The Nation's Tears: Volume III

loshjott

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
7,930
Silver Spring, MD
Wait, what? Edelman, as great as he is, would probably be the least accomplished member of the football HOF if he were inducted on the basis of his career to date.
He's all of 72 reg season yards behind Hall of Famer Lynn Swann. And 500+ yds ahead post-season.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,937
Santa Monica, CA
I would think they would love an up to date example of tough hitting defensive football. Isn’t that what Tomlin says who they are and what they do?
That Steelers thread was a mix of comical whining and also plenty of fair-minded and even complimentary posts.

Sosh is good at policing grammar and utter stupidity, but other than that, the linked thread is no better or worse than what you'd see here after a rival AFC team won a Super Bowl.

I mean, hypothetically, since that never happens.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
36,042
Wait, what? Edelman, as great as he is, would probably be the least accomplished member of the football HOF if he were inducted on the basis of his career to date.
You haven't heard that this week? It's why I put the "whatever" in there. But guys like Rice and Boomer and Deion are talking about it, based on his postseason numbers. It's been a secondary topic on talk shows all week.

My main point was not that he was a HOFer but that you can see how jealous guys like Jennings are.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
10,015
Wait, what? Edelman, as great as he is, would probably be the least accomplished member of the football HOF if he were inducted on the basis of his career to date.
Interesting, I remember Lynn Swann having a pretty pedestrian career numbers wise.

Julian Edelman:

9 Seasons
5,390 career yards
499 catches
30 TDs
2 1,000+ seasons
4 seasons with at least 70 receptions (3 over 90)
Playoffs: 18 games, 115 catches, 1412 yards, 5 TDs, 3 Super Bowls, 1 SB MVP

Swann:

9 seasons
5,462 yards
51 TDs
0 1,000 yard seasons
0 seasons with at least 70 receptions
Playoffs: 16 games, 48 catches, 907 yards, 9 TDs, 4 Super Bowls, 1 SB MVP

It's a different era. Both guys are in based on their postseason resume, and Swann was a better red zone option, but Edelman was a better regular season player and more prolific, albeit playing in a much more pass friendly atmosphere. Edelman also not a starter until his 5th season, so most of his numbers have really been compiled over a five-year span. Plus he has contributed more as a punt returner.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
21,634
Here
Wait, what? Edelman, as great as he is, would probably be the least accomplished member of the football HOF if he were inducted on the basis of his career to date.
There’s a serious argument to be had that slot receivers should be measured separately from outside receivers imo, but if and until that happens, he probably won’t get in.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,937
Santa Monica, CA
Interesting, I remember Lynn Swann having a pretty pedestrian career numbers wise.

Julian Edelman:

9 Seasons
5,390 career yards
499 catches
30 TDs
2 1,000+ seasons
4 seasons with at least 70 receptions (3 over 90)
Playoffs: 18 games, 115 catches, 1412 yards, 5 TDs, 3 Super Bowls, 1 SB MVP

Swann:

9 seasons
5,462 yards
51 TDs
0 1,000 yard seasons
0 seasons with at least 70 receptions
Playoffs: 16 games, 48 catches, 907 yards, 9 TDs, 4 Super Bowls, 1 SB MVP

It's a different era. Both guys are in based on their postseason resume, and Swann was a better red zone option, but Edelman was a better regular season player and more prolific, albeit playing in a much more pass friendly atmosphere. Edelman also not a starter until his 5th season, so most of his numbers have really been compiled over a five-year span. Plus he has contributed more as a punt returner.
Why does he get credit for not starting for a big chunk of his career?

It's a subjective conversation, but you really cannot compare passing/receiving stats from 1977 to stats from 2018.

Look at the numbers some of Edelman's contemporaries are putting up, and consider how picky the NFL HoF typically is.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
10,015
Why does he get credit for not starting for a big chunk of his career?

It's a subjective conversation, but you really cannot compare passing/receiving stats from 1977 to stats from 2018.

