The new look OL

Tony C · Nov 2, 2014

I'd say the OL answered some more questions in a positive way today. Yes, the run game didn't get much push and Brady definitely suffered a few hits. But I don't think you could ask for much more against the much touted Broncos d-line and their pass rush And, specifically, Stork more than held his own.

JerBear · Nov 3, 2014

Super Nomario said:
PFF had Solder and Vollmer going wire-to-wire last night, with none of the Cannon rotation we'd been seeing.

Vollmer's agent must be bitching about his playing time incentive.

Van Everyman · Nov 5, 2014

Good piece by Volin today on the OL resurgence. I found this to be interesting:

After having several years of stability on the line — Nate Solder at left tackle, Mankins at left guard, Ryan Wendell at center, Dan Connolly at right guard, and Sebastian Vollmer at right tackle — the Patriots wanted their linemen to stop being so comfortable playing next to the same guy.

So they have heavily rotated guys throughout training camp and into the regular season. Sunday’s game against the Broncos was the first time that all five offensive linemen played 100 percent of the snaps. Before that, Cannon would substitute in for both tackles for a handful of snaps. Or injuries prevented Connolly and Bryan Stork from playing.

“In the beginning, maybe that was a little bit unnerving to maybe the tackles,” DeGuglielmo said. “Well now they know that’s how it is every day, every play in practice, could be a new guy standing there.”

“Our guys are now at a point where it doesn’t matter who’s in there. They’ll operate.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/04/patriots-offensive-line-rode-out-storm-nicely/Z2gHxTVWr975NdJKBa48nK/story.html?hootPostID=6a7fa442fc99ed027dafaa7ba685618f

Pretty risky gambit, but perhaps one that allows the team to better weather the usual attrition that occurs on the line and gives them more flexibility for the long term.

nazz45 · Nov 5, 2014

Van Everyman said:
Good piece by Volin today on the OL resurgence. I found this to be interesting:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/04/patriots-offensive-line-rode-out-storm-nicely/Z2gHxTVWr975NdJKBa48nK/story.html?hootPostID=6a7fa442fc99ed027dafaa7ba685618f

Pretty risky gambit, but perhaps one that allows the team to better weather the usual attrition that occurs on the line and gives them more flexibility for the long term.

Or they screwed up in their evaluations of Cannon as a guard, who was miserable along the interior, and Devey as an NFL caliber linemen.

They've usually had a sixth linemen rotate in somewhere along the line, from Grant Williams to Hochstein to Connolly to Cannon. This has always been true. But I'm not sure I completely buy the above that using 8 line combos thru 4 games was some master plan.

Shelterdog · Nov 5, 2014

Super Nomario said:
Yeah, I'm with you. Volin's story makes for a neat narrative, but it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. Last year, Cannon started more than half the games as Vollmer was hurt. They played a game and a half with Mankins at LT and Kline at LG. Will Svitek started three games when both Cannon and Vollmer were hurt. In 2012 Donald Thomas played almost half the snaps, and Cannon and Nick McDonald started a handful of games each. This kind of turnover is pretty common, and the line didn't fall apart before. Moreover, it's not like they've been stable during this good run.

I'm with you. Here's a simpler narrative: Googs loves big fucking linemen and juggled big ~~sides~~ guys on the interior (partially for performance partially for injuries) until he eventually found that he just needed Wendell to form his best lineup

EDIT: Fucking autocorrect.

Tony C · Nov 5, 2014

Yep -- that makes a ton more sense, probably as simple as that.

Saints Rest · Nov 24, 2014

I was just looking at teh Patriots.com depth chart (http://www.patriots.com/schedule-and-stats/depth-chart.html) and they list Cannon as the 2nd string at both tackles plus at LG with Fleming listed as 3rd string at RT only. Laying aside the LG spot, I wonder why we saw Fleming get all those snaps against Indy as the 6th OLineman (tackle-eligible) over Cannon. Also, it seems like the Cannon tackle rotation has gone away.

Has Cannon fallen out of favor?

Who makes up the patriots.com depth chart?

Is Fleming on the rise?

And finally, after much well-deserved praise for the OL for their exemplary work running the football against INdy, how about some love for keeping Brady upright despite 53 pass attempts against the vaunted Detroit DLine?

