The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[Deathofthebambino]

This is so disingenuous, the offense has lead to a shit ton of points this season. How many points has the defense actually been responsible for?

The question is what would prime Tom Brady have done with this roster?

Somebody pointed out that Tom was 6-1 with the 2006 roster. How is pointing out that the 2006 team was 6-1 not because of Tom Brady, but because of their defense, disingenuous?

It's like arguing that the 9 game winning streak in 2001 to finish the season and the playoffs was because of Tom Brady, and not because of the defense that gave up 120 points in 9 games, and turned over the opponents 25 times in that stretch.

In the first 7 games of 2006, Brady threw for under 200 yards 5 times (and one of them was only 220 yards) and he only had one game with a passer rating over 91, he had 10tds and 3ints (a number of those touchdowns set up by his defense) and another 5 fumbles (2 of which he lost).

I don't think it's really that controversial to say that this 2023 team with Tom Brady under center would probably be 3-4, maybe 4-3 with some lucky breaks. This defense is nowhere near the same level, even before all of the injuries, as that 2006 defense was early in the season.

 

[caesarbear]

You honestly think this year's defense has not kept the Pats competitive? You think Brady, or any other experienced and collected QB couldn't have won the Eagles game? LV was only kicking field goals against us and that's on the 2023 defense? The only blow outs were DAL and NO with 3 turnovers each. 5-2 this year would have been in reach of many offenses. The force modifier isn't the defenses in this comparison. The question is where in this year's offense is the weak link.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

The question is what would prime Tom Brady have done with this roster?

Somebody pointed out that Tom was 6-1 with the 2006 roster. How is pointing out that the 2006 team was 6-1 not because of Tom Brady, but because of their defense, disingenuous?

It's like arguing that the 9 game winning streak in 2001 to finish the season and the playoffs was because of Tom Brady, and not because of the defense that gave up 120 points in 9 games, and turned over the opponents 25 times in that stretch.

In the first 7 games of 2006, Brady threw for under 200 yards 5 times (and one of them was only 220 yards) and he only had one game with a passer rating over 91, he had 10tds and 3ints (a number of those touchdowns set up by his defense) and another 5 fumbles (2 of which he lost).

I don't think it's really that controversial to say that this 2023 team with Tom Brady under center would probably be 3-4, maybe 4-3 with some lucky breaks. This defense is nowhere near the same level, even before all of the injuries, as that 2006 defense was early in the season.

The biggest issue is the one you're obfuscating - Mac Jones kills this offense because of his turnovers.

Interception rates have decline greatly since 2006, yet in nearly the same amount of attempts, Mac has 7 INTs in 7 games, Brady had 3.

Mac, at best, is a game manager. But he fails in the one place game managers can't. That makes him useless as a starting QB in this league.

 

[rodderick]

We're still doing the Brady thing, huh. All it took was one good game for that schtick to come back. God almighty.

And the 2000-2001 Patriots went from 21st in offensive EPA/Play in Bledsoe's first 18 starts with Belichick to 6th in offensive EPA/Play the rest of the way under Brady. Also finished the year with a higher rank in EPA/Play and DVOA on offense than on defense. But sure, defense carried, we need to continuously try to retroactively diminish Tom Brady's impact in order to prop up Mac fucking Jones. If you truly believe Patrick Mahomes would add a single win to this team at this point I don't even understand the league you're watching. Honestly.

 

[jk333]

The biggest issue is the one you're obfuscating - Mac Jones kills this offense because of his turnovers.

Interception rates have decline greatly since 2006, yet in nearly the same amount of attempts, Mac has 7 INTs in 7 games, Brady had 3.

Mac, at best, is a game manager. But he fails in the one place game managers can't. That makes him useless as a starting QB in this league.

While I agree with your post above, @Deathofthebambino has consistently said that Mac is forced into tough situations because of the dearth of playmakers around him. That playmakers can elevate their qb; take Purdy, after 5 games with no INTs, with injuries on offense he’s had 3 in his last 2 games.

Fwiw, after being impressed by Mac’s rookie season, I’ve been out on him since Zappe outperformed him. Still, it’s true that the coaches think he gives the Patriots the best chance to win and the players around him on offense are amongst the 2 or 3 worst groups in the entire league. It’s fair to think what he’d look like with better players around him. Still, at this point I’m onto the next guy.

 

[rodderick]

While I agree with your post above, @Deathofthebambino has consistently said that Mac is forced into tough situations because of the dearth of playmakers around him. That playmakers can elevate their qb; take Purdy, after 5 games with no INTs, with injuries on offense he’s had 3 in his last 2 games.

Fwiw, after being impressed by Mac’s rookie season, I’ve been out on him since Zappe outperformed him. Still, it’s true that the coaches obviously think he gives them the best chance to win and the players around him on offense are amongst the 2 or 3 worst groups in the entire league. It’s fair to think what he’d look like with better players around him; still at this point I’m onto the next guy.

