The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

rodderick

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I think the QB grades are generally pretty good, but I think TWT is the worst element, and one where they have a lot of inconsistency internally. I also think they give the benefit of the doubt some places and not others, it's human nature probably, that a QB you know is good gets BotD on borderline, but it's a flaw. I think PFF needs a better more consistent standard on TWT if they want to use it, as is it feels like a free for all. I just grabbed that video because it came up in someone's feed, but it's a thing I've been annoyed at for a while, they have no real standard that I can tell, and seem to routinely call actual turnovers, and dropped picks not-turnover worthy for dubious reasons.

Edit- and on Mac, that he only got credited with 2 TWT against HOU is insane, he had several more pretty clear ones. My issue is... they seem to not want to give TWT to QBs, but if we want to use it as a measurement of what it says it is they need to actually do that.
I think they should just change the nomenclature to "dropped interceptions" and be done with it. "Turnover worthy" takes you to the realm of "you know, possibly, maybe, if that guy wasn't there the defender could have made a play to pick that dangerous throw off".

If, for instance, a linebacker has to fully reach up into the air to get a single hand on a pass that falls incomplete, I wouldn't call that a dropped pick, but might call it turnover worthy.
 

lexrageorge

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The issue with a subjective stat like TWP is that because it's not a computed metric, the same subjective criteria needs to be applied to every QB play. And even in that case, there are going to be enough "gray area" plays that it's difficult for me to put a lot of trust into it.

I recall the outfit a few years ago that gave Brady a poor grade in the 2014 Super Bowl because they made their own obscure judgment that Brady did not deserve any credit for the completions but deserved all the blame for the poor plays.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think they should just change the nomenclature to "dropped interceptions" and be done with it. "Turnover worthy" takes you to the realm of "you know, possibly, maybe, if that guy wasn't there the defender could have made a play to pick that dangerous throw off".

If, for instance, a linebacker has to fully reach up into the air to get a single hand on a pass that falls incomplete, I wouldn't call that a dropped pick, but might call it turnover worthy.
If an LB has to highpoint a back corner throw to a TE and barely gets a fingernail on it, yeah there's no need to call that a TWT. But that's not really what we're talking about here. That throw by Brady was a probable INT without that (uncalled) OPI. A couple more Mac throws last weekend were into a crowd of bad guys and thankfully fell harmlessly to the ground.

If it should have been a turnover in normal circumstances but wasn't, that would be a good thing to know. But it seems that this isn't what TWT is telling us, based on this admittedly small set of examples.
 

elias

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@elias I'd like to address some of your post.

The Pats absolutely did not "do Cam dirty." Mac won the job fair and square in camp.
The idea that a rookie QB, 4th in his class, from an all star college team, can win a job from an icon former mvp after three preseason games facing backups in the covid era is some kind of new way of thinking that’s for sure.

Also, they said it was Cam’s job very clearly, and then used that stance to sign a ton of talent. Then, cut the guy without a regular season snap.

To quote Allen Iverson…”PRACTICE??!!”

It’s so incredibly shortsighted I can’t believe folks are arguing it as some kind of given…and imagine what this team would look like with last year’s receiving corp and defense (or worse if players left without Cam in the QB room)…yikes…

It’s shocking to me the way this guy is being talked about, and a testament to just how good a job Cam did at creating a new slate for future qb’s in NE.

Mac Jones stinks so far…his mistakes, shortcomings, health and mechanics are being glossed over in a way that Cam’s mistakes and mechanics were mortal sins even though he’d won an MVP with them…and Mac all the while is benefiting from Cam’s icon status that led to the team being even as good talent wise as it is this year. We have no idea if Cam would have been able to make a run with this team.

I think cutting him destabilized the whole season and took the wind out of this team before they even set sail. Everyone is underperforming. It has turned out to be a very bad decision. Barely beating the texans and somehow “he looked good” is a review he gets.

Cam had to come in and replace the greatest quarterback of all time with short notice in an injury recovery year, and one of the toughest years to play sports in modern history. And he did it courageously, won media man of the year, kept them competitive to the end of the season, and blessed the franchise with his icon status as an incredible bridge from the Brady era to something else, giving people someone fun and uniquely talented to cheer for.

Using Cam for all that and then dumping him without honestly getting an opportunity to play with the team his gravity helped create…or sign with another team with a whole preseason to get acquainted and really make his comeback from injury…so wrong.

