much more enjoyable read when it was members/invite-only.
(Yeah, I know, I would quickly be voted out. But that's a discussion for another thread).
You rockin' dial-up?
edit: For bonus points, name the TV announcer who first called Boggs home run
Wade Boggs was awesome and should have his number retired. If you think otherwise you either (a) don't like the concept of people's numbers being retired or (b) are angry at Wade Boggs for the horse thing or (c) just picking a fight.
Also Bobby Doerr was pretty good, out of baseball at 33, and snuck into the HOF via the Veterans' Committee after never cracking 25% of the vote. I know the BBWAA is insane, but still. How anyone could think Bobby Doerr's number being retired is okay, but Boggs's number being retired is not, is beyond me.
Also Bobby Doerr was pretty good, out of baseball at 33, and snuck into the HOF via the Veterans' Committee after never cracking 25% of the vote. I know the BBWAA is insane, but still. How anyone could think Bobby Doerr's number being retired is okay, but Boggs's number being retired is not, is beyond me.
Plus, he hit a home run off Dave Stewart in the postseason (G1 of 1990 ALCS). That's got to count for something. If only the bullpen could have held that lead. Maybe they should have traded a top prospect for a good middle reliever that year at the trading deadline.
And wasn't it President Reagan in the booth when Bo and Boggs went back-to-back?
And wasn't it President Reagan in the booth when Bo and Boggs went back-to-back?
Manny had a .937 OPS in the playoffs for his career. Any sub sample of that is just nit picking. Compared to a .996 regular season OPS, that is incredibly consistent. Also, he ran under a stop sign once and still scored. He rules by any measure except shoving elderly people.
The only reason not to retire Boggs's number is that he is a jerk, but that was eliminated as a criterion when they retired Jim Rice's number. His performance on the field was amazing. I find it hard to get excited about it because, well, he's a jerk, but the merits of his play are indisputable.
Off topic, but one of my favorite tweets ever, and why I will always root for the guy, was when Brandon McCarthy went to the Yankees, and he tweeted " (In Kramer Moviefone voice) Why don't you just tell me which numbers are available..."
Or, (d) think that part of a player's number being retired should be because there is an emotional attachment and relationship between the player, the team and the fanbase that is reciprocal on all fronts. Boggs was certainly a great player and as witnessed here there's a portion of the fanbase that cherished him. But he never seemed to give two shits about the Red Sox or the fans and he still doesn't to this day. (And no, this is not about him going to the Yankees or riding the horse, I honestly don't care about either of those).
He tried to go into the Hall wearing a Tampa hat. He's talked shit about the organization for years because they haven't done this yet. All while refusing a "job" working the Legends suite - as many other retired players do - because they didn't offer enough money for him to go glad hand the fans. He's done nothing to forge any kind of relationship with the team or the fans in the 16 years he's been retired. Even Clemens has done that.
So yeah, he was awesome and his stats are there and he was a first ballot...but he's also a dick, always has been one and always will be one and never did a damn thing to change that image. So I could care less if his number goes up and I consider this a marketing ploy, worthy of the Dentist, even though he's gone.
The other thing to remember, which I don't think others have mentioned is that Boggs did not choose to go to the Yankees over the Red Sox. Lou Gorman was convinced that Scott Cooper was a better player than Wase Boggs. And never even made a competitive offer to keep Wade. I remember watching an episode of SportsCenter's spring training previews where they had a clip of Steinbrenner shaking hands with Boggs saying, "you're going to be the best buy of all this season's free agents."
That Wade Boggs ended up a Yankee is another reason to consider the end of Lou Gorman's tenure a disaster, not a reason to consider Wade Boggs less of a Red Sox icon.
That Wade Boggs ended up a Yankee is another reason to consider the end of Lou Gorman's tenure a disaster, not a reason to consider Wade Boggs less of a Red Sox icon.
I've scanned the thread a couple times now and I'll grant you it was a cursory review, but has anyone stated they are against this because he went to the Yankees? Or are you just projecting that on people that are ambivalent about this? Because whether you agree with it or not there is a rational stance to be taken that isn't "omg thank god they finally did this!"
The home run in the all star game. It was called by guest announcer Ronald Reagan. The announcer was asking him a question, and Reagan interrupted by saying "There's another one" when Boggs hit his
He had been one of my favorite players on the Red Sox and when he switched teams I was 10 years old, so my view then of Boggs leaving was I CAN'T BELIEVE HE BETRAYED US AND PLAYED FOR THE BAD GUYS. Having not really thought about him much since then my initial reaction to him having his number retired was "ew, gross," but reading posts in this thread has convinced me I should look at this a bit more rationally.
I think timing is huge here.
To me, Boggs and Clemens were the shining lights when I was young and impressionable; Bo and Canseco came in later, when I was in high school, and the Boggs/Clemens treason happened when I was in college and much more jaded. I hate the horse antics, but Boggs will always be that guy who was the best hitter in the league (screw you, George Brett! And Mattingly/Trammell/etc) when I was young and impressionable.
