Shelterdog said:
I saw that happen too, but I thought there was a full drive with Cannon at LT at one point. I might just be wrong.
The new look OL
- Thread starter Super Nomario
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I saw that happen too, but I thought there was a full drive with Cannon at LT at one point. I might just be wrong.
As was mentioned with the Mankins trade, it's not so much about who replaces Mankins, it's about who replaces the guy who replaces Mankins.
I'd like to see them just play Solder at LT and leave him there. He's the key to the line, when he plays well they've been good enough and Brady can work around the interior fuckups. When left tackle sucks, negative plays abound. He's been inconsistent this year but he's the best shot at getting good LT work.
Cannon seemed awful out there; in addition to the failed blocks, there was the costly false start on 1st down
Solder seemed fine but the Jets seemed to flood his area so rushers were getting thru from that side but thru no fault of Solder (eg the first sack of the game).
I have to give Rex credit for a great scheme with multiple blitzers attacking a single blocker. Communication by the Pats was not great (eg the sack where two players confused Gronk/Vereen and both rushers got thru)
Solder seemed fine but the Jets seemed to flood his area so rushers were getting thru from that side but thru no fault of Solder (eg the first sack of the game).
I have to give Rex credit for a great scheme with multiple blitzers attacking a single blocker. Communication by the Pats was not great (eg the sack where two players confused Gronk/Vereen and both rushers got thru)
For O-line scouts, two of the top guard prospects will play for LSU Dec 30 against Notre Dame in the Music City Bowl--Vadal Alexander 6'6" 342 and La'el Collins 6'5" 321.
Two more for FSU in the Rose Bowl--Tre Jackson 6'4" 330 and Josui Matias 6'6" 325.
The fifth for the Tide in the Sugar--Arie Kouandjio 6'5" 315.
Two more for FSU in the Rose Bowl--Tre Jackson 6'4" 330 and Josui Matias 6'6" 325.
The fifth for the Tide in the Sugar--Arie Kouandjio 6'5" 315.
It's too bad there isn't a tough, bearded, 5x All-Pro guard on the team. They could use a guy like that.
I think John Hannah was available this year, he's a ten time all pro so probably a bigger upgrade.
Seriously, yeah, a league average guard would be nice to have, but Id probably rather have Tim Wright, a draft pick, Ayers, Branch, and Casillas plus whatever cap space is left over.
Seriously, yeah, a league average guard would be nice to have, but Id probably rather have Tim Wright, a draft pick, Ayers, Branch, and Casillas plus whatever cap space is left over.
Mankins has been pretty good this year. He's not in his prime but still better than average, and much better than any guard on the roster.
Dogman2 said:
He has been good and has played more snaps than Connolly, Wendell, Stork, Cannon, Kline, Devey, and Fleming. Honestly Dog it's pretty obvious you're holing onto reports from week one. He's been good and healthy since.
Tony C said:
Links? From what I've seen he's been good and is doing on a surrounding O line that is falling apart. Anytime the Bucs are on Redzone I'm watching Mankins. He's actually exceeded my expectations which can't be easy in that situation.
Stitch01 said:
Haha what? Unless you're counting Vollmer as a guard this is hard to take seriously.
Well, yeah, you think Connolly and Wendell are among the worst guards in the league and Mankins is a very good player. I think Connolly and Wendell are a modestly below average guard pairing and Mankins is league average. Since we disagree a lot on how good the players are, not surprising we disagree on the trade.
PFF has Mankins as the 19th best guard in the league by total value with Wendell at 31 and Connolly at 74. They have Mankins as pretty good at pass blocking ignoring the subjective PFF numbers allowing 2 sacks, 5 hits, and 13 hurries all year.
Football Outsiders has TB as one of the worst teams in the league at trying to run up the middle (Pats are bad as well)
So yeah, I think Mankins is the best guard on the roster, but Id rather have Tim Wright, Ayers, Casillas, Branch, and the 4th rounder plus the remaining cap space. YMMV.
PFF has Mankins as the 19th best guard in the league by total value with Wendell at 31 and Connolly at 74. They have Mankins as pretty good at pass blocking ignoring the subjective PFF numbers allowing 2 sacks, 5 hits, and 13 hurries all year.