If they had said, “hey Cam, we are gonna draft a rookie, and we might let him win the job from you in training camp.” Then fine…but that’s not the case. Bill Belichik went out of his way to say the job was Cam’s, which being said publicly by him was such a change of pace that unless something else was communicated to Cam behind closed doors…just so so so so wrong.

And when you listen to Mac talk or watch him react to things on the field, he shows no confidence, and brings no joy or inspiration…how anyone roots for him is some real kind of cognitive dissonance to me. He’s a dud of a character so far who is the prime example of a beneficiary of being at Alabama.

I don’t feel bad for Cam Newton, he’s having a wonderful life…but to say the pats paid him 7M, and last year he wasn’t good, as a way of proving they didn’t do him wrong…I don’t see how that stacks up to the obvious and yet mostly unsaid points I’m raising here.
 

DJnVa

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It’s so incredibly shortsighted I can’t believe folks are arguing it as some kind of given
No one said it was a "given".


Mac Jones stinks so far…his mistakes, shortcomings, health and mechanics are being glossed over in a wayr he wasn’t good, as a way of proving they didn’t do him wrong…I don’t see how that stacks up to the obvious and yet mostly unsaid points I’m raising here.
He stinks? JFC.
 

tims4wins

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LOL. Icon former MVP? If the Pats has signed Peyton should he have started? Because both he and Newton were last good around the same time.
 

Jungleland

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I love Cam, and in a universe where he wanted to be here as a backup and wasn't afforded that chance I'd give some credit to the idea that he got a raw deal, but nearly every single thing in that post is nonsense. Outside of Agholor, every offensive signing better fits the throws Mac can make right now than the throws Cam was able to consistently make last year. And while Mac hasn't been great yet, his flaws all look coachable whereas there's not much that can be done for a shoulder that's not ever going back to what it was. Woof.
 

BaseballJones

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I'm curious what the "obvious and yet mostly unsaid points" are that he refers to at the end. Care to....*say* them?
 

radsoxfan

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Elias' post is from the year 2015. It's the only explanation.

Impossible he/she has seen Cam throw the ball the last few years, his shoulder is shot. He stunk in games and wasn't good in practice either. No reason to assume his arthritis will magically improve.

In a league desperate for QB play, the Patriots are the ONLY team to even give him a chance to start the last 2 years.
 

Ralphwiggum

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So does Cam not want to play football anymore, or is there another reason Cam Newton, iconic former MVP, isn't on an NFL roster right now?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Also, they said it was Cam’s job very clearly, and then used that stance to sign a ton of talent. Then, cut the guy without a regular season snap.
Not very clearly. Words like "he's our starter" were said but no specific commitments about the season were ever made.

I think cutting him destabilized the whole season and took the wind out of this team before they even set sail. Everyone is underperforming. It has turned out to be a very bad decision. Barely beating the texans and somehow “he looked good” is a review he gets.
What is missing from this take is even the slightest hint that Jones' teammates are down on him. Also, each of the 4 guys drafted ahead of him has obviously been much worse. One close game was lost due to a RB fumble. Another due to a MFG.

One other thing: Cam is currently unemployed. That's not a thing that happens to an NFL-capable QB who suddenly finds himself out of a job, unless he had a practice of kneeling during the National Anthem.
 

Big McCorkle

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Given how busy I am today, to the degree that I shouldn't be browsing here at all, I want to express my appreciation for the fact that that post meets the threshold of 'too dumb to engage with' so I can move on and just do what I have to do.
 

Bowhemian

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At least he is consistent.

If Cam were having the exact same season Mac is, people would be losing it. The 19 in a row along with all the passing stats would be unilaterally poo poo’d as the D giving it to him because he can’t do this or that…empty stat. More interceptions than touchdown passes by week 4 would have been the end of the leash for Cam. All the new weapons, all the money spent, and people would be pinning almost all of it on him as the reason why and they’d be furious.

We’d be seeing his unprecedented (worst football play I’ve ever seen) panic throw backwards from week 1 over and over…and it would be endlessly discussed as the first of several under pressure panic moves he’d made every game since.