Kenny F'ing Powers · Nov 24, 2014

Saints Rest said:
I was just looking at teh Patriots.com depth chart (http://www.patriots.com/schedule-and-stats/depth-chart.html) and they list Cannon as the 2nd string at both tackles plus at LG with Fleming listed as 3rd string at RT only. Laying aside the LG spot, I wonder why we saw Fleming get all those snaps against Indy as the 6th OLineman (tackle-eligible) over Cannon. Also, it seems like the Cannon tackle rotation has gone away.
Has Cannon fallen out of favor?

Who makes up the patriots.com depth chart?

Is Fleming on the rise?
And finally, after much well-deserved praise for the OL for their exemplary work running the football against INdy, how about some love for keeping Brady upright despite 53 pass attempts against the vaunted Detroit DLine?

Fleming had shown flashes throughout the season of solid in line blocking. He got a ton of burn as an extra lineman because he is very good at run blocking. Where he still lacked (in the few plays I watched him), is in pass protection. He has slow hand speed and his footwork suffers because he's fairly cumbersome. Those traits matter much less in run blocking. While he has surpassed Cannon as an extra blocking lineman, I don't think he's passed him as the backup option because Cannon is a clear upgrade in pass protection. For now, anyway.

Harry Hooper · Nov 24, 2014

I believe Kline went in as LG for Connolly yesterday.

Edit: need coffee

soxfan121 · Nov 26, 2014

Taming the Lions Pass Rush

Ryan Wendell Lowers The Boom

bakahump · Nov 26, 2014

soxfan121 said:
Ryan Wendell Lowers The Boom

Hooman does a great job chipping then passing Ansah off on that play as well.

MainerInExile · Nov 26, 2014

bakahump said:
Hooman does a great job chipping then passing Ansah off on that play as well.

Lots went right on the play. Just as LGBT gets into the whole, he covers the ball and lowers his pad level, so he's not going to be brought down by the hit that comes before he reaches the goal line.

lostjumper · Nov 26, 2014

soxfan121 said:
Ryan Wendell Lowers The Boom

Is the article coauthored by phragle?

In all seriousness, great articles.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Dec 8, 2014

Reason for concern here? There was a lot of talk during the telecast about Solder struggling at times with Ingram, but what worried me was Stork, Wendell, and Connolly getting ragdolled and allowing inside pressure. That's two straight games where the interior OL has struggled in pass protection.

Stitch01 · Dec 8, 2014

I think its reasonable to expect the interior O-Line will struggle at times. Its the same group that struggled last year in the playoffs against Denver plus Stork minus Mankins. They're not ruining the game anymore like earlier this year, but its not good interior OL.

I think it can be good enough to win a Super Bowl given the makeup of the rest of the team, Brady, and the offense BB/McDaniels/Brady have designed so long as Solder plays well. Brady, IMO, has done a great job moving around in the pocket and working around the up and down play of the interior line. Its the Solder fuckups alongside those that have caused major problems.

soxfan121 · Dec 8, 2014

Stitch01 said:
I think its reasonable to expect the interior O-Line will struggle at times. Its the same group that struggled last year in the playoffs against Denver plus Stork minus Mankins. They're not ruining the game anymore like earlier this year, but its not good interior OL.

I think it can be good enough to win a Super Bowl given the makeup of the rest of the team, Brady, and the offense BB/McDaniels/Brady have designed so long as Solder plays well. Brady, IMO, has done a great job moving around in the pocket and working around the up and down play of the interior line. Its the Solder fuckups alongside those that have caused major problems.

I generally agree and add that Brady also suffered a brief stretch of happy feet in the 2nd-3rd quarters and tried to get away with some sloppy mechanics.

Yes, this is sort of saying "Brady should stand in there and take it" which is insane, except this is football and it's his job. So...yeah. I'm criticizing the guy for not setting his feet properly while 275 pound brickshithouses try to scramble his brains. Football is weird.

Anyway, once the feet got set and he found his throwing mechanics, throws weren't low, off-target or rushed and it put ten points on the board for a win. GOAT.

