The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom

[Toe Nash]

what he was asked to do was essentially rebuild the farm system and win at the same time while staying under the CBT threshold. Two of those things at once are pretty tough. All three of them, it's damn near impossible to do at the same time.

Their farm system is really good now. I don't think people outside of the industry appreciate how strong it is and how Orioles-like it is like in terms of the position players they've got, but they've got a lot of guys who are going to be dudes...Their lineup is going to be scary in a little while. Pitching-wise they're not great—but how many organizations are? Developing pitching is one of the hardest things to do.

Eh, I don't know that I agree with Passan here. He seems to like Bloom a lot.

• You don't think Henry et al knows that winning and rebuilding at the same time is hard?
• Their farm system improved but not dramatically and it's not like Bloom nailed a whole lot of deep cuts. They are still WELL behind the Orioles, Fangraphs has them at 3 but likes them much more than other rankings, and a number of the young guys including Rafaela and Casas predate Bloom anyway. A whole like of their ranking rides on Meyer which was a no-brainer at the time.
• He didn't stay under the CBT threshold in 2022, famously?

I can see those being the criteria for success and still thinking Bloom didn't do a great job at any of them.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

When you don’t make any trades, the strength of the farm system increase. When you do, it gets worse. This isn’t really rocket science.

 

[Tim Salmon]

Injuries, bad pitching, awful defense, bad coaching, team has given up, etc.

4 holes in the starting 9 seems like an aggressively unrealistic position.

& I think we have 2 holes in the rotation, & clearing up the defense issues will help a ton with the rest of it.

I'm generally optimistic about the team, but what's the path forward for clearing up the defensive issues on a roster where Yoshida, Devers, and Casas are fixtures, and Duran is still penciled in for CF? I expect the up-the-middle defense to be better (how could it not be?), but it seems that moving a bad defender to DH still leaves the team trying to overcome subpar to terrible defense at two or three positions.

 

[RS2004foreever]

There was no reason this team could not have made the playoffs. The simple truth was there were cost effective moves that would have made the starting pitching much better. All of the talk about bridge years kind of misses the point. This team had talent

 

[bosockboy]

There was no reason this team could not have made the playoffs. The simple truth was there were cost effective moves that would have made the starting pitching much better. All of the talk about bridge years kind of misses the point. This team had talent

I suspect ownership’s vision was to rebuild and win 87-90 games while being one of the wildcard teams. Which I think is pretty reasonable.

 

[JM3]

I'm generally optimistic about the team, but what's the path forward for clearing up the defensive issues on a roster where Yoshida, Devers, and Casas are fixtures, and Duran is still penciled in for CF? I expect the up-the-middle defense to be better (how could it not be?), but it seems that moving a bad defender to DH still leaves the team trying to overcome subpar to terrible defense at two or three positions.

Part of it is just having Story for a full season. Part of it is working Rafaela in. Part of it is continuing to see improvement from Casas defensively. Part of it is probably not employing a full time DH.

The other guys coming through the system are also plus defenders at their position including Mayer, Yorke, Teel & Anthony.

 

[BringBackMo]

When you don’t make any trades, the strength of the farm system increase. When you do, it gets worse. This isn’t really rocket science.

So what Chaim is good at is not trading prospects. Got it.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

When you don’t make any trades, the strength of the farm system increase. When you do, it gets worse. This isn’t really rocket science.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I buy that. If you don't trade off players that are behind other, more valued prospects, or that are redundant to what you have on the ML team, then the value of those prospects lower. In effect, they atrophy. And if you let a player atrophy enough then the value can dip to slightly above zero or the team could lose a once valued prospect for nothing in the Rule V draft.

It's not enough to have an eye for prospects, you have to also know which ones aren't going to make it. AND you have to be able to strong enough in your convictions to send them away, even though it might bite you in the ass. You can't be a hoarder, there are only so many positions on a Major League roster.

So what Chaim is good at is not trading prospects. Got it.

This wasn't one of his strengths, no.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I buy that. If you don't trade off players that are behind other, more valued prospects, or that are redundant to what you have on the ML team, then the value of those prospects lower. In effect, they atrophy. And if you let a player atrophy enough then the value can dip to slightly above zero or the team could lose a once valued prospect for nothing in the Rule V draft.