I think everyone in this board agrees that Mac has been let down by his surrounding cast and would perform better with more talent around him, the issue arises when the conversation takes the tone of "this is about as well as any QB could possibly play in these circumstances". Not all of Mac's failings are due to the dearth of playmakers around him, I don't know why some here just apparently pretend we can't watch the games.

So now when he plays well the explanation isn't that he actually performed significantly better, it's all about the OL, the play calling, and the receivers playing better. That takes any agency away from the QB, makes it seem as if he's the only guy on the team who's play is static week to week (or even year to year) and will vary solely based on how guys perform around him. I completely reject that notion. There was A LOT wrong with Mac in terms of processing and mechanics that was visibly, obviously better against Buffalo. The QB can help a lot if he plays well, some here pretend there's nothing he can do about his circumstances.

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

No one is going to point out that league wide offensive numbers are down the first year that TB 12 is out of the league? It is right there on a tee people.

 

[rodderick]

No one is going to point out that league wide offensive numbers are down the first year that TB 12 is out of the league? It is right there on a tee people.

I did think it was funny to see so many people point to the heavy usage of zone coverage, particularly cover 2 as a reason for passing game decline when playing that against Brady was a death sentence for two decades. But maybe he just had the exact right players around him to beat those calls consistently, and most other QBs would have done the same, who knows.

 

[lars10]

You refuse to give Mac any credit. He gets a pass tipped at the line and you act like Mac was the second coming of JaMarcus Russell out there yesterday. Ok I admit Mac wasn't perfect yesterday but you seem to go too far in the other direction.

If one’s expectation of QB play is to have every play be perfect than they should never be happy with any QB.. it’s ridiculous that some fans around here can’t just say Mac had a good game..without all the nitpicking caveats.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I think everyone in this board agrees that Mac has been let down by his surrounding cast and would perform better with more talent around him, the issue arises when the conversation takes the tone of "this is about as well as any QB could possibly play in these circumstances". Not all of Mac's failings are due to the dearth of playmakers around him, I don't know why some here just apparently pretend we can't watch the games.

So now when he plays well the explanation isn't that he actually performed significantly better, it's all about the OL, the play calling, and the receivers playing better. That takes any agency away from the QB, makes it seem as if he's the only guy on the team who's play is static week to week (or even year to year) and will vary solely based on how guys perform around him. I completely reject that notion. There was A LOT wrong with Mac in terms of processing and mechanics that was visibly, obviously better against Buffalo. The QB can help a lot if he plays well, some here pretend there's nothing he can do about his circumstances.

Go rewatch his interceptions this season. The majority of them are unforced errors. He has the time, he just makes a horrible choice. That's not on the line, the calls, or the receivers.

The worst part for him is that you can SEE him unravel and know its coming. The play prior to his fumble this week was a disaster by him as well, he managed to get lucky. He got lucky the Cowboys didn't pick off his FIRST atrocious cross body, cross field throw...good thing he did it again immediately!

 

[lexrageorge]

I dont really even know what this means.

Mac's "bad games" are fucking atrocious. His average games aren't even game manager level because hes prone to TOs. Let me put this in perspective - this was the best game we've EVER seen from Mac Jones.

They scored under 30 points.

In his BEST EVER GAME. And they needed 2 turnovers - one in AMAZING field position - to get there.

I'm fucking off the Mac train. Done. He can take his Trent Dilfer Lite routine - minus the moxy, plus the TOs - and take it to the bench for another team.

I know everyone on this board is super duper psyched for what Mac just did, but I expect better. He can't even pull the carpet out from under you guys, you're already touching the hardwood.

Fuck Mac Jones.

Citing 2 turnovers by Buffalo is utterly misleading, as is the total points. With regards to the turnovers, the Josh Allen fumble happened on the final desperation play of the game after he was essentially tackled and the Bills chance of scoring on that play essentially went to 0 anyway. So the offense only benefited from a single interception, and the result was a possession at midfield (hardly AMAZING!!).

The Patriots got a score on 6 drives out of 9; that is excellent by NFL standards. Of the 3 non-scoring, 2 ended in punts, and one ended in Bourne's fumble which had nothing to do with Mac Jones. If there is a criticism to be had of the Pats offense, it's that 3 of the drives ended in field goals rather than touchdowns; ideally, a team would like to convert one of those FGs into TDs. But not all of that can be put on Mac; consider:

Drive #1: Pats get first down deep into Bills territory after the nice catch-and-run by Pharaoh Brown. But the coaches elect to run 3 straight times, which leads to a 4th-and-2, after which Bill decides to take the easy 3 points. Mac doesn't run block so not his fault.

Drive #2: TD after the Allen pick.

Drive #3: 3-and-out, probably closest drive all day to the bad Mac/bad offense.

Drive #4: Mac again got them down deep into Buffalo territory. 2 Zeke runs went nowhere, and they only got 7 yards on the 3rd-and-10. Would need to see film to see if Mac missed an open receiver on the 3rd down pass, but this seemed like one of those drives where a real playmaking WR would have perhaps been able to gain the first there.