Now, having to watch the media time and again discuss Mac Jones’ 4.0 intelligence is just further evidence of what I think at least part of the reason for all this is, but that is another topic for another thread…

I understand Bayless said it early so it made it trendy to slam it…but this team is 3-1 with Cam. Maybe his legs push the Pats over the edge in the last one in the rain like with Baltimore last year. They definitely don’t rush for -1 and they definitely don’t let their best player (Gilmore) go at this point of the season…and who really knows what Cam would have been looking like with all the plus factors he had to start this season vs. last.

Just an absolute bungle of a move starting this kid, and the consequences might extend beyond this one now punted season, depending on which degree of rose colored Jones glasses might happen if we are lucky.

Haven’t posted in over a decade, and maybe that’s an easy first poke back at me to not again…but the double standard was really sticking in my craw. The standard by which Mac Jones is being graded is different than Cam, and I don’t think “because he’s a rookie” is an adequate response.

This could end up being an NY Jets level move the same way it could be the next step in the dynasty. Right now my bet is on the former. I am unimpressed by the guy entirely, and his demeanor is a significant concern.
The idea that a rookie QB, 4th in his class, from an all star college team, can win a job from an icon former mvp after three preseason games facing backups in the covid era is some kind of new way of thinking that’s for sure.

Also, they said it was Cam’s job very clearly, and then used that stance to sign a ton of talent. Then, cut the guy without a regular season snap.

To quote Allen Iverson…”PRACTICE??!!”

It’s so incredibly shortsighted I can’t believe folks are arguing it as some kind of given…and imagine what this team would look like with last year’s receiving corp and defense (or worse if players left without Cam in the QB room)…yikes…

It’s shocking to me the way this guy is being talked about, and a testament to just how good a job Cam did at creating a new slate for future qb’s in NE.

Mac Jones stinks so far…his mistakes, shortcomings, health and mechanics are being glossed over in a way that Cam’s mistakes and mechanics were mortal sins even though he’d won an MVP with them…and Mac all the while is benefiting from Cam’s icon status that led to the team being even as good talent wise as it is this year. We have no idea if Cam would have been able to make a run with this team.

I think cutting him destabilized the whole season and took the wind out of this team before they even set sail. Everyone is underperforming. It has turned out to be a very bad decision. Barely beating the texans and somehow “he looked good” is a review he gets.

Cam had to come in and replace the greatest quarterback of all time with short notice in an injury recovery year, and one of the toughest years to play sports in modern history. And he did it courageously, won media man of the year, kept them competitive to the end of the season, and blessed the franchise with his icon status as an incredible bridge from the Brady era to something else, giving people someone fun and uniquely talented to cheer for.

Using Cam for all that and then dumping him without honestly getting an opportunity to play with the team his gravity helped create…or sign with another team with a whole preseason to get acquainted and really make his comeback from injury…so wrong.

If they had said, “hey Cam, we are gonna draft a rookie, and we might let him win the job from you in training camp.” Then fine…but that’s not the case. Bill Belichik went out of his way to say the job was Cam’s, which being said publicly by him was such a change of pace that unless something else was communicated to Cam behind closed doors…just so so so so wrong.

And when you listen to Mac talk or watch him react to things on the field, he shows no confidence, and brings no joy or inspiration…how anyone roots for him is some real kind of cognitive dissonance to me. He’s a dud of a character so far who is the prime example of a beneficiary of being at Alabama.

I don’t feel bad for Cam Newton, he’s having a wonderful life…but to say the pats paid him 7M, and last year he wasn’t good, as a way of proving they didn’t do him wrong…I don’t see how that stacks up to the obvious and yet mostly unsaid points I’m raising here.
 

RedOctober3829

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The idea that a rookie QB, 4th in his class, from an all star college team, can win a job from an icon former mvp after three preseason games facing backups in the covid era is some kind of new way of thinking that’s for sure.

Also, they said it was Cam’s job very clearly, and then used that stance to sign a ton of talent. Then, cut the guy without a regular season snap.

To quote Allen Iverson…”PRACTICE??!!”

It’s so incredibly shortsighted I can’t believe folks are arguing it as some kind of given…and imagine what this team would look like with last year’s receiving corp and defense (or worse if players left without Cam in the QB room)…yikes…

It’s shocking to me the way this guy is being talked about, and a testament to just how good a job Cam did at creating a new slate for future qb’s in NE.