It's not enough to have an eye for prospects, you have to also know which ones aren't going to make it. AND you have to be able to strong enough in your convictions to send them away, even though it might bite you in the ass. You can't be a hoarder, there are only so many positions on a Major League roster.



This wasn't one of his strengths, no.

Oh yeah, I agree. Just meaning that improving a farm system when you are moving from really trying to win it all to not really isn’t a huge accomplishment- it’s kind of the natural order of things given the cycle that the Sox found themselves in. Over the next four years, it seems pretty much a given that the Sox farm system will get worse as players graduate, the team hopefully gets better (and thus has worse draft picks), and likely makes more moves to bolster the major league club.

 

[rodderick]

I believe it's fair to say revamping the farm system while getting under the tax and remaining competitive is a very difficult balance to achieve, but I also think people are overestimating the difficulty of accomplishing the first two without expectations regarding the third. "Get under the tax and rebuild the farm" was never going to be the sole mandate.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

When you don’t make any trades, the strength of the farm system increase. When you do, it gets worse. This isn’t really rocket science.

Depends on the trades. ERod for Miller and even the Slocumb trade improved the system

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Depends on the trades. ERod for Miller and even the Slocumb trade improved the system

Sure, those were trades of major leaguers, which would have no impact on the minor league system.

 

[BringBackMo]

This wasn't one of his strengths, no.

We simply have no idea if it was or was not. Like the organizations they are attempting to emulate, the Sox were trying to build depth at every level of the minor league system. They basically have it now up to AA. They absolutely were not hoarding prospects. Adding to this, the Sox were fielding high-variance MLB rosters, ones that could compete at the margins for a WC spot if things in a given season went right. They were not at a point where they were looking to trade good prospects for MLB players because they were still building toward their championship contention window. You have been consistent in your opposition to that approach, which is more than fair, but I don’t think there’s any way anyone can argue that this was NOT the strategy they were pursuing. As such, Bloom never got the chance to demonstrate his acumen when it comes to trading his prospects. We have zero evidence of his abilities in this area.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Oh yeah, I agree. Just meaning that improving a farm system when you are moving from really trying to win it all to not really isn’t a huge accomplishment- it’s kind of the natural order of things given the cycle that the Sox found themselves in. Over the next four years, it seems pretty much a given that the Sox farm system will get worse as players graduate, the team hopefully gets better (and thus has worse draft picks), and likely makes more moves to bolster the major league club.

Gotcha. That's why the Red Sox had a shit ranked farm system in the late teens, it's because all of the players who were crushing it (Benitendi, Betts, Devers, Bogaerts, JBJ) were up here. Really good, farm-built systems tend not to rank as high once that wave of strong MLB talent crests. Everyone, since Branch Rickey on, has wanted a sustainable pipeline from AAA to MLB, it doesn't happen. There are normal ebbs and flows, that's just the way it goes.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Sure, those were trades of major leaguers, which would have no impact on the minor league system.

ERod wasnt a major leaguer. Wink for Benintendi, the Kike Hernandez trade this summer also helped the system

 

[RS2004foreever]

I suspect ownership’s vision was to rebuild and win 87-90 games while being one of the wildcard teams. Which I think is pretty reasonable.

I think that is what Bloom told them as well.

 

[tims4wins]

One thing he wasn’t good at was trading FOR prospects. Either because he didn’t do it (JDM) or he misfired (Renfrow).

 

[jbupstate]

Are we talking about not trading prospect last offseason or at the deadline?

A bunch of players really took leaps forward this year. For example- How much trade value did Anthony have over the winter vs today?

I’m not sure Bloom should have traded anything at the deadline to just make the WC3. I am sure Bloom needed to make moves this offseason. Especially with a sudden rush of prospects hitting AA that have MLB roster potential.

I’m looking forward to not having Bloom articles and conversations this offseason. There are some solid pieces currently in Fenway, some prospects getting very close and additional prospects that could be useful in trades.

 

[BringBackMo]

One thing he wasn’t good at was trading FOR prospects. Either because he didn’t do it (JDM) or he misfired (Renfrow).

How do you feel about the Christian Vazquez trade?

 

[tims4wins]

How do you feel about the Christian Vazquez trade?

Optimistic. But one such deal among several.

 

[BringBackMo]

One thing he wasn’t good at was trading FOR prospects. Either because he didn’t do it (JDM) or he misfired (Renfrow).

