Yeah, real rosy-colored reactions here...Since we drafted him the thread has not been decent, it’s been so rosy colored it’s obnoxious.
He is valuable on a rookie deal. Do I like Mac Jones? No. He was one of the few people I didn't want them to draft. But this can work - Mac keeps the cost at QB down. If you fix his mechanics and throwing motion there is untapped velocity and ball placement to add.
Going to riff a little on Mac Jones.
The thing with any fairly-immobile pocket-passer is you have limitations. Mac can work around them with his pocket-presence and he has better escape moves than Trask but there will always be limitations to his game. You can scheme around them. You can have success with a pocket passer. The issue with Mac to me is his arm is fringy and I am not sold that he is an elite processor. If you have his skill-set you need to have a perfect surrounding, a great OL, good skill players, etc. But if Mac Jones can develop there is a case for him having more ceiling than at first blush.
You can fix some of Mac's issues mechanically which should stop balls from dying on him but he isn't going to be a guy who ever operates a vertical passing offense. In a lot of ways Mac Jones and Lamar Jackson have similar arms. They can attack the middle of the field and the short to intermediate areas but are going to struggle outside the numbers. If you can get his delivery more compact and less fading off his back leg he should gain both velocity and ball placement with the latter concerning me more with his next step the pro game.
Intangibles are important and I can tell you why I liked Mac Jones much more as I got into his 2020 tape. At the start of the process I only had Mac's 2019 tape and I had a 6.49 on him, a backup grade. One of his worst games was vs Auburn in 2019. One of Mac's biggest issues was adjusting to a post snap coverage that was different from pre-snap coverage. He couldn't see it. You know what happened this year when teams tried to pull the same shit on him? He saw through it. He actually improved and you could see defenses not fooling him. That is significant.
It was hard to get a read on him. Mac Jones was one of the most challenging evals and not just for me but for most NFL forecasters and evaluators... It's hard to evaluate a guy with a fringy arm, with inconsistent ball placement, with shitty mobility who plays on an absolutely loaded team for a phenomenal coordinator who has an offense that doesn't actually ask Mac to process a ton on most plays. Jones had around 58% of plays via screen, RPO, or play-action. Good thing for him the Patriots like play-action and screens too.
Let's look at his strengths and weaknesses:
Strengths: pocket presence, can get the ball out quickly, is one of the better field readers, has good general accuracy, hard worker, a locker-room leader. Works the short and intermediate areas of the field well and can have success downfield with timing and anticipation and will be aided through play-actions. Some of the best short and intermediate touch and anticipation.
Weaknesses: fringe to average arm strength, inconsistent to poor ball placement, lack of mobility, can be too quick to get the ball out and leave plays on the field, needs to learn when to throw it away because he doesn't have the arm or athleticism to play back-yard ball.
I like dual-threats. I like mobile guys. I like the Lamar Jacksons, Justin Fields, Trey Lance's of the world. I don't like guys who have narrower paths to success and have, and this is true whether you love Mac or not, fewer tools in the tool belt. But as long as Mac Jones can win as a pocket passer he can be a quality starter. If Jones can add arm strength, become more of an athlete which would lead to better mobility in the pocket as well as another way to increase his arm strength, fix his mechanics which would then lead to ball placement improvement and velocity increases he has the makings of a Matt Ryan kind of a QB prospect on the high end and a Marc Bulger on the low end. Guys who have elite mental traits like Brady, Ryan, Manning, Brees are rare but there is a path to a higher ceiling QB based on RARE elite traits. Does he have them? Will he have the chance to develop them? Remains to be seen. His mental progression from 2019 is a cause for optimism though.
I guess another reason I was a little lower on him is I am a human being, he isn't my type, and I wish I was going to watch a flashier, sexier, toolsier prospect for my favorite team. But if I can talk myself into liking Mac Jones and being rational and not petty about it after an entire off-season of dreading him... well, and I don't know who else needs to hear this, maybe you can too
Now let's get some DBs, RBs, and OTs. And a WR would be nice too. Got to keep the weaponz fresh for Mac Daddy. Only the best for our country-club QB. Hey. I had to get one dig in, right?