Drive #5: They got a bit conservative here with the game situation (13-3 lead, nearing end of half). The film segments posted on Xitter show that Douglas perhaps ran the wrong route, and Mac made the correct decision to eat the play, leading to the team's 2nd and final punt of the day.

Drive #6: I do think Mac screwed up here with the bad checkdown to Rham and then taking a sack. But he didn't try to make an awful throw like he did against the Raiders. And the drive itself ate some valuable clock and still resulted in 3 points. Be interesting to see the film breakdown here.

Drive #7: TD after a superbly executed clock-killing drive by Mac.

Drive #8: Bourne fumble. Without that fumble, there's a decent chance the Pats get at least a FG out of the drive and eat enough clock to ice the game.

Drive #9: Perfection for a TD. Honestly, any complaints about Mac's performance on this drive really do not make any sense.

Like every QB does every single Sunday, Mac left some plays out there. So did the OL when run blocking in the first half, which Mac literally has no control over. The low (not really) score of 29 points was also in part due to the low number of drives by the offense. Looking at the teams that scored 30+ points this past Sunday, the Eagles and Ravens had at least 10 drives. Jags had 11 (ignoring the kneel down) and a pick-6 by the D. Bears had 9, but were likewise helped by a defensive TD. The wild Colts-Browns game featured 16 drives apiece!!

It may very well be that the single game was a mirage, and bad Mac will return soon enough. After all, the overall evidence is still that he's at best a middling starting QB, and maybe not even that if he goes back to throwing bad interceptions. But he also executed two 4th quarter scoring drives when the margin for error was basically nil. Situational football matters.

Anyway, there are no better options for QB on the roster or on the scrap heap or trade market (no thanks on Kirk Cousins). The most important outcome long term for the team is for the OL to play well enough that we can actually see via film and via the game results if Mac is worthy of picking up the option. Jury is indeed still out on that last piece.

 

[BaseballJones]

Go rewatch his interceptions this season. The majority of them are unforced errors. He has the time, he just makes a horrible choice. That's not on the line, the calls, or the receivers.

The worst part for him is that you can SEE him unravel and know its coming. The play prior to his fumble this week was a disaster by him as well, he managed to get lucky. He got lucky the Cowboys didn't pick off his FIRST atrocious cross body, cross field throw...good thing he did it again immediately!

Well, you may be right. But then you'd have to say he showed pretty impressive intestinal fortitude to rebound after "unraveling", because when they got the ball back, down 25-22, with just 1:58 on the clock and the ball at the NE 25, he proceeded to go 6-7 for 64 yards and the game winning TD with just 12 seconds left in the game.

 

[rodderick]

Well, you may be right. But then you'd have to say he showed pretty impressive intestinal fortitude to rebound after "unraveling", because when they got the ball back, down 25-22, with just 1:58 on the clock and the ball at the NE 25, he proceeded to go 6-7 for 64 yards and the game winning TD with just 12 seconds left in the game.

It was a great drive, but there's a reason it has been celebrated this much, it is literally the first time he's managed to do it. Halfway through year 3.

 

[lars10]

This is so disingenuous, the offense has lead to a shit ton of points this season. How many points has the defense actually been responsible for?

There have been quite a few long drives on this Pats D this year.. including the opening drive of the raiders game that was over 8 minutes I believe.. without their two best players this D has held it together but it hasn’t been great every game… to simply put it as always on the offense is equally disingenuous imo without actually putting in the work of looking at the actual down and distance.

 

[BaseballJones]

It was a great drive, but there's a reason it has been celebrated this much, it is literally the first time he's managed to do it. Halfway through year 3.

100%. Thought he had other drives that WOULD have been this, but his teammates turned it over. But hey, it's a team game. Finally saw it all the way through.

 

[rodderick]

100%. Thought he had other drives that WOULD have been this, but his teammates turned it over. But hey, it's a team game. Finally saw it all the way through.

I just think using this game as an indictment on who Mac actually is is kind of silly. It's the outlier in a 27 game sample size (since the Buffalo wind game). Similarly, the Cowboys game was an outlier in ineptitude as well, even though he followed it up with a comparable performance and then the pitchforks were fully out. If he has another game that's 85% as good as this one against Miami, then some minds will probably start being changed about him, but either way you're right that it was good to see him bounce back not just in terms of results, but of processing, patience and mechanics after being kicked down for 6 games.

 

[Jinhocho]

https://x.com/ezlazar/status/1716624156832186720?s=20

https://x.com/ezlazar/status/1716624669963346370?s=20

The slant has been there all year for Mac and they finally started throwing it this week.

 

[BaseballJones]

I just think using this game as an indictment on who Mac actually is is kind of silly. It's the outlier in a 27 game sample size (since the Buffalo wind game). Similarly, the Cowboys game was an outlier in ineptitude as well, even though he followed it up with a comparable performance and then the pitchforks were fully out. If he has another game that's 85% as good as this one against Miami, then some minds will probably start being changed about him, but either way you're right that it was good to see him bounce back not just in terms of results, but of processing, patience and mechanics after being kicked down for 6 games.

Yep.