Look at the numbers some of Edelman's contemporaries are putting up, and consider how picky the NFL HoF typically is.
Well, I was pointing out that Edelman's career peak was significantly higher than Swann's because he put up almost all of his career numbers in a five-year span. Obviously passing numbers have been greatly inflated; but I'd argue from a statistical resume he stacks up pretty well to Swann, who is in the Hall of Fame. And Swann's numbers don't stand out even when compared to his contemporaries; he never broke 1,000 yards once in his career and his teammate John Stallworth did it three times.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
2,777
Imaginationland
Edelman has never sniffed a pro bowl, he's 23rd among active players in receptions, 31st among active players in receiving yards and 41st among active players in receiving TDs. He has no chance at the HOF, nor should he.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,873
Boston, NY
Edelman has never sniffed a pro bowl, he's 23rd among active players in receptions, 31st among active players in receiving yards and 41st among active players in receiving TDs. He has no chance at the HOF, nor should he.
Unless voters decide to put him in on the basis of his post season accomplishments. I'm not necessarily advocating that they do, but Edelman COULD end up as a unique case given what he did in three SB winning playoffs.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
36,042
Edelman has never sniffed a pro bowl, he's 23rd among active players in receptions, 31st among active players in receiving yards and 41st among active players in receiving TDs. He has no chance at the HOF, nor should he.
He hasn’t sniffed a Pro Bowl? In 2016 he had better numbers than all 3 of the AFC WRs named as alternates, and would’ve been named except for the fact that he had to make one of the greatest catches in Super Bowl history the week after.

Also, pretty much the entire argument for him being made by guys like Jerry Rice is based on his postseason numbers.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
This just in: Suh might not be that bright.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/ndamukong-suh-actually-said-rams-eliminated-julian-edelman-super-bowl?amp

Suh on Edelman: "He's an elite player, plays hard, found some holes in our defense in the first half and pretty much the third quarter.
In my opinion, just thinking back, we eliminated him, even though he got yardages. We just have to not allow points to get on the board and give our offense more opportunities to score."
I think the subtext was “our job as a defense is to prevent the other team from scoring. We held the Pats to 13. The fact we didn’t win isn’t the defense’s fault. And the reason the Pats won want Julian Edelman.”
All true.
All shitty things to say as any kind of teammate.
 

TrotWaddles

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2004
711
San Antonio, TX
I think the subtext was “our job as a defense is to prevent the other team from scoring. We held the Pats to 13. The fact we didn’t win isn’t the defense’s fault. And the reason the Pats won want Julian Edelman.”
All true.
All shitty things to say as any kind of teammate.
It’s Suh. At least he didn’t step on one of our people last night.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

T&A
SoSH Member
Feb 9, 2010
5,243
Providence, RI
Edelman has never sniffed a pro bowl, he's 23rd among active players in receptions, 31st among active players in receiving yards and 41st among active players in receiving TDs. He has no chance at the HOF, nor should he.
The NFL HOF committee confirmed that counting stats are not the only requirement to get into the hall of fame when they elected Tony Dungy. Guy was a mediocre player and has a good but not all time great coaching resume. He was put in more for his effect in the game in a later context then for what he accomplished on the field.

Personally I’m ok with the NFL HOF being less about stat totals and more about moments, influence on the history of the game, etc... people will argue that Frank Gore should be a hall of famer and when you look at only the stats he has complied then you might agree. But has Gore ever had a signature play or moment on the biggest of stages? Something like Edelman’s catch against the falcons, throw against the ravens or his performance last night?

I don’t think anyone would argue that Frank Gore has had a larger impact to the history of the NFL then Edelman. A HOF that puts in Gore over Edelman is kind of broken.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,937
Santa Monica, CA
If you have a taste for bitter, salty tears, you should track down the audio of Mike Francesa's show tonight on WFAN.

He spent the whole show breathlessly babbling about how Joe Montana is the greatest "Super Bowl" quarterback of all time, and how you can make an argument for Marino, Elway, Unitas, Bart Starr (?!), or Joe Namath (lol) as the all time greatest.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
5,202
Needham, MA
The other way to look at that is it isn’t Frank Gore’s fault he was drafted by the 49ers and played a ton of his career on shit teams and Edelman was lucky he was drafted by the Pats.

I love me some Jules and he’s been unreal in the post-season obviously, but I have no issue with Frank Gore being a HOFer and Edelman not. Frank Gore never had a chance to have a signature playoff moment because he played on lousy teams. Maybe Edelman is an outlier but great players should not be penalized for the fact that they toiled for shitty teams.

Tony Gonzalez never won a playoff game in his career and doesn’t have a signature moment either.