Stitch01 · Dec 8, 2014

Also because the last time this came up there was a point about how we couldn't look at rushing stats in the aggregate and get the true story of the OL because we have to see how they do getting yards when it really matters, Pats were 31st in football going into yesterday on converting 3rd and 4th and 2 or shorter via the run.

soxfan121 · Dec 8, 2014

Super Nomario said:
He still had some happy feet in the fourth, but was more on-target, and of course he had the huge YAC on the Edelman TD. I'm not sure how valid this line of criticism is anyway; there are times where if you try to stay in one spot you're going to get sacked, and there are times when if you stride into the throw you're going to step on the OL in front of you that's getting shoved back into you. Taking a sack is the second-worst thing you can do as a QB, and Brady took just one yesterday, which is remarkable on 45 dropbacks given the kind of protection he was getting.

Sure, but there's sliding around and still using the proper mechanics and technique and ... there's not. He's better at it than most everyone else who plays the position, ever, and generally maintains proper fundamentals.

Within the context of it being wicked hard and him being wicked good at it generally, there were several instances of the rush not being "about to get home" where he didn't set his feet or use the right mechanics, etc. And it's chickenshit to criticize him for it, but it happened and partially explains some inefficiency in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, IMO.

bakahump · Dec 8, 2014

You win some you lose some.

There where a few plays where Stork absolutely man handled his guy.

m0ckduck · Dec 9, 2014

Stitch01 said:
Its the same group that struggled last year in the playoffs against Denver plus Stork minus Mankins.

Question for those who understand line play better than I do: where was this fatal flaw during the first 5 years of the Brady-Belichick era? I can, of course, remember certain key plays where Brady was sacked, but I don't remember a single game from 2001-06 where I felt that we lost (or nearly lost) because the O-line got abused throughout the game. (Maybe the 2004 October Steelers game-- that one's bit vague in my memory but I do see that Brady got sacked 4 times and threw 2 INTs). Superbowl XLII seemed to introduce this depressing trend that has now become the unifying theme in our season-ending losses. Was the personnel really so much better in those years with Mankins, Light and company? Was it the scheming and style of play? Is it just a trick of memory?

tims4wins · Dec 9, 2014

Go back and watch some of those old playoff games from the championship years. I think you will be surprised at how often the offense punted. The difference was that football was a different game, and the Pats defense was awesome.

Just go game by game:
2001:
Divisional vs. Raiders: 16 points
AFCCG vs. Pitt: 24 points; 7 on punt return, 7 on blocked FG, so the offense scored 10
SB vs. the Rams: 20 points, 7 on pick return, another 3 set up by pick return, another 7 set up by fumble return. The only time the offense drove in that game was the last drive

2003:
Divisional vs. Titans: 17 points
AFCCG vs. Indy: 24 points, including 5 FGs and a safety; offense drove for one touchdown
SB vs. Carolina: scored 32, but the offense didn't do much in the 1st and 3rd quarters; the first Pats TD was set up by a Vrabel strip sack; offense wasn't going up and down the field

2004:
Divisional vs. Indy: 20 points. Everyone thought they would need to score like 40 to beat Indy. The Pats didn't score in the first quarter and kicked two field goals in the second quarter. For the most part the offense didn't do a ton
AFCCG vs. Pitt: 41 points. The one time where the offense really lit it up from start to finish
SB vs. Philly: 24 points. Pats had 0 after a quarter, 7 at the half. Weren't exactly marching up and down the field

Even in 2007, the offense didn't have huge games against Jacksonville or SD in the playoffs before the SB.

TL;DR version: the Pats offense has never been great in the playoffs, but the defense covered a lot of flaws.

MarcSullivaFan · Dec 9, 2014

tims4wins said:
Go back and watch some of those old playoff games from the championship years. I think you will be surprised at how often the offense punted. The difference was that football was a different game, and the Pats defense was awesome.