Also, what kind of return were you expecting for Hunter Renfroe, who has been straight up released by two-thirds of MLB teams at one point or another in his career?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

We simply have no idea if it was or was not. Like the organizations they are attempting to emulate, the Sox were trying to build depth at every level of the minor league system. They basically have it now up to AA. They absolutely were not hoarding prospects. Adding to this, the Sox were fielding high-variance MLB rosters, ones that could compete at the margins for a WC spot if things in a given season went right. They were not at a point where they were looking to trade good prospects for MLB players because they were still building toward their championship contention window. You have been consistent in your opposition to that approach, which is more than fair, but I don’t think there’s any way anyone can argue that this was NOT the strategy they were pursuing. As such, Bloom never got the chance to demonstrate his acumen when it comes to trading his prospects. We have zero evidence of his abilities in this area.

As you pointed out, I'm obviously not going to agree with this, but I think that because of where the Sox were in the standing and the immediate need of starting pitchers, this was Bloom's first real chance to separate the wheat from the chaff. He didn't need to trade from his top ten list of prospects (Mayer, Yorke, etc) but there had to be B players that he could have sent for a league average starter. No one is that optimistic that all of their picks are going to be Major Leaguers (forget ML stars) and that's what they're there for: to use as chits to gather players to strengthen your ML team.

That's the point, right? It's awesome to have a Top Five minor league system, but what does that get your ML team?

A big part of Bloom's job is to know who's a prospect and who's a suspect. He has piles and piles and piles of data that can give him as close to a 100% decision as he can possibly make without being a virgin priestess from Delphi. But for some reason, he didn't do that. I'm not sure why.

My sneaking suspicion is that he's not quite the "data driven GM" as he's portrayed. I don't mean that he's dumb, I think that he knows the numbers up and down, forward and back. I don't think he ever fully trusted his data which is why he was always analyzing and unsure of what to do, especially when it came to making deals. If you're data driven, you believe in the numbers, you're confident that they're right; Bloom never seemed to be.

And if you're not confident about what the future numbers are telling you, John Henry won't believe in you. I think that's why he was ultimately let go.

 

[Fishy1]

Yeah, I don't get that. Bloom's best moves were identifying players outside the organization and trading flotsam for them. Getting Abreu and Valdez for Vasquez was a steal. Getting Whitlock in the Rule V was also a steal. I can't know what went on with Duvall, Sale, and Paxton at the deadline, but if the mandate was to be competitive, you couldn't really sell them off unless you had other deals squared away. I think if the team had been willing to tank the rest of the season, selling those guys off would have been the most prudent thing. But hindsight is 20/20, or even 20/10...

I happened to have been in the camp that thought the team could be competitive if the guys coming back came back healthy and played well. That did not happen. Definitely not.

The Story deal has been really bad so far, but I'm hopeful the back-end will be better. Getting Urias for practically nothing may also pay dividends. If he plays the way he has in the past, he'll quickly become one of our most valuable players.

 

[BringBackMo]

As you pointed out, I'm obviously not going to agree with this, but I think that because of where the Sox were in the standing and the immediate need of starting pitchers, this was Bloom's first real chance to separate the wheat from the chaff. He didn't need to trade from his top ten list of prospects (Mayer, Yorke, etc) but there had to be B players that he could have sent for a league average starter. No one is that optimistic that all of their picks are going to be Major Leaguers (forget ML stars) and that's what they're there for: to use as chits to gather players to strengthen your ML team.

That's the point, right? It's awesome to have a Top Five minor league system, but what does that get your ML team?

A big part of Bloom's job is to know who's a prospect and who's a suspect. He has piles and piles and piles of data that can give him as close to a 100% decision as he can possibly make without being a virgin priestess from Delphi. But for some reason, he didn't do that. I'm not sure why.

My sneaking suspicion is that he's not quite the "data driven GM" as he's portrayed. I don't mean that he's dumb, I think that he knows the numbers up and down, forward and back. I don't think he ever fully trusted his data which is why he was always analyzing and unsure of what to do, especially when it came to making deals. If you're data driven, you believe in the numbers, you're confident that they're right; Bloom never seemed to be.

And if you're not confident about what the future numbers are telling you, John Henry won't believe in you. I think that's why he was ultimately let go.

I understand your point. I think we simply very much disagree on this one.