But Miami's defense (a) isn't great to start with, and (b) is missing some key pieces, so even if Mac does very well, won't people be saying, yeah, but it's not like he was going up against the 85 Bears here.

 

[lars10]

You honestly think this year's defense has not kept the Pats competitive? You think Brady, or any other experienced and collected QB couldn't have won the Eagles game? LV was only kicking field goals against us and that's on the 2023 defense? The only blow outs were DAL and NO with 3 turnovers each. 5-2 this year would have been in reach of many offenses. The force modifier isn't the defenses in this comparison. The question is where in this year's offense is the weak link.

The bills scored in how many seconds in their second to last drive?

this defense was great with Gonzalez and Judon.. to ignore how this d has changed without them….

LV as an offense has been horrible.. they had one of their best games against this D… that was obviously hobbled.

 

[rodderick]

Yep.

But Miami's defense (a) isn't great to start with, and (b) is missing some key pieces, so even if Mac does very well, won't people be saying, yeah, but it's not like he was going up against the 85 Bears here.

People will minimize it or overreact positively no matter how well he does. I'm just interested in how he looks, couldn't care less about the opponent or the box score. I thought he had fine protection against an average at best Raiders defense and looked terrible, while some are bringing up how the Bills were missing key defensive starters but I don't care about that because he looked confident, poised and mechanically sound. If he's 20/33 for 216 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs versus the Dolphins but he's dealing with the rush, not speeding up his reads, going to the right place consistently and guys are dropping passes and running shitty routes I'll be satisfied. He just looked bad prior to this last game, which is why I have little patience for the "what can he possibly do considering what he has around him??" crowd.

 

[BaseballJones]

People will minimize it or overreact positively no matter how well he does. I'm just interested in how he looks, couldn't care less about the opponent or the box score. I thought he had fine protection against an average at best Raiders defense and looked terrible, while some are bringing up how the Bills were missing key defensive starters but I don't care about that because he looked confident, poised and mechanically sound. If he's 20/33 for 216 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs versus the Dolphins but he's dealing with the rush, not speeding up his reads, going to the right place consistently and guys are dropping passes and running shitty routes I'll be satisfied. He just looked bad prior to this last game, which is why I have little patience for the "what can he possibly do considering what he has around him??" crowd.

As I said the other day, I posted early in the season that my hypothesis is that if/when Mac does what he did vs. the Bills - play well and lead a last-minute, game-winning drive against a good team - that it would flip a switch in him and we'd see his game reach a new level.

I am excited to see if my hypothesis is going to be validated, starting with this week's game in Miami.

 

[rodderick]

As I said the other day, I posted early in the season that my hypothesis is that if/when Mac does what he did vs. the Bills - play well and lead a last-minute, game-winning drive against a good team - that it would flip a switch in him and we'd see his game reach a new level.

I am excited to see if my hypothesis is going to be validated, starting with this week's game in Miami.

I do feel like he's a guy that rides the roller coaster a whole lot, the highs are waaaay high and he's feeling it, and then when the lows come he's super down on himself.

 

[DJnVa]

https://x.com/ezlazar/status/1716624156832186720?s=20

https://x.com/ezlazar/status/1716624669963346370?s=20

The slant has been there all year for Mac and they finally started throwing it this week.

Lazar said elsewhere that he thinks the changes we saw this week (motion, etc.) weren't necessarily due to "starting over" but a place the offense has been building to.

 

[Koufax]

Yeah, it almost feels like the "starting over" and "back to basics" was a subterfuge. There was nothing basic about that opening drive.

 

[8slim]

If one’s expectation of QB play is to have every play be perfect than they should never be happy with any QB.. it’s ridiculous that some fans around here can’t just say Mac had a good game..without all the nitpicking caveats.

The "nitpicking caveats" are because (a) Mac has shown various shades of terribleness this season (and last) and (b) people are hoping last Sunday was not a one-off, but a sign of consistently better play to come.

Hell, some of the loudest NEVER MAC posters here have given him nothing but praise in the past 48 hours.

 

[tims4wins]

As I said the other day, I posted early in the season that my hypothesis is that if/when Mac does what he did vs. the Bills - play well and lead a last-minute, game-winning drive against a good team - that it would flip a switch in him and we'd see his game reach a new level.

I am excited to see if my hypothesis is going to be validated, starting with this week's game in Miami.

Yeah you've been banging this drum for a while. I'm excited to see what happens this weekend. Wrote it elsewhere, but win and LFG. Lose and LFT (Tank).

 

[rodderick]

Yeah you've been banging this drum for a while. I'm excited to see what happens this weekend. Wrote it elsewhere, but win and LFG. Lose and LFT (Tank).

They'll win 6 games minimum this year, it'll probably be a question of picking 12th or 17th by the end of the season. The second half schedule has a ton of games against teams as good or worse than the Pats, they'll win a good number of those even if they lose to Miami. I think the tank was only on in the scenario in which they're 1-7 going into the bye and morale is super low and guys aren't even trying. If they have the slightest amount of energy and disposition they won't be in tank mode.