The thing I like the most about Mac is his cost. They have a 2-4 year window with last years draft, the rest of this years draft, and the free-agents they got this year. The only realistic way imo they were doing that is by having a rookie QB on that sweet sweet rookie deal. With the way Mac improved from 2019-2020 if he can starter by the end of this year they could be in contention for the division next year.
There is a negative side too. If Mac Jones was more a product of a loaded team and a great scheme and who is more immobile and doesn't continue to develop as a pocket passer he could absolutely be a bust but then again that is true of any QB.
That's just 2 from me and one from Zososoxfan. Others were skeptical too. He was 50-something on my own board which is admittedly an amateur board but I was never a Mac Jones guy.@SMU_Sox post zeroes in on the philosophy behind this. Even if Mac is a reach at 15, he's a system QB who's likely a good fit for the system. BB HAS built the offense so that it would greatly benefit any QB and having good weapons everywhere in lieu of an elite WR, TE, or RB lends itself to a QB who can find the best matchup.
I'm sure BB did his homework and rightfully expects Mac to get the most he can out of his body in becoming a pro. Tactically, because Mac will presumably struggle with downfield throws BB will need to figure out how to scheme around press coverage and Cover 0 setups where the D dares the Pats to go deep. Then again, the TEs running seam routes should help significantly in that regard.
My biggest fear with Mac is that his height may prevent him from seeing the field well from the pocket. Most traditional NFL QBs seem to fall into the 6'4'' - 6'5'' range, and Mac is listed at 6'2'' - 6'3''. Dalton, Fitzmagik, and Bridgewater are listed at 6'2'', Carr and Cousins are listed at 6'3'', Ryan and Brady are listed at 6'4'', Wentz and Big Ben listed at 6'5'' etc.
So yeah, I'm OK with BB betting that Mac can become good enough during his rookie deal to get the ball out to the right talented guy, but I still wish he'd have gone for Fields since he can paper over talent or scheme disparities with his tools.
Maybe it’s not warranted, the draft threads were much more balanced.Yeah, real rosy-colored reactions here...
That's just 2 from me and one from Zososoxfan. Others were skeptical too. He was 50-something on my own board which is admittedly an amateur board but I was never a Mac Jones guy.
I don't think your criticism of the community is warranted and furthermore it does nothing to further the actual discussion about Mac Jones. I'll respond to your other posts but I think you need to reread the thread. This isn't a Mac Jones love-fest. A lot of us have serious concerns about him.
My dude, you're getting personal attacks because you're doing inane stuff like insinuating that Jones is causing players to get injured. You're not getting ridiculed because you're being critical of Mac, or because you really like Cam, you're getting mocked because you're going about both in ways that, to quote @Bergs, would fail to hold up to "any level of intellectual/factual/logical scrutiny beyond that employable by your average high school freshman," --and I think that's a bit unfair to high school freshmen. Your arguments aren't being engaged with because they are, quite frankly, not worth the minimal amount of mental effort typically applied on an internet message board.Maybe it’s not warranted, the draft threads were much more balanced.
Go back and read the Cam threads, and read some of the most recent “font” and personal attack responses to my posts, versus the way harsh critics of Cam were called out…they were reasoned with, not mocked.
Happy to see more and more Mac criticism, it is very warranted, as it is of the team’s decision to start him in this manner.
The Gilmore situation has nothing to do with Mac. They are completely unrelated. There is a Gilmore thread on this board that discusses how the situation unfolded. Gilmore wanted out. The Pats were up against the cap. They don't have any restructure options unless they want to add years to veterans deals. They might not have been able to do that anyway or even wanted to do that given the veteran options to execute that strategy with. They would have done the same thing had they been 4-0 at the time or 0-4. I would suggest, if you have access to The Athletic, reading Jeff Howe's article about why the Gilmore situation evolved as it did. Last year when they were 2-5 at the deadline Bill resisted trading Gilmore and Thuney because he would rather have them and compete and the team thought they were close to being competitive. Bill isn't a raise the white flag guy.How is the fact that Mac Jones being the QB having a losing record, relating to the loss of the best defensive player on the team, which will lead to more losses and looks like a punt on the season…not an important part of the discussion of his thread?
