The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom

[Marciano490]

Did we all forget the outrage the last time the sox publicly said they were having a bridge year?
I would have been fine with it. But the media? Fat chance.

That doesn’t answer the question. Ignore the theory that the ownership group decided to play Pravda and execute a rebuild without telling the fans and hoping they wouldn’t notice all the last place finishes so long as the magic bad word wasn’t used.

Is 3 out of 4 years in last place, including the two most recent, an acceptable outcome or one that gives anyone real faith that next year is gonna be the year the plan comes together?

Everyone always loves next year because it’s free and unwritten and full of possibilities. But what have we seen this year or last that makes it seem feasible Bloom would hit in 2024?

He’s got one of the most competitive jobs in the world. Barely over .500 after 4 years doesn’t seem sufficient to keep it. It’s not an ownership subterfuge or fall guy. Dude just kept not winning.

 

[JimD]

Get ready for Carrabis or someone else who carries John Henry's water to suggest that, 'You know, ownership didn't force Bloom to trade Mookie, that they would have been fine with keeping him for 2020 and giving it one more push to sign him to a big contract, but Chaim was really insistent on trading him'. Might as well get maximum use out of the obvious scapegoat.

 

[Yo La Tengo]

Jeff Passan on Sportsnet last night:

The problem with what Chaim Bloom faced—and listen, he has flaws as a general manager, there were things that he did bad and he did wrong, no doubt about that—but what he was asked to do was essentially rebuild the farm system and win at the same time while staying under the CBT threshold. Two of those things at once are pretty tough. All three of them, it's damn near impossible to do at the same time.

The bolded quote is well said and is the cause of confusion for me. I expected that the Front Office knew they could only reliably accomplish two of those things at a time and elected farm system and CBT threshold as the two targets while hoping to get lucky with some reclamation projects/injuries this year. Firing Bloom now feels like the Front Office has less of a plan than I assumed, which is unnerving moving forward.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Did we all forget the outrage the last time the sox publicly said they were having a bridge year?
I would have been fine with it. But the media? Fat chance.

IIRC, you called out many predictions by the media that had the Sox as a potential last place club with a win number in the high 70’s as being foolish and just designed to stir the pot, no?

 

[tims4wins]

Is 3 out of 4 years in last place, including the two most recent, an acceptable outcome or one that gives anyone real faith that next year is gonna be the year the plan comes together?

Everyone always loves next year because it’s free and unwritten and full of possibilities. But what have we seen this year or last that makes it seem feasible Bloom would hit in 2024?

He’s got one of the most competitive jobs in the world. Barely over .500 after 4 years doesn’t seem sufficient to keep it. It’s not an ownership subterfuge or fall guy. Dude just kept not winning.

This, 100%. There have been a lot of words written in this thread. But the bottom line is that, while I am encouraged by the farm system, I don't see why 2024 would be any different than 2022 or 2023.

Edit: or even 2021 for that matter. The common thread the last 3 years has been "they can make the playoffs if almost everything goes right". Which, given the market and the existence of 6 playoff teams, is garbage.

 

[Marciano490]

Also, I know some people have turned cold on the ownership group recently, but they’ve won more than any other group or franchise this century/since they took over.

Bloom won a playoff series his second year.

Again, looking at the facts on paper, I’d be more confident in Henry to know what he’s doing because he has a track record. Bloom is certainly good at identifying prospects. Maybe that should be his entire bailiwick.

 

[8slim]

I like this theory. I just don’t get why they do this during the season instead of waiting three weeks

When you’ve made the decision that someone’s tenure is going to be over it’s best to do it ASAP. Especially when that person is making personnel decisions that impact others.

In my own professional life I’ve seen senior execs on contracts who were allowed to hang on a year or more, despite leadership knowing that person was not going to be retained. And that person then fired people, launched new and poorly conceived projects, and the like. It infuriated me to no end that leadership didn’t jettison that exec as soon as they determined they were a dead person walking.

Once the Sox decided that Bloom had to go then it makes no sense to let him make decisions that affect players in the organization for another month.

 

[JM3]

That doesn’t answer the question. Ignore the theory that the ownership group decided to play Pravda and execute a rebuild without telling the fans and hoping they wouldn’t notice all the last place finishes so long as the magic bad word wasn’t used.