 

[BaseballJones]

Yeah you've been banging this drum for a while. I'm excited to see what happens this weekend. Wrote it elsewhere, but win and LFG. Lose and LFT (Tank).

Yeah I think this is it. Not that they'll intentionally tank, but if they lose this week, they're basically completely done at 2-6, needing to go 8-1 the rest of the way basically to have any real shot at the playoffs, which obviously is a very tall order. But if they win this week, that'll put them at 3-5, having beaten the two best teams in the division (and conference, really), and now anything is possible.

 

[8slim]

Yeah you've been banging this drum for a while. I'm excited to see what happens this weekend. Wrote it elsewhere, but win and LFG. Lose and LFT (Tank).

I'm not sure a game at Miami should be the G/T decider here. I mean for fans, mind you, BB ain't gonna "tank" so rooting for a tank is going to lead to nothing but frustration IMHO.

They could lose at Miami (which we've done with some of the best Pats teams of the past 40 years), take advantage of the next 5 games being pretty soft, and end up sitting at 7-6. That seems unlikely to me, but not impossible.

If you're going to decide on G/T then I'd say the Commanders game after Miami is the inflection point.

*edit* More clearly, it shouldn't be the tank decider. That deserves one more week. If we win then team Go.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Citing 2 turnovers by Buffalo is utterly misleading, as is the total points. With regards to the turnovers, the Josh Allen fumble happened on the final desperation play of the game after he was essentially tackled and the Bills chance of scoring on that play essentially went to 0 anyway. So the offense only benefited from a single interception, and the result was a possession at midfield (hardly AMAZING!!).

The Patriots got a score on 6 drives out of 9; that is excellent by NFL standards. Of the 3 non-scoring, 2 ended in punts, and one ended in Bourne's fumble which had nothing to do with Mac Jones. If there is a criticism to be had of the Pats offense, it's that 3 of the drives ended in field goals rather than touchdowns; ideally, a team would like to convert one of those FGs into TDs. But not all of that can be put on Mac; consider:

Drive #1: Pats get first down deep into Bills territory after the nice catch-and-run by Pharaoh Brown. But the coaches elect to run 3 straight times, which leads to a 4th-and-2, after which Bill decides to take the easy 3 points. Mac doesn't run block so not his fault.

Drive #2: TD after the Allen pick.

Drive #3: 3-and-out, probably closest drive all day to the bad Mac/bad offense.

Drive #4: Mac again got them down deep into Buffalo territory. 2 Zeke runs went nowhere, and they only got 7 yards on the 3rd-and-10. Would need to see film to see if Mac missed an open receiver on the 3rd down pass, but this seemed like one of those drives where a real playmaking WR would have perhaps been able to gain the first there.

Drive #5: They got a bit conservative here with the game situation (13-3 lead, nearing end of half). The film segments posted on Xitter show that Douglas perhaps ran the wrong route, and Mac made the correct decision to eat the play, leading to the team's 2nd and final punt of the day.

Drive #6: I do think Mac screwed up here with the bad checkdown to Rham and then taking a sack. But he didn't try to make an awful throw like he did against the Raiders. And the drive itself ate some valuable clock and still resulted in 3 points. Be interesting to see the film breakdown here.

Drive #7: TD after a superbly executed clock-killing drive by Mac.

Drive #8: Bourne fumble. Without that fumble, there's a decent chance the Pats get at least a FG out of the drive and eat enough clock to ice the game.

Drive #9: Perfection for a TD. Honestly, any complaints about Mac's performance on this drive really do not make any sense.

Like every QB does every single Sunday, Mac left some plays out there. So did the OL when run blocking in the first half, which Mac literally has no control over. The low (not really) score of 29 points was also in part due to the low number of drives by the offense. Looking at the teams that scored 30+ points this past Sunday, the Eagles and Ravens had at least 10 drives. Jags had 11 (ignoring the kneel down) and a pick-6 by the D. Bears had 9, but were likewise helped by a defensive TD. The wild Colts-Browns game featured 16 drives apiece!!

It may very well be that the single game was a mirage, and bad Mac will return soon enough. After all, the overall evidence is still that he's at best a middling starting QB, and maybe not even that if he goes back to throwing bad interceptions. But he also executed two 4th quarter scoring drives when the margin for error was basically nil. Situational football matters.

Anyway, there are no better options for QB on the roster or on the scrap heap or trade market (no thanks on Kirk Cousins). The most important outcome long term for the team is for the OL to play well enough that we can actually see via film and via the game results if Mac is worthy of picking up the option. Jury is indeed still out on that last piece.

Again, I'm not saying Mac played poorly. He didn't. He played well. One of his best games in the NFL. I mean, they actually scored THREE OFFENSIVE TOUCHDOWNS. 360+ yards of offense! And the Bills were only missing their best CB, two best defensive tackles, and their best linebacker! If they could play like this every week, they may even be a middle of the pack offense!

LFG!!!

 

[tims4wins]

I'm not sure a game at Miami should be the G/T decider here. I mean for fans, mind you, BB ain't gonna "tank" so rooting for a tank is going to lead to nothing but frustration IMHO.