Isn’t the point of his thread to assess his impact on the team, at least in part? I know it’s so much fun talking about his completion percentage…after we just spent 20 years telling people, mocking people in fact because those kinds of cherry picked individual stats aren’t as important as w’s.
Look at the injury reports for the two teams this week…sure you can point to BB’s injury report gamesmanship…maybe that’s true here…but the Cowboys look a lot healthier and a lot “winnier”. Cowboys made the right decision with their QB, Pats didn’t. Mac Jones is the Pats QB so is it ok in his thread to compare him to his upcoming opponent?
Cam probably doesn’t fare much better this year. Why? Cam isn’t a fast release guy and the line is leaking pressure. Cam worked well with a good line and run game. He wouldn’t have had that this year. He also couldn’t run the offense the way they wanted him to. With a rookie you know the guy is going to struggle a bit early on. You make the move to give him more experience and time to develop live if he can handle the mental part of the game. If the rookie can’t handle the mental part of the game he needs to sit. Mac is a normal rookie starter in a floundering offense. He gets the mental aspect of the job. He’s not reading the wrong coverages. He’s manipulating guys with his eyes which is a trait some QBs don’t pick up until year 3 or 4! I have my doubts about Mac Jones but he was ready to start.If I’m Cam I‘m waiting until later in the season or until next season to have a full offseason with a team, and then calling myself cooked if it still looks no good. Then spending the rest of my pst career split between that team and Carolina, honoring the Carolina fans and including the last team in my orbit.
Yes 6 preseason quarters and 500 practice reps mean that Mac Jones was better than Cam Newton…it’s preposterous actually, it’s more than revisionist history…it’s just bad football management. And the results of this season back it up.
5-0? With this offensive line and the way they’ve been playing? With the complete lack of the run game? With these skilled guys playing like they have been? (To be fair not all the skilled guys have been bad). Give me a break. Again, Cam is only going to moderately improve run production at best behind this line. That modest increase isn’t going to get you to 5-0. If Cam is so good why didn’t Miami bring him in over JB? Why hasn’t anyone signed him? He’s willing to be a backup. It’s because he’s an extremely limited QB and has a shoulder that is barely attached to his shoulder.Yeah, I never said Cam was statistically good last year, or that there was no chance he would stink this year. I am arguing it was a catastrophic mistake not to make sure of that for all kinds of reasons. That should weigh in on Mac’s evaluation.
I do think it was an epic season for Cam filling in for Brady, and keeping them in the playoff hunt the whole year is one of the most impressive seasons in NE history…and I’m predicting much more impressive than Mac’s current season and likely career future, if not for probability alone. How much longer will the pats last in playoff contention this year…we’ll see I guess…and that’s with 150 million more in talent…
We are in near worst case scenario with Mac.
The worst case scenario with Cam is that we are right where we are now, and people are hopeful Mac can turn it around…Best case scenario with Cam is 5-0, and I’d say at least 3-2 with a chance gilmore is sticking around bolstering the defense and maybe Cam having a mini renaissance…let alone if he keeps progressing with the team and actually has a good year for him.
You don’t start Mac unless you think he’s ready to start. It’s that simple. They thought he was ready. I think he’s proven he is ready. This is how rookies perform. You seem to be so sure they would have been better with Cam but I don’t think that argument has much merit minus the slight improvement to the run game (and a decrease in passing effectiveness most likely especially behind the OL). Net net we might even be worse with Cam. I’d bet we probably are. And I even thought Cam would start the season.Who cares if he is the best of four lousy looking rookie Qb’s on losing teams?
How is it so hard to see the Pats offering Gilmore what he wanted if they thought they were in contention this year?
It’t not just down on Mac, it’s that since the draft it’s been clear this was a dumb idea, as clear as it was for the 49ers to trade up to draft this guy.
Since we drafted him the thread has not been decent, it’s been so rosy colored it’s obnoxious. Why is this guy getting such a long leash? He’s a rookie? Why wouldn’t Cam get the same for a year back from injury during Covid? How can you possibly say one is more likely an indicator of performance over the other? It’s an opinion at best.