Is 3 out of 4 years in last place, including the two most recent, an acceptable outcome or one that gives anyone real faith that next year is gonna be the year the plan comes together?

Everyone always loves next year because it’s free and unwritten and full of possibilities. But what have we seen this year or last that makes it seem feasible Bloom would hit in 2024?

He’s got one of the most competitive jobs in the world. Barely over .500 after 4 years doesn’t seem sufficient to keep it. It’s not an ownership subterfuge or fall guy. Dude just kept not winning.

Because the Red Sox finally have sufficient cost controlled talent, very few holes, $80m to spend & a top 5 farm system.

Whether Bloom is the best guy to take them to the next level, or whether someone else is, either way, the team is very well set up to compete moving forward.

 

[Fishercat]

I will say I don't get the issue with the firing timeframe - it's the more humane thing in general and gives the team a chance to start moving in whatever direction it may need to. In the grand scheme, if the team thinks Bloom's talent evaluation at the pro level and decisiveness was the big issue - I imagine we'll see that with a similarly minded hire who might have more proficiency there (while Story wasn't the worst FA SS deal out there it's bad, the staff composition sucked, perfectly fine evidence there). If they swing back to Dombrowski-types I'm going to be doubtful of the rationale presented by the mouthpiece.

 

[BringBackMo]

Is the claim here that the DD era was not successful, because the “cupboards were bare” (ignoring the presence of Devers, Casas, Bello, Duran, Rafaela, Houck, etc. in those cupboards, or course). Because I thought the goal was “to win as many championships before you die”, “flags fly forever”, etc.

The Red Sox won 93, 93, 108, and 84 regular season games in those years. It wasn’t terrible .

I'm not sure how you can interpret such a claim from what I wrote. Dombrowski did an excellent job when he was here of winning a championship. The Red Sox, however, have been preaching sustainable competitiveness since Bloom was hired. They want to be like the Dodgers, Yankees, and a few other organizations. The point I was making is that the yo-yoing between stocking the cupboards and completely emptying them is not in alignment with the sustainable competitiveness model.

EDIT: I also just love this ongoing argument around here that because player X was drafted by GM Y, that player somehow is a product of GM Y. Baseball is not football and it is not basketball. Prospects take years to develop...and that's if an organization chooses to hold on to them rather than to trade them for established major leaguers. Is it actually your contetnion that Dombrowski somehow gets 100 percent of the credit for the development of Casa, Bello, Duran, Rafaela, and Houck as players for the Boston Red Sox, and Bloom gets none? Now *that* is a claim worth interrogating.

 

[8slim]

This, 100%. There have been a lot of words written in this thread. But the bottom line is that, while I am encouraged by the farm system, I don't see why 2024 would be any different than 2022 or 2023.

Edit: or even 2021 for that matter. The common thread the last 3 years has been "they can make the playoffs if almost everything goes right". Which, given the market and the existence of 6 playoff teams, is garbage.

Yep. I started getting nervous about 2024 when I began reading here recently that some folks were OK with largely running back this year’s starting rotation. Because signing FA starters is risky. I mean, of course it’s risky. Life is risky. But we know for sure that this year’s rotation ain’t good enough.

I don’t think Bloom is as risk averse as that. But man, that it was even a consideration was troubling.

 

[tims4wins]

Yep. I started getting nervous about 2024 when I began reading here recently that some folks were OK with largely running back this year’s starting rotation. Because signing FA starters is risky. I mean, of course it’s risky. Life is risky. But we know for sure that this year’s rotation ain’t good enough.

I don’t think Bloom is as risk averse as that. But man, that it was even a consideration was troubling.

There was also a LOT of discussion on this board this summer that 2024 isn't really the year, it's 2025. That drove me insane.

 

[Section15Box113]

Not at all shocked.

When Chaim was hired, I liked the move. What’s not to like? Young up-and-coming guy with experience building a farm system who, operating on a club with a tight budget, learned to piece together a successful team on a shoestring.

Just think what he’ll be able to do in a large market where he doesn’t have those financial constraints!

He’ll be able to do what Andrew Friedman did for the Dodgers! We’ll be a player development machine *while* competing for pennants and championships every year. Or so the thinking went.

And, given what we knew about Bloom’s background, it wasn’t wildly unreasonable.

The problem was he never was able to make that leap. He’s definitely done good work with the farm which will bear fruit over time, but he just hasn’t built MLB rosters that have remained competitive.