 

[BaseballJones]

When you don’t make any trades, the strength of the farm system increase. When you do, it gets worse. This isn’t really rocket science.

Depends on what trades you make. Trading Sale would probably have strengthened the farm system.

 

[jbupstate]

One thing he wasn’t good at was trading FOR prospects. Either because he didn’t do it (JDM) or he misfired (Renfrow).

Do we still think Renfroe and his 1 good year in Milwaukee was going to bring back a stud prospect. He’s right hand power but he’s a below average hitter and borderline butcher right fielder. There is a reason he’s been on 6 different teams over the past 5 seasons. He low key sucks.

 

[BringBackMo]

Yeah, I don't get that. Bloom's best moves were identifying players outside the organization and trading flotsam for them. Getting Abreu and Valdez for Vasquez was a steal. Getting Whitlock in the Rule V was also a steal. I can't know what went on with Duvall, Sale, and Paxton at the deadline, but if the mandate was to be competitive, you couldn't really sell them off unless you had other deals squared away. I think if the team had been willing to tank the rest of the season, selling those guys off would have been the most prudent thing. But hindsight is 20/20, or even 20/10...

I happened to have been in the camp that thought the team could be competitive if the guys coming back came back healthy and played well. That did not happen. Definitely not.

The Story deal has been really bad so far, but I'm hopeful the back-end will be better. Getting Urias for practically nothing may also pay dividends. If he plays the way he has in the past, he'll quickly become one of our most valuable players.

Pablo Reyes is another one.
EDIT: Reese McGuire, too.

 

[santadevil]

There was no reason this team could not have made the playoffs. The simple truth was there were cost effective moves that would have made the starting pitching much better. All of the talk about bridge years kind of misses the point. This team had talent

I kind of agree. We've beaten on this point a bit in other threads, but who were the cost effective guys that would have helped, compared to the cost effective guys that ended up having a poor season or getting hurt?
Hindsight and all that, it's unknown when you're getting these guys

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

One thing he wasn’t good at was trading FOR prospects. Either because he didn’t do it (JDM) or he misfired (Renfrow).

The aforementioned Valdez and Abreu for Vazquez look good. Wong and Winckowski belong on the list too.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Do we still think Renfroe and his 1 good year in Milwaukee was going to bring back a stud prospect. He’s right hand power but he’s a below average hitter and borderline butcher right fielder. There is a reason he’s been on 6 different teams over the past 5 seasons. He low key sucks.

No, but taking on $20M for JBJ’s rotting corpse should have brought something appealing.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

No, but taking on $20M for JBJ’s rotting corpse should have brought something appealing.

You dare disparage the Blizzard?

 

[JM3]

One day we're going to look back fondly on the Greg Allen for Diego Hernandez trade.

More seriously, Corey Rosier from the Groome trade just got promoted to AAA & has made a big leap this season.

Grant Gambrell & Luis De La Rosa from the Benny trade have also gotten more interesting.

 

[mauf]

The bolded quote is well said and is the cause of confusion for me. I expected that the Front Office knew they could only reliably accomplish two of those things at a time and elected farm system and CBT threshold as the two targets while hoping to get lucky with some reclamation projects/injuries this year. Firing Bloom now feels like the Front Office has less of a plan than I assumed, which is unnerving moving forward.

I had the same reaction. The current ownership group has been amazing, but if they expected the plan CB has been executing to yield more immediate on-field success than it has, they’ve lost touch. Hopefully this is all posturing, and they are looking for a GM with a different skill set and/or want to move on from the guy who traded Mookie and let X walk.

 

[BigSoxFan]

One day we're going to look back fondly on the Greg Allen for Diego Hernandez trade.

More seriously, Corey Rosier from the Groome trade just got promoted to AAA & has made a big leap this season.

Grant Gambrell & Luis De La Rosa from the Benny trade have also gotten more interesting.

I think that illustrates that Chaim should have sold as much as he could for more bites at the apple. You just never know who’s going to take a step forward in their development and this year’s team just didn’t have it, due to a variety of factors.

 

[JM3]

I think that illustrates that Chaim should have sold as much as he could for more bites at the apple. You just never know who’s going to take a step forward in their development and this year’s team just didn’t have it, due to a variety of factors.