Football Outsiders has TB as one of the worst teams in the league at trying to run up the middle (Pats are bad as well)
So yeah, I think Mankins is the best guard on the roster, but Id rather have Tim Wright, Ayers, Casillas, Branch, and the 4th rounder plus the remaining cap space. YMMV.
Like others, I've seen far more that says Mankins has been a disappointment than that he's been an impact player. Curious what the contrary case is, exactly.
FWIW, PFF rates Patriots' LG as #74 out of 79 guards, Tampa's LG at #19. (Joel Bitonio #2, alas.)
Spelunker said:
I don't think he'd be the best guard but we should ask Football Central.
Doesn't it seem Connolly has been injured culminating with his scratch? The O line had gelled for a while until the last several games. Getting him right for the playoffs seems like priority number one. Fleming being available as the 6th guy would also be great.
But it seems both G and T are gonna be draft targets. Unless Devey learns how to play football.
He'd be a terror back there. However seems a little of a loose cannon, I'd worry about his gap discipline and personal fouls. You know he'd be good for a couple late hits out of bounds.soxfan121 said:
Exactly right. This Ravens game is going to hinge almost totally on the effectiveness of the offensive line, both in finding some room for the running game and in providing a pocket for TB. The pressure will be on.Harry Hooper said:
Spread them out, and go hurry up; check the Chargers tape this season. Above all, protect the football, be patient and prepare to win an ugly game.
This is really on McDaniels and BB; I don't believe in asking a unit to deliver more than what it probably is capable of. I'd put more weight on Brady and the receivers using their heads, being where they are supposed to and taking what's there.
Can you give us two seconds and prevent Ngata from setting up a lunch table in the backfield?
This is really on McDaniels and BB; I don't believe in asking a unit to deliver more than what it probably is capable of. I'd put more weight on Brady and the receivers using their heads, being where they are supposed to and taking what's there.
Can you give us two seconds and prevent Ngata from setting up a lunch table in the backfield?
dcmissle said:
Yep, spreading them out and going hurry up, that to me would be the best way to expose the Ravens secondary. Online has to do their job obviously, but as you said Brady can certainly help getting the ball out fast and the hurry up usually causes defensive issues.
Bump to acknowledge what a fantastic job this group did in the playoffs, especially in the passing game.
In particular, Solder and Vollmer were absolute walls on the outside. Between the two of them, over the course of 145 pass protecting snaps in the playoffs (108 of which came against the Ravens and Seahawks, two teams with very good edge players), they gave up 1 sack, 2 other QB hits, and 9 other QB hurries (per PFF's charting). That's exceptional, even for a team that gets the ball out quickly and has a QB with very good pocket presence.
Solder's turnaround is particularly notable. I have a hard time imagining that he gets cut, as has been discussed somewhat in the past, given the key role he played in our offensive success.
In particular, Solder and Vollmer were absolute walls on the outside. Between the two of them, over the course of 145 pass protecting snaps in the playoffs (108 of which came against the Ravens and Seahawks, two teams with very good edge players), they gave up 1 sack, 2 other QB hits, and 9 other QB hurries (per PFF's charting). That's exceptional, even for a team that gets the ball out quickly and has a QB with very good pocket presence.
Solder's turnaround is particularly notable. I have a hard time imagining that he gets cut, as has been discussed somewhat in the past, given the key role he played in our offensive success.
Pxer said:
I have a theory that our O-line is better in run blocking than appears but that our running game this year, especially late in the season, was really handicapped by our lack of a multipurpose back whose inclusion on the field could sufficiently keep defenses guessing. Vereen's effectiveness as a runner seemed to really decline over the course of the year, to the point where he only got six carries total in the playoffs and didn't do much with them. Meanwhile, we hardly ever threw to any of our other backs all year (Blount caught zero passes in the playoffs). I'm not second guessing McDaniels, as his performance overall was simply amazing, but I think he was forced to turn the offense into a fairly predictable machine from a run/pass standpoint. When Vereen was in the game, we were almost always throwing and he wasn't a good enough runner to hurt defenses on the few occasions we ran in order to keep the other team honest. When Blount was in the game, we were running like ~70-80% of the time, often out of power packages (extra OL, FB, or both), and when we did decide to throw out of those formations we were very constricted because not only did we already have suboptimal pass catchers on the field (from having an extra OL or Develin), but the RB was exclusively helping out in pass protection or just a decoy in the flat, which makes the defense's life even easier and allows them to cheat run even more. We could still run the ball against very weak defenses who knew the run was coming but simply couldn't match up with our power personnel package (ie, Indy). Against stronger defenses, however, the predictability of our running game made things really hard.