Perhaps Henry & Co. cheaped out on him, tying his hands. If so, that’s on them. But it takes the right skillset to go from a small market to a big market and execute the Friedman model. As time passed, I was increasingly concerned that Bloom didn’t have the ability to make that leap. Seems Henry, Kennedy, et. al. agree.

 

[8slim]

Because the Red Sox finally have sufficient cost controlled talent, very few holes, $80m to spend & a top 5 farm system.

Whether Bloom is the best guy to take them to the next level, or whether someone else is, either way, the team is very well set up to compete moving forward.

We have more holes than some want to acknowledge. I mean if we have very few holes, why are we on track to finish under .500?

I know, prospects. But that’s a crapshoot. Just like signing FAs is a crapshoot.

To my non-expert eye, we have at least 4 holes in the starting 9. And we have 3 giant holes in the starting rotation.

 

[Marciano490]

Because the Red Sox finally have sufficient cost controlled talent, very few holes, $80m to spend & a top 5 farm system.

Whether Bloom is the best guy to take them to the next level, or whether someone else is, either way, the team is very well set up to compete moving forward.

But those are facts, not a plan. Which starters can that $80 million sign? Do we have a legit shot at Yamamoto and/or Snell? Mayer has a .609 OPS at AA, will he be ready next year, or Teel?

We won 78 games last year. Let’s say 82-85 this year. Plans don’t include too much wishful thinking. So where do those extra 10-15 wins come from suddenly next year?

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

To my non-expert eye, we have at least 4 holes in the starting 9. And we have 3 giant holes in the starting rotation.

Just out of curiosity, what are you identifying as these 4 holes? Maybe 2B and DH and?

 

[JM3]

Yep. I started getting nervous about 2024 when I began reading here recently that some folks were OK with largely running back this year’s starting rotation. Because signing FA starters is risky. I mean, of course it’s risky. Life is risky. But we know for sure that this year’s rotation ain’t good enough.

I don’t think Bloom is as risk averse as that. But man, that it was even a consideration was troubling.

People say all kinds of things in this forum & on the internet at large that concern me about the future of humanity. Try not to internalize it.

 

[YTF]

When you’ve made the decision that someone’s tenure is going to be over it’s best to do it ASAP. Especially when that person is making personnel decisions that impact others.

In my own professional life I’ve seen senior execs on contracts who were allowed to hang on a year or more, despite leadership knowing that person was not going to be retained. And that person then fired people, launched new and poorly conceived projects, and the like. It infuriated me to no end that leadership didn’t jettison that exec as soon as they determined they were a dead person walking.

Once the Sox decided that Bloom had to go then it makes no sense to let him make decisions that affect players in the organization for another month.

This is 100% spot on. It's not like a factory job where you can just keep him on to operate a machine that will operate exactly the same way until and after you've found someone to replace him. A major aspect of Bloom's job at this point of the season is to begin charting the course for next season, especially given the performance of this year's team. If Bloom has been deemed a part of this season's failures and is not going to be here next year, you don't let him begin a process that will likely differ from what you will be expecting from his successor.

 

[Fishy1]

Just out of curiosity, what are you identifying as these 4 holes? Maybe 2B and DH and?

I was wondering the same thing. I think if you believe Urias and Story are going to bounce back (which I do), then those aren't holes but actually strengths. But those are big if's, I guess. Left, center, and right field are all covered amply if you don't move anyone. DH is the major hole, and if you move Casas, Yoshida or Devers there, then you have a hole (or an opportunity to make a splash in the free agent market).

 

[JM3]

We have more holes than some want to acknowledge. I mean if we have very few holes, why are we on track to finish under .500?

I know, prospects. But that’s a crapshoot. Just like signing FAs is a crapshoot.

To my non-expert eye, we have at least 4 holes in the starting 9. And we have 3 giant holes in the starting rotation.

Injuries, bad pitching, awful defense, bad coaching, team has given up, etc.

4 holes in the starting 9 seems like an aggressively unrealistic position.

& I think we have 2 holes in the rotation, & clearing up the defense issues will help a ton with the rest of it.

 

[8slim]

Just out of curiosity, what are you identifying as these 4 holes? Maybe 2B and DH and?

2B and possibly SS, and possibly two OF spots (and/or DH).