I agree & to some extent wish that had been the strategy. & I think to some extent Bloom probably wishes it was the strategy because that's a much easier path to take.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The aforementioned Valdez and Abreu for Vazquez look good. Wong and Winckowski belong on the list too.

There's also acquiring guys who were close to the beginnings of their ML career as cost-controlled ML players. Verdugo, Pivetta, Arroyo, McGuire.

He had plenty of misses, but he did put together a core of credible ML talent, leaving $ available for the bigger signings like Devers, Duvall, Turner, Jansen, Martin, etc.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

The 2003 team was thisclose, and still brought in a #1 pitcher and a closer.

The 2023 team is like a canyon sized gap vs. 2003.

Even still, the organization today is in a better position than the organization was in 2019. The problem is during that time there were 2-3 last place finishes.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I agree & to some extent wish that had been the strategy. & I think to some extent Bloom probably wishes it was the strategy because that's a much easier path to take.

Agreed. Signing vets at low cost and then flipping for prospects is good business and it also gives you more capital to make other longer-term deals. We had a few good candidates this year and chances are some of those returns would probably have been useful this offseason and beyond.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

& it's also not a ridiculous statement that Scott Boras has a pretty good feel for the market & would have advised X that he would be costing himself upward of $60m by accepting such an offer & X would make the wise decision & listen to his agent & wait for free agency.

That will always be Boras' suggestion, and if Bloom was truly as shell shocked about the San Diego deal as we are lead to believe, than it's possible that San Diego outbid the best Red Sox offer by $100-$120 mil and the best other offer by $60-80 mil. My assumption was that Bloom potentially thought that morning that Xander was taking a moderate discount to stay with the Red Sox relative to other offers on the table (say $160 vs $200).

If I were an owner I'd hire him as Farm System Director in a cocaine heartbeat.

But I wouldn't give him further control than that.

And perhaps that's the model that has to be taken here. Somewhere up thread the idea was broached of having two GMs, one to be an expert in minor league development like Bloom and then one for the Major League side of things like Dombrowski. Obviously baseball ops departments have their experts but to my knowledge we haven't seen two "big names" serve in a shared role before.

 

[jon abbey]

Even still, the organization today is in a better position than the organization was in 2019. The problem is during that time there were 2-3 last place finishes.

I think the real problem, which has only occasionally been touched on in this thread, is the strides that BAL and TB have made with young talent in that same time period.

 

[jbupstate]

No, but taking on $20M for JBJ’s rotting corpse should have brought something appealing.

Great point

The same way Price dragged down the Mookie pieces.

 

[AZBlue]

Some of Bloom's decisions about free agents puzzled me. Eovaldi and Wacha performed well for the Sox. I was very disappointed that it did not appear the Red Sox saw value in re-signing them.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

How do you feel about the Christian Vazquez trade?

Confused. In a vacuum it's a solid trade for the Red Sox but it was done without the other subsequently logical trades of dealing JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, Bogaerts or anyone else of value that could have got them below the luxury tax.

Bloom's unwillingness to pull the trigger on things that would have made the organization better was ultimately his downfall.

 

[tims4wins]

Even still, the organization today is in a better position than the organization was in 2019. The problem is during that time there were 2-3 last place finishes.

Exactly. 4 years of our life had gone by. Yay?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Because the Red Sox finally have sufficient cost controlled talent, very few holes, $80m to spend & a top 5 farm system.

Whether Bloom is the best guy to take them to the next level, or whether someone else is, either way, the team is very well set up to compete moving forward.

I see a good number of holes. I'd say they need 2-3 starting pitchers, upgrade at 2B, a decision to make in RF long-term, and defensive issues all over the field. Top 5 farm system is debatable, but the system is in a much better spot than when Bloom got here that is for sure. They've got some pieces to like long-term, but they've got a long ways to go in order to become a true championship contender.

 

[Fishercat]

I'll regurgitate an earlier post on this, posted below this one. TLDR is that there are not "grow" types and "spend" types of GMs. Cherrington created a talent gap in the org that hit in 2020. That gap, combined with various FA signings led to an expensive club with key players rocketing toward FA.

So no.

You can't:

1) shed albatross contracts (Sale, Price) - without giving up $ or talent.​

2) easily sign FAs or extend players - because you have a cap and albatross contracts.​

3) acquire young, cost-controlled ML players - without trading out of a small stockpile of prospects.​

4) grow the prospect pool overnight.​

***
Earlier post:

There's this weird memeish suggestion that keeps floating around that Cherrington was this great minor league developer that DD sort of cashed in on early. That's 100% not the case.