They could lose at Miami (which we've done with some of the best Pats teams of the past 40 years), take advantage of the next 5 games being pretty soft, and end up sitting at 7-6. That seems unlikely to me, but not impossible.

If you're going to decide on G/T then I'd say the Commanders game after Miami is the inflection point.

*edit* More clearly, it shouldn't be the tank decider. That deserves one more week. If we win then team Go.

Completely agree

 

[Jimbodandy]

While I agree with your post above, @Deathofthebambino has consistently said that Mac is forced into tough situations because of the dearth of playmakers around him. That playmakers can elevate their qb; take Purdy, after 5 games with no INTs, with injuries on offense he’s had 3 in his last 2 games.

Fwiw, after being impressed by Mac’s rookie season, I’ve been out on him since Zappe outperformed him. Still, it’s true that the coaches think he gives the Patriots the best chance to win and the players around him on offense are amongst the 2 or 3 worst groups in the entire league. It’s fair to think what he’d look like with better players around him. Still, at this point I’m onto the next guy.

I don't fault anyone for being ready to move on from Mac. I do wonder sometimes whether people here are watching other NFL games though. Purdy is referenced here again, and with the SF OL falling apart looked like garbage last night. They couldn't run or pass the ball worth shit against a thoroughly mediocre Vikings team, and Brock threw a WTF interception to end it. Hoyer this weekend? Garbage against a junk Bears team. Howell, absolute trash against a poor Giants team. Mayfield was blah and lost. This shit happens. If you surround your QB with nothing, you'll lose to bad teams. None of this is an endorsement of Mac, but protecting your QB is kind of important.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

They could lose at Miami (which we've done with some of the best Pats teams of the past 40 years), take advantage of the next 5 games being pretty soft, and end up sitting at 7-6. That seems unlikely to me, but not impossible.

See, this is what I'm talking about. They lost 34-0 to the fucking SAINTS and 21-17 to Brian Hoyer and the Raiders. And that's the type of team the Patriots have been for 2 years. One win against the Bill's, and people are squinting to get to 7-6. The Commanders, Colts, Giants, Chargers, and Steelers are no worse than Brian Hoyer lead teams. In fact, the majority of them are better than the Raiders and Saints.

In no world does this roster run the table in that stretch to go 5-0.

This is the first game since week ONE where Mac Jones functioned like an NFL QB, and were shitting our pants with excitement.

 

[BaseballJones]

See, this is what I'm talking about. They lost 34-0 to the fucking SAINTS and 21-17 to Brian Hoyer and the Raiders. And that's the type of team the Patriots have been for 2 years. One win against the Bill's, and people are squinting to get to 7-6. The Commanders, Colts, Giants, Chargers, and Steelers are no worse than Brian Hoyer lead teams. In fact, the majority of them are better than the Raiders and Saints.

In no world does this roster run the table in that stretch to go 5-0.

This is the first game since week ONE where Mac Jones functioned like an NFL QB, and were shitting our pants with excitement.

Well to be fair, when you're 1-5 and looking every bit like the worst team in the NFL, a win like the Pats had on Sunday was pretty exciting, yes?

 

[Justthetippett]

As I said the other day, I posted early in the season that my hypothesis is that if/when Mac does what he did vs. the Bills - play well and lead a last-minute, game-winning drive against a good team - that it would flip a switch in him and we'd see his game reach a new level.

I am excited to see if my hypothesis is going to be validated, starting with this week's game in Miami.

I like your optimism. It is a potential turning point for him, but only if he can actually follow it up. If they fall behind by a few scores this weekend I think we could be back to the ugly hero ball that he has no business trying.

 

[BaseballJones]

I like your optimism. It is a potential turning point for him, but only if he can actually follow it up. If they fall behind by a few scores this weekend I think we could be back to the ugly hero ball that he has no business trying.

For sure. My hypothesis could TOTALLY be falsified. We shall see.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Again, I'm not saying Mac played poorly. He didn't. He played well. One of his best games in the NFL. I mean, they actually scored THREE OFFENSIVE TOUCHDOWNS. 360+ yards of offense! And the Bills were only missing their best CB, two best defensive tackles, and their best linebacker! If they could play like this every week, they may even be a middle of the pack offense!

LFG!!!

And the Pats had 20 guys on the injury report in the middle of the week.

Look I've been one of the biggest Mac bashers on the board but he did what until this point he hasn't yet done: he played very well, he avoided turnovers, he overcame adversity and he led a GW TD drive at the end to win it. There's absolutely nothing to bash Mac for this week.

He hasn't played well enough to that point in his career to think he's the guy, but Sunday was an outstanding game from him.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

And the Pats had 20 guys on the injury report in the middle of the week.

Look I've been one of the biggest Mac bashers on the board but he did what until this point he hasn't yet done: he played very well, he avoided turnovers, he overcame adversity and he led a GW TD drive at the end to win it. There's absolutely nothing to bash Mac for this week.