Maybe not all of those are holes in the literal sense. But they’re areas of concern where we either have no one or note to play there next year, or we’re gonna be hoping for a rebound/continuation of unexpected success.

I just can’t square the notion that we’re thisclose and have so few holes, with likely being on our way to our second straight sub-.500 finish.

 

[soxhop411]

IIRC, you called out many predictions by the media that had the Sox as a potential last place club with a win number in the high 70’s as being foolish and just designed to stir the pot, no?

Thats not what he is asking.
If the FO publicly states that XXXX season will be a bridge year, than expectations would be different.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2010/01/09/theo-epstein-builds-on-bridge-discussion/
Theos bridge year comments in 2010 caused so much outrage in the media that he had to clarify what he meant by “bridge year”

 

[tims4wins]

2B and possibly SS, and possibly two OF spots (and/or DH).

Maybe not all of those are holes in the literal sense. But they’re areas of concern where we either have no one or note to play there next year, or we’re gonna be hoping for a rebound/continuation of unexpected success.

I just can’t square the notion that we’re thisclose and have so few holes, with likely being on our way to our second straight sub-.500 finish.

The 2003 team was thisclose, and still brought in a #1 pitcher and a closer.

The 2023 team is like a canyon sized gap vs. 2003.

 

[BringBackMo]

Also, I know some people have turned cold on the ownership group recently, but they’ve won more than any other group or franchise this century/since they took over.

Bloom won a playoff series his second year.

Again, looking at the facts on paper, I’d be more confident in Henry to know what he’s doing because he has a track record. Bloom is certainly good at identifying prospects. Maybe that should be his entire bailiwick.

I just don't think this is a fair way of evaluating Bloom's tenure or work here. If he'd been hired to come in and blow it up, I think we can all agree that his fine work rebuilding the organization would have been conducted faster and with even more high-end talent. If he'd been told to come in an prioritize winning at the MLB level, I'd like to think we can all agree that he would have filled his rosters with more high-end talent. Instead he was told to do both.

Your premise assumes that Bloom was doing his level best to field the absolute best MLB roster he could each year, but just didn't have the skill to put together a winner. I don't think that's what was going on at all, and I think that's the crux of the Passan quote.

 

[JM3]

But those are facts, not a plan. Which starters can that $80 million sign? Do we have a legit shot at Yamamoto and/or Snell? Mayer has a .609 OPS at AA, will he be ready next year, or Teel?

We won 78 games last year. Let’s say 82-85 this year. Plans don’t include too much wishful thinking. So where do those extra 10-15 wins come from suddenly next year?

Healthy Story, less clustered pitching injuries, less DHs in the lineup on any given day, better managing & coaching. Continued improvement from young players.

I don't know what Bloom's exact plan would have been. I don't know what the new guy's plan is going to be.

But the fact that Mayer had a shoulder injury prior to even being called up to AA, & that many of the best prospects may not be awesome in the majors until '25 isn't a huge problem. It's part of the process.

But we're in a really good place, & there are only a few ways to make it go off the rails over the next few years. I hope ownership does not choose one of those few paths.

 

[8slim]

The 2003 team was thisclose, and still brought in a #1 pitcher and a closer.

The 2023 team is like a canyon sized gap vs. 2003.

But trades and FA signings are risky! I mean, I could step off this street corner and get hit by a b

 

[Rovin Romine]

Perhaps this is so, and I'm with you on what you hope for, to avoid the organizational mood swings, which are going on 12 years now post Theo. Surely they can find someone who has the capacity to balance building a farm while also acquiring top line ML talent to build a championship caliber team. I mean - it really can't be so impossible that you have to keep swinging through "types" of GMs/CBOs (whatever), can it?

I'll regurgitate an earlier post on this, posted below this one. TLDR is that there are not "grow" types and "spend" types of GMs. Cherrington created a talent gap in the org that hit in 2020. That gap, combined with various FA signings led to an expensive club with key players rocketing toward FA.

So no.

You can't:

1) shed albatross contracts (Sale, Price) - without giving up $ or talent.​

2) easily sign FAs or extend players - because you have a cap and albatross contracts.​

3) acquire young, cost-controlled ML players - without trading out of a small stockpile of prospects.​

4) grow the prospect pool overnight.​

***
Earlier post:

There's this weird memeish suggestion that keeps floating around that Cherrington was this great minor league developer that DD sort of cashed in on early. That's 100% not the case.