Mac Jones stinks so far…his mistakes, shortcomings, health and mechanics are being glossed over in a way that Cam’s mistakes and mechanics were mortal sins even though he’d won an MVP with them…and Mac all the while is benefiting from Cam’s icon status that led to the team being even as good talent wise as it is this year. We have no idea if Cam would have been able to make a run with this team.

I think cutting him destabilized the whole season and took the wind out of this team before they even set sail. Everyone is underperforming. It has turned out to be a very bad decision. Barely beating the texans and somehow “he looked good” is a review he gets.

Cam had to come in and replace the greatest quarterback of all time with short notice in an injury recovery year, and one of the toughest years to play sports in modern history. And he did it courageously, won media man of the year, kept them competitive to the end of the season, and blessed the franchise with his icon status as an incredible bridge from the Brady era to something else, giving people someone fun and uniquely talented to cheer for.

Using Cam for all that and then dumping him without honestly getting an opportunity to play with the team his gravity helped create…or sign with another team with a whole preseason to get acquainted and really make his comeback from injury…so wrong.

If they had said, “hey Cam, we are gonna draft a rookie, and we might let him win the job from you in training camp.” Then fine…but that’s not the case. Bill Belichik went out of his way to say the job was Cam’s, which being said publicly by him was such a change of pace that unless something else was communicated to Cam behind closed doors…just so so so so wrong.

And when you listen to Mac talk or watch him react to things on the field, he shows no confidence, and brings no joy or inspiration…how anyone roots for him is some real kind of cognitive dissonance to me. He’s a dud of a character so far who is the prime example of a beneficiary of being at Alabama.

I don’t feel bad for Cam Newton, he’s having a wonderful life…but to say the pats paid him 7M, and last year he wasn’t good, as a way of proving they didn’t do him wrong…I don’t see how that stacks up to the obvious and yet mostly unsaid points I’m raising here.
--Rookie 4th in his class that is outplaying every other rookie QB.
--Bill Belichick said it was Cam's job until someone outplayed him. Mac Jones clearly outplayed him all preseason long. Anyone with a brain that was at TC practices and watched the games could see that Jones is a superior fit for this offense than Cam.
--Mac Jones does not in fact stink. He is 5th in the NFL in completion percentage, middle of the road in yards per game, and yes he is in the bottom 3rd of the league in QBR and rating. But as a rookie, he is in fact going to get better.
--Cutting him did not destabilize the season. What games did the Pats lose that Cam would have won for them?
--It did not take the wind out of anyone's sails.

This is a direct quote from Kendrick Bourne after the Tampa game
“He’s ready for everything that’s coming his way and he’s improving in that direction,” receiver Kendrick Bourne said. “You know, football is football. You don’t know how it’s going to go, but the way he’s handling the situations like this, playing the Jets or whoever it may be, he’s the same quarterback, the same kind of mindset. And he looks like a baby Tom [Brady]. Like, that’s what’s my opinion is. So it’s just good to see his growth and hopefully he continues to grow that way.”

David Andrews after the Houston game:
“Number 10, man, he’s a tough son of a gun. Hats off to him,” he said.
“Quarterbacks — toughness maybe isn’t on display. They’re not going around hitting people, right? But, the kid stands in there, he makes throws, he takes hits. He’s never negative, especially for some of our performances here of late. He stands in there, he’s positive, he’s ready to go. He has our back, and you get to play for a guy like that that’s a great opportunity. He shows a lot of poise for a guy like that.”

Hunter Henry after the Houston game
“He’s tough,” Henry said of the 23-year-old. “He stands in there. It says a lot to the older guys, guys that have been around, to be that young and stand in there and fire the ball, it gives a lot of confidence to the receivers, tight ends and to the offensive lineman, too. He’s doing a tremendous job.”

Matthew Slater to the team after the Houston game
“Young fella, great toughness, man. Great toughness,” Slater told Jones. “Appreciate you.”

--Cam should be grateful that the Patriots signed him. Literally nobody gave him a contract offer last summer.

--How did he not get a chance to compete for the job? He had 1st team reps the entire preseason and played with the 1st team OL. He did not play as well as Mac Jones and that's why he's not here. How surprising should it be if a 1st round QB outplays a veteran that the 1st rounder gets the edge?