Just go game by game:
2001:
Divisional vs. Raiders: 16 points
AFCCG vs. Pitt: 24 points; 7 on punt return, 7 on blocked FG, so the offense scored 10
SB vs. the Rams: 20 points, 7 on pick return, another 3 set up by pick return, another 7 set up by fumble return. The only time the offense drove in that game was the last drive

2003:
Divisional vs. Titans: 17 points
AFCCG vs. Indy: 24 points, including 5 FGs and a safety; offense drove for one touchdown
SB vs. Carolina: scored 32, but the offense didn't do much in the 1st and 3rd quarters; the first Pats TD was set up by a Vrabel strip sack; offense wasn't going up and down the field

2004:
Divisional vs. Indy: 20 points. Everyone thought they would need to score like 40 to beat Indy. The Pats didn't score in the first quarter and kicked two field goals in the second quarter. For the most part the offense didn't do a ton
AFCCG vs. Pitt: 41 points. The one time where the offense really lit it up from start to finish
SB vs. Philly: 24 points. Pats had 0 after a quarter, 7 at the half. Weren't exactly marching up and down the field

Even in 2007, the offense didn't have huge games against Jacksonville or SD in the playoffs before the SB.

TL;DR version: the Pats offense has never been great in the playoffs, but the defense covered a lot of flaws.

I was coming here to post the same thing. I think the offense deserves a little more credit for the Carolina Super Bowl -- that was a very good defense they were up against. But the point stands that the Super Bowl offenses had some stinkers in the playoffs. I think we remember them differently because Brady didn't have to dominate for the team to win.

As a side note, Mankins was not on any of the Super Bowl winning teams. The guards were Andruzzi, Woody, Mike Compton, and Neal [and the immortal Russ Hochstein.]

Stitch01 · Dec 9, 2014

They were definitely more balanced teams than some of the recent vintages. The 2001 offense wasn't very good, so its not surprising they weren't very good in the playoffs. The '03 offense was decent but worse than every offense that came afterwards (including the Cassel season), and those first two playoff games were both played in shitty conditions. '04 offense was excellent/elite and played generally very good in the playoffs. Slow start in the Indy game, but another game in not great conditions and a great 4th quarter clock killing drive. They were good but not great in the Super Bowl.

Offense has played a lot of good games in the playoffs as well though. (Carolina SB, Pitt '04, Jacksonville '05, NYJ '06, Indy '06, Jacksonville '07, Denver '11, Hou '12, Indy '13). Even in the losses mostly it was just the offense not playing at its usual high standards and not a total stink bomb where they couldnt do anything with the exception of the '09 Ravens game, the first Giants Super Bowl and (to a lesser extent) Denver '05 (turnovers) the 2nd Giants Super Bowl (few possessions skewed the score low and they moved the ball generally OK, just didn't capitalize), Ravens '12 (moved the ball well for 35 minutes, but too many missed chances then the turnover fest started) and last years AFC title game (valiant effort with a skeleton crew and they at least found something in the fourth quarter)

m0ckduck · Dec 9, 2014

tims4wins said:
TL;DR version: the Pats offense has never been great in the playoffs, but the defense covered a lot of flaws.

Thanks for the responses on this point.

To clarify, my contention wasn't that the offense as a whole performed at a higher level pre-2007, only that I don't specifically remember the O-line collapsing in epic fashion during these years, specifically not in the pass protection part of the game. But I suppose it's hard to separate one factor from the other (for example, the game plan was so conservative in 2001 that pass protection wasn't put to the test as much, etc).

soxfan121 · Dec 9, 2014

m0ckduck said:
Thanks for the responses on this point.

To clarify, my contention wasn't that the offense as a whole performed at a higher level pre-2007, only that I don't specifically remember the O-line collapsing in epic fashion during these years, specifically not in the pass protection part of the game. But I suppose it's hard to separate one factor from the other (for example, the game plan was so conservative in 2001 that pass protection wasn't put to the test as much, etc).

Your memory, like all memories, is prone to confirmation bias. This happens to me all the time, so I'm certainly not saying this is a "you" problem. But when all you've got is "remembering" it is time to do some research. Especially when others have given you the context and ability to easily look up, and confirm or disprove, your recollections.

Shelterdog · Dec 10, 2014

m0ckduck said:
Thanks for the responses on this point.

To clarify, my contention wasn't that the offense as a whole performed at a higher level pre-2007, only that I don't specifically remember the O-line collapsing in epic fashion during these years, specifically not in the pass protection part of the game. But I suppose it's hard to separate one factor from the other (for example, the game plan was so conservative in 2001 that pass protection wasn't put to the test as much, etc).