Shift me just 3 years earlier and Boggs is no Evans (and obviously Lynne and Fisk and so forth in their times).
Move me 3 years later and Cecil Fielder's hitting 50 HRs, the Bash Brothers are in full effect, and Bo apparently Knows Everything--Boggs is still around, but he's not bringing sexy back.
Move me 6 or 8 years later and he's Benedict Arnold riding a horse on the Loyalist charge against the colonials.
Which is certainly fair and I hope people in the "pro" column realize that no one is really pounding the table in an "anti" campaign. It's just, well, I don't really give a shit about Boggs. I'm 36 so I was around for a good portion of his career and sure, I mimicked his batting stance playing whiffle ball (we used to make each side pick a team and you had copy their lineup and have at least two lefties, since we were all righties), but I never loved the guy and while I didn't really get that offended when he went to NY, the guy has done nothing for me as a fan since to show he considers himself a Red Sox. It's kind of "hey, I played the most seasons with you and the ya Kees sure aren't going to retire my number, but I want some recognition, so I'm going to gripe to reporters until it happens, all while being unwilling to do any goodwill type stuff that Fisk, Yaz, Rice etc do to mend fences. I basically tried to sell my HoF plaque to the Rays, but all good now, right?"
Again I think retired numbers should be a celebration not just of the players accomplishments but also their connection to the organization and the fan base. So Pesky, Fisk, Rice etc strike me as being more deserving than Boggs. Reasonable minds can certainly differ but I don't think it's slam dunk "he was first ballot HoFer, so of course", but that's mho. Ymmv.
Will the guy in the bleachers who would bellow "Waaaaaaaaddddddeee" on Boggs' first AB in every home game be at the ceremony?
Yeah, my view of Boggs is definitely influenced by having grown up as the only Red Sox fan in Yankees territory and him having "defected" to them at the right age.
I'm still undecided what retiring a player's number should mean.
I'm still undecided what retiring a player's number should mean.
Yes, he is taking Napoli's number and over in Cleveland, Nap has announced he will wear 26!
Holt tweeted #NapNation and Nap tweeted: I'll be wearing #26 #BrockStar
Boggs was indeed a great player during his time in Boston. Unbelievable at the plate, and he became a very good 3B as well. I'll put Yaz, Williams, and Pedro in the uppermost tier of Red Sox players, but Boggs definitely leads the next tier.
However, I agree with several posters that Boggs never did anything to cultivate any sort of relationship to either the fans or his teammates. And that was 100% his own fault. Recall the very public dustup he had with Clemens after Boggs asked that an error be changed to a hit. I don't blame him for going to the Yankees, and could care less about the horse nonsense (I have no idea why people care at all about that). But, for the record, he left as a free agent after he compiled a 0.711 OPS and 96 OPS+ in 1992 at the age of 34. He's had nothing to do with the organization since he left.
I'm not at all bothered by the team's deciding to retire his number. But I never felt it was the world's greatest injustice that his number hadn't been retired either. The team did make him a member of the Red Sox Hall of Fame, so it's not like the Red Sox have completely ignored his career.
However, I agree with several posters that Boggs never did anything to cultivate any sort of relationship to either the fans or his teammates. And that was 100% his own fault. Recall the very public dustup he had with Clemens after Boggs asked that an error be changed to a hit. I don't blame him for going to the Yankees, and could care less about the horse nonsense (I have no idea why people care at all about that). But, for the record, he left as a free agent after he compiled a 0.711 OPS and 96 OPS+ in 1992 at the age of 34. He's had nothing to do with the organization since he left.
I'm not at all bothered by the team's deciding to retire his number. But I never felt it was the world's greatest injustice that his number hadn't been retired either. The team did make him a member of the Red Sox Hall of Fame, so it's not like the Red Sox have completely ignored his career.
Has anyone ever confirmed the TB hat in the HOF thing?
I dunno. Even if it's true, he's just such an outlier on the non-retired numbers spectrum that it would take a violent felony to justify it, not a series of petty squabbles, however silly they may be. Moreover, all of these guys are spoiled assholes at times. Ortiz asks for scoring changes all the time. Rickey Henderson and Reggie Jackson, to name only two, made Boggs look like a model teammate and employee. I see the Margo Adams affair mentioned (not so much in this thread but media accounts), like he's the only ball player (or person) to cheat on his wife. I dunno. I think he's being held to a higher standard, and there's definitely a segment who thinks his walks were a selfish act and only served to "clog the base paths".
I dunno. Even if it's true, he's just such an outlier on the non-retired numbers spectrum that it would take a violent felony to justify it, not a series of petty squabbles, however silly they may be. Moreover, all of these guys are spoiled assholes at times. Ortiz asks for scoring changes all the time. Rickey Henderson and Reggie Jackson, to name only two, made Boggs look like a model teammate and employee. I see the Margo Adams affair mentioned (not so much in this thread but media accounts), like he's the only ball player (or person) to cheat on his wife. I dunno. I think he's being held to a higher standard, and there's definitely a segment who thinks his walks were a selfish act and only served to "clog the base paths".