--Should Andy Dalton feel as offended now that Matt Nagy named Justin Fields the starter? I mean what are we doing here?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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As we all know here at SoSH, its nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from small sample sizes. The first five games of an NFL QBs career seems like an especially bad set of data to use for a variety of reasons but mostly because these people are learning on a job where trial by fire can literally hurt.

That said, when your population is almost 8,500 people, you will clearly get outliers. Some are pretty obvious.
 

bakahump

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Elias= Cams Burner account?

Seriously I cant even argue with that post its so off the mark.
 

Marciano490

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We really should welcome Cam to the board. He could provide some great insight.
Can we give him access to his favorite font? Seeing him post in this Times New Roman is like watching a bird with clipped wings try to fly.
 

elias

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--Rookie 4th in his class that is outplaying every other rookie QB.
--Bill Belichick said it was Cam's job until someone outplayed him. Mac Jones clearly outplayed him all preseason long. Anyone with a brain that was at TC practices and watched the games could see that Jones is a superior fit for this offense than Cam.
--Mac Jones does not in fact stink. He is 5th in the NFL in completion percentage, middle of the road in yards per game, and yes he is in the bottom 3rd of the league in QBR and rating. But as a rookie, he is in fact going to get better.
--Cutting him did not destabilize the season. What games did the Pats lose that Cam would have won for them?
--It did not take the wind out of anyone's sails.
I’ll reply to this post since the rest are reinforcing my point that the double standard on the two qb’s performance is profoundly obvious.

- Outplaying every rookie QB…they all stink so far.
- BB saying what he said is as clear saying he’s the starter as he has ever said…this is such a nitpick of language from a guy, on whose spectrum, the statement doesn't get clearer
- Repeating his completion percentage back is meaningless…he’s being given all that. He’s bottom 3rd is right. Why is it a given he gets better? If the team struggles, loses talent, and has a hard time recruiting new talent over the years…maybe this is his best season he’ll have…and by the same logic, there were plenty of factors indicating Cam could be better this year too. IMO better than bottom third…maybe not…but definitely the case with Mac.
- Definitely Miami, possibly New Orleans, and even Tampa in the rain, he beat Baltimore in the rain last year with a worse team
- Finding patriots players to make toe the line quotes…not hard

Jonnu Smith looks like a mess, Harris and the running game is shit, people have gotten hurt, and gilmore left…that’s all pretty destabilizing.

Kendrick Bourne comparing him to Tom Brady would be LAUGHED at by this board if it was on another board about their rookie looking like their greatest QB as declared by a new FA acquisition that had never played with said greatest…
 
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lexrageorge

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So people getting hurt and Gilmore leaving is a result of Jones was named the starting QB? Yeah, .... no.
 

BusRaker

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Moving on from Cam was almost as stupid and insulting as moving on from Bledsoe. Drew was our quarterback and you shouldn't lose your job to injury. Bill lost his team's respect for the next two decades from that move
 

BusRaker

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Moving on from Cam was almost as stupid and insulting as moving on from Bledsoe. Drew was our quarterback and you shouldn't lose your job to injury. Bill lost his team's respect for the next two decades from that move
Was SOSH BBTL (obviously not named that with 0 Lombardis) a thing in 2001? I didn't join until 2004 but would be entertained reading the Bledsoe versus Brady thread from back then
 

jsinger121

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I’ll reply to this post since the rest are reinforcing my point that the double standard on the two qb’s performance is profoundly obvious.

- Outplaying every rookie QB…they all stink so far.
- BB saying what he said is as clear saying he’s the starter as he has ever said…this is such a nitpick of language from a guy, on whose spectrum, the statement doesn't get clearer
- Repeating his completion percentage back is meaningless…he’s being given all that. He’s bottom 3rd is right.
- Definitely Miami, possibly New Orleans, and even Tampa in the rain, he beat Baltimore in the rain last year with a worse team
- Finding patriots players to make toe the line quotes…not hard

Jonnu Smith looks like a mess, Harris and the running game is shit, people have gotten hurt, and gilmore left…that’s all pretty destabilizing.

Kendrick Bourne comparing him to Tom Brady would be LAUGHED at by this board if it was on another board about their rookie looking like their greatest QB as declared by a new FA acquisition that had never played with said greatest…
Are you pissed you wasted money on a Cam Newton Patriots jersey that was only good for one season?
 

elias

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Moving on from Cam was almost as stupid and insulting as moving on from Bledsoe. Drew was our quarterback and you shouldn't lose your job to injury. Bill lost his team's respect for the next two decades from that move
I’d also be interested in that thread. However, Brady won regular season games that counted. For me that makes it much more tolerable.