And that’s the point, its all incomplete and small sample size and that’s exactly the reason why it was the wrong move to start Mac Jones unles you were sure he was a hit…and so far, since drive 1, he’s not.
Maybe he will be. Probably not.
Game 2. If I'd seen this thread earlier it would have been game 1.The only question is whether @elias is a game 1 or game 2 BABIP sacrifice
It is incredible that a few people joking around in a thread, trying to make each other laugh, will have "management" flying in off the top rope to be like, "Stop having fun you guys and gals, this is a no fun allowed zone. If you're looking to joke, take it to www.jokesandlaughter.com."Who the fuck is this guy, and why are we letting him drag an otherwise decent thread down a rabbit hole?
Probably true, but there is a level of QB talent where a guy is going to be signed if he is available, and Cam is quite clearly below that line.Cam doesn't have a job now because there isn't anywhere that is looking for a starter, and he's a rough fit as a backup, not because he wouldn't be better than a lot of rostered QBs. (also he's unvaccinated which is an issue in a backup QB).
Your assertion is that Cam is too good and that is why he isn’t on an NFL team?So this is getting way off track, and Elias is way out there but....
There is also a whole lot of revisionist history going on with Cam. The idea that Mac clearly beat him out and that was what everyone reported in camp is definitely not true. They were in a tight battle, and they went with Mac for a variety of reasons (Mac is a high cost rookie, Cam is an aging vet who didn't decisively win, Mac is a better fit for the offense Josh prefers to run, etc.). Most of the camp reports were that it was tight, and their pre-season performances were not too dissimilar (and Cam started all of them), plenty of people with good insight on the team thought Cam would be the week 1 starter.
Cam doesn't have a job now because there isn't anywhere that is looking for a starter, and he's a rough fit as a backup, not because he wouldn't be better than a lot of rostered QBs. (also he's unvaccinated which is an issue in a backup QB).
Thank you!Game 2. If I'd seen this thread earlier it would have been game 1.
No, my assertion is that Cam is a unique skillset guy who because of the need to build a particular offense to utilize him, and his history and personality is a bad fit as a backup.Your assertion is that Cam is too good and that is why he isn’t on an NFL team?
People on this very website were begging for Cam to be cut because he cannot throw the football with accuracy or consistency. I don’t see any revisionist history going on.
I think that was far more because no one ever thought they would cut Cam as opposed to not watching Mac play better in the preseason games.No, my assertion is that Cam is a unique skillset guy who because of the need to build a particular offense to utilize him, and his history and personality is a bad fit as a backup.
And this site is full of crazy shit, the opinions of this site is not what is revisionist history, the people who cover the team like Lazar and Howe thought Cam was likely to start, the idea that it was a foregone conclusion because Mac so badly outperformed him is revisionist history. Honestly even on this site, go check out the Pre-season QB thread, even there the majority of posts going into cutdown day thought he was going to be the Week 1 starter.
Personally I thought Mac slightly out played Cam, I wanted Mac to start but thought Bill wouldn’t do it and I thought Cam would be the Week 1 starter. Mac didn’t vastly outperform him in the stats but I didn’t see any reason if they were even close to run another season of Newton and that’s outside of his vaccination status at the time.No, my assertion is that Cam is a unique skillset guy who because of the need to build a particular offense to utilize him, and his history and personality is a bad fit as a backup.
And this site is full of crazy shit, the opinions of this site is not what is revisionist history, the people who cover the team like Lazar and Howe thought Cam was likely to start, the idea that it was a foregone conclusion because Mac so badly outperformed him is revisionist history. Honestly even on this site, go check out the Pre-season QB thread, even there the majority of posts going into cutdown day thought he was going to be the Week 1 starter.
How true is this, really? He's certainly not a pocket QB, so the Pats offense in 2019 and 2021 would not have been a fit for him. But the Pats made adjustments for him in 2020, and there are probably several teams that have more Cam-friendly stuff in their offenses than the Pats did.No, my assertion is that Cam is a unique skillset guy who because of the need to build a particular offense to utilize him, and his history and personality is a bad fit as a backup.