While I'm generally a big believer in the "running backs are fungible, don't spend a ton of resources on them" idea, I hope the Patriots look at a two-way back somewhere in the middle rounds (3-5) of this upcoming draft.
Think that was the plan with James White, sort of hard to say if he's a bust already or they still think there is something there.
On topic, Mankins trade outcome turned out to be pretty great. Still won the title and might help keep 24 here in '15 and beyond.
On topic, Mankins trade outcome turned out to be pretty great. Still won the title and might help keep 24 here in '15 and beyond.
Cross-posting from the Wilfork thread - I don't see Solder's figure coming down significantly. $7 MM next year makes Solder the 15th-highest-paid LT, which sounds about right. I would think they'd work out something long-term that would probably bring down the 2015 cap hit a bit, but I would think the AAV of the deal would be more likely to be greater than $7 MM than less.dynomite said:
Super Nomario said:
Completely agreed. There's no way Solder's number comes down, unless it's with an extension, and that's just deferring the money down the line. I do hope the Patriots extend him, if only for a few more seasons. Continuity is a good thing to have.
Good story on the O-line and it's first year coach
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/02/13/new-england-patriots-offensive-line-dave-deguglielmo/
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/02/13/new-england-patriots-offensive-line-dave-deguglielmo/
Great stuff. Stuff that stood out to me:E5 Yaz said:
- Belichick had never met Googe before hiring him.
- Deguglielmo had no idea Mankins would be traded and hadn't seriously tried out anyone else at LG.
- Tom Brady is a "line coach's dream come true" for his pocket presence and ability to handle protections.
- "efore selecting Stork, the Patriots called Seminoles offensive line coach Rick Trickett, who is something like college football’s version of Scarnecchia. 'He said, "I put my reputation on this guy,"' DeGuglielmo recalled. 'That was enough for me and for Coach.'"
[*]"Nobody in the Patriots' building thought Ryan Wendell ... could play guard." This makes me wonder if they did have a real plan for the OL after dealing Mankins, or just kind of figured they had enough bodies to make something work. It was risky, but obviously it didn't cost them too much.
[*]Googe is very complimentary of Solder, but hints that Solder struggles with confidence at times. He also suggests that Connolly at LG helped settle Solder, which is an idea I've been largely dismissive of but others here have championed.
"DeGuglielmo (pronounced day-ghoul-YELL-mo)"
That's disappointing. I'm going to keep saying "da googly elmo" in my head anyways.
That's disappointing. I'm going to keep saying "da googly elmo" in my head anyways.
Based on googley oogly ermo not having any clue Mankins was being traded and that nobody else took reps at LG is a pretty clear indication that BB didn't have a plan and basically just believed it would work out.
I thought this was a rather unlikely scenario if you go back to the start of this thread but clearly it was the case.
I thought this was a rather unlikely scenario if you go back to the start of this thread but clearly it was the case.
I mean, I read the whole thing. I don't know why you would assume that I only read part of it.There is no Rev said:
I find it unconvincing that Bill had a master plan that involved not telling his OL coach he was maybe losing his LG and also included preparing no other G's at LG in the pre-season. Marcus Cannon started at LG in Miami (to the surprise of many such as Reiss) and took zero snaps there in pre-season. That was the plan? To what, maximize all perceived negotiating leverage at the cost of having shitty guard play to start the season (potentially costing the Pats a game)? I'm sorry but the most prepared coach in the NFL doesn't go out of his way to keep his opening day starter from getting reps throughout a healthy pre-season. Not gonna happen.
To me this points to the Mankins trade being more unexpected than we thought. I'm sure Bill was confident he'd figure it out based on his talent and depth but he didn't know the answer at the time of the trade. That's why he basically continued to rotate guys like pre-season.
amarshal2 said:
It was a joke.