And yeah, Gilmore leaving is a result of the record, doesn’t happen if they are 3-2, let alone 4-1, which IMO they are with Cam. That might be true or not…its definitely not true with Mac.

Injuries…obviously are not directly causal of the departure, but yes, playing like a team with a rookie qb who absolutely spazzed the first drive of his career that was looking like an easy scoring drive, and has subsequently had panic plays every game since…yeah that kind of atmosphere breeds problems.
 

johnmd20

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I’d also be interested in that thread. However, Brady won regular season games that counted. For me that makes it much more tolerable.

And yeah, Gilmore leaving is a result of the record, doesn’t happen if they are 3-2, let alone 4-1, which IMO they are with Cam. That might be true or not…its definitely not true with Mac.

Injuries…obviously are not directly causal of the departure, but yes, playing like a team with a rookie qb who absolutely spazzed the first drive of his career that was looking like an easy scoring drive, and has subsequently had panic plays every game since…yeah that kind of atmosphere breeds problems.
You're using words.

But none of them are aligned with reality.
 

SMU_Sox

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This is a thread with a lot of people doing fine work in it. Lots of good content here. Getting frustrated by the direction it has taken.
 

SMU_Sox

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Tom Brady didn’t win games?
Gilmore didn’t leave?
Crappy teams with guys trying to overcompensate don’t suffer more injuries?

Which of those is not real
This is the Mac Jones thread. None of those things are helping advance the discussion here.
 

elias

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This is the Mac Jones thread. None of those things are helping advance the discussion here.
How is the fact that Mac Jones being the QB having a losing record, relating to the loss of the best defensive player on the team, which will lead to more losses and looks like a punt on the season…not an important part of the discussion of his thread?

Isn’t the point of his thread to assess his impact on the team, at least in part? I know it’s so much fun talking about his completion percentage…after we just spent 20 years telling people, mocking people in fact because those kinds of cherry picked individual stats aren’t as important as w’s.

Look at the injury reports for the two teams this week…sure you can point to BB’s injury report gamesmanship…maybe that’s true here…but the Cowboys look a lot healthier and a lot “winnier”. Cowboys made the right decision with their QB, Pats didn’t. Mac Jones is the Pats QB so is it ok in his thread to compare him to his upcoming opponent?
 

tims4wins

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How is the fact that Mac Jones being the QB having a losing record, relating to the loss of the best defensive player on the team, which will lead to more losses and looks like a punt on the season…not an important part of the discussion of his thread?

Isn’t the point of his thread to assess his impact on the team, at least in part? I know it’s so much fun talking about his completion percentage…after we just spent 20 years telling people, mocking people in fact because those kinds of cherry picked individual stats aren’t as important as w’s.

Look at the injury reports for the two teams this week…sure you can point to BB’s injury report gamesmanship…maybe that’s true here…but the Cowboys look a lot healthier and a lot “winnier”. Cowboys made the right decision with their QB, Pats didn’t. Mac Jones is the Pats QB so is it ok in his thread to compare him to his upcoming opponent?
This is a great point, the Pats never had a lengthy injury report during the Brady years.
 

Cellar-Door

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So this is getting way off track, and Elias is way out there but....

There is also a whole lot of revisionist history going on with Cam. The idea that Mac clearly beat him out and that was what everyone reported in camp is definitely not true. They were in a tight battle, and they went with Mac for a variety of reasons (Mac is a high cost rookie, Cam is an aging vet who didn't decisively win, Mac is a better fit for the offense Josh prefers to run, etc.). Most of the camp reports were that it was tight, and their pre-season performances were not too dissimilar (and Cam started all of them), plenty of people with good insight on the team thought Cam would be the week 1 starter.

Cam doesn't have a job now because there isn't anywhere that is looking for a starter, and he's a rough fit as a backup, not because he wouldn't be better than a lot of rostered QBs. (also he's unvaccinated which is an issue in a backup QB).
 

tims4wins

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Jul 15, 2005
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So this is getting way off track, and Elias is way out there but....