Everyone though Cam was going to start, but mostly by default. He didn't get a lot of preseason time and didn't do a lot to help (or hurt) his cause in that time. The fact that he didn't play much suggested that it wasn't an even competition. Most people assumed that what that meant was Cam was going to start and was just getting some time to tune up in the preseason.And this site is full of crazy shit, the opinions of this site is not what is revisionist history, the people who cover the team like Lazar and Howe thought Cam was likely to start, the idea that it was a foregone conclusion because Mac so badly outperformed him is revisionist history. Honestly even on this site, go check out the Pre-season QB thread, even there the majority of posts going into cutdown day thought he was going to be the Week 1 starter.
I think other teams have more stuff, and some teams are built to do what Cam does well, but others aren't, some teams Cam is a decent scheme fit, but not locker room. Now that he's vaccinated I think the chances he takes a backup job increase.How true is this, really? He's certainly not a pocket QB, so the Pats offense in 2019 and 2021 would not have been a fit for him. But the Pats made adjustments for him in 2020, and there are probably several teams that have more Cam-friendly stuff in their offenses than the Pats did.
Everyone though Cam was going to start, but mostly by default. He didn't get a lot of preseason time and didn't do a lot to help (or hurt) his cause in that time. The fact that he didn't play much suggested that it wasn't an even competition. Most people assumed that what that meant was Cam was going to start and was just getting some time to tune up in the preseason.
What actually turned out to be the case (IMO) was that Mac was the only QB competing for a job this preseason. He could win it (and start) or not win it (in which case Cam would start).
There seems to be an expectation among some that what you see is what you get with Mac, unlike the other 4, which I don't buy.I get why it happens. Same reason people are taking Mac being the best of the 4 rookies (who are all including Mac in the bottom 3rd of the league) through 4-5 games and declaring the QB situation settled long term... it's fun and exciting to think you have a franchise QB, even if the jury is very much still out on that, and his being okay so far leads people to say "oh yeah he was so much better than Cam in camp" because... Cam isn't a top starter, he's a bottom of the league starter (as he was last year).
Mac is very much a work in progress.. he's shown some good things, he's struggled with some things. We probably won't really know what we have for at least another year, barring a massive breakout. He's not a Herbert or Kyler type who has both elite tools and good performance. He's had solid to good performance, but some tools questions. He could be Kirk Cousins, he could be Cody Kessler, too early to tell.
Yeah, I hope what you see isn't what you get, because that's a backup QB.There seems to be an expectation among some that what you see is what you get with Mac, unlike the other 4, which I don't buy.
My guy Pennington is the first that comes to mind. He had a decent arm in college but he had injuries as a proGiven that it’s been a long time since I’ve been this invested in watching every snap of a currently bad-to-mediocre quarterback, I’m really blanking - who in the last 5-10 years would be a good example of an above average decision making QB who sucked in action because of their physical tools? Not counting end of career Peyton** I feel like those guys are pretty rare, which admittedly is most likely an indictment of my attention or Mac’s ceiling. I really can’t think of too many NFL qb’s that feel like a good analog for Mac’s first 5 games. But my gut says there’s gotta be plenty.
**obligatory “I’m not saying Mac Jones has the defense reading talent of Peyton Manning” disclaimer
But he was a Pro Bowl type player until those injuries.My guy Pennington is the first that comes to mind. He had a decent arm in college but he had injuries as a pro
Cody Kessler, Sam Bradford, Brian Hoyer, AJ McCarron, Case Keenum, Matt Schaub, Matt Flynn, Kellen Moore etc. Basically guys who kick around the league as backups for a long time tend to be in the category of "reads the field pretty well, accurate on short stuff, doesn't have the arm for someone to commit to him as their starter. Now if you're ELITE at the mental side, you can be Drew Brees and throw nothing over 10 yards and still be good.Given that it’s been a long time since I’ve been this invested in watching every snap of a currently bad-to-mediocre quarterback, I’m really blanking - who in the last 5-10 years would be a good example of an above average decision making QB who sucked in action because of their physical tools? Not counting end of career Peyton** I feel like those guys are pretty rare, which admittedly is most likely an indictment of my attention or Mac’s ceiling. I really can’t think of too many NFL qb’s that feel like a good analog for Mac’s first 5 games. But my gut says there’s gotta be plenty.