-Theo left a pretty amazingly stocked farm system with the 2011 draft.​

​

-Cherrington's drafts were awful to "meh" though he did add a few key players (Devers). His main plus (vis a vis the farm system) was not trading away good players.​

​

-DD traded mostly out of Cherrington's good to meh picks for guys like Sale. DD also drafted/signed well and restocked the system.​

I don't think you can really "spend" out of the system to acquire Pomeranz and Sale level talent for the 2016-19 GFIN bubble, while at the same time stocking the system with equally developed talent. Just the nature of the beast.

But it's sort of a fantasy that DD somehow shoveled actual talent out the door for ephemeral gains. I mean, do we really want a 2016-21 team with Yoan Moncada on it? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moncayo01.shtml Michael Kopech? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kopecmi01.shtml

They're not bad players, but Sale was the key to the 2018 WS victory - they would not have been.

For drafts Theo was 2004-2011, Cherrington was 2012-2015, and DD 2016-2019. I added notable international signings with an underline. So:

DD:
2019- Cannon, Lugo, Song, Murphy.
2018- Casas, Duran. Rafaela, Bello.
2017- Houck, Crawford. Hector Velazquez.
2016- Groome, Dalbec. Mata.

BC:
2015- Benintendi, Allen, Poyner
2014- Chavis, Kopech, Travis, Beeks. Moncada, Rusney, Espinosa, Bazardo.
2013- Ball, Stankiewicz, Denney, Dubon. Devers, Darwinzon.
2012- Marrero, Johnson, Light, Maddox, Buttrey

TE:
2011- Barnes, Swihart, Owens, JBJ, Jerez, Ramirez, Mookie, Travis Shaw. Margot.
2010- Brentz, Workman.
2009- Kelley, Hazelbaker. Iglesias, Bogaerts.
2008- Weiland, Federowicz, Vazquez. Tazawa.
2007- Hagadone, Rizzo, Middlebrooks.

The big issue to me with this type of analysis is that it only really covers the "nature" part of the equation and ignores the "nurture". For instance, Bryan Mata. He spent three years in the Dombrowski developmental system and is now on four years in the Bloom developmental system. A guy like Rafaela or Bello was a fringe IFA signee who did the bulk of their development in a Bloom system even if picked by DD. Owens may be a Theo "miss" but missed while in development in the BC system. Devers crossed BC to DD, Benny spent a lot of it in the DD realm, Mookie was mostly during BC, etc. It's well documented that DD ran a very small, tight minor league developmental system whereas Bloom ran an extremely expansive one, and that needs to be considered as part of this. I don't think or know how to quantify this to be honest and it may not be possible but I certainly think the credit for a guy like Casas goes both to Dombrowski's regime and scouts (for making the pick) and Chaim's regime and prospect development team (for fostering him) and, hopefully, New GM X for continuing that for years to come.

Eh, I don't know that I agree with Passan here. He seems to like Bloom a lot.

• You don't think Henry et al knows that winning and rebuilding at the same time is hard?
• Their farm system improved but not dramatically and it's not like Bloom nailed a whole lot of deep cuts. They are still WELL behind the Orioles, Fangraphs has them at 3 but likes them much more than other rankings, and a number of the young guys including Rafaela and Casas predate Bloom anyway. A whole like of their ranking rides on Meyer which was a no-brainer at the time.
• He didn't stay under the CBT threshold in 2022, famously?

I can see those being the criteria for success and still thinking Bloom didn't do a great job at any of them.