Edit: In response to T&A
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
29,087
Another nationally known sports broadcaster/blogger trying to take down the Patriots. Warning...its a vicious hit piece and calls into question Tom Brady's leadership as well as his lack of ability as receiver. Here are some sample quotes:

But as great as they are at winning I think its time to question how many more they could of won if they had a different QB playing for them. Once again they won the Superbowl, and once again Tom Brady’s wide receiver declined to decline the MVP trophy in favor of their leader.
In this case its not even worth winning the title. Id much rather be a Ram then a GOAT in this situation folks.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
6,548
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Unless voters decide to put him in on the basis of his post season accomplishments. I'm not necessarily advocating that they do, but Edelman COULD end up as a unique case given what he did in three SB winning playoffs.
Edelman was out last year and Amendola basically had the same postseason he just had. He'll be seen as a tough, clutch player who had a lot of opportunities to play big playoff games as part of the Brady/Belichick machine. He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame, not should he.
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
2,766
Not even close to the player Edelman is. This is where the Eye test matters most. Jules has weaknesses (drops for 1 example) but he is a game changer. They don’t win at least 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls without him nor do they get to those Super Bowls without him.
Recency bias. Deion has better career stats, and played his prime years with Brady before the rule changes.
 

lars10

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
5,414
It’s Suh. At least he didn’t step on one of our people last night.
He did take Patterson's head and slam it to the ground on one of his running attempts.. he was in on the tackle but took his right hand to specifically drive his head to the ground. Suh's still a cheap SOB.

edit: oops.. corrected
 
Last edited:

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
36,530
He did take Stallworth's head and slam it to the ground on one of his running attempts.. he was in on the tackle but took his right hand to specifically drive his head to the ground. Suh's still a cheap SOB.
Patterson?
 

j-man

Member
Dec 19, 2012
1,422
Arkansas
the pats won fair last night the pats cant heip only the rams def showed up

i knew the SB whould be this way about 3 days ago
i played my uncle on madden big pitt fan hates ne he was the rams i was ne and i ran about 70% of ne gameplan and won 33-13 i made goff throw 8 picks i was up 27-0 at haif
 

Dollar

Member
SoSH Member
May 5, 2006
7,610
He did take Stallworth's head and slam it to the ground on one of his running attempts.. he was in on the tackle but took his right hand to specifically drive his head to the ground. Suh's still a cheap SOB.
To be fair, it was impressive that he did that to a guy who has been retired for almost a decade.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I think the subtext was “our job as a defense is to prevent the other team from scoring. We held the Pats to 13. The fact we didn’t win isn’t the defense’s fault. And the reason the Pats won want Julian Edelman.”
All true.
All shitty things to say as any kind of teammate.
That's almost the exact very loud argument that broke out after a heartbreaking loss on my son's soccer team.......when he was in fifth grade.
 

Hendu for Kutch

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 7, 2006
5,745
Nashua, NH
Oops. Yeah.

Ugh. Yes, brain fart.

Was I the only one that saw that? Didn't seem like anyone commented on it.
Definitely saw that, also saw Donald throw Brady down in a way that would have been an easy 15 yards in a regular season game. But they were lenient both ways, in that regard. The sideline hit on Goff was in bounds and legal and still typically gets flagged anyways.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
36,042
Edelman was out last year and Amendola basically had the same postseason he just had. He'll be seen as a tough, clutch player who had a lot of opportunities to play big playoff games as part of the Brady/Belichick machine. He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame, not should he.
I'm not sure I get your point of pointing out that because a player once had a postseason similar to the one Edelman just had then that must mean the TOTALITY of Edelman's numbers and signature postseason moments are meaningless.

Anyway, this wasn't an argument anyone here was really making---it was from a show today where they mentioned that guys like Jerry Rice had said something about the HOF for Edelman, and Greg Jennings was whining that he didn't get the opportunities Edelman did and it was funny watching him cry and moan about it.

I'm not sure anyone here really things he's a HOF'er. It was a set up for watching others whine.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,804
January 4, 2000 is a glorious holiday in New England. It commemorates Jets Emasculation Day, when BB infamously scrawled "I resign as HC of the NYJ" on a cocktail napkin. Not even a full-size napkin!!!!

Since that day, the New England Patriots have gone 271-43 and the New York Jets have gone 147-169.
I love any excuse to post this video. No matter how many times I watch this it never gets old.

 

bunchabums

lurker
Jul 16, 2005
283
Los Angeles
LA is a terrible town... all I wanted on my commute home was to listen to fans bitch and moan about the loss, revel in the excuses and envy for Brady and BB and the Pats. I eagerly tune in to the AM sports stations and all they are talking about is the Lakers. How dare they deny me my schadenfreude!
 

loshjott

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
7,930
Silver Spring, MD
Edelman was out last year and Amendola basically had the same postseason he just had. He'll be seen as a tough, clutch player who had a lot of opportunities to play big playoff games as part of the Brady/Belichick machine. He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame, not should he.
Lynn Swann is in the HoF with counting stats that will be well below Edelman's when he retires. Edelman already has 100+ more reg season catches and is only 72 reg season yds behind. Post-season stats are not in the same time zone. To be fair, Swann is way ahead in YPC reg season and playoffs. He was a different type of receiver

I'm already deliciously anticipating Steeler fans arguing against Edelman going to the HoF.
 