**obligatory “I’m not saying Mac Jones has the QB brain of Peyton Manning” disclaimer
True. Not many guys go into BB house in a meaningful Christmastime game and give his D a beat down like thisBut he was a Pro Bowl type player until those injuries.
So, here is where I disagree with this line of thinking: on the non-physical aspects of playing QB, I think Mac is a rookie with a lot to learn, not a finished product or anything remotely close to one. He can do some things well enough, but he's made plenty of mistakes so far, has lots of room for improvement.Where a guy like Mac... he can get the ball out faster and read the field better, but he's always going to be immoble, and people wonder how much arm strength he can add. I think it's also that people look at past rookie QBs, and a lot more got better at reading the field and making decisions, than saw major physical improvements.
Nothing has really changed since the draft in some ways. Mac needs to be elite at reading defenses, decision making, accuracy and release time to be a top QB, some of the other guys just need to be good at those things, because they are very good or elite in terms of physical attributes.
Sam Bradford? Teddy Bridgewater? Just as long as we're setting the bar at reasonably recent high draft picks, otherwise there are tons of those guys.Given that it’s been a long time since I’ve been this invested in watching every snap of a currently bad-to-mediocre quarterback, I’m really blanking - who in the last 5-10 years would be a good example of an above average decision making QB who sucked in action because of their physical tools? Not counting end of career Peyton** I feel like those guys are pretty rare, which admittedly is most likely an indictment of my attention or Mac’s ceiling. I really can’t think of too many NFL qb’s that feel like a good analog for Mac’s first 5 games. But my gut says there’s gotta be plenty.
**obligatory “I’m not saying Mac Jones has the defense reading talent of Peyton Manning” disclaimer
Oh I think he can improve a lot, I just think he likely has a physical ceiling that means he has to be better at those things than someone who is a good runner, or can flick a backfoot throw 45 yards. Like Lamar Jackson doesn't have to be elite at anything passing-wise to be an MVP candidate, because he's a terror with his running ability.So, here is where I disagree with this line of thinking: on the non-physical aspects of playing QB, I think Mac is a rookie with a lot to learn, not a finished product or anything remotely close to one. He can do some things well enough, but he's made plenty of mistakes so far.
Also, plenty of room for improvement with mechanics, etc. A lot of his bad throws have been off his back foot, etc.
Also, I think 'immobile' is a bI tof an exaggeration. To my eye he runs better than Brady or Bledsoe did. Also can throw accurately on the move.
Someone in this league would be very happy with and figure out how to use 1995 Drew Bledsoe. Jesus man, you are hardly allowed to touch the QB in the pocket now.Oh I think he can improve a lot, I just think he likely has a physical ceiling that means he has to be better at those things than someone who is a good runner, or can flick a backfoot throw 45 yards. Like Lamar Jackson doesn't have to be elite at anything passing-wise to be an MVP candidate, because he's a terror with his running ability.
I mean, Brady has no mobility, he makes up for it by being an all-time great in a number of other areas. Bledsoe played in the stone-age when everyone on the defense was nowhere near the speed they are now. You drop Bledsoe for 1995 into a game today he gets obliterated. Mac is immobile in the sense that he will likely never be able to consistently make plays with his legs. There are some degrees, but Mac is going to be closer to the Brady tier than the competent scrambler tier. Now like Brady he can make up for that with good reads, pre-snap identification, quick release, etc, but it just means he has less margin for error.
That's not a nitpick. He made a few nice throws while on the move and some frigging doozies. Best you can say about his throwing on the run is that results are mixed.Not to nitpick but he isn’t accurate on the move consistently. Right now half the time his mechanics get out of whack and the ball dies.