He hasn't played well enough to that point in his career to think he's the guy, but Sunday was an outstanding game from him.

I literally made a post a few above yours agreeing with that. It was one of his best games. I'm not sure why I can't agree to that while also acknowledging that maybe it shouldn't be expected to be the norm?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I literally made a post a few above yours agreeing with that. It was one of his best games. I'm not sure why I can't agree to that while also acknowledging that maybe it shouldn't be expected to be the norm?

I think the issue is that you are so forcefully dismissing the idea that it's nice and feels good to see him have a good game for once.

Also, we can draw a couple of direct lines between the move on the OL (Onwenu to LT) and increased playing time to Douglas and the better performance from Mac. I don't think that's a stretch. He's still very physically limited and seems to need things around him to be perfect to succeed, but for the first time on Sunday he actually succeeded at the end of the game.

I honestly don't think if suddenly given Tyreek Hill to throw to Mac would become a very good/excellent QB, he simply doesn't have the arm. But we just saw a situation arise where Mac did succeed. Hopefully he and the team can build off of that.

 

[Auger34]

I don't fault anyone for being ready to move on from Mac. I do wonder sometimes whether people here are watching other NFL games though. Purdy is referenced here again, and with the SF OL falling apart looked like garbage last night. They couldn't run or pass the ball worth shit against a thoroughly mediocre Vikings team, and Brock threw a WTF interception to end it. Hoyer this weekend? Garbage against a junk Bears team. Howell, absolute trash against a poor Giants team. Mayfield was blah and lost. This shit happens. If you surround your QB with nothing, you'll lose to bad teams. None of this is an endorsement of Mac, but protecting your QB is kind of important.

I am going to remove Purdy from this because I think that situation (talent/scheme/coaching) is an outlier. It's hard to replicate and I don't think it's instructional really.

However, I think you've hit on something at the end there. When you don't have a good QB, there is a ton of variance week to week. I am a Buc fan and watching Mayfield has been maddening. He played like a world beater at the Saints and since then has been mediocre to bad. (He also has better weapons than Mac but I digress).

I think if you give Mac a middle of the road offense around him, I think the results would be pretty similar to what they are now. The lows wouldn't be as low, but he'd still be in the 20-32 tier. I think the gulf between him and the very good QB's is wide.

EDIT: We have all been very spoiled watching Brady. That's an obvious statement but, man, has it been jarring to actually watch.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I think the issue is that you are so forcefully dismissing the idea that it's nice and feels good to see him have a good game for once.

Also, we can draw a couple of direct lines between the move on the OL (Onwenu to LT) and increased playing time to Douglas and the better performance from Mac. I don't think that's a stretch. He's still very physically limited and seems to need things around him to be perfect to succeed, but for the first time on Sunday he actually succeeded at the end of the game.

I honestly don't think if suddenly given Tyreek Hill to throw to Mac would become a very good/excellent QB, he simply doesn't have the arm. But we just saw a situation arise where Mac did succeed. Hopefully he and the team can build off of that.

Welp, the good news here is that the schedule will play out and we'll be able to decide if I was wrong, or if Mac turns back into a pumpkin (in which case, I get to smear it back into all your stupid, ugly faces).

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Welp, the good news here is that the schedule will play out and we'll be able to decide if I was wrong, or if Mac turns back into a pumpkin (in which case, I get to smear it back into all your stupid, ugly faces).

The next game is in Miami which is the Pats' personal House of Horrors so it's highly likely you will get that chance.

 

[rodderick]

The next game is in Miami which is the Pats' personal House of Horrors so it's highly likely you will get that chance.

Dolphins defense sucks and the weather will be good, there's really little excuse for the Pats not to move the ball on them. Not in the "score 35" sense, but to play competent, representative offense and have a chance to win if the defense isn't pantsed.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Dolphins defense sucks and the weather will be good, there's really little excuse for the Pats not to move the ball on them. Not in the "score 35" sense, but to play competent, representative offense and have a chance to win if the defense isn't pantsed.

Games in Miami defy all logic and I don't expect that to change this year.

 

[rodderick]

Games in Miami defy all logic and I don't expect that to change this year.

Sure, but they could lose while the offense looks good, like in the Miami Miracle game, for instance.

 

[8slim]

See, this is what I'm talking about. They lost 34-0 to the fucking SAINTS and 21-17 to Brian Hoyer and the Raiders. And that's the type of team the Patriots have been for 2 years. One win against the Bill's, and people are squinting to get to 7-6. The Commanders, Colts, Giants, Chargers, and Steelers are no worse than Brian Hoyer lead teams. In fact, the majority of them are better than the Raiders and Saints.

In no world does this roster run the table in that stretch to go 5-0.

This is the first game since week ONE where Mac Jones functioned like an NFL QB, and were shitting our pants with excitement.

Its Bills, not Bill's.

And who cares if people are "squinting"? Nothing I write or think is going to have the slightest bit of impact on the results of these games. So for this week I'm choosing to have some hope, however irrational, and think that maybe there's a path to 7-6 against a creamy soft schedule.