CantKeepmedown

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,746
Portland, ME
When did Michael Wilbon become such a hater?


There's a difference between great defense and impatient AND unimaginative offense...cant wait to hear all the football apologists try to spin how great this is. It aint.
edited to add text for those on mobile
 

drleather2001

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,644
Lynn Swann is in the HoF with counting stats that will be well below Edelman's when he retires. Edelman already has 100+ more reg season catches and is only 72 reg season yds behind. Post-season stats are not in the same time zone. To be fair, Swann is way ahead in YPC reg season and playoffs. He was a different type of receiver

I'm already deliciously anticipating Steeler fans arguing against Edelman going to the HoF.
And Joe Flacco has more passing yards than Steve Young and more TD than Troy Aikman.

In 1978, Lynn Swann had 880 yards receiving. That was enough to place him 7th in the league. In 2018, it would place him 26th. In 2017, 24th.

In 1979, his 789 yards ranked him 4th.

Edelman's best receiving year by yards, 2016 (with 1,106), placed him 13th in the league.

Passing and receiving stats are completely different than they were 30-40 years ago. It's like how a 30 HR season was vastly more impressive in 1978 than it was in 1998.
 
Last edited:

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
26,583
AZ
I tuned in to NFL radio coming home last night to see what they were saying about the game. Polian was one of the hosts. The poor guy just can’t deal with the Patriots. Every compliment was backhanded and you can just hear how badly he is trying not to come off like a sourpuss and to at least give the appearance that he is objective.

But then he slips. After I was listening for about 30 minutes he made the “point” not to get too crazy about Belichick being great, because the Chiefs beat the Patriots great game plan and basically won the game except for the offsides.
 

Helmet Head

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
2,353
Central Mass
When did Michael Wilbon become such a hater?
You should have heard him after the afc championship on pardon my interruption. He was apoplectic the pats won and basically said they always get help from the refs and don’t really earn the wins.

Starting at 6:25. SALTY!

 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
35,225
When did Michael Wilbon become such a hater?


edited to add text for those on mobile
I have no context for what he was before PTI, but I have assumed that being on a long-running TV show that demands instant hot-takes has pushed him into all-out curmudgeonhood. I also assume he generally has a healthy dislike for all things Boston sports.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
26,583
AZ
I have no context for what he was before PTI, but I have assumed that being on a long-running TV show that demands instant hot-takes has pushed him into all-out curmudgeonhood. I also assume he generally has a healthy dislike for all things Boston sports.
Even Kornheiser, whose old DC radio show was excellent, has had to turn into a hot takes guy and has gone from reporter to lazy talking head.

But Kornheiser has always given credit to greatness and so has been very complimentary to Belichick even if his takes on spygate were a bit lazy. I think in the beginning Wilbon’s “hate” for the Pats was shtick so they could do their back and forth. But somewhere along the line it turned real. He has been especially panicked this year about the danger of Brady being compared with his beloved MJ.
 

m0ckduck

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
835
But then he slips. After I was listening for about 30 minutes he made the “point” not to get too crazy about Belichick being great, because the Chiefs beat the Patriots great game plan and basically won the game except for the offsides.
I realize I shouldn't even leap for the bait here. But: the fact that the Pats won that game on the road with a -2 turnover differential proves exactly the point that Poilan is trying to un-prove: Belichick badly outcoached Reid, just as he did Lynn and McVay this postseason. I don't think he's been great every single postseason— last year's SB, 2015, and 2010 stand out to me as clunkers. But this year, it was like watching Alex Cora's run through the postseason except at an exponentially greater degree of difficultly.
 

soxin6

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
2,814
Huntington Beach, CA
LA is a terrible town... all I wanted on my commute home was to listen to fans bitch and moan about the loss, revel in the excuses and envy for Brady and BB and the Pats. I eagerly tune in to the AM sports stations and all they are talking about is the Lakers. How dare they deny me my schadenfreude!
That's sums up LA pretty well. They are Lakers, Dodgers, and Bandwagon. Once the Rams lost, they forgot they even existed.