Mac's weakness right now isnt his physical tools, it's really about his willingness and ability to complete the intermediate/deep throws.Given that it’s been a long time since I’ve been this invested in watching every snap of a currently bad-to-mediocre quarterback, I’m really blanking - who in the last 5-10 years would be a good example of an above average decision making QB who sucked in action because of their physical tools? Not counting end of career Peyton** I feel like those guys are pretty rare, which admittedly is most likely an indictment of my attention or Mac’s ceiling. I really can’t think of too many NFL qb’s that feel like a good analog for Mac’s first 5 games. But my gut says there’s gotta be plenty.
**obligatory “I’m not saying Mac Jones has the defense reading talent of Peyton Manning” disclaimer
Yeah, Pennington is still #32 all-time for career adjusted net yards/attempt, #23 for passer rating. He retired at #1 in completion % (currently #7).But he was a Pro Bowl type player until those injuries.
I think he was mediocre by the end of his career and it was purely because of his arm betraying himYeah, Pennington is still #32 all-time for career adjusted net yards/attempt, #23 for passer rating. He retired at #1 in completion % (currently #7).
Those stats are the most sympathetic to him, for sure. But if you consider him mediocre-to-bad, you may have been spoiled by Brady.
Where on your body do you have your Chad Pennington tattoo? Did you go just his number? Photorealistic portrait? Throwing motion upper (waist up of Pennington)? Or full figure Pennington?I think he was mediocre by the end of his career and it was purely because of his arm betraying him
edit: and I probably just wanted to talk about Chad Pennington
This is absolutely right. He's made a few great throws on the run and a lot of lousy ones. To me, the poor throws are an indication that he has a lot of work to do on his mechanics. The great ones suggest that if he does it will pay off in better performance.Not to nitpick but he isn’t accurate on the move consistently. Right now half the time his mechanics get out of whack and the ball dies.
That’s an interesting thought. Here’s another:What actually turned out to be the case (IMO) was that Mac was the only QB competing for a job this preseason. He could win it (and start) or not win it (in which case Cam would start).
I doubt that. I think they went and got Cam because they didn't see Stidham as ready.That’s an interesting thought. Here’s another:
What if this was the plan in 2020 as well and Stidham just didn’t outplay Newton?
Just wanted to come back to this to point out that Geno Smith hasn't started a game in 4 years. And Cam is still on the street.Geno Smith is... decent?
The advantage for Smith is that he's been on the Seahawks roster since 2019 and so has familiarity with the system, playbook, etc. It's probably a wash between him and Cam at this point for that reason, and since Smith is already there, he gets the nod.Just wanted to come back to this to point out that Geno Smith hasn't started a game in 4 years. And Cam is still on the street.
I think "mobility" is too broad a term. The mobility of guys like Brady and Marino was to be able to shift a few feet to the left or right to give themselves a half second more time to step up -- into a clear spot -- and throw. Right now, it looks like Jones is only stepping directly forward which may not always be the best direction to get his body into the throw on a particular play, which is something he really has to do. I think that experience and a less shitty O-line will help in this regard. The announcers' phrase "sense where the pressure is coming from" (or anticipate where it *will* be coming from )comes to mind here.I still don't get the talk about how you need mobility to evade rushers when we have pretty solid evidence that mobile QBs run into pressure at a higher rate than they avoid it through athleticism. The only mobile QB to consistently have great sack rates is Mahomes, and by now we can all agree sacks and pressures over a large enough sample size are QB driven, right? If you look at the QBs that historically haven't been touched by defenders, it's all pocket guys. Mac has more than enough athleticism to succeed as an NFL QB, the arm worries me a whole lot more. I think he can't afford to be late on throws right now and I fear that realization may lead him to stop trying tight windows.
UDFA, first overall pick bust, UDFA, 5th round pick,. UDFA, 3rd round pick, 7th round pick, UDFA.Cody Kessler, Sam Bradford, Brian Hoyer, AJ McCarron, Case Keenum, Matt Schaub, Matt Flynn, Kellen Moore
Then again they were also ok going forward with Jimmy in lieu of Brady and I don't think Garoppolo is the kind of guy you can consistently win with if he's not surrounded with great talent. Is Mac's skillset distinctly different/better than Jimmy's?UDFA, first overall pick bust, UDFA, 5th round pick,. UDFA, 3rd round pick, 7th round pick, UDFA.