There is also a whole lot of revisionist history going on with Cam. The idea that Mac clearly beat him out and that was what everyone reported in camp is definitely not true. They were in a tight battle, and they went with Mac for a variety of reasons (Mac is a high cost rookie, Cam is an aging vet who didn't decisively win, Mac is a better fit for the offense Josh prefers to run, etc.). Most of the camp reports were that it was tight, and their pre-season performances were not too dissimilar (and Cam started all of them), plenty of people with good insight on the team thought Cam would be the week 1 starter.

Cam doesn't have a job now because there isn't anywhere that is looking for a starter, and he's a rough fit as a backup, not because he wouldn't be better than a lot of rostered QBs. (also he's unvaccinated which is an issue in a backup QB).
The Seahawks are starting Geno Smith at QB on Sunday. Geno. Smith.

Edit: Cam of all people pointed this out, but while Cam got the “starter” reps, Mac got roughly 2x as many reps in total throughout the summer. It was almost as if the Pats were making it look like Cam was the starter while simultaneously preparing Mac to take over. There is no revisionist history going on here. Cam started the games and practices but Mac got the bulk of the reps.
 

elias

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Aug 22, 2006
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The Seahawks are starting Geno Smith at QB on Sunday. Geno. Smith.

Edit: Cam of all people pointed this out, but while Cam got the “starter” reps, Mac got roughly 2x as many reps in total throughout the summer. It was almost as if the Pats were making it look like Cam was the starter while simultaneously preparing Mac to take over. There is no revisionist history going on here. Cam started the games and practices but Mac got the bulk of the reps.
If I’m Cam I‘m waiting until later in the season or until next season to have a full offseason with a team, and then calling myself cooked if it still looks no good. Then spending the rest of my pst career split between that team and Carolina, honoring the Carolina fans and including the last team in my orbit.

Yes 6 preseason quarters and 500 practice reps mean that Mac Jones was better than Cam Newton…it’s preposterous actually, it’s more than revisionist history…it’s just bad football management. And the results of this season back it up.
 

tims4wins

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If I’m Cam I‘m waiting until later in the season or until next season to have a full offseason with a team, and then calling myself cooked if it still looks no good. Then spending the rest of my pst career split between that team and Carolina, honoring the Carolina fans and including the last team in my orbit.

Yes 6 preseason quarters and 500 practice reps mean that Mac Jones was better than Cam Newton…it’s preposterous actually, it’s more than revisionist history…it’s just bad football management. And the results of this season back it up.
Back in 2001 Belichick knew Brady was the better QB than Bledsoe in the preseason.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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The Seahawks are starting Geno Smith at QB on Sunday. Geno. Smith.

Edit: Cam of all people pointed this out, but while Cam got the “starter” reps, Mac got roughly 2x as many reps in total throughout the summer. It was almost as if the Pats were making it look like Cam was the starter while simultaneously preparing Mac to take over. There is no revisionist history going on here. Cam started the games and practices but Mac got the bulk of the reps.
Geno Smith is... decent? But more importantly, Cam hasn't shown any real interest in being a backup, and you don't sign Cam Newton to fill in for 3 games. If a QB goes down for the year, he might get a call. Cam is what he is, a low end starter who you have to tailor an offense to, he isn't a plug and play backup in skillset or personality. It's why the Patriots cut him even though he's clearly a lot better than Brian Hoyer. If Mac had blown out his knee week 1, Cam would have gotten a call.

Edit- I would expect the 1st round pick to get a lot of reps (and Cam was out for portions of camp), especially once Cam didn't blow them away. They wanted to go with Mac as long as Cam wasn't noticeably better, when it was a pretty even battle that shifted towards Mac because when you spend that draft capital on a QB, you only keep him on the bench for a significantly better option, and Cam wasn't.
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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If I’m Cam I‘m waiting until later in the season or until next season to have a full offseason with a team, and then calling myself cooked if it still looks no good. Then spending the rest of my pst career split between that team and Carolina, honoring the Carolina fans and including the last team in my orbit.

Yes 6 preseason quarters and 500 practice reps mean that Mac Jones was better than Cam Newton…it’s preposterous actually, it’s more than revisionist history…it’s just bad football management. And the results of this season back it up.
So you’re saying Cam looks no good and might be cooked.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The line not blocking? Damien Harris fumbling? Jonnu Smith having butterfingers? Gilmore wanting out?