-Theo left a pretty amazingly stocked farm system with the 2011 draft.​

​

-Cherrington's drafts were awful to "meh" though he did add a few key players (Devers). His main plus (vis a vis the farm system) was not trading away good players.​

​

-DD traded mostly out of Cherrington's good to meh picks for guys like Sale. DD also drafted/signed well and restocked the system.​

I don't think you can really "spend" out of the system to acquire Pomeranz and Sale level talent for the 2016-19 GFIN bubble, while at the same time stocking the system with equally developed talent. Just the nature of the beast.

But it's sort of a fantasy that DD somehow shoveled actual talent out the door for ephemeral gains. I mean, do we really want a 2016-21 team with Yoan Moncada on it? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moncayo01.shtml Michael Kopech? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kopecmi01.shtml

They're not bad players, but Sale was the key to the 2018 WS victory - they would not have been.

For drafts Theo was 2004-2011, Cherrington was 2012-2015, and DD 2016-2019. I added notable international signings with an underline. So:

DD:
2019- Cannon, Lugo, Song, Murphy.
2018- Casas, Duran. Rafaela, Bello.
2017- Houck, Crawford. Hector Velazquez.
2016- Groome, Dalbec. Mata.

BC:
2015- Benintendi, Allen, Poyner
2014- Chavis, Kopech, Travis, Beeks. Moncada, Rusney, Espinosa, Bazardo.
2013- Ball, Stankiewicz, Denney, Dubon. Devers, Darwinzon.
2012- Marrero, Johnson, Light, Maddox, Buttrey

TE:
2011- Barnes, Swihart, Owens, JBJ, Jerez, Ramirez, Mookie, Travis Shaw. Margot.
2010- Brentz, Workman.
2009- Kelley, Hazelbaker. Iglesias, Bogaerts.
2008- Weiland, Federowicz, Vazquez. Tazawa.
2007- Hagadone, Rizzo, Middlebrooks.

 

[tims4wins]

But trades and FA signings are risky! I mean, I could step off this street corner and get hit by a b

Slow clap

 

[Marciano490]

I just don't think this is a fair way of evaluating Bloom's tenure or work here. If he'd been hired to come in and blow it up, I think we can all agree that his fine work rebuilding the organization would have been conducted faster and with even more high-end talent. If he'd been told to come in an prioritize winning at the MLB level, I'd like to think we can all agree that he would have filled his rosters with more high-end talent. Instead he was told to do both.

Your premise assumes that Bloom was doing his level best to field the absolute best MLB roster he could each year, but just didn't have the skill to put together a winner. I don't think that's what was going on at all, and I think that's the crux of the Passan quote.

I guess this is where I get lost. It’s not that he didn’t prioritize winning at the MLB level, it’s that he didn’t really win at all at the MLB level. Looking at the past 20 years, we had a terrible 2012 followed by a WS 2013, then a bad ‘14 and ‘15 followed by a first place finish under DD in his first or second year.

Looking at the track records for ownership and Bloom, why do people assume it’s ownership with the unreasonable goal and not Bloom who failed to do an admittedly really but not impossible or unprecedented job?

Is there another 4 year stretch of .500 ball under Henry?

 

[Beale13]

The bolded quote is well said and is the cause of confusion for me. I expected that the Front Office knew they could only reliably accomplish two of those things at a time and elected farm system and CBT threshold as the two targets while hoping to get lucky with some reclamation projects/injuries this year. Firing Bloom now feels like the Front Office has less of a plan than I assumed, which is unnerving moving forward.

The slight fault in Passan's quote is that accomplishing two of those three things is only difficult if one of the two things is winning at the major league level. If the two things are building the farm system and cutting payroll, all you really have to do is lose at the major league level and draft well, along with getting meaningful prospects in return for your pricier assets. Any decent GM should be able to succeed under those terms, but it's the winning while doing either of those two things, never mind both, that's so brutally tough.

I think the plan was always to rebuild, and to do just enough to keep the big league team in barely enough contention to prevent a revolt from a fanbase that has absolutely no taste or patience for any sort of rebuild. I think Bloom was pretty damn successful at functioning under those terms, and while he certainly wasn't perfect, I think he did more than enough to earn one more year to see the plan through. If the front office simply doesn't trust Bloom to be the guy to make the go-for-it moves, so be it, as long as the guy they bring in doesn't in three years put them in the same hole they were in when Bloom was brought in.