If instead we end up 2-11 what difference does it make?

The pathological need for some people to prove they were "right all along!!1!1" is something I'll never understand. You get 100 internet points from me if the Pats go worse than 5-1 over the next 6 games. Spend them wisely.

 

[8slim]

Well to be fair, when you're 1-5 and looking every bit like the worst team in the NFL, a win like the Pats had on Sunday was pretty exciting, yes?

It's not exciting for a guy who was rooting for his favorite team to lose.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

You honestly think this year's defense has not kept the Pats competitive? You think Brady, or any other experienced and collected QB couldn't have won the Eagles game? LV was only kicking field goals against us and that's on the 2023 defense? The only blow outs were DAL and NO with 3 turnovers each. 5-2 this year would have been in reach of many offenses. The force modifier isn't the defenses in this comparison. The question is where in this year's offense is the weak link.

Mac Jones threw for 300 yards, 3td's and 1 pick in the Eagles game, which included a drop by JuJu, a drop by Bourne, two passes in which Boutte couldn't keep his feet down. The last drive stalled, not because of Mac Jones.

And keeping them competitive is different than "winning them games." The 2006 defense gave up an AVERAGE of 12 points in the first 7 games. If the 2006 defense was on the field against the Eagles, maybe they don't give up 3 consecutive field goal drives.

The Pats scored a touchdown right before the half to make the score 16-14.

The Pats went 3 and out to open the 2nd half, a 3 and out mind you, because Mac hit Boutte with a deep throw down the sideline that any NFL receiver should be able to get his feet down.

The next possession, the Eagles went 10 plays and kicked a field goal.

Then the Pats went on a 13 play drive that ended with a punt.

That exhausted Pats defense that just got 6:00 of rest, then took the field and gave up an 11 play drive that resulted in a field goal.

Then the Pats went on a 10 play drive that resulted in a turnover on downs (where everyone, myself included, thought BB should have kicked a field goal)

The exhausted Pats defense took the field again, and gave up a 7 play drive, and another field goal. Now, that score that was 16-14 is 23-14.

The Pats scored a touchdown on the next drive.

Then the Pats defense, apparently now full of energy, got a turnover and the Pats took over on the Eagles 41.

Mac got buried by 2 guys right up the gut, leading to a 3rd and 12 play, he stood in the pocket, threw a dime down the middle to Kendrick Bourne, who couldn't make a catch that again, NFL receivers make all the time.

The Pats got the ball back, and again, on fourth and 11, Mac hit Boutte for a 12 yard completion, on the sideline, to save time on the clock, but again, Boutte couldn't keep his feet down, like every NFL receiver should be able to, and Boutte coincidentally hasn't seen the field since this.


Yes, the Pats fell behind early because of mistakes Mac made. I'm pretty confident that 2006 Tom Brady made plenty of mistakes too. The difference is I don't think that 2006 defense gives up 3 straight field goals to open the 2nd half, after having a ton of rest on the sidelines between series. As bad as Tom's receivers were in 2006, I'm confident that one of them comes down with a huge catch there that none of the Pats receivers in 2023 came down with.


Again, I'm granting the 2023 Pats at 4-3 (although not convinced of it) with Tom Brady, instead of 2-5 with Mac Jones. This is hardly out of line. But the idea that the 2006 roster, especially the defense, wasn't better than what we have now is fucking absurd. Jesus, a lot of that same roster went out and won 18 straight games the next year. I guess it's easy to overlook the 4th ranked defense in the NFL when you add Randy Moss and Welker to the offense though.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Do other fans do this with their quarterbacks? I'm guessing the answer is yes. It might be fun to go to Sons of X and see what the discussion is for Kenny Pickett or Derek Carr or Taylor Heinicke. I bet the entire discussion is exactly the same. We might learn a thing or two about how kind of silly the discussion can get.

I mean, we have 50 pages on the same exact discussion where some people are very vocal in hating Mac and minimizing good performances and the issues caused by the rest of the offense, and others irrationally enthusiastic despite all evidence to the contrary about who this guy is and has been over multiple seasons. For those of us in the reasonable middle -- and I really think we must be the majority but just not loud enough to drown out the rest or willing enough to wade into the spitting match between the factions at the ends of the spectrum -- it gets to be tedious. This game wasn't a turning point that is suddenly going to allow a great QB to emerge because we found some success repurposing a guard to tackle. Nor is Mac as bad as his worst plays of the season.

I think the main impact of this game was how it affected those of us in the middle who had basically decided that whatever the actual objective answer to this tedious question, it didn't matter because Mac was wrecked at this point and would need new pastures to see what he could do. For us? This week was a bit of a stay of execution that says, "well, we have an HOF coach, let's see what we can make of this chicken shit." That's not nothing, but, man, there's nothing the either side at the ends of the spectrum is going to say to other at this point. Nor are people going to feel shame about rooting, or backhanded rooting, for outcomes that prove they are correct. It's human nature in the message board age.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

TBF Boutte couldn't keep his foot down because the ball got there too late, the ball needed to be delivered earlier in the route.