So, the list of 8 QBs you rattled off as comps for Mac Jones included one very high profile first round bust but was otherwise mostly UDFAs (4) and low draft picks.
It includes only 2 guys who got significant playing time as rookies, only one of whom (Bradford) won the job in camp. The other, Kessler, was the third person his team started at QB that year.
It includes 4 guys who started a total of 25 games in their whole careers, only one of whom is still active but got only 4 starts in 6 years coming into this season.
It includes a guy, Hoyer, who was good enough to win the backup job behind Brady as a UDFA rookie, but who was never seen by the Patriots as a potential starter. After 3 years backing up Brady, the Patriots cut him to make room for the immortal Ryan Mallet, whom they later traded for a 7th to make room for an acqual QB of the future. Then they re-acquired Hoyer in 2017, then they cut him 2019 to make room for Jarrett Stidham before reacquiring him again last year, but also grabbing Cam Newton, who is not exactly a fit for BB's style. Despite the dissappointing 2020 season, Hoyer got only one start.
The only guy on this list who is a reasonable comp for Mac Jones (someone who was highly drafted and won the starting job in his first camp) is Bradford, and even he is a poor comp. He played 4 years with the Rams, started 49 games, and completed under 60% of his passes in that span. That's... not Mac Jones. Bradford was in the bottom half of the league in completition percentage where Mac is 5th.
Anyway, there's a lot different about Mac than all of those other guys, and if the Pats saw him as another Hoyer type they weren'y going to spend a 1st round pick on him and then cut Cam Newton to clear they way for him.
As poorly as Jimmy iseems to be thought of these days, he is 26-10 in 36 starts. He was 5-0 as a starter in 2017 on a team that went 1-10 with other starters, and 3-3 last year on a team that went 3-7 with other starters. I think Jimmy would maybe be a Patriot now had the 49ers stiuck to their (alleged) original plan and drafted Jones.Then again they were also ok going forward with Jimmy in lieu of Brady and I don't think Garoppolo is the kind of guy you can consistently win with if he's not surrounded with great talent. Is Mac's skillset distinctly different/better than Jimmy's?
Sure, and I think we'd be looking at a competitive team that with their current talent level would be no threat in the AFC. At least with Mac we have the hope he can ascend past that level (even if the chance he won't is likely higher than most of us would like to admit).As poorly as Jimmy iseems to be thought of these days, he is 26-10 in 36 starts. He was 5-0 as a starter in 2017 on a team that went 1-10 with other starters, and 3-3 last year on a team that went 3-7 with other starters. I think Jimmy would maybe be a Patriot now had the 49ers stiuck to their (alleged) original plan and drafted Jones.
I agree. But given all the buzz we heard about Stidham in the run up to last year as well as the fact that they effectively did the same thing a year later (having a young guy face a vet), it’s not an impossibility. And given how little we actually ever hear about the Patriots’ methods, you can’t entirely discount that they were giving Stidham a chance to compete for the job and he just didn’t perform in camp and that was pretty much that.I doubt that. I think they went and got Cam because they didn't see Stidham as ready.
I mean, the question is who are guys who had physical limitations that prevented them from being top QBs, not "who is a comp for Jones". I pointed out Bradford as a guy who had a weak arm and was known as accurate (later in his career his arm was worse, but he was very accurate) Overall though, draft placement is a bad way to compare QBs once they are in the league, QB evaluation is a far from perfect science, lots of guys drafted early bust (particularly outside the top 5), a decent number of mid to late round guys turn out as good or better. Mac Jones going 1st round has little bearing on his performance, just asThe only guy on this list who is a reasonable comp for Mac Jones (someone who was highly drafted and won the starting job in his first camp) is Bradford, and even he is a poor comp. He played 4 years with the Rams, started 49 games, and completed under 60% of his passes in that span. That's... not Mac Jones. Bradford was in the bottom half of the league in completition percentage where Mac is 5th.
Anyway, there's a lot different about Mac than all of those other guys, and if the Pats saw him as another Hoyer type they weren'y going to spend a 1st round pick on him and then cut Cam Newton to clear they way for him.