That's just not true. Like a lot of this stuff is up for debate on Bloom but this really isn't. Saying they're "Well Behind the Orioles" is like saying they're less hot than Sydney Sweeney (if Bloom doesn't get credit for Teel at 15, the Orioles can hardly get credit for the 11th, 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 1st overall picks from 2018-2022 either)

Using Fangraphs are the barometer for 2019 and 2023, the Sox had 3 "45 FV" prospects at the beginning of 2019 (Casas, D. Hernandez, and Chavis), 5 40+ Prospects (Houck the only successful one), and 14 40 FV prospects (Duran, Bello most notably). The 2023 Red Sox have 5 "55 FV" prospects, two "50 FV" prospects, one "45 FV" prospect (excluding Yoshida). and then you need to down to the 9-13 range to get to the 45 FV guys. I certainly quibble with who they have ranked and where but the high end is much higher and the depth is substantially better. Further a substantial portion of those guys were Bloom acquisitions and pretty much all of them spent most or all of their minor league time developed in the Red Sox system with Bloom at the helm. If you don't like Fangraphs - MLB.com has them going from one Top 100 guy (Casas, excluding Downs as a Bloom trade fail), to 4 Top 100 guys today (other rankings are usually between 4 and 6 names). MILB.Com had the Sox as the single worst farm system going into 2019, and pretty much any publication at least has them as Top Half right now, many as high as Top 5. Whatever you think of Bloom's roster construction or trade acumen, playing down the farm system improvement is absolute BS.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

Agreed. Signing vets at low cost and then flipping for prospects is good business and it also gives you more capital to make other longer-term deals. We had a few good candidates this year and chances are some of those returns would probably have been useful this offseason and beyond.

This is how I would have been approaching the "rebuilding years" if that's what this was. It seems that may have been Bloom's mindset but when it came to decision making time he never really went all in either as a buyer or seller. His tenure here had many players on short term contracts that would be viable trade candidates. In 2021 he made a choice that they would be buyers but even then didn't go as "all in" as we had hoped. In 2022 he sat on the fence and in 2023 he seemed to be in sell mode but wouldn't pull the trigger.

I don't know if job security was an issue or what the variable would have been, but the lack of conviction at each of these trade deadlines couldn't have sat well with Henry and Co. There is the occasion where doing nothing is the right move. I refuse to believe that was the case in the 2022 and 2023 trade deadlines.

I think the real problem, which has only occasionally been touched on in this thread, is the strides that BAL and TB have made with young talent in that same time period.

You can add Toronto into the mix as well, but they all had a head start. It took them quite some time to get to the point they're at today. In theory we could be there too if we skipped over the Dombrowski era (I believe Cherington got a raw deal here), but we may also by celebrating the 10 year anniversary of our last championship instead of the 5 year anniversary.

 

[moondog80]

Confused. In a vacuum it's a solid trade for the Red Sox but it was done without the other subsequently logical trades of dealing JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, Bogaerts or anyone else of value that could have got them below the luxury tax.

They didn't trade them because they valued their shot at the postseason more than the marginal draft pick improvements the would have gained by getting under the tax. It didn't work out with the playoffs. That's how it goes sometimes.

Trading Vazquez didn't hurt the playoff push because they were able to replace his outfit with the McGuire deal.

 

[Fishercat]

Some of Bloom's decisions about free agents puzzled me. Eovaldi and Wacha performed well for the Sox. I was very disappointed that it did not appear the Red Sox saw value in re-signing them.

I am pretty sure the Eo issue was timing. Sox offered him a deal, he thought he could get more and left to do it, Sox signed the replacement, and he realized he couldn't and it was too late to come back. Wacha, yeah, I don't get that either, maybe someone else has background there.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Even still, the organization today is in a better position than the organization was in 2019. The problem is during that time there were 2-3 last place finishes.

Another part of the Carrabis podcast touched on just how far the organization fell behind in the player development process in the years before Bloom took over. Bloom is credited with hiring a bunch of people that helped elevate that side. The Sox used to be one of the most forward thinking organizations in the game in the Theo and Cherington years, but that fell by the wayside under Dombrowski. So, in this aspect the organization is in a better position than it was in 2019. However, Bloom largely failed to keep the big league team competitive in those same 4 years. I won't take away 2021 from him because it did happen, but they were this close to not making the playoffs that year too. Could be 3 last place finishes outside of that(even if it's 4th this year who cares....it's still a failure). In this market, you should be able to develop a minor league system and also win at the big league level. He also botched 2 straight trade deadlines. 2022 he did not get under the luxury tax when he had the chance and this year from all reports he had opportunities to trade players and couldn't make a decision so he stood pat. That indecisiveness undoubtedly led ownership to believe that he wasn't the right person to lead the organization as it takes the next step in the process. I'm sure Bloom would do a decent job as GM of a smaller market team or as a #2 or #3 in a big market, but at this moment in time the results prove that he was not ready to be a big market GM/PBO.