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It seems like it was thrown out there by some tabloid types years ago and then repeated. Articles from his time of induction claim Boggs didn't care what hat they chose.
But, if the hat story were true, I doubt Boggs was going around to teams in 1997, demanding they buy his hat rights; rather, if actually true, I suspect it would have been a front office exec trying to structure a deal with team based incentives.
It hasn't been heavy o. The Yankees specifically, but I absolutely detect an undercurrent of "He's not a lifetime Red Sox." I think it's important to point out that the reason for him not having a longer tenure with Boston is that Lou Gorman never offered him a contract. He didn't spurn the Red Sox when he left, they shoved him out the door.
That's some pink hat level justification (and I know you're not a pink hat). Boggs wasn't half the prick that Ted Williams was, so there is no good guy criteria. You're always on people about providing justification for their posts. What evidence do you have that he never gave 2 shits about the Red Sox or the fans? Like every player that left in the 90's he was treated like crap on the way out. They gave out his number like candy to any fringe major leaguer that came along while holding Rice's 14 and Clemens' 21 in reserve. Guy gets treated like shit, low balled for some ass kissing job and it's on him for "refusing" to suck up to the rich cat 'fans'. Anyone with an ounce of pride would be bitter, which he freely admits in this article. https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/09/wade-boggs-buys-into-field-dreams-and-dreams-retired-number-fenway/9KYF46kB1A7DNWsfGkLWIJ/story.html
For a board that prides itself on being smarter than other baseball sites, there are some cringe worthy reactions to this. Boggs got it done on the field which is ultimately what it is all about. He is undeniably among the Red Sox greats and this is a long overdue honor.
And let us not forget all of the work he has done to bring sexual addiction into the psychiatric mainstream.
Good point about timing. I was just getting done with college and also just beginning to understand the "value" of a hitter like Boggs (even though his BA was stratospherical) beyond his BA, HR, SB and RBI. He was one of the first hitters to make me say "holy shit" for different reasons than I had said "holy shit" for the previous 15 years so I had watched baseball. 406/444/407/450/453/461/476(!!)/430.
One of those years he only swung and missed 5 times (or something superhuman like that) or had only 5 infield popups.
Yeah his postseasons were generally unspectacular. But he was also the only hitter to show up during the Oakland blowouts in 88 and 90.
Retiring his number seems like a no-brainer to me. It combines the "time heals all wounds" aspect of Buckner with a substantively deserving recognition.
I wish the Sox were more selective about retiring numbers -- my list would be Williams, Yaz, Pesky, Pedro and Rice (and JER is something of a special case). But in a world where we've got Cronin and Fisk on the facade, Boggs belongs too.
I would much rather have the best (non felon) players' uniforms in history retired, than have an undeserving putz like Phil Rizzuto.
He was the best positional player during the vanilla 80's teams and one of the top 5 3rd baseman in history.
Ignoring those accomplishments, just because he was an eccentric jack ass is kind of silly.
Edit: Just wanted to add the list of all the Hall of Famers who overlapped Boggs during his career. Every one of those players has had their number retired. Winfield had his issues with the Yankees, but they buried the hatchet. Steve Carlton is easily the weirdest guy on that list, and Henderson and Jackson were definitely considered selfish ball players. Murray was pretty inaccessible and unfriendly to the press, much like Rice. Puckett had domestic violence issues. I get that some of us want 100% rah rah Red Sox guys up there, but it just would have looked downright petty to keep him off the wall.
Speaking of walls, they should retire his number somewhere on the Monster.
Tom Seaver
Reggie Jackson
Steve Carlton
Mike Schmidt
Phil Niekro
Don Sutton
George Brett
Robin Yount
Carlton Fisk
Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
Ozzie Smith
Eddie Murray
Dennis Eckersley
Paul Molitor
Ryne Sandberg
Bruce Sutter
Tony Gwynn
Cal Ripken
Rich Gossage
Rickey Henderson
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
He was the best positional player during the vanilla 80's teams and one of the top 5 3rd baseman in history.
Ignoring those accomplishments, just because he was an eccentric jack ass is kind of silly.
Edit: Just wanted to add the list of all the Hall of Famers who overlapped Boggs during his career. Every one of those players has had their number retired. Winfield had his issues with the Yankees, but they buried the hatchet. Steve Carlton is easily the weirdest guy on that list, and Henderson and Jackson were definitely considered selfish ball players. Murray was pretty inaccessible and unfriendly to the press, much like Rice. Puckett had domestic violence issues. I get that some of us want 100% rah rah Red Sox guys up there, but it just would have looked downright petty to keep him off the wall.
Speaking of walls, they should retire his number somewhere on the Monster.
Tom Seaver
Reggie Jackson
Steve Carlton
Mike Schmidt
Phil Niekro
Don Sutton
George Brett
Robin Yount
Carlton Fisk
Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
Ozzie Smith
Eddie Murray
Dennis Eckersley
Paul Molitor
Ryne Sandberg
Bruce Sutter
Tony Gwynn
Cal Ripken
Rich Gossage
Rickey Henderson
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
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