Am I the only person who remembers Jason Taylor and Aaron Schobel spent the better part of the 00s kicking the shit out of Matt Light?

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) · Dec 10, 2014

Shelterdog said:
Am I the only person who remembers Jason Taylor and Aaron Schobel spent the better part of the 00s kicking the shit out of Matt Light?

I remember this as well. I remember that Matt Light struggled with the long lean pass rushers of the day, but was dominate vs. the smaller quicker guys like Freeney.

I did this real quick and dirty from profootball focus. I don't know if Light played in all of these games or if all of these sacks came vs. Light:
Jason Taylor: 2000 thru 2007: 10.5 sacks vs. the pats in 16 games
Aaron Schobel: 2000 thru 2007: 11 sacks vs. the pats in 16 games
Dwight Freeney: 2002 thru 2010 3 sacks vs. the pats in 9 games vs the pats (regular season only)

Stitch01 · Dec 10, 2014

IIRC they used Graham to help Light a lot with Freeney

Rough Carrigan · Dec 10, 2014

Stitch01 said:
IIRC they used Graham to help Light a lot with Freeney

I also remember one game where Freeney started off well and then there was a play where Matt Light managed to neatly get his hands up juuuuust high enough that Freeney was going to crush his own windpipe if he'd made any more forward progress. Freeney didn't do much in that game after that play. Maybe he couldn't do that to Jason Taylor.

EdRalphRomero · Dec 21, 2014

For all the discussion of Edelman (and, to a lesser extent LGBT), the weakness of the Patriots against the Jets was the same problem that has plagued them throughout the season (or at least in the rough games) -- the fragile o-line. Dan Connolly's absence seemed the most important of the game. This, of course, is a bit odd in that Connolly hadn't looked great the last couple of games before he went out. I haven't yet re-watched the game, but it seems that Josh Kline was not up to the task.

Jeremy Gottlieb of the Globe posted the following after the game: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2014/12/five_takeaways_from_the_patriots_17-16_win_over_th.html

Left guard Dan Connolly, who has struggled of late, missed the game with an injury and his replacement, Josh Kline, was abused to the point of being benched in the second half. The line seemed to shore itself up to a point in the second half with Ryan Wendell moving to left guard and rookie Cameron Fleming taking over at right guard. But there were still plenty of occasions when Brady was in all kinds of trouble, sacked four times and hit 11 others...

So I guess the questions are:

Is Fleming the answer at guard?
Will Connolly be healthy enough to take back his job next week? (Neck? Ankle? Lingering effects of concussion? Or something else?)
Should Connolly get his job back?

What did you all see?

Mystic Merlin · Dec 21, 2014

Fleming should not be playing guard. The fact he was is more an indictment of Kline than anything.

EDIT - If Connolly is healthy he will start at guard.

lostjumper · Dec 21, 2014

Kline has to be one of the worst guards in all of football. He looked terrible in the first 4 games when he played, and he didn't show any improvement in today's game. I really don't understand why he's on the roster.

Shelterdog · Dec 21, 2014

Mystic Merlin said:
Fleming should not be playing guard. The fact he was is more an indictment of Kline than anything.

EDIT - If Connolly is healthy he will start at guard.

I'm as perplexed as you are (Kenny F and I spoke about it in another thread) but they seem to kind of like him at guard.

Tony C · Dec 21, 2014

lostjumper said:
Kline has to be one of the worst guards in all of football. He looked terrible in the first 4 games when he played, and he didn't show any improvement in today's game. I really don't understand why he's on the roster.

You meanDevey,I think I don't recall Kkine playing the first 4 games.

Shelterdog · Dec 21, 2014

Tony C said:
You meanDevey,I think I don't recall Kkine playing the first 4 games.

I think that's right. Kline had some spot duty against Minnesota and started the Jets and Buffalo games when others got hurt.

lostjumper · Dec 21, 2014

Yes, sorry, I combined Devey and Kline into one giant ball of suck. But Super Nomario made the point that I completely fumbled. We have 2 backups at guard, Devey and Kline, and both have been terrible in the time they have seen the field. To the point where the backups to the tackles, Flemming and Cannon, and been playing guard.