My point, though, was that equating an effective ability to respond to contingency with having no plan at all is a ind of contrived dualism--it doesn't have to be they had no plan because the first thing didn't work out.
As much as anything, it seems like, as DDB posted elsewhere, part of Belichick's "Do you job" program has an inverse purpose, which is to allow people to not focus on that which they don't need to so they can maintain bandwidth for that which they actually need to take care of. In other words, that other people didn't know what was going on may mean just that--they didn't know--and not much more.
If you count "we'll figure it out" as having a plan then sure, he had A plan. If you re-read my first post I didn't argue otherwise. I'm also not saying that Cannon failing is evidence of having no plan. I'm saying that not telling your OL coach to prepare your actual week 1 starter at LG or your backup to your actual week 1 starter at LG for even a single snap is evidence that trading Mankins wasn't at all the plan throughout pre-season. I find this very surprising as I would have thought it was something he was considering all along and that he would have prepared for the possibility in practice or preseason.There is no Rev said:
It was a joke.
My point, though, was that equating an effective ability to respond to contingency with having no plan at all is a ind of contrived dualism--it doesn't have to be they had no plan because the first thing didn't work out.
As much as anything, it seems like, as DDB posted elsewhere, part of Belichick's "Do you job" program has an inverse purpose, which is to allow people to not focus on that which they don't need to so they can maintain bandwidth for that which they actually need to take care of. In other words, that other people didn't know what was going on may mean just that--they didn't know--and not much more.
Edit: I love do your job and I thought DDB's post summed it up nicely. I don't think this was a scenario where he was trying to take the pressure off and enable his people to focus.
Edit2: and I realize that the point I made in this post wasn't perfectly clear in my first post. I've learned that posting from my phone when my wife wants me to put my phone down leads to bad outcomes (people misinterpreting me and vice versa). No more.
Bill's philosophy is that every single player on the roster should be prepared to play at all times. This also means that coaches should be equally prepared.
The issue is not whether trading Mankins was 'the plan'. Bill is always considering his options. He perceived Mankins' cost as outweighing his combined short and long term value to the team, so he attempted to renegotiate. Should he tell position coaches each time there's a chance a player leaves? What would that accomplish? How would that help the coach do his job? Like I said, as far as Bill is concerned the coaches should be acting as if the players on the roster will play at some point, and perhaps the very next snap.
Roster construction has always been fluid under Bill. I read Googs' comments as betraying how new he was to the team and how he clearly had not internalized how Bill operates by September. Ie, 'wow Bill wasn't kidding', not 'Bill is aimless and doesn't keep coaches appropriately apprised of potential personnel changes'.
Of course, whether - given the unproven depth (Kline, Devey, Wendell new at guard, Cannon floating between G and T, Stork hurt) - the trade carried some unacceptable risks at the time it was made is a fair question.
The issue is not whether trading Mankins was 'the plan'. Bill is always considering his options. He perceived Mankins' cost as outweighing his combined short and long term value to the team, so he attempted to renegotiate. Should he tell position coaches each time there's a chance a player leaves? What would that accomplish? How would that help the coach do his job? Like I said, as far as Bill is concerned the coaches should be acting as if the players on the roster will play at some point, and perhaps the very next snap.
Roster construction has always been fluid under Bill. I read Googs' comments as betraying how new he was to the team and how he clearly had not internalized how Bill operates by September. Ie, 'wow Bill wasn't kidding', not 'Bill is aimless and doesn't keep coaches appropriately apprised of potential personnel changes'.
Of course, whether - given the unproven depth (Kline, Devey, Wendell new at guard, Cannon floating between G and T, Stork hurt) - the trade carried some unacceptable risks at the time it was made is a fair question.
Mystic Merlin said:
It's still a bit of an odd story. If you want to get Mankins to re-work his deal, then working out other guys at his position would seem to be a natural move. You want to show Mankins that you have the leverage of other guys to man the spot if he doesn't agree to modification.
Is it possible that the trade with Tampa came about very quickly? This might explain the lack of contingency plan in advance and, to a lesser extent, the lack of communication with Googs.