I don't think this move necessarily signals an abandonment of a plan to get us on a track of sustained success like the Dodgers or Braves or Astros.

 

[chawson]

So, if when Bloom had been hired, he came out and said, “I have a plan, it involves 3 last place finishes, including ones in years 3 and 4, but in year 5 there’s a plan - a really good plan! - to suddenly compete” (and can anyone here squint and see that plan unless it involves immaculate health or the ability to sign the phenom pitcher everyone else is going after), would people sign up for that?

So you don't think we should blame him for starting the pandemic too?

But trades and FA signings are risky! I mean, I could step off this street corner and get hit by a b

What are the differences between these two scenarios, do you think?

A) Paying 27-year-old Tanner Houck a pre-arb salary to pitch at a 3.82 xFIP (which was what he was doing pre-injury—3.98 xFIP for 2023 as a whole). You have him under control until 2028, which spans the time that your young hitting prospects will acclimate to the majors.

or

B) Paying 34-year-old Chris Bassitt $21 million a year to pitch at a 4.39 xFIP through 2025. His presence in the rotation, while stable, also comes at the opportunity cost of giving another of your young pitchers experience at the major-league level.

(I chose Bassitt because he's been a reasonably productive FA starter—not a disaster like Rodón or Ray, and not an ace like Eflin or Gausman.)

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

Also, I know some people have turned cold on the ownership group recently, but they’ve won more than any other group or franchise this century/since they took over.

Bloom won a playoff series his second year.

Again, looking at the facts on paper, I’d be more confident in Henry to know what he’s doing because he has a track record. Bloom is certainly good at identifying prospects. Maybe that should be his entire bailiwick.

Ownership is looking at their fifth last place finish in the last ten years. Yes, they won three straight division titles and a WS during that time as well, but this organization has been wildly inconsistent for more than a decade. I believed they had a plan when they first bought the team. Now they seem to just throw shit at the wall and see if it sticks for a brief time.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Bassit has thrown 178 innings and made 30 starts; Houck is at 93 and 18. Their rate stats are similar- but their production really isn’t.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

The whole Xander thing involves a little bit of obfuscation. I haven't seen people skewer the Red Sox for not giving him the San Diego deal, any criticism on that front has been in terms of not locking him in earlier on lesser money (that he presumably would have taken). There are a lot of conditionals involved in that criticism for sure, but I think Passan is defending something that I don't think people actually had a problem with.

Exactly. It's not a ridiculous statement to say that Padres overpaid Xander by $100 mil relative to what the Red Sox could have signed him for a year earlier.

 

[JM3]

That reminds me, the other thing that was really clear from the management of the roster was that they were not trying to maximize this year - they were trying to protect the future.

They called up Caleb Hamilton & Jorge Alfaro rather than giving Ronaldo Hernandez a chance when he is clearly a much better player than Hamilton & almost certainly better than Alfaro. & it's not because they didn't know that, it's because they were prioritizing the future over this year.

Same thing with the bullpen all year... bringing up fungible guys rather than any pitcher who has a chance to be part of the future & that they would have to risk losing if they took them off the 40.

They easily could have won 2 or 3 more games this year just doing things like that. It was clear based on all those moves that they were not prioritizing winning this year, which was frustrating to me, but I assume would not be how they operated next year as their window opened.

 

[JM3]

Exactly. It's not a ridiculous statement to say that Padres overpaid Xander by $100 mil relative to what the Red Sox could have signed him for a year earlier.

& it's also not a ridiculous statement that Scott Boras has a pretty good feel for the market & would have advised X that he would be costing himself upward of $60m by accepting such an offer & X would make the wise decision & listen to his agent & wait for free agency.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Exactly. It's not a ridiculous statement to say that Padres overpaid Xander by $100 mil relative to what the Red Sox could have signed him for a year earlier.

The criticisms of Bloom haven't necessarily come from who he has let go, save Wacha: generally the X deal is seen as a massive overpay and everyone knows that Mookie was traded upon ownership's demand.

The real issue has been the replacements and the returns. We've all seen my takes on Story as as SS replacement for X, and the players received in the Betts deal have not been cornerstone types that were necessary to make the Mookie trade make on-field sense.

Bloom is good at building a farm system but below average at identifying quality major league talent. While it's a hard job to do both, that is the job. I strongly suspect Bloom will find another job in baseball as director of a farm system and be highly regarded in that role. But I very highly doubt he becomes a GM or in charge of overall baseball ops again.

 

[8slim]

So you don't think we should blame him for starting the pandemic too?



What are the differences between these two scenarios, do you think?

A) Paying 27-year-old Tanner Houck a pre-arb salary to pitch at a 3.82 xFIP (which was what he was doing pre-injury—3.98 xFIP for 2023 as a whole). You have him under control until 2028, which spans the time that your young hitting prospects will acclimate to the majors.

or

B) Paying 34-year-old Chris Bassitt $21 million a year to pitch at a 4.39 xFIP through 2025. His presence in the rotation, while stable, also comes at the opportunity cost of giving another of your young pitchers experience at the major-league level.

(I chose Bassitt because he's been a reasonably productive FA starter—not a disaster like Rodón or Ray, and not an ace like Eflin or Gausman.)

The difference is that, absent something alarming in Bassitt’s medical records, we could probably pencil him in for 175+ reasonably effective innings the next couple seasons.

Houck? Who the heck knows?

And it doesn’t need to be an either/or. We got at least 3 spots to fill in the rotation. Houck can still be slotted in at #5 even if we sign 2 FAs this off-season.

*edit* And “opportunity cost”? Who do we have in the high minors that’s banging down the door to be a major league starter?

 

[Remagellan]

Ownership is looking at their fifth last place finish in the last ten years. Yes, they won three straight division titles and a WS during that time as well, but this organization has been wildly inconsistent for more than a decade. I believed they had a plan when they first bought the team. Now they seem to just throw shit at the wall and see if it sticks for a brief time.

Sure, but assuming the Sox do not win the World Series next season, that will be the longest drought between championships since this ownership took over the team. They have a long way to go before my faith in them wavers.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

But I very highly doubt he becomes a GM or in charge of overall baseball ops again.

I doubt that. He’ll have some team believe that he was well on his way to accomplishing his goals with the team until Henry/Werner lost patience and fired him prematurely.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I doubt that. He’ll have some team believe that he was well on his way to accomplishing his goals with the team until Henry/Werner lost patience and fired him prematurely.

I don't know. If the veracity of the reports yesterday saying he was difficult to trade with is high, I'm not sure he gets another job overseeing the entire operations of a club.

 

[BaseballJones]

I guess this is where I get lost. It’s not that he didn’t prioritize winning at the MLB level, it’s that he didn’t really win at all at the MLB level. Looking at the past 20 years, we had a terrible 2012 followed by a WS 2013, then a bad ‘14 and ‘15 followed by a first place finish under DD in his first or second year.

Looking at the track records for ownership and Bloom, why do people assume it’s ownership with the unreasonable goal and not Bloom who failed to do an admittedly really but not impossible or unprecedented job?

Is there another 4 year stretch of .500 ball under Henry?

No. The only one that comes close is the stretch from 2012-2015.

2012: 69-93
2013: 97-65
2014: 71-91
2015: 78-84

So in two of those years, they were objectively TERRIBLE. Like way, way, way worse than what they have been the past two years. In one of those years they were bad but not absolutely monstrously so. And of course, one of those years they went bonkers and won the WS.

Or to play the Sesame Street game: one of these things is not like the others.

But that's as bad a four year stretch as Henry has had here. And it included a WS title. So this present 4-year stretch is by far the worst, when all is taken into account, the Sox have had in the Henry era.

 

[BringBackMo]

I guess this is where I get lost. It’s not that he didn’t prioritize winning at the MLB level, it’s that he didn’t really win at all at the MLB level. Looking at the past 20 years, we had a terrible 2012 followed by a WS 2013, then a bad ‘14 and ‘15 followed by a first place finish under DD in his first or second year.

Looking at the track records for ownership and Bloom, why do people assume it’s ownership with the unreasonable goal and not Bloom who failed to do an admittedly really but not impossible or unprecedented job?

Is there another 4 year stretch of .500 ball under Henry?

If we're looking at track records, then no I don't expect such a stretch. Looking at track records suggests they may hire a Dombrowski 2.0 and have him shoot for the moon. They can go over the cap for the next two seasons without triggering the most severe sanctions, and they have a lot of in-demand prospects that they can trade. My fear is that the farm system gets emptied out again and we're right back where we started...though perhaps with a championship to show for it! To be clear: I doubt there has been a bigger cheerleader of this ownership group than I am/have been. I have defended the group over and over and over. And I DO think they're smart and creative enough to have learned from the past. But I think some concern is now warranted.

 

[soxhop411]

View: https://twitter.com/IanMBrowne/status/1702694676640247917


Bloom out with a statement

A statement from former Red Sox chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom: I will always be grateful to John, Tom, Mike, and Sam for trusting me to lead the Red Sox baseball operations department. Every day, I gave my teammates and this organization everything I had, and I never took a second for granted. Great things are now in store for the Red Sox. And while I’m sad that I won’t be watching them from the same chair, I will still be very proud. Red Sox fans, you are the best. Your passion fueled me daily, and added meaning to everything I’ve done here. You very much deserve more championships. And you will get them.

 

[chawson]

Bassit has thrown 178 innings and made 30 starts; Houck is at 93 and 18. Their rate stats are similar- but their production really isn’t.

Houck is 1.3 bWAR in 93 innings. Bassitt has 1.7 bWAR in 178 innings.

One of them did get hit in the face with a line drive though.

 

[JM3]

I don't know. If the veracity of the reports yesterday saying he was difficult to trade with is high, I'm not sure he gets another job overseeing the entire operations of a club.

He took the minor league system from last to top 5 (3rd per Fangraphs) while not tanking & not really trading away Major League talent.

He would be a really good fit on a team that needs a hard reset & doesn't need to serve multiple masters, & I have a feeling he'd feel much freer to make borderline trades in those situations & be seen as easier to deal with as the goals are different.

By all media accounts, he was great to work with, so it doesn't seem like it's a personality issue.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He took the minor league system from last to top 5 (3rd per Fangraphs) while not tanking & not really trading away Major League talent.

He would be a really good fit on a team that needs a hard reset & doesn't need to serve multiple masters, & I have a feeling he'd feel much freer to make borderline trades in those situations & be seen as easier to deal with as the goals are different.

By all media accounts, he was great to work with, so it doesn't seem like it's a personality issue.

If I were an owner I'd hire him as Farm System Director in a cocaine heartbeat.

But I wouldn't give him further control than that.

 

[JM3]

If I were an owner I'd hire him as Farm System Director in a cocaine heartbeat.

But I wouldn't give him further control than that.

I understand, & I think that's based on a general disagreement about the quality of the job he's done here & the difficulty of the position he inherited. Which is fine.

I think he'll get another lead job, though.

 

[Auger34]

We don't know what Bloom was telling Henry as far as the expectations of the team.

IF he was telling ownership that he thought they had the juice to be competitive this year, which it seems like he was given his statements to the media, then he ended up digging his own grave.

IF he was telling ownership that he thought he was hamstrung by bad contracts, specifically Sale's, then the decision to not get rid of Sale's contract due to haggling over prospects was a bad decision. (If that reporting is true). If this year was all about 2024 and everyone knew the odds were low to actually do damage in the playoffs, then he should have sold Paxton off to get prospects/lottery tickets.
It's possible that Bloom sold ownership on the idea of getting injured players back was actually the real deadline moves and that they would all be impactful and help the Red Sox make a playoff push...that was a failure

Maybe each individual move made by Bloom made sense but as a whole it was very hard to discern an overall plan. If the plan was to cut cost..then he made a mistake not getting under the CBT at the trade deadline last year.

He seemed to try to straddle both lines, which is an admirable idea and, honestly, may have been the right plan. However, when the results are mediocre, you have to show your bosses a vision/plan and what you did to accomplish that...and I don't think Chaim was able to do that.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

By all media accounts, he was great to work with, so it doesn't seem like it's a personality issue.

In his organization. By a lot of media accounts he was a pain in the ass to deal with when it comes to other GMs and player agents. And not the good kind of pain in the ass, the one that once a deal is essentially agreed upon is like, "Uhhhh, actually can I have this guy instead?"

I'm with SJH here, Bloom isn't dumb and he knows what he knows. But he's not a wheeler-and-a-dealer and that's okay, not everyone is entitled to the job of the President of Baseball Ops. Some can be great Farm Systems Directors, which is a really cool job. Bloom was great at looking down the road, unfortunately he wasn't awesome at seeing the Mack truck coming right towards him.