So why do we have 2 completely useless backup guards on the roster? Think we could lure Waters back for the playoffs? He couldn't be worse than those 2.

amarshal2 · Dec 21, 2014

Super Nomario said:
They also had only Fleming and Cannon as backup OL today, so once they decided to replace Kline, options were limited.

I'm not sure what to make of Fleming at G (or at least, what BB / McD / Googs think of him at G). He got the one start there Week 4, but this is only the second game he's been healthy since. Do they like him at G and he hasn't been healthy enough to re-insert (until today), do they not like him at G and today was just desperation, or is the jury still out? I do think it's interesting that rather than leave Wendell at RG (where he's played most of the year) and put Fleming at LG, they shifted Wendell to LG and inserted Fleming at RG. I'm guessing that means that Fleming hasn't practiced much at LG (a bit surprising if they were planning on using him there, given that Connolly was limited) or maybe that he's more comfortable on the right side.

I'm guessing you're right, but to lostjumper's point Devey's been a healthy scratch for eight straight weeks. If he's not better than Kline, why is he on the roster?

Wasn't Fleming inactive from the Indy game until this week? That certainly could explain the lack of reps even in practice.

RoDaddy · Dec 21, 2014

lostjumper said:
Yes, sorry, I combined Devey and Kline into one giant ball of suck. But Super Nomario made the point that I completely fumbled. We have 2 backups at guard, Devey and Kline, and both have been terrible in the time they have seen the field. To the point where the backups to the tackles, Flemming and Cannon, and been playing guard.

So why do we have 2 completely useless backup guards on the roster? Think we could lure Waters back for the playoffs? He couldn't be worse than those 2.

I doubt Kline is suck/terrible/useless. Along with Canon, he's been BB's main choice as backup OL for quite a while. The Pats also had plenty of chances to pick up another OL along the way the way they did ayers, blount, branch and didn't, including Incognito, so they must have some confidence in kline.
He's likely a half decent backup who had a bad day

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt · Dec 21, 2014

But our interior guard play, even with Connolly, has screamed "had a bad day" pretty regularly as of late. It is a big, big concern moving forward. If they don't address it in the first two rounds (and/or FA) next year I'll be surprised and more than a little disappointed. Could be a fatal flaw for this upcoming run. Hope I'm wrong and Connolly gets healthy and stabilizes things.

Devizier · Dec 21, 2014

I'm assuming the Patriots will seek to improve the interior line in the draft next season. I wouldn't hold my breath on free agency; aside from Waters, they haven't made a significant addition by free agency in over a decade.

ragnarok725 · Dec 21, 2014

I'd love to see some charting stats. Unless my eyes deceived me, I think they had stretches where Cannon was playing LT with Solder at RT, snaps with Solder off the field and Vollmer/Cannon at tackles.

Whatever was going on, it was bad. I eagerly await any FC content about it this week.

Shelterdog · Dec 21, 2014

ragnarok725 said:
I'd love to see some charting stats. Unless my eyes deceived me, I think they had stretches where Cannon was playing LT with Solder at RT, snaps with Solder off the field and Vollmer/Cannon at tackles.

Whatever was going on, it was bad. I eagerly await any FC content about it this week.

I think they were running Cannon/Vollmer with Solder as a TE/6th oline player.

nazz45 · Dec 21, 2014

ragnarok725 said:
I'd love to see some charting stats. Unless my eyes deceived me, I think they had stretches where Cannon was playing LT with Solder at RT, snaps with Solder off the field and Vollmer/Cannon at tackles.

Whatever was going on, it was bad. I eagerly await any FC content about it this week.

One reason for some of the odd personnel is that Solder can't go from a tackle eligible receiver (6 OL) to a regular old tackle (5 OL) on the following play. By rule, he has to miss a play before returning to his tackle role. They have been using Cannon in the traditional tackle spot when using six offensive lineman. I believe that only happened twice in the game, though - not sure if Solder sat on any other occasions.

The new look OL

Who starts at C and the 2 G spots: Pick 3

Chris Barker

Marcus Cannon

Braxston Cave

Dan Connolly

Jordan Devey

Cameron Fleming

Jon Halapio

Josh Kline

Bryan Stork

Ryan Wendell

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