All because they cut Cam.

I've fucking heard it all.
 

elias

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Aug 22, 2006
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So you’re saying Cam looks no good and might be cooked.
Yeah, I never said Cam was statistically good last year, or that there was no chance he would stink this year. I am arguing it was a catastrophic mistake not to make sure of that for all kinds of reasons. That should weigh in on Mac’s evaluation.

I do think it was an epic season for Cam filling in for Brady, and keeping them in the playoff hunt the whole year is one of the most impressive seasons in NE history…and I’m predicting much more impressive than Mac’s current season and likely career future, if not for probability alone. How much longer will the pats last in playoff contention this year…we’ll see I guess…and that’s with 150 million more in talent…

We are in near worst case scenario with Mac.

The worst case scenario with Cam is that we are right where we are now, and people are hopeful Mac can turn it around…Best case scenario with Cam is 5-0, and I’d say at least 3-2 with a chance gilmore is sticking around bolstering the defense and maybe Cam having a mini renaissance…let alone if he keeps progressing with the team and actually has a good year for him.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah, I never said Cam was statistically good last year, or that there was no chance he would stink this year. I am arguing it was a catastrophic mistake not to make sure of that for all kinds of reasons. That should weigh in on Mac’s evaluation.

I do think it was an epic season for Cam filling in for Brady, and keeping them in the playoff hunt the whole year is one of the most impressive seasons in NE history…and I’m predicting much more impressive than Mac’s current season and likely career future, if not for probability alone. How much longer will the pats last in playoff contention this year…we’ll see I guess…and that’s with 150 million more in talent…

We are in near worst case scenario with Mac.

The worst case scenario with Cam is that we are right where we are now, and people are hopeful Mac can turn it around…Best case scenario with Cam is 5-0, and I’d say at least 3-2 with a chance gilmore is sticking around bolstering the defense and maybe Cam having a mini renaissance…let alone if he keeps progressing with the team and actually has a good year for him.
You admit that Mac is the best of the rookie QBs… and this is worst case scenario? What if he was the worst of the first round rookie QBs?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Nov 17, 2010
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Yeah, I never said Cam was statistically good last year, or that there was no chance he would stink this year. I am arguing it was a catastrophic mistake not to make sure of that for all kinds of reasons. That should weigh in on Mac’s evaluation.

I do think it was an epic season for Cam filling in for Brady, and keeping them in the playoff hunt the whole year is one of the most impressive seasons in NE history…and I’m predicting much more impressive than Mac’s current season and likely career future, if not for probability alone. How much longer will the pats last in playoff contention this year…we’ll see I guess…and that’s with 150 million more in talent…

We are in near worst case scenario with Mac.

The worst case scenario with Cam is that we are right where we are now, and people are hopeful Mac can turn it around…Best case scenario with Cam is 5-0, and I’d say at least 3-2 with a chance gilmore is sticking around bolstering the defense and maybe Cam having a mini renaissance…let alone if he keeps progressing with the team and actually has a good year for him.
What the fuck are you talking about? Gilmore wanted another contract for the last 2 seasons. In what world does Cam Newton have any impact on him being traded?

Who the fuck is this guy, and why are we letting him drag an otherwise decent thread down a rabbit hole?

If you're down on Mac, fine. But Cam Newton cant throw a fucking football, and acting like he was the answer to anything but a missed playoff spot is asinine.
 

elias

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Aug 22, 2006
263
NY, NY
Who cares if he is the best of four lousy looking rookie Qb’s on losing teams?

How is it so hard to see the Pats offering Gilmore what he wanted if they thought they were in contention this year?

It’t not just down on Mac, it’s that since the draft it’s been clear this was a dumb idea, as clear as it was for the 49ers to trade up to draft this guy.

Since we drafted him the thread has not been decent, it’s been so rosy colored it’s obnoxious. Why is this guy getting such a long leash? He’s a rookie? Why wouldn’t Cam get the same for a year back from injury during Covid? How can you possibly say one is more likely an indicator of performance over the other? It’s an opinion at best.

And that’s the point, its all incomplete and small sample size and that’s exactly the reason why it was the wrong move to start Mac Jones unles you were sure he was a hit…and so far, since drive 1, he’s not.

Maybe he